I’ve written here (and elsewhere) about various forms of cyber racism, including what I’ve called ‘Facebook racism,’ at the popular social networking site. Now, there’s another form of racism online that’s worth noting: the racism that pours forth in the comments section of many news sources. Read a news story that in some way, either directly or very indirectly, touches on an issue related to ‘race,’ and then read the comments section. Almost without exception, the comments sections will be filled with overtly racist remarks from readers.
There’s a recent example of this at the Boston Globe. In a letter to the editor, a reader Heidi Pihl-Buckley, writes in to object to the racist comments posted on the Boston Globe site after an article about the murder of a college student. She writes:
AFTER READING an article on the fatal stabbing of Jasper Howard, the University of Connecticut football player, I clicked on the online section of readers’ comments. I was so saddened by the hatred and racism that clearly was behind the words people wrote. Talk about blaming the victim.
I am certain that most of the people writing these comments know nothing about this young man. They feel free to write such hateful words as “this is what happens when you take all these undeserving thugs and try to make the world a better place by filling our colleges with them’’ and “colleges are experiencing more diverse problems today.’’ Anyone reading these will see how apparent it is that race is still a huge issue for so many in this country. Another person wrote “get rid of affirmative action,’’ as if that was the cause of this tragic situation.
The story here is the human suffering that this murder has brought to the family and friends as well as every teammate of Jasper Howard. This young man and his team were on top of the world last Saturday evening after celebrating their win. A short time later, lives were forever changed by a senseless crime. If Howard were a white youth from Weston, would there have been the same comments?
Then, adding ironic insult to the original racist comments, the comments following Pihl-Buckley’s letter generate a similar kind of animosity. The anonymity offered by online spaces provides a kind of anonymity that allows whites to share the ‘backstage’ racism that Feagin & Picca point out in their book, Two-Faced Racism.
Hey,
Sadly, the same thing happens at this blog fairly often. For example, there were a ton on insanely racist responses to the Oscar grant post, many respondents justify racial profiling, people talking about the unnaturalness of interracial marriage, etc. I am not sure if it is just about anonymity though (I do think it helps). As Eduardo Bonilla-Silva points out in Racism Without Racists, most whites will voice similar sentiments if they are (very lightly) probed.
Important post, Jessie.
I’ve noted this phenomenon myself so many times. Some of the most disturbing examples I’ve seen are comments to youtube “cute baby” videos. (If I’m feeling down, these videos are an instant pick-me-up.) When the videos show black babies, horribly racist comments show up. What it must feel like to the parents who posted the video of their adorable child…
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And this type of thing refutes the thinking so common, even on this site, that “racism works both/all ways.” There’s just no other U.S. group that acts out this kind of sick pathology like whites do. No contest.
It’s not only the articles that touch on race, but also articles about religion, gender, and sexuality–anti Muslim, anti Jew, anti Catholic, anti woman, anti gay comments…you name it.
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If anyone thinks it’s bad at this site, you should check out the comments section at the Washington Post. Yikes. See especially the ‘On Faith’ section and any article regarding immigration, gay marriage, or President Obama. I had to stop reading them (the comments) because they were consuming me so much, they kept me up at night. YouTube comments are notoriously nauseating, too.
Too bad Whites just don’t have the stones to open about it anymore. One day…
As if to prove my point, Captain shows up with his usual approval of racism.
Note too that most of these comments are by deeply racist, sexist, homophobic white men…
Spot on, Jess. I try to stay away from comment sections, even on the supposedly ultra-liberal HuffPo. I’m not sure what’s written in coment sections when white men go on shooting rampages like one ex-student did at some school in the midwest. I do know, however, that is general, whenever a white person kills or is killed in a way that will attract media attention, nothing is said about race/gender/etc unless the person left a note detailing his hatred for [fill in the blank].
I just checked. After the shooting at Northern Ill, the first commenter to a post on NYTimes said if the guy had been anything other than white, there would’ve been a profile. Another commenter referenced the VaTech shooter to say that there is no profile. A couple more responed to Bob, the first commenter, by referencing the VaTech shooter to say that homicidal sickness is in everyone regardless of race. I think this proves the point even more. Most people talked about guns, not enough of too many. A few foreigners commented on the gun-crazed US. But nothing about educating homicidal “h*nkies” or anything like that.
I have often wondered what we can learn from the racism in the “comments” section below news stories. A couple of years ago, when I was doing a lot of online research of news stories on the immigration raids, I could not believe what I read in the comments section. For example: “Send the cockroaches home.” Nearly every story had comments along these lines.
Is it the anonymity? Are these just extremists? Who are these people? How widespread are these sentiments? And, who are the folks that seek out progressive sites to spew their hate? I am pretty sure that progressive folks are much less inclined to go to right-wing sites and post abusive comments.
I can’t believe that people including anyone on this site would talk about the death of someone and racist in the same sentence. I feel empathetic for anyone’s family that’s left behind to feel the pain of a loss. This persons family members will feel the pain of that loss for the rest of their lives.
Thanks for responding here, folks. Victor makes an excellent point about Eduardo’s work, it’s relevant here as well, of course. You could get a similar response from most whites, if pressed.
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Tanya raises a series of important questions: I do think that the kind of anonymity offered by the Internet is part of what gives rise to this phenomenon. People feel emboldened by it to say things they might otherwise keep to themselves. As for the other questions (Are these just extremists? Who are these people? How widespread are these sentiments? And, who are the folks that seek out progressive sites to spew their hate? I am pretty sure that progressive folks are much less inclined to go to right-wing sites and post abusive comments.), I don’t think we know the answers to these.
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I’m working on a small project now with a colleague to find a systematic way to study these questions.
@ Jessie and Tanya – What I wonder is how so many people can claim that racism isn’t as bad as whatever, that pocs are imagining things when someone can just go to any random sight and find these kinds of sentiments.
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@ MOM – Race is one of the first things that come to mind. Sorry. When I first here of a crime, it’s the very first thing that comes to mind. I worry about the impact these acts will have on race dynamics. Whether the country will see him as just another [fill in the blank] or as a human being. Will the media even acknowledge he went to UConn to get away from violence, not to spread it. Will anyone acknowledge that? Will it matter? I feel his family’s pain, don’t get me wrong. I hate funerals even when it’s a “home-going” service and everyone has a great time. [Unless I have a compelling reason, I actually avoid them whenever possible.] So please understand, I’m not being insensitive. But most black people I know always consider race, first, second, or third. We think about it.
@No1KState ~ That’s what I wonder, too. It seems that the denial of racism is something that unites both the left and the right in this country.
I did not intend to post here anymore, but I have a question to you Jessie and I hope you will answer.
Because of the topic of this post:
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-Do you think that how you/admin(s) handle the comment-section – does this make your comment-section a racist or an anti-racist place?
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– Do you consider your comment-section a place where the “white racial frame” remains intact or where it is dismantled?
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– Do you think this blog encourages whiteness and also elitism or not?
Hi @jwbe ~ you’ve raised these questions before and I’ve attempted to answer them, but here you go once more:
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-Do you think that how you/admin(s) handle the comment-section – does this make your comment-section a racist or an anti-racist place?
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I’d say that the way we handle the comments section eflects the fact that we’re engaged in a political and intellectual struggle here around racism in which the stated goal of this project is to “provide a credible and reliable source of information.” This information includes research about racism, and demonstrating that racism exists through news items, occasional comments by readers and whenever possible, highlighting efforts at antiracism. Overall, I’d like to think that the net result of our project at this blog is one which is antiracist. I assume you disagree.
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Do you consider your comment-section a place where the “white racial frame” remains intact or where it is dismantled?
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Again, I think the comments section here (as with the comments sections at blogs across the web) is a site of political contestation. In other words, comments sections are a particular kind of online space that is neither “purely” racist or antiracist. Instead, people – by posting their comments – are engaged in a kind of political struggle over racism. The struggle is in the comments.
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Do you think this blog encourages whiteness and also elitism or not?
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I’m not sure what you mean by ‘encourages whiteness,’ if you mean ‘reinforces a white racial frame,’ see my response above. As to the charge of elitism, along what lines? We’re a bunch of academics writing here – so I suspect that there is a kind of privileging of knowledge, the written word, and the ability to express oneself through writing. So, if that’s elitism, sure, we’re guilty of that. I don’t think that undermines the other (antiracist) goals of this project.
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My question for you @jwbe: Given the prevailing and steadfast notion that “racism is not an issue” here in the U.S., among the political left, right and center, how would you suggest going about struggling against this? You seem to object to the way we’re doing it here. What do you suggest instead?
Way to Go Jessie! What a Perfect Statement about the Goals and Ways to Achieve Them on this Site. {I just had to say that.}
Thanks @ellen.
>Again, I think the comments section here (as with the comments sections at blogs across the web) is a site of political contestation. In other words, comments sections are a particular kind of online space that is neither “purely” racist or antiracist. Instead, people – by posting their comments – are engaged in a kind of political struggle over racism. The struggle is in the comments.
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no, there is no politcal struggle over racism, racism wins, also because you, the academics sometimes or often don’t answer direct questions, and also because you approve direct insults directed at PoC and others who may not share your way of challenging racism. There are some posters with a racist mind-set who can disrupt every post, can personally insult, and in one case it was me who was more or less silenced by an author of your blog, while the person who wrote one personal insult after the next because of my nationality was more or less encouraged, “you are both on the same side”. No, we are not, but that a white American male defines the reality of a German white female and how I have to position myself is probably not be seen as problematic as well as the insults itself were not seen as problematic, which were full of stereotypes fyi.
I am not white American and when somebody is allowed to insult me based on my nationality and then I am more or less told that I should get over it or should feel some odd solidarity with such a person than there is definitely white American privilege at play.
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Already your comment-section would be a perfect place to display how white racial framing works, how creating hierarchy works and how places become racist places as a whole because of the framing regardless intentions. The sometimes subtle racism seems to be completely ignored.
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>As to the charge of elitism, along what lines? We’re a bunch of academics writing here – so I suspect that there is a kind of privileging of knowledge, the written word, and the ability to express oneself through writing. So, if that’s elitism, sure, we’re guilty of that. I don’t think that undermines the other (antiracist) goals of this project.
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no problems with your posts, I may not always agree but this is not the issue now. I don’t believe, that academics are automatically more articulate or do have the privilege of knowledge – this may be the positive stereotyping academics do for themselves but does not necessarily always reflect reality.
And also already who can succeed in a system of white supremacy should be studied, and with that I don’t only mean race. I am also talking about those most assimilated who are most likely to succeed in a system of white supremacy. On certain issues knowledge can be gained by many different ways.
Is Eurocentric education truly a way to explore and to dismantle white supremacy? I don’t think so. Because already how knowledge is gained or what is considered important etc is stuck in the ‘white racial frame’ or is at least quite possible.
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>My question for you @jwbe: Given the prevailing and steadfast notion that “racism is not an issue” here in the U.S., among the political left, right and center, how would you suggest going about struggling against this? You seem to object to the way we’re doing it here. What do you suggest instead?
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I don’t object your posts, but the comment-section and what it makes out of your blog as a whole.
Your comment section is not a place where honest and respectful exchange and sharing experiences and advancing anti-racism is possible. If you want to educate people, you once said the comment section is also for “educational purposes”, you should do or at least honestly assist in the educating when you approve subtle or not so subtle racist comments. Your readers are also your learners in many cases.
Blatant racists with zero intention to actually learn can dominate threads. Those who call themselves anti-racist but aren’t get much space and ‘hypocrisy as a way of [Eurocentric] life’, which is actually a serious problem within European culture (and therefore also American culture) remains unaddressed. As if it doesn’t exist.
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The first thing I suggest is that those whites who want to be anti-racist are actually able to create anti-racist places, blogs and organizations. Already there most fail.
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Anti-racist whites hardly study white people in all aspects of their culture, point of view and way of life, most often only related towards an alleged other. This is the problem I think. Nobody and most of all not whites are saints, nobody or almost nobody acts just because of ‘goodness’.
Both Yurugu and The Drama of the Gifted Child are very important books how whites within a European culture define themselves, form their own identity based on culture as well as psychology. Only when we can acknowledge that whites most likely also deny themselves and their true being (‘soul’) there can be an understanding why whites also do not only deny the reality of others (also other whites), but define the reality of others and don’t respect their right to live and the right of self-determination.
The goal of most white anti-racism is not self-determination of People of Color and therefore independence from whites, it is more about integration of ‘the other’ into white supremacy according existing norms, means the very culture and system remains intact with only superficial changes of ‘diversity’ and new possible white identities, like “anti-racist” which again needs an ‘other’, perfectly in accordance to our culture where there may be shifts of identity, but still dependend on ‘othering’. Thats the reason I think why there are so many white anti-racists who are just not honest.
So, I guess we’ll just hand over codes to the blog to you @jwbe since it sounds like you have a much better idea about how to administer it than we do. I’m curious, though, if what you write is true that….:
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“The goal of most white anti-racism is not self-determination of People of Color and therefore independence from whites, it is more about integration of ‘the other’ into white supremacy according existing norms, means the very culture and system remains intact with only superficial changes of ‘diversity’ and new possible white identities, like “anti-racist” which again needs an ‘other’, perfectly in accordance to our culture where there may be shifts of identity, but still dependend on ‘othering’. “
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…I wonder how you will get out of this dilemma when you administer this blog?
Speaking of cyber-racism (particularly on Facebook), did anyone catch that story about the racist picture of Obama on the RNC’s Facebook page? An RNC “fan” uploaded a picture of Obama eating fried chicken with the slogan, “Miscegenation Is a CRIME against American values… Repeal Loving v. Virginia.”
It was up for almost a week before somebody blew the whistle and the photo was taken down.
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/gops-facebook-photos/
Thanks, Jordan ~ I did see that and posted it on Twitter but hadn’t included it here yet.
I apologize for the comment and I understand your point, and I to, have lost many family members, and this is why the subject is very touching for me…Although, there are many, many, people that think of race first, there are just as many who may feel the same as I do about the loss of a person, or a least think, of a person, as a person. I HOPE. Thanks…:)
“The goal of most white anti-racism is not self-determination of People of Color and therefore independence from whites, it is more about integration of ‘the other’ into white supremacy according existing norms,”
This is a pregnant statement. When referring to an entity, if indeed that entity is not ‘the universe’ (by definition all that exists), then logically necessarily an ‘it-that’, or a ‘self-other’ distinction/dichotomy is implied. Recognition of one’s individuality, one’s ‘selfhood’ correspondingly implies the ‘otherness’ of other individuals whom are logically not self-same to one’s ‘self’. So, does one’s ‘self’, an individual person, have interests? Clearly, unless one wishes to embrace personal nihilism. Expanding on that, do groups also have group interests? I would contend that they do. Of course identifiable groups certainly act as if they do, now don’t they? These interests can be complementary or they can be competitive, common or contrary; from athletic teams competing for game wins to law firms competing for clients. No less extended kinship groups.
>I guess we’ll just hand over codes to the blog to you @jwbe since it sounds like you have a much better idea about how to administer it than we do.
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it’s not about having a better idea but about creating anti-racist places. But yes, I could be the only one with this expectation and therefore I could be the one disruptive to this blog. I was probably wrong with my expectation that this would be a blog where honest exchange about white supremacy and anti-racism, also anti-racist action, would be possible.
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>I’m curious, though, if what you write is true that….:
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Start studying white people from another perspective and you will know
you criticize online racism on facebook for example but the approved racism in your comment section does not count as online-racism, as it seems.
You for example also approved racist comments that included links to hate pages. You only silently removed these links after I complained. Why?
When you want to see a racist-free facebook and can highlight the racism going on on the comment sections of newspapers etc., why are you not willing to see the dynamics you allow in your own home?
So now you’re advocating “censorhip,” jwbe? That’s so strange, because I remember you COMPLAINING about “censorship” at other blogs . . .
Right, I got it @jwbe. We are doing more to set back the cause of antiracism than anyone else. Sorry to disappoint you. I really don’t understand why you’ve returned to commenting here if we are such a disappointment, but you’ve raised these questions (again) and I’m responding (again).
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you criticize online racism on facebook for example but the approved racism in your comment section does not count as online-racism, as it seems.
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No, you misunderstand my original post (and previous ones) about online racism. I never meant to imply that my critique of Facebook and newspaper comments sections did not apply here. If anything, I was illustrating that the “racism in comments” that appear here – somewhat predictably on a blog about racism – also appear elsewhere online. The reason for pointing this out is that the appearance of such comments runs counter to the prevailing notion here in the U.S. that “racism no longer exists,” or is something that only continues among a small, lunatic fringe of extremists.
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You for example also approved racist comments that included links to hate pages. You only silently removed these links after I complained. Why?
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Honestly, I missed the link in the comment when I approved it. It was a mistake. I deleted it when you pointed it out.
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When you want to see a racist-free facebook and can highlight the racism going on on the comment sections of newspapers etc., why are you not willing to see the dynamics you allow in your own home?
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Knowing how to handle racist comments is still a work-in-progress at this blog. I understand that you’re still upset about the way I/we handled the comments thread over the summer. And, for that I apologized to you both in email and I do so again here. However, to my mind there is something qualitatively different about allowing through occasional racist comments (I still delete far more than I let through) to illustrate the persistence of racism and to engage in widely held (if racist) beliefs within the context of a blog called “Racism Review,” in which the overall framework is about a political and intellectual struggle against racism, that stands in contrast to, say for example, advertisements for “ni**er jokes.com” built into the interface at Facebook.
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And, @jwbe: You still haven’t answered my question, though: if the prevailing belief in the U.S. from the political left, right and center is that “racism doesn’t exist,” how do you engage in a struggle against that?
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I do wonder if the context is so different from where you are in Germany to here in the U.S., if we’re not talking passed each other in significant ways most of the time. By that I mean, we here in the U.S. I feel are struggling most of the time to “demonstrate” that racism exists and that it is dangerous (especially in forms of speech). And, in Germany, where there have been hate speech laws on the books for many years, these points are all old news and no longer part of the debate.
jwbe said: ‘Is Eurocentric education truly a way to explore and to dismantle white supremacy? I don’t think so.’
>As a teacher of many minority students, I do take issue with this. I agree that the history textbooks are mostly Eurocentric, but they’re getting better at explaining the viewpoints of previously unmentioned minorities such as the Native Americans and African Americans. Black History Month has actually done a great deal of good to illuminate the egregious sins America has committed against black citizens. We still have a long way to go, but there’s hope.
> But would you really have us Just Not Teach at all? Just ignore the written word as a means of obtaining knowledge? One time I asked you if you’d read a great deal of history and you replied, ‘I refuse to read history written by white men.’ I understand this, but it’s a Start! Better some history than an absolute void.
>As I always tell my students, knowledge is power. How can you deny yourself this Easily obtained gift?
>You are Such an Extremist jwbe. It’s difficult to relate to you. If you did start your own blog, I think your extreme antagonism would turn people away. Why not offer solutions rather than Exclusively Trying to Dismantle the White Racial Frame?
>Sometimes I think your idea of a solution is to endlessly tell white people what total pieces of garbage they are. Would that include you? Tim Wise explained to you once that it was a mistake to lecture whites regarding good whites {that being yourself} versus bad whites { I assume that includes every other white on the planet excepting yourself}.
>Tim said, ‘We must take ownership for our own whiteness’. You have Never done this. Have you yourself ever committed a racist act {in speech or even thought}..even subconsciously and then reprimanded yourself later? I have. Do you have the Strength of Character to answer this honestly? Or are you the only Black white person on the planet? Reform begins with the Self jwbe.
“in speech or even thought”
Anti-racism is the transposition of a Christian vision of absolute original sinfulness and absolute redemption to a secular socio-psychodrama. The dyed-in-the-wool malefactor is European Man and the lamb of righteousness and vehicle for redemption for the former is the non-White; only by humbling himself before and serving the non-White can European Man hope to enter into the kingdom of the bliss of the perfect moral actor, after which the non-White will be reborn to power. Of course all that is rankest delusion.
Where my questions come in are why any type of hate is condoned here against anybody–okay, if used to “prove” racism still exists, then why not an explanation for why the hateful comments were allowed? If it’s true skinheads have been coming on this site, why allow an anti-racist German to get attacked and dis-credited? Are we all really that arrogant? Seriously? This is a person who has been kind enough to bend to Americans on this U.S. site by speaking English, engaging in critical dialogue and raising interesting questions, and bringing forth an outside perspective–a perspective that is much deeper than most of the most highly educated people I’ve met across these last many years–an independent thinker. Those attacks against jwbe had no commentary or explanation as to why they were let through. As well as other hate comments directed at others in the past. It’s almost a type of cyber bullying coupled with xenophobia and/or racism. I appreciate there was an apology.
No offense ellen, but I would not want any first generation children from Germany in your classroom. Any first generation children from any outside country for that matter–and children of color. Will just end my thoughts there because one, my further thoughts would likely be highly offensive of which my intention is to be honest and not offensive, and two, you and I do not see eye to eye at all on pretty much anything. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, I don’t appreciate the Holocaust being abused to “prove” how “good” people are or how “anti-racist” they are, yet spewing that same type of hatred and mindset towards another human. We as Americans have no room or right to do so when we as a nation have not come to terms with our own genocideS, slavery, etc. If we did, more than likely I wouldn’t be saying what I just wrote now…at least I’d like to imagine. One major difference between you and jwbe is that one denies the white supremacist truths of this nation but admits those associated with another nation, and the other admits the truths to both–and takes it beyond. One advocates assimilation into white supremacy and the other wishes to dismantle it. There’s many differences. Different socialization and lived experiences with different collective memories, it’s just the collective memory for the other is honest, tragic, traumatic, and much more. Might we forget there were also white Germans who were also victims as they stood against their own government and the atrocities? Let me stop there–that’s it because I am almost certain I will not be understood or heard.
Steve the Sailor, I understand this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kw2DF82VIk cannot be viewed in Germany. The exact reasoning is not clear, however. It was suggested it might be due to copyright issues too. But to what extent they take their censorship might be a good question? I could see how it could be argued both ways–depending on what the issue is being discussed.
Lurker de-cloaking …
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jwbe said: ‘Is Eurocentric education truly a way to explore and to dismantle white supremacy? I don’t think so.’
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I don’t think “they” can hear what you’re asking, jwbe.. I don’t think they can hear (understand) you at all.
There seems to be an insurmountable communication gap, and/or some other “thing” (ego maybe?) causing this apparent disconnect. My take is that you’re way TOO DEEP for some of the commenters here. Thus, you’re gonna have to handle them patiently, softly and gently – like newborn babies. Are you able and willing to do that?
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Good Luck!
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Millions of Whites give lip service to the PC line on race. In private, they don’t believe any of it. This is why the comment sections of online newspapers and magazines are always filled with “racist” comments.
>So now you’re advocating “censorhip,” jwbe? That’s so strange, because I remember you COMPLAINING about “censorship” at other blogs . . .
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no, but I understand that some or many Americans (as well as Germans) think about German hate-speech laws as censorship. While there is on average a widespread agreement that for example child-pornography in any form is not free speech and that children, the victims, should be protected, when it comes to racism there is a deep lack of understanding the importance of hate-speech laws.
Creating an anti-racist place is something different than censorship.
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>I really don’t understand why you’ve returned to commenting here if we are such a disappointment
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because you made ‘educating about racism’ your profession and you seem to be white people with quite a reputation. This also includes that you are likely to influence to a certain degree the ‘white anti-racist movement’. Not only in the US but for example also in Germany. The discourse in the US will influence the discourse in Germany and I don’t think that this is always a positive thing. While the US is in the position to isolate herself from the rest of the world, this outside world unfortunately isn’t in the position to do the same. Therefore that you at least would consider another perspective as valid would be something. I did not only learn from American white anti-racism, it also raised some questions and thoughts and some criticism.
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Your other question is based on a wrong assumption, your assumption is:
‘You seem to object to the way we’re doing it here. What do you suggest instead?’
I don’t completely object your writings/posts, but how you handle the comment-section. I don’t know how you act in real life and what your struggle is in real life.
But as it seems, the given dynamics in the comment-section are intended, and then yes, this is definitely the wrong blog for me because this is something I can find on every predominantly white message board.
@ Seattle Said:
‘One advocates assimilation into white supremacy and the other wishes to dismantle it.’
>That’s the rub Seattle..between you and I. I don’t believe giving children a solid education in All the Subjects and asking them to push themselves to excel will in any way hurt them. Gosh..where do I get my silly notions? To equate that with ‘you just want them assimilated into the white supremacy structure’ is just silly.
>Everybody All Over the Planet, from Bangladesh to Madagascar to Ethiopia to Kansas City to Marseille, France…wants their children to be Educated.
> Does everything relate to this white supremacy meme in your mind? If minority kids could get an education in Africa…fine. Taught by African teachers..fine. Please ask all the Latinos moving to America and all the Blacks in this country to move to Africa and thus be instructed by Black Educators and I’d Be Fine With That. What makes you think I wouldn’t?
>Is that your major beef? That minority kids are being taught by white teachers? Then they can go to Africa and become educated. As long as they Are Indeed educated, because they Need Some Skills to Survive.
> But…..Minorities don’t seem to want to go there however. Which leaves the issue that they must be educated in America, right? So, I’m the Bad Guy because I would like to see them possess the tools to Survive Anywhere on the Planet?
>Sure..I’m just a wicked White Supremacist trying to brainwash children into this screwed up white racist society. Education is not my intent..no..it’s much more sinister than that. Where do you get this stuff?
>You live in a dream world Seattle. And I wouldn’t want my children in one of your classrooms either. Why should children be Made to learn multiplication tables? Cruel. And the alphabet? That’s just a tool Western Civilization uses to inject them with propaganda. Let them play all day..and dream. Believe me, there are plenty of kids who do just that all day..in a marijuana high from dawn til dusk.
>And when they grow up not knowing how to read the letters on a Stop Sign or an Insurance Policy or a Bank Statement, what would you have us do Seattle?
>If you had One Child you wouldn’t think in these terms. I’m just guessing, but it’s a high probability you don’t have children because you have no concept of how kids think or how positive reinforcement of self-discipline and tenacity can benefit all children: from Ecuador to New Zealand to South Viet Nam to Nairobi to the Canary Islands..same meme Seattle..all parents want the Same Meme for their Kids. Sorry. But you are definitely outnumbered around the Globe.
> Fact is Seattle, you are reading this Right Now because someone took the time to educate you. You can add and calculate algebra equations cause someone cared enough about You to teach you these things. You know about ‘Skinnerian’ psychology because some professor was inspired to become a psych teacher and teach kids like you.
>Then you scoff at education and say stuff like, ‘Wanting to live in nice houses and eat nice meals is a white thing.’ To which I suggested you go to a third world country for 2 weeks and live in a cardboard box with raw sewage outside your ‘residence’ and bugs crawling all over your legs and see if living in a nice house with decent food is something that only white people want.
>People who sneer at living in nice houses with nice meals, who sneer at education as if it’s an unecessary amendment to an otherwise idyllic existence…have always lived in nice houses, eaten nice meals, and been given their education on a silver platter.
Seattle Said Regarding jwbe:
> ‘This is a person who has been kind enough to bend to Americans on this U.S. site by speaking English, engaging in critical dialogue and raising interesting questions, and bringing forth an outside perspective–a perspective that is much deeper than most of the most highly educated people I’ve met across these last many years–an independent thinker’.
>As I recall, jwbe has as feisty a little temper as anyone else. You’re painting her like this delicate little flower, ‘bending’ to Americans? She was the one long ago who stated {paraphrasing here} that White Americans Must Stand Up Against Racism. Then when I and several other anti-racists whites joined this site, she shrieked at us {these are Exact Words}, ‘Good intentions are not enough!’
>So jwbe, an expatriot of Germany gets to tell anti-racist Americans who can join the Anti-Racist club and who just won’t cut the mustard? You don’t call her behavior Arrogant? When I asked her where she was educated she stated, ‘I don’t read history! It’s all written by white supremacists!’
>C’mon, get real. jwbe is perfectly capable of defending herself and is {way beyond self defense} extremely aggressive when it comes to pushing her own ‘Independent Thinking’.
> First she calls Americans to action, then she tells them to go to hell cause they’re not good enough. Yeah..she’s independent alright. Lots of anger there. ‘You vil do vat I say or you pay schwine!’ Sorry, but that’s how she comes across.
@ Mom – There’s no need for you to apologize.
It’s interesting that when discussing the dismantling of racism, white supremacists seem to think we’re asking for a reversal of fortunes. Is this really what people think, fear that we’ll do to whites what whites have done to us? Or is this just another example of exaggerating the requests of anti-racists in order to delegitimize anti-racism? What is it?
@Just me,
>Are you able and willing to do that?
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Even the Berlin Wall did fall one day, there must be a way to open a white person’s/Eurocentric mind;-)
@Ellen, just as a sidenote, I am not objected to education. Indeed, knowledge is power and therefore it is even more important who has the power to teach and what is being taught and what is considered as educated etc.
It is also already problematic that there is in our society an artificial hierarchy created based on alleged education.
@No1KState:
>What I find interesting is that jwbe doesn’t even dare address people like Captain Chaos who is an avowed white supremacist. I checked and the guy regularly posts on Occidental Dissent, an Avowed White Supremacist site which regularly states that other races are inferior etc. No ifs, ands, or buts.
> But she loves to attack me..who works every day to diminish racism by giving students articles, books, movies about the Civil Rights Movement, the stupidity of racism, the tragedy of genocide, monitoring open-ended discussions about these topics etc.
> Yet, I am the one who is targeted on this site? Just because I am not an extremist? Some of you really believe you can Change the Entire Planet in One Day and woe to the person who works day by day to change it. Attack Captain Chaos. How about it?
Yup. That’s what I thought.
@jwbe: we had some unpleasant encounters in the past and with all due respect…. if you are unhappy with the comment moderation on this site, just stop visiting this blog. It seems to upset you greatly and you shouldn’t let it affect you as much as it has.
@JWBE:
> Please also address the genocide today of Africans by Africans. I think this falls under the category of man’s inhumanity to man. All races are capable of horrendous cruelty. Merely targeting whites is ridiculous in the context of the entire planet.
> Sorry to bring this up and confuse you. Don’t misunderstand, Whites have Plenty of Things to feel Guilty about, but we are not alone in culpability. To pretend we are is childish and naive.
Genocide in Africa by Non-Whites:
>On April 6, 1994, a plane carrying the presidents of Rwanda and neighboring Burundi was shot down. It was the moment the Hutu plotters had been waiting for — the spark that ignited the genocide. Watch as Dallaire describes how the genocide began »
>Col. Theoneste Bagosora, a Hutu extremist, immediately declared the army was in charge. Within hours, government troops and civilian death squads began slaughtering Tutsis.
>”We saw the extremists, the presidential guard and militias, going to specific houses … and killing people or hauling people off,” Dallaire said.
>He described the horror of getting phone calls from people he knew while they were under attack.
>”As they were busting down the door and opening fire,” he said, “we would literally hear people dying at the end of the phone as they were trying to get through to us and we had literally nothing to send them.”
>Dallaire also heard the Hutu government-run radio tell listeners that Tutsis were “nothing but cockroaches,” broadcasting names of people to be murdered and instructions on how to mutilate and kill them. Watch Dallaire describe the radio instructions on mutilation and murder »
>It was an echo of past genocides. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge called their victims “worms.” To the Nazis, Jews were “vermin.”
>Dallaire says he and his troops moved through entire villages of dead, sometimes clearing paths through corpses with their bare hands.
>”With my own hands I carried them,” he said. “We carried them in our arms, we carried kids in our arms, and adults. We were picking the bodies and moving them aside. …There would be piles of bodies.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/13/sbm.dallaire.profile/
I’ve had to stop reading comments on certain articles on the local paper’s site because the racism in them makes me so angry. Sometimes I respond back questioning their assumptions and prejudices. The paper is supposed to have a policy of no sexist, racist, etc. comments, but they don’t monitor it so the comments stay.
@jwbe
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“Even the Berlin Wall did fall one day, there must be a way to open a white person’s/Eurocentric mind;-)”
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Short of a literal miracle from God, if you can figure out how to do that, and bottle it – you be the most famous, most influential and richest person in the universe! 🙂
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Keep fighting the good fight!
The New Orleans Times Picayune is a prime example of this.
@Just Me!
>Short of a literal miracle from God, if you can figure out how to do that, and bottle it.
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yes, when I know the answer I will let you know;-)
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@Ellen
>Please also address the genocide today of Africans by Africans. I think this falls under the category of man’s inhumanity to man. All races are capable of horrendous cruelty. Merely targeting whites is ridiculous in the context of the entire planet.
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nice try.
next.
topic missed because of lack of understanding.
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But answer this:
Where in history is there a culture like European culture. A culture which developed on a certain continent – Europe – with the people of this culture conquering other continents, committing genocide as well as ethnocide throughout centuries, bringing their Eurocentric culture to every conquered nation, never integrated into any already existing culture. Tell me anything in history that can be truly compared to this history, which means, that the negative impact is still in existance up to today. Tell me a people on earth which conquered continents and made them theirs, tell me a people on earth that invented a system of discrimination and division so strong like racism and which could ‘expand’ via conquest and propaganda on the entire globe. A system and a culture that could survive so far for probably more than 600 years, where the surface may have changed, but not the root. This culture is as intact as it was centuries ago.
If you know of such a culture developed on a continent, which was as powerful like white supremacy, let me know. And tell me why it did end.
@ JWBE:
My official answer to you. Please read below!
nice try.
next.
topic missed because of lack of understanding.
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@ ellen – Please, please . . . my name is Benit and I’m not in it!
@Ellen, no, it doesn’t work that way. I didn’t miss the topic.
This blog is about racism review and “white racial framing” and not about modern day slavery or genocides. My question is perfectly in accordance with the blog’s intention and it is perfectly in accordance with the topic of this post: Racism in Online Comments.
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But it belongs to “white racial framing” trying to destract from the topic: white supremacy.
So try it again and answer my question or don’t address me at all any more.
The question:
Where in history is there a culture like European culture. A culture which developed on a certain continent – Europe – with the people of this culture conquering other continents, committing genocide as well as ethnocide throughout centuries, bringing their Eurocentric culture to every conquered nation, never integrated into any already existing culture. Tell me anything in history that can be truly compared to this history, which means, that the negative impact is still in existance up to today. Tell me a people on earth which conquered continents and made them theirs, tell me a people on earth that invented a system of discrimination and division so strong like racism and which could ‘expand’ via conquest and propaganda on the entire globe. A system and a culture that could survive so far for probably more than 600 years, where the surface may have changed, but not the root. This culture is as intact as it was centuries ago.
If you know of such a culture developed on a continent, which was as powerful like white supremacy, let me know. And tell me why it did end.
@JWBE:
>Address a self-proclaimed White Supremacist: Captain Chaos. He should know the answer to your question. Or are you too timid to Tackle a Genuine White Racist?
> He is a regular commentator on Occidental Dissent a ‘white nationalist’blog. So go ahead. Do your thing. I don’t think you will. It’s too much fun attacking someone you know is anti-racist {that being me} who doesn’t believe You are Holier Than She.
>I don’t ‘Scare’ you, but from a real White Supremacist you run as fast as you can. Don’t you? I am waiting for you to address Captain Chaos. Show me you have the courage.
@Ellen
adressing Captain Chaos is like rallying against Neo-Nazis. It may stop them sometimes from marching, but they won’t change, because the power to act they get from mainstream, media, institutions.
It is like trying to challenge hate-speech because the government is ineffective to introduce hate-speech laws in the first place.
And therefore, I ignore him here, I am trying to challenge why he and some other “real” white supremacists are even allowed to post here.
And you may try to point to somebody who is the ‘real racist’ and you wan’t to claim that you are in comparison to him the ‘anti-racist’, which only confirms my thoughts about ‘othering’, pointing to somebody or within society to a group which can be easily discovered by mainstream as ‘racist’ and ‘I am not that way’. Racism has many different faces.
When you think C. Chaos has to be challenged, do it. But don’t think that you are in the position telling me what I have to do or not.
I see that you are not able to answer my question.
JWBE Said:
>’But don’t think that you are in the position telling me what I have to do or not.’
> That’s exactly how I feel about you! Amazing. We actually agree on something.
>JWBE Said: ‘which only confirms my thoughts about ‘othering’, pointing to somebody or within society to a group which can be easily discovered by mainstream as ‘racist’ and ‘I am not that way’. Racism has many different faces.’
> I guess if you can Other, I can Other huh? Does that make sense. You stop Othering Me and I’ll stop Othering You. You stop othering all whites except Yourself. Tim Wise {once again} told you to take Ownership for Your Whiteness. You have Never done this JWBE. You are so arrogant. You seem to really believe you Know what it feels like to be Black. But you don’t.
>Plus, you never answer my questions about if you’ve ever had a racist thought or deed, even inadvertantly. You refuse to answer. There’s the Holier Than Thou concept again. Don’t address me anymore. I do not find you in Any Way Reasonable to Debate With. Thanks.
Linear thinking is not exactly jwbe’s forte.
> He is a regular commentator on Occidental Dissent a ‘white nationalist’blog.
Curious how she’d (ellen) know that. I find it interesting that you think only extremists are the “only” “real” racist in this society, and also the “most dangerous”.
Ms. ellen, thought experiments are fun. I’m impressed with your ability to know so much about others. Your Ivy League education most certainly paid off I must say. Suppose somebody like myself procreated, what would the children turn out like? Scary thought, isn’t it? 😀
I’m the owner of Occidental Dissent. For the record, I don’t run a “white supremacist” website.
1.) I believe in a spectrum of racial differences, not a vertical racial hierarchy.
2.) We’re not trying to restore Jim Crow. I support the creation of a White ethnostate in North America that would exclude all non-Whites.
jwbe,
The overwhelming majority of human history is a chronicle of various groups exterminating each other, struggling for advantage, winning and propagating their genes. This is the primary reason other hominid species failed to survive into the modern era.
No1KState,
A “reversal of fortunes” is an apt description of the fate of Whites in postcolonial Africa.
@ Seattle:
So glad you asked about how I knew Captain Chaos was on Occidental. Because I wrote his name on google and there he was! I’m smart like that Seattle. Pays to go to Cornell. And that was a Way Crummy implication there…’curious how ellen would know that’. Try typing other people’s ‘names’ on the web and you’ll see where else they post Under That Name. It’s astrophysics! Or maybe magic huh?
@Ellen
>Tim Wise {once again} told you to take Ownership for Your Whiteness.
Taking Ownership for whiteness doesn’t mean to repeat it.
It does mean to explore all layers and forms in which whiteness or the ‘white racial frame’ exists and to challenge them with the ultimate goal to end white supremacy.
While it is socially accepted as well as welcomed to a certain degree to challenge ‘real’ white supremacists like eg Limbaugh and this is then called courage it is socially not accepted challenging the whiteness within anti-racist organizations (or any other allegedly “good” organizations). But there, within these organizations etc one very problematic attitude/life of way of Eurocentric Culture becomes visible for those who can look through the ‘good image’: Hypocrisy as a way of life. This is what I am interested in, the subtle racism of ordinary whites or those with certain labels they need to define a reality for themselves that often doesn’t exist.
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This is not only true on the individual level but also an institutional level, the one example I mentioned once are parts of the German Greens, labeling themselves as anti-racist, regardless their actions sometimes and their negative impact. Should nobody challenge them because they are predominantly white and call themselves ‘anti-racist’? I don’t think so.
I am interested in the nuances of racism and I am interested in the Eurocentric mind.
I have never claimed to know what it feels to be Black, it is your stereotypes and with them you cannot accept that people have different life experiences and based on these life experiences they may gain a different point of view and a very different knowledge and awareness. The only thing we two have in common is the same skin-color. Nothing else.
Any code, that might exist that white anti-racists should not be critized by other whites is only valid within the ‘white racial frame’, this very thing which needs to be deconstructed and must become visible.
I’ve taken Ownership of My Whiteness.
@JWBE:
Well, you heard it Here folks! JWBE intends to ferret out the tiny little devils in each of us. She will ‘challenge the whiteness within anti-racist organizations’. Wow! What a cause..what a challenge..what a triumph among intellectuals everywhere! Kinda like finding life in other galaxies even. Does MIT know about this study?
JWBE, why don’t you kindly dig up your Nazi souvenir collection from under your bed, turn on your Super Duper Gestapo Magic Light-Up Pen, and write yourself a liebesgedicht? Hor auf mit den Unsinn! You are truly So Funny!
@Ellen
fyi your fragile anti-racist self starts falling apart again.
You should not use stereotyping when you are trying so hard to pretend an anti-racist image. But I guess that calling a German Nazi, directly or indirectly, isn’t considered a problem in America.
and as to your German, I guess this is the wrong site for your desire practicing it;-)
@ellen – You once complained that you were offended by someone referring to you as a Nazi once, and yet here again I find you harrassing jwbe with the implication that she is a Nazi (I saw this line a while ago and found it very offensive myself). It would appear that the only reason you turn to this convenient insult is because she’s German. Despite your disagreements, she has kept her critiques of you above the board, and you resort to this crap.
@Jenni:
>JWBE and I go way back. When I first came on this blog, she was very arrogant and rude to me. I offered a comment on something she said to No1KState and she fired at me, ‘I wasn’t talking to you!’ She was extremely possessive about ‘her’ blog.
>Anyway, she insisted {after every other comment I wrote} that I was not the ‘pure’ anti-racist who would bring the changes needed to totally eliminate racism. This was Not because I addressed Her or baited Her in any way, shape, or form. She simply took it upon herself to ‘let me know how insufficient I was’.
>When I asked her where she was educated she said, ‘I don’t read history written by white racists! ‘ You get the idea. She was even reprimanded by Tim Wise who basically told her she was out of line dividing ‘good anti-racist whites’ and ‘bad anti-racist whites’. She didn’t listen..just kept going. He also said all whites should take responsibility for their own white shortcomings and ‘own their whiteness’.
>Then she stated she was leaving this blog for good cuz the moderators didn’t know what they were doing etc. Then she returns! And starts in on me again.
>Believe me..not taking her seriously is the only way I can handle her. She is Not a serious debater. She is Not compassionate toward anybody. I have never seen her soften her approach One Bit. She comes on like Attila the Hun. Very self-righteous and blinded by her own obsessions.
> I think she may be trying to compensate for the Holocaust. I’m serious. Germany feels a great deal of guilt over this. I know several friends who’ve gotten the same harrassment {tons of criticism about Americans and what pieces of crap we are} from Germans trying to {perhaps subconsciously} assuage their unease about their own horrific racist background.
> Anyway, I’m not going to answer her ridiculous comments to me anymore anyway. I’m demeaning myself even responding to her.
“I think she may be trying to compensate for the Holocaust. I’m serious. Germany feels a great deal of guilt over this.”
Why should Germans experience collective guilt as a result of the traditional Holocaust narrative? It is not alleged in mainstream accounts that the German public en masse, nor the Wehrmacht, were involved in the machinery of extermination; it is only alleged that the SS, who ran the concentration camps, and the einsatzgruppen (death squads tasked with liquidating partisans behind the front) were heavily involved. And, if all Germans are collectively guilty, then all Jews are collectively guilty for their vastly disproportionately, nay decisive, involvement in Bolshevism (the men chiefly responsible for orchestrating the artificial famine in the Ukraine, where it is estimated 7-10 million died, in 1932-33, Kaganovitch and Yagoda, were Jews, as well as very many of the NKVD thugs who were their ‘boots on the ground’ were Jews). Not to mention the continued repression of the Palestinians.
Btw, it should be kept in mind, that the year Hilter came to power, 1933, was the year millions of Ukrainians perished at the hands of Jewish butchers a few hundred miles from Germany’s eastern border. The Russian scholar Viktor Suvorov has come the conclusion, based upon his examination of now declassified Soviet document, that Stalin planned to invade Western Europe, the effect of which would have to turn it into one giant Katyn (the Polish officer core was liquidate in the Katyn forest in 1940 by the Bolsheviks) mass grave.
If we are collectively guilty, then so are the Jews. If they get a homeland of their own, then so do we.
You once complained that you were offended by someone referring to you as a Nazi once,
>Believe me..not taking her seriously is the only way I can handle her.
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You demonstrate that the opposite is true, I seem to struck a nerve, otherwise you wouldn’t try to get support from others against me. What you are trying is to deliberately protect the ‘white racial frame’ in this comment section.
@ Ellen..
I’m a long time lurker and was here when you came on this blog.
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Perhaps you might look into a mirror as you argue, defend and justify your actions with your diatribes against Seattle .. Jwbe or whomever.
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You would do quite well if you would heed the advice, suggestions and “constructive” criticism that has come to you from a myriad of folks. Oftentimes we can learn more, and grow wiser by simply being quiet, non defensive and willing to regard experiences that are outside of our own paradigms than we can by pontification…and being defensive.
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Listen more, talk less. You’ll benefit greatly.. I wish you well. : )
@ellen – I know jwbe strikes a cord (albeit an irritating one) with you… and me for that matter BUT, don’t stoop to her level by calling her names like Nazi. It only adds fuel to her fire and makes your argument less credible. Just remember your cause and and ignore her remarks if you cannot engage in a mature debate/discussion! 🙂
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@jwbe – you accuse ellen of “eliberately protect the ‘white racial frame’ in this comment section”. Are you talking about the German-Nazi reference? Because that statement appears to be loaded and I would be interested in some clarification.
@Siss
>Are you talking about the German-Nazi reference?
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no
In Jessie’s own words
>”The U.S. needs to think differently and more complexly than it does about race, unfortunately, we are steeped in a culture that is deeply resistant to thinking at all”.
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in this article she also quotes from a report:
• The concept of framing, or the ways ideas are shaped and presented to the public, is very powerful. Framing affects our response to data and research. Studies show that if the data and research do not fit the frame, people tend to reject the data and research, not the frame.
• Group identity shapes racial attitudes and behavior. Facts and self-interest are not as important as values and identity in influencing behavior.
• Context and environmental factors shape and shift our identity, attitudes and behaviors.
• How we construct the discussion around race can influence our behaviors and attitudes.
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/10/28/thinking-change-in-an-anti-thinking-culture/
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The problem some have with my point of view is that I challenge the way of how you usually look at things, that I challenge your perception of how somebody white should be and how somebody white should position him/herself and that I challenge your limited ability of critical thinking.
In Jessie’s own words:
“McDuffee’s encounter with this white supremacist illustrates several of the points that I make in Cyber Racism, chiefly that the threat from white supremacy online is less a threat of “recruiting” and more a threat to ideas and values of racial equality. McDuffee’s encounter also illustrates that the political struggle for racial equality is one that requires us to be committed, web-savvy and willing to take action and demand a response from institutions and organizations that may be unwitting perpetrators of white supremacy.”
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2009/08/05/fighting-cyber-racism/
@jwbe: I figured, thats why I said it was loaded. So? In what way is she protecting the white frame?
@ellen – I do not want you to feel attacked here, and as I’ve said before I do not support people who use “below board” attacks here (like name-calling). I do tend to agree with JustMe’s comments. I applaud your commitment to learning about issues and attempting to incorporate just practices in your daily life. In my encounters with you I do find though, that your defensiveness sometimes creates an obstacle to our dialogue.
While I am no fan of white nationalism and avowed white supremacists, I am, intellectually and in my personal politics, much more concerned with how white supremacy and racism become patterned into our institutions and the routine practices of everyday life. In a society that was founded on and remains structured around white supremacy, mainstream framing of issues and those beliefs that come to be seen as “commonsense” tend to reflect the views and ideology of whites as the dominant group. Because of this it is much more difficult to ferret out these matters, and thus, in many ways, much more difficult to tackle. And, if can be very hard to see how we, as well-meaning folks, may contribute to the reproduction of this “status quo” unless we commit ourselves to reflection and are willing to take in the perspectives of others. That does not mean that your perspectives are invalid, and again, anyway who visits this site can see these are issues that are important to you and that you feel committed to. Because of that I hope you will take this in the very constructive spirit in which I offer them.
jwbe spake,
The problem some have with my point of view is that I challenge the way of how you usually look at things, that I challenge your perception of how somebody white should be and how somebody white should position him/herself and that I challenge your limited ability of critical thinking.
Yeah right.
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Every so often her mask comes off, and what she’s saying boils down to snide superiority about “stupid white Americans,” who really disagree with her because they just aren’t up to comprehending her level of analysis.
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Why put so much energy into insisting there’s one right way of doing anti-racist work in white America, if white Americans are just too stupid to even get where they’re going wrong?
>Why put so much energy into insisting there’s one right way of doing anti-racist work in white America
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it’s not about one right way. It’s about the willingness to actually deconstruct white supremacy or to “counter-frame” the “white racial frame”.
And how could that be done, given that, according to you, white Americans have such “limited ability of critical thinking”?
>And how could that be done, given that, according to you, white Americans have such “limited ability of critical thinking”?
it’s not just according me, I quoted JESSIE’S words: “we are steeped in a culture that is deeply resistant to thinking at all”.
I also didn’t say that all Americans have a limited ability of critical thinking.
I also didn’t say that all Americans have a limited ability of critical thinking.
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True, that’s not exactly what you said. Not here, anyway.
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There’s a difference between being steeped in a culture that is deeply resistant to thinking at all, and having a “limited ability” to think critically. I’ve often gathered that your presumptions and focus are on the latter instead of the former.
re-read
The problem some have with my point of view is that I challenge the way of how you usually look at things, that I challenge your perception of how somebody white should be and how somebody white should position him/herself and that I challenge your limited ability of critical thinking.
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Means: I didn’t start a new paragraph there, I address those some [people here] who have a problem with my point of view. The paragraph is talking to them and nobody else.
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@ Jenni M:
>I hear you. You’re correct regarding the different perspectives we can all learn from.
> However, we should Definitely address these issues in a spirit of Good Will, not in a condescending, dismissive tone. We are, after all, Only Humans. We all have feelings and sensitivities..much as we try to behave purely academically and objectively.
>Many people on here understand how to express their helpful suggestions to another blogger in an amiable fashion. If done so, we ‘humans’ have a tendency to attend to the message rather than feel attacked by the messenger. I’m not justifying my own sarcasm toward JWBE because there’s no excuse. You’re correct. I should have remained above this level. Thank you for your constructive comments Jenni. 🙂
@Steve
>And how could that be done, given that, according to you, white Americans have such “limited ability of critical thinking”?
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ok, I am trying to explain what I mean with the hope that people at least try to understand where I come from. Sorry for the length of the post.
I have been posting on American messageboards for about 10 years now. On average I realized some tendencies among white Americans: the lack of nuances and I think there is also something quite unique to America – connecting opinion with skin-color/race. It happend quite often that white Americans assumed I am Black. I can be wrong with my conclusion but this indicates to me that whites in America are not so supposed to form their independend opinion ‘against main-stream opinion’ and that this opinion is also based on personal experience and not just based on knowledge one can read in books or study at universities as a white.
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Let us be honest: No white who feels comfortable within this system or benefits from this system will actually change it. Nobody who doesn’t consider the [Eurocentric] culture itself as problematic would like to change this culture. Therefore I also don’t think that we are able to change ‘peoples hearts and minds’ by educating them. As long as whites are not able to connect with People of Color whites won’t change.
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Also what I would like to express and the difficulties to do this in America, I think: Poor whites. Poor whites, their number (not percentage of population) is higher than the number of poor Blacks. Nonetheless they are somehow ‘invisible’.
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With that I don’t say that in anti-racism also classim (or sexism for that matter) should be mentioned but considered in the writings of white anti-racists. I can be wrong, I can only consider it from the writings of white American anti-racists but there seems to be the tendency, at least it translates that way, that all what happens to People of Color doesn’t happen to whites. Which is wrong. Whites who are not in a powerful or wealthier/middle class position could relate more often to the experiences of People of Color, if they were able to connect the systemic dots of discrimination of this system. With that I don’t say that whites are in the same way affected like People of Color or that whites know what it feels to be a Person of Color, but they are affected by this system and could form their own independend opinion against white supremacy and the systems it created based on this own experiences.
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White America’s reaction towards Jeremiah Wright for example was I think not just ‘white privilege’ or within the ‘white racial frame’ but the ‘white American racial frame’ because of the fact that America is a superpower and never has to listen to out-side voices. I think the words of Jeremiah Wright are the words quite a lot of people out-side America might think about America.
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I mention this because yes, sometimes I was called on the American web as the ‘arrogant European’ and I actually also once thought whether I have a right to criticize white America or not, with racism/white supremacy at home. But I made the conclusion that I have a right to do this, most of all as long as America feels free to station their military here in Germany, to also station their nuclear weapons here, wants to Americanize the world and expects the rest of the world to accept English as the dominant world language, the language of science and business etc.
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This being said, back to this blog: You can consider this blog from different points of view, this depends what somebody expects. There are the writings/posts of the authors, where they try to make the ‘white racial frame’ visible.
You can disconnect the comment-section from this, means, this is just a comment-section where ‘free speech’ applies and everybody can give his two cents. This means, that the comment-section is the same like real world, where white mind-set/the white racial frame continues.
I always try to put the internet in the context of real life. Would I expect in real life that, when I join an anti-racist group that also wants to talk about anti-racist activism, that all meetings are open to the general public and are just about ‘fights’ with right-wingers or racist thoughts? And then, if you oppose this you are subtly or not so subtly told that you should ignore them etc. What kind of dynamics happen here? Clearly, racism wins, because racism can dominate over the anti-racist course.
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It was also said that such comments are approved for “educational reasons”. But when you look, who is doing the “educating” at the moment? Predominantly No1Kstate and Nquest, both Black, while the ‘experts’ are silent.
Why do I consider this as problematic? Because it perfectly reflects white supremacy/white privilege – exact the thing which is said, whites should challenge. When even not here – where then?
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And why not just asking the members of this ‘community’ what they think about the comment-section? Perhaps I am really the only one having a problem with this and then it is me who has to do the self-reflection about my expections.
I think that this blog, because of the larger audience here, actually could be a possibility of serious exchange about anti-racist action. Just citing facts and then struggling in the comment-section with racist posts or hypocrites is for me not anti-racist action – because, what can be done about this?
Banning convinced racists is not censorship but the right to be among themselves without their interference. I would not invite Neo-Nazis to an Antifa-meeting and I apply the same expectation here. Because those white supremacists/nationalists posting here don’t come to learn, they come to interrupt, to dominate the discourse and they are pretty able to do so.
The demand to ignore them and to consider them as trolls is the demand to ignore racism, to ignore their possible insults towards others, which means: Those who feel affected by their presence are asked to be silent…
Not problematic to anyone?
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Hypocrisy among white anti-racists seems to be the dirty laundry most don’t want to deal with. It is this subtle racism which is perhaps difficult to adress or to highlight, but nonetheless it exists, perfectly within the ‘white racial frame’.
When it is even here, on a blog dedicated to anti-racism, somehow not possible to ‘make a difference’, where those trying to ‘make a difference’ or speak their mind against this ‘white racial frame’ are still those not getting support/can enjoy honest solidarity – how do we then believe we would be able to make a difference in the real world which is even more unwelcoming?
As a practical matter, I think the best solution really is to just turn “comments OFF”on the blog.
jwbe,
I’ve been watching with curiosity your attacks on this blog and its administrators (didn’t this same debate go down before, in summer?) I share your concern that the comments sections sometimes (but not always – more on that in a bit) become battlefields against racist ideologies. So I understand what’s behind your critiques.
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You got me thinking a lot about the design of this website and how it might better serve as a safe space for antiracists. But the blog format is very difficult. Should we have instead a members-only site? Then there would have to be some way of determining who received a membership. Would people submit an essay or a resume or list of antiracist books read or score real low on the “how racist are YOU” survey? Would members have to pay membership fees (this would discourage the fly-by crazy comments at least)? Then, when the blazing racists who squeaked through the door need to be kicked out, who does that? Is there a members vote? And what about the people who come to the site with very little knowledge, but they are curious, and wow they sometimes write really problematic things, but nevertheless they stick around and appear to be learning something… Question is, do you stick with them, or might you decide that they support racism more than challenge it and give them the boot? And how does your white antiracist conscience handle that one?
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I agree that we need to think intentionally about what kind of space is being created here and the implications. But you act like nothing productive ever happens here. Numerous times I have participated in very constructive conversations in the comments section of the blogs. Have you not? And the blogs themselves help me keep my finger on the pulse of news, politics, pop culture, etc.
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Like I say, I think I truly understand where your criticisms come from, and I appreciate you raising the issue. But I find the snarkiness of some of your recent comments strange. I can’t understand why a committed antiracist such as yourself would fight so hard against this particular site. If you start your own superior website, or know of one with a better format, please post a link here.
@Kristen
one can create a racist atmosphere and an anti-racist atmosphere.
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>If you start your own superior website, or know of one with a better format, please post a link here.
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Why can you only think in terms of superiority? There are anti-racist blogs including anti-racist comment-sections, but all I know and where I feel comfortable are owned by People of Color, in Germany as well as America.
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There is for example a German blog owned by Black people, where there are also ‘calls for action’, means for example that readers are encouraged to address racism, like it was with the German Greens in Kaarst for example. Such letters to the Greens were also published on this anti-racist website, which means that one can also learn how other people address racism.
And the denial of the Greens was not considered as ‘just learning’ but it was considered as what it is: Racism. They didn’t get a pass.
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In addition, on that site you won’t read racist comments. You won’t read for example, like it was posted here in another thread that ‘mules and horses contributed more than Blacks to build America’ etc.
Which means, this German site actually is a place of honest anti-racism where the dignity of People of Color is not violated but respected. Whites don’t get a free pass there and also not this excuse ‘they are just learning, so let them speak their mind, regardless how problematic their thoughts might be.’
There are of course also American blogs doing this, all I know so far are owned by People of Color.
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But let me ask a question to you: Shouldn’t also be ‘white allies’ comitted to this goal when they start their white owned blog about racism?
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>But I find the snarkiness of some of your recent comments strange.
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What do you expect? When you read this comment-section, I did not address Ellen, I also did not address her side-remarks against me on other threads. It was she who started ‘attacking’ me again and it was she, who started insulting me based on my nationality and her non-understanding again.
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post 28
You are Such an Extremist jwbe.
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I ignored her post.
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in post 36 she talked about me
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post 40 was an answer to Ellen without any attack, just my point of view about education
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in post 44 Ellen asks me
“Please also address the genocide today of Africans by Africans.”
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post 63
JWBE, why don’t you kindly dig up your Nazi souvenir collection from under your bed, turn on your Super Duper Gestapo Magic Light-Up Pen, and write yourself a liebesgedicht? Hor auf mit den Unsinn! You are truly So Funny!
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etc
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What do you expect me to do?
why do I have the impression that she is the one supported here and that she is the one who can post all her insults and interfere everywhere and is still supported while she is the one who is not so willing to truly understand white supremacy?
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Should I try it, this: ‘Hey folks, I am white and I am anti-racist and just learning. I am on your side, it’s all so great what you are doing.’
Can I then say all I want?
@ Jessie: You are made of sterner stuff than I. Thank you.
You can make the choice to ignore me but this what happens on this blog is such a mirror of real life and because this blog is dedicated to highlight racism and to make racism visible I won’t be silent. You may not like my point of view and you may not agree with me – but then you should have the backbone to tell me your honest reasons.
Watching the dynamics of this blog your blog is about being hijacked by white nationalists, this includes posting their links. All this without any “education” from your side.
There is a German organization founded by a former Neo-Nazi, dedicated to educate young people and also trying to help Neo-Nazis leaving NN-groups.
They educate young people to be able to realize hate-speech and they also know, that young people can be influenced by internet both ways: Those who are “undecided” can make decisions based on what they read on internet.
They are those who are least likely to actually post. They just read and you will never know about their existence. And sometimes they learn from ‘collective silence’ more than from any well articulated article presented to them.
Those white nationalists who actually post, many of them have learned how to “beat” with words. Those white nationalist posting here won’t be convinced. They don’t come to learn, but they are perhaps able to shy away those who would like to learn or to contribute in a productive manner.
You may not realize it but your comment section takes a quite racist, hostile and intimidating course. Nothing in real life can be a ‘bit racist” and a ‘bit anti-racist’, there is no in between, there is only racist or anti-racist.
What is the real problem in making the comment-section into this what the blog is trying to promise?