Former President Jimmy Carter absolutely correct in his assessment of the outburst by Congressman Joe Wilson during President Obama’s speech to the joint session of Congress last week. Wilson shouted “You lie!” during Obama’s speech to Congress last Wednesday.
Carter, responding to a question submitted Tuesday night at a town hall held at his presidential center in Atlanta, said that Wilson’s outburst to President Barack Obama last week was an act “based on racism.” Carter says Wilson’s comment was part of an “inherent feeling” of some in this country who feel that a black man should not be president. Carter called Wilson’s comment “dastardly” – a great word that we don’t see used often enough – and said the president should be treated with respect.
Wilson, a South Carolina Republican member of Congress, was formally rebuked Tuesday in a House vote divided by party lines.
In this short (1:57) excerpt of an interview with MSNBC’s Brian Williams, Carter responds to what he recognizes as the racist climate against President Obama:
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Wilson fought to keep the Confederate flag in SC some time back, a sure sign of his lack of racial understanding. Black Americans in the South see that flag, often used by Klan organizations and cross burners, as a threat of violence, as indeed it has been in recent decades. He has a racist record before this outburst. And notice too how mainstream, mostly white, pundits and Wilson and other southern Republicans speak of the “people of South Carolina” supporting Wilson. They of course mean the white people. SC has a huge population of other people who are not white, that the media ignore…!
South Carolina has a long list of dignitaries that includes Lauren Caitlin Upton (Miss Teen USA 2007 pageant contestant), Board of Education Chair, Kristin Maguire, Governor (and avid Appalachian hiker), Mark Sanford and now Joe “the hater not a debater” Wilson or the “screamer not the dreamer” as others have dubbed him. I did enjoy him cut and running through his apology, which only goes to show that he stands for nothing. He is just another good old boy where in the morning these married men preach to you that there should be prayer in our schools and in the evening they are on their cell phones setting up a date with their other women on the side, hypocrisy has been bred in. I am not surprised that he felt compel to yell like he was at some Friday night game. So long Joey, you too will be seeing the unemployment lines.
There is no way Wilson’s remark can be considered “racist” by any rational person. As Obama uttered those words, thousands of non-racist Americans were simultaneously shouting, “You lie”. Because the man was lying. Obama lied through his teeth.
It is absurd to claim everything is racism. I don’t have a racist bone in my body yet Obama has been the worst president in our history. There is no connection.
You’re a bunch of wimps playing the race card at every opportunity because you’ve got nothing else.
Pointer, I must ask–though it’s beside the point of the post–how exactly was Obama lying when he said the bill wouldn’t cover illegal immigrants? As I understand it, language in the bill states this explicitly, but House Republicans argue that Democrats voted out measures that would force verification of legal status. That doesn’t seem to be the equivalent of mandating that the bill will cover illegal immigrants, just that the bill does not include mandates for verification of legal status. In other words, even with the verification measure excluded, the bill still states that illegal immigrants are excluded. So could you clarify how Obama lied in this regard? Also, just curious, but how do you know you don’t have a racist bone in your body? When people say that I’m always interested to know what measures they’re using. Thanks.
Let’s look at the reform that has been proposed, and maybe still is being proposed to congress. Let’s take race out of the picture…According to how the reform reads, President Obama is correct when he stated that it was not to include illegal immigrants. This is the complete truth according to the reform. However, the reform also indicates even if Obama does not allow let illegal immigrants take part in this reform, he is planning to set a pathway for the millions of illegal immigrants, to become legalized, so that they may eventually take part in the “open reform for all Americans.. I do believe this is why Rep. Wilson shouted out YOU LIE! I am sure Wilson and other’s have read this proposed reforms fine print. There happens to be a well known phase that called ” “lying through omission”. I don’t feel the Rep Wilson was being disrespectful to the President because of his race, but rather, from reading the reform that the Obama Administration is proposing. At least this has been my understanding, and if true, then the reform speaks for itself…However, I do agree, that it has been the first time in the history of the US that somebody allowed their emotions take over their intellect, and unfortunately, made a complete fool of himself. Has anyone actually read any of the proposed reform? I have read some of it and there are changes in this reform that a lot of people should be concerned about. . Also, I do believe maybe both sides could could come up with something that would make the American people comfortable.
Pointer: “I don’t have a racist bone in my body yet Obama has been the worst president in our history.”
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Your curious desire to tell on yourself aside, please explain how Obama has been the worst president in US history when he hasn’t even been in office for a year and little to no verdicts regarding the effect of his administration’s policies or stewardship are out… Well, at least for any rational person making an honest fact-based vs. emotion/partisanship assessment of the things that would qualify as measures by which to judge presidents.
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It’s ironic how the last president (GWB) was often considered “the worst president” and for actual policies enacted where a judgment about the existing or pending impact could be made.
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61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst
“With his unprovoked and disastrous war of aggression in Iraq and his monstrous deficits, Bush has set this country on a course that will take decades to correct,” said another historian. “When future historians look back to identify the moment at which the United States began to lose its position of world leadership, they will point—rightly—to the Bush presidency. Thanks to his policies, it is now easy to see America losing out to its competitors in any number of area: China is rapidly becoming the manufacturing powerhouse of the next century, India the high tech and services leader, and Europe the region with the best quality of life.”
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Note: That was from the early part of 2008 well before the Worst [Financial] Crisis Since [The 1930’s] WHICH HAPPENED ON BUSH’S WATCH… which Obama inherited and they’re saying there are signs/lights shining from the end of the tunnel. No rational person can pronounce Obama the “worst” president when that is the case.
Some call Joe Wilson a great statesman, and are even proud of his “Shout Out”, so lets see, he says, he was told by the Republican leadership to apologize (he did not realize the magnitude of his mistake), he then gives his weak “not for reals” apology, but then goes on to those “Commentator Talk Shows” and basically says he real was not wrong and plays the victim card and calls for people to send in for money to support him for re-election. Had he kept quiet after his apology, that might have been the end of it but now that people know he lied about the apology the story will continue, until he is out of a job and the funny thing is, he does not see it coming. This summer has been rough for his beleaguered political party. At least he did not end up on the “Republican 2009 Summer of Love” list: Assemblyman, Michael D. Duvall (CA), Senator John Ensign (NV), Senator Paul Stanley (TN), Governor Mark Stanford (SC), Board of Ed Chair, and Kristin Maguire AKA Bridget Keeney (SC). In my opinion the Republican Party has been taken over the most extreme religious right (people who love to push their beliefs on others while trying to take away the rights of those they just hate) and that’s who they need to extract from their party if they real want to win. Good Luck, because as they said in WACO, “We Ain’t Coming Out”. The birthers, the teabaggers, the screamers, and the deathers continued extreme minority presence will become tiresome to mainstream America, if it has not already done so.
Mom–if what I understand is correct, House Dems voted out the measure in the health care bill that would force verification of citizenship. This doesn’t mean that Obama lied (by omission or otherwise) when he said the bill wouldn’t cover illegal immigrants. Further, if he has another reform planned to *legalize* immigrants, then doesn’t that still mean the health care bill won’t cover illegal immigrants? If that’s true, then I’m not sure how tObama’s statement that “the bill will not cover illegal immigrants” constitutes a lie of omission.
All points raised are valuable and are of great purpose to the discussion. There is only one thing I wish to draw attention to. No where in the initial entry was the speech topic mentioned. The idea that the speech was on the new health care bill brings a large amount of weight into the topic. Yes it is true that there may be a good amount of evidence going against Wilson, we as educated citizens need to back up our statements with a thorough readiness to argue them. The speech topic of health care is one that will drastically change the way our country lives. Whether for better or for worse time will tell. It is important for us not to come out swinging if we haven’t clarified our reasoning.
I’m not well-versed in the healthcare reform however I have a question to those who are in the loop.
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If the bill excludes a mandate for required verification of citizenship, then what will become of the people who recieve medical care via the ER? If they aren’t made to show proof, then theoritically, illegals still could have access to our healthcare.
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Maybe I’m way off the mark because I have stayed clear of anything “health debate related”, but Im curious none the less…
alright siss, so this is what you seem to be saying: when someone stumbles (or is carried) into an ER bleeding to death they must see some id first, and if they don’t have it, cast them out. now that’d be the Christian thing to do!!!
@ Adia-The reason why the Rep Wilson shouted out “YOU LIE” was when President Obama stated that the Health Reform would not cover Illegal Immigrants. However, there will be a “pathway” set up for illegal’s to become legal, and when that happens, they will have the same “rights” of all legal Americans in this country, including, health care As mentioned above, I do believe that Wilson knew of this “pathway”, and that’s why he shouted out. I guess, Wilson thought that the President was lying through omission..
@ Sis-People get off the plane from different Countries, and their first stop is the hopsiptal. Hospital’s/ER’s, in general, cannot turn people away especially, in the US for not having insurance, regardless, if they are legals or illegals. However, I’ve seen people from India lying on gurneys with terrible disease’s dying. Who do you thinks pays that bill? We do. That’s why insurance is so high for most of us. There are people in this country that do the same, and who do you think pays that bill? WE DO. I feel a in dept reform is what is needed for all LEGALS first, so we could cut down on some of the outrageous premiums, deductibles, and out of pocket maximums..Unfortunately, just because you have health care dose not mean that you don’t have out of pocket expense. And, if your lucky enough to get health care coverage through your employer for your family, your employer pays at least half the cost per month for your plan..”which is called the hidden paycheck” I really believe there could be a plan that both Rep and Dems could work on that would be comfortable for all the American people. I know a lot of people that say that there should be a “public option” for the many Americans that cannot afford health care for themselves or there families.. Maybe that would be a start.
In addition, and which I find interesting, that when your health care is deducted from you paycheck it’s deducted as pre taxed, which means that the “employee” is saving money.. Now, the REPUBLICANS want to make that deduction taxable.. What? I thought the REPUBS wanted lower taxes, smaller government etc. Just remember one thing, “they work for us not the other way around.” Competency at it’s finest!!:)
I thought I’d drop a note to say that I think this technical conversation about “illegals” and what they should and should not have access to is slightly disturbing. Many of the comments pass back and forth centered in a framework which seems to assume that (1) even if we concede that health care is a civil right, and thus are willing to consider a plan to bring that to fruition for all citizens, it is still not considered a basic human right; (2) it is o.k. to disucss undocumented workers, a.k.a. “illegals,” what seems to me a largely objectifying way, and one that is divorced from the basic needs of human beings (see pt. 1); and, (3) it is and would continue to be illegitimate for “illegals” to receive health care in the U.S. I do understand where people’s seemingly “rational” discussions of this matter originate from (e.g., because the problem is hugely complicated, resources seem limited and thus we must make “tough choices”, etc.), and why they center in these assumptions, but I might push us to consider how this framing is problematic, and to question these assumptions and think outside the ‘framing’ box on these matters. Because they are not citizens of the U.S. undocumented workers are an almost entirely vulnerable population within our borders – they have little to no protection against potential exploitation by employers (which is of course very frequent – employers often chose to employ from this population *because* they are easier to exploit), and little to no recourse when such exploitation does occur. Despite this fact, they make *significant* labor contributions to the society – anyone here eat chicken? fruits harvested in this country? stay in a hotel this year? etc. Not to say that all folks in such positions are undocumented workers – and let’s be clear, when ppl express concern about “illegals” they are almost always centering their concerns around Latino/Latina immigrants – but simply to make the point that if we were to subtract the labor contributions of undocumented workers from the society there would be huge gaps in production in a variety of areas. Some may find my comments moralizing, and perhaps they are, but I believe we would do well to remember how collectively intertwined and interdependent we are on one another not just nationally, but also world-regionally (e.g., in the “Americas,” – North, Central and South) and even internationally.
I have to say that I agree with Jenney…However, I do believe that the problem with the AMERICAN people is the word illegal.. There was a time in this country that immigrants were brought over, went through a legalization process, did the worst jobs that nobody else wanted to do, and learned the language to survive. Most of them fought hard to become Americanized for the betterment of their future generations, so that MAYBE, they would have a chance to have better lives. I do agree, that most of the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are used in a form of slavery. I’ve watched how they lived, worked with them “very hard workers”, and lived 10 people to one trailer ect. The people that profit, however, are not only the their employers, which are mostly located in the southern states, but are the LEGAL people here that make money off each ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT that they bring over. I don’t understand why there are ILLEGALS period. If someone wants to come into this country then they should have to follow the same procedure as the IMMIGRANTS did of yesterday. WE are not a humanitarian country. WE are the United States of America! I wonder how this process could be done? Maybe we should take a look back and study how all the immigrants came over, and make these people legal? Also, how can we honestly take in more people when WE as a NATION cannot get along with each other according to some of the posts that I’ve read. Not many people that come into this country start at the top just like when you start working, WE don’t go in as VICE president of the Corporation. Legalization may be the answer, not illegal immigrants,however, that should be done when the immigrants first come over not after the fact.
@MOM, where dod you obtain this info about “illegals” coming here to see a doc, Michael Savage???!
@JDF: Of course, let them lay bleeding out on the street curb. Wtf? What I was referring to was the mass usage of the ER system as a primary care facility. With the exception of the true emergency cases, alot visit for broken bones, high fevers, etc. For those cases (non-life threatening), yes, I do believe documentation/proof of insurance should be requried. Why? Because someone will have to pay for the cost…. usually it falls on the taxpayer. And while I think it is a basic right to recieve healthcare, it’s not fair that I have to pay my monthtly premimum for me and a portion of my taxes for someone else. Period.
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However, let me say this. I’m in favor of goverment run, unversial healthcare, similar to Canada/France ect. I just cant believe how Americans can be bankrupted by medical expenses… it angers me beyond words. But, I know that the right wingers would have a field day with that idea and continue their b.s. about socialism blah blah blah… So, since this is the system in place (much to my dismay), we have to 1) Control costs; 2) Continue to work on both medical and insurance reform; and 3) Take care of AMERICAN citizens who dont have access to healthcare (see pt.2)
you’ll have to define “non-threatening” cases for me…so you’re saying someone with a broken limb or “high fever” would be turned away? what if we’re talking about an infant with a 102 temp? what about a gunshot wound? if it was in the arm, would that be deemed “non-threatening” and thus they’d be denied care? are you truly being serious, siss?
To Mom @ #12: If Obama has a plan to make formerly illegal immigrants legal, then doesn’t that still mean that he told the truth when he said the bill will not cover illegal immigrants? If they become legalized, and then are covered by the health care reforms, then where is the lie of omission? (Unless…the issue with “illegal immigrants” is not wholly about their legal status…)
@jdf Talk of the town. LOL
@ adia I do believe that’s the way Rep. Wilson was looking at it.. When somebody lies through omission they are actually telling the truth, but only half truths. Like the Native Indians phrase “speak with forked tongue. LOL I’m going to stop because this was my observation of why Wilson said YOU LIE! (He probably would be better of over in England.) lol I don’t believe it was because of Wilson’s underlying deep seated hate towards our President because of his race. That would of been political suicide for Rep Wilson, don’t you think?
Unfortunately MOM, I think Wilson’s outburst may well assist him in his re-election effort…note he’s from a congressional district in SC; I assume he wouldn’t have done such a thing if he knew it would cost him his seat. All he has to do is deny that it was racially motivated, and then wink to his supporters.
Well you know JDF not everybody has the same perception. So, you can say and think whatever you like and I will do likewise. However, and I will only ask you once stop trying to convince me of you racist attitude. I can sense this about you already. Let’s put it this way, Wilson would never gotten away with that outburst if he held that seat in the notheren states.
So it’s racist to suggest that, given his past, Wilson’s outburst may well have been racially motivated? I suggest MOM you take a look at posts on this site and myriad books examining “color-blind racism.” Geez, if only we’d pretend race didn’t exist (and not talk about it) it would go away! As for the argument that this “dog-whistle” racism stuff doesn’t go on up north and only in the south, that’s a load of b.s. Cities like Philly or Chicago, rural areas in states like Illinois come to mind as quick examples in which all have histories of racism, and there are plenty more.
@JDF Let me tell you something. Yes, that’s right the southern states are extemely racist. There are only a couple of notherners that hold seats in the House of Respresenitives. Most of them that hold seats are from the South to the Midwest. (KKK) Now, where do you think they still fly those Confederate Flags, or had the last lynching of a black man in the South 1946, and Jim Crow laws in the south until 1964. Not only are the WASPY white southreners hateful of the “people of color” they hate yankees! Now, all the bull going on today about race is still being generated in the South. Do you see a a correlation? In fact, getting back to the South the KKK still rallies in Raleigh NC as of today..WE don’t fly confederate flags, we have muticultural neighborhoods, we have a lot of inter racial marriages,and I happen to be from one of the only states in this country that domestic parteners can adopt children . So, don’t really want to be pulled into “color blindness” We’ve adopted a lot of change in the northern states that would “shake to boots” of most of the well known racist southern states. We have our differences, that’s ture, but they are whites on white, and black on black. We have white on black, and black on hispanics etc. In other words, people on people..However, we don’t fly the confederate flags, don’t have KKK rallies, don’t hold the majority of House seats etc. And, we won the Cival WAR! And, if you really want to take down the racist road then you would have to really take a hard look at some of my fore fathers who were removed from their land, and forced to walk 500 miles from the east to the Mississippi because of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, and were the last race of people in this country that were allowed to vote 1924. There’s an old saying “that when you point the finger at somebody, then be sure to know, that there are 3 more that are pointing right back at you. Maybe, before you start passing judgement on me it may be in your best interest to get to know that person a little better. Colorblindness, HUMM? What’s that mean? Looking beyond a person’s skin color and focusing on their character? Maybe that’s the way people from all races should do before passing judgement of that person because of their skin color. Or, does it mean ignoring skin color, so as to avoid the REAL racist issues that still exsists in this county, and are more prevelant in the southern states.
Hey Mom!
Decided to drop by! I see you’re still in there being your scrappy self huh? {You know I’m just teasing.}
You wrote: “I don’t understand why there are ILLEGALS period. If someone wants to come into this country then they should have to follow the same procedure as the IMMIGRANTS did of yesterday. WE are not a humanitarian country.”
Absolutely! C’mon..let’s get serious. We Cannot Afford {which country can..point it out to me!} to be the Caretakers of the world. This is absurd. It would drain the US Treasury in a week. We are having enough problems caring for our own citizens.
This may sound harsh, but my opinion: I’d close the borders for awhile. This country is in a severe financial crisis. Why are we allowing illegal immigrants to scoot across the Rio Grande by the millions?
Mexico must take responsibility for its own citizens. Why should America compensate everybody on Earth who is unhappy with their own government? This is a problem for the United Nations, not America.
Granted, there was a time when America could Afford to do the Statue of Liberty meme, “Give us your homeless, helpless” etc. But not anymore folks. It’s not a question of being Christian..it’s a question of other governments {ie Mexico for example} of pulling their own weight. No, it’s not Christian to turn away a poor little illegal immigrant from an emergency room, but what is Central America’s responsibility in this issue?
America has taken Way More than their share of the burden for many years against tyrannical governments. WWII would have most certainly been lost to the Nazis if not for American participation. Desert Storm was also, yet another example, of American troops leading the way while other countries send a relatively few “token troops” so they won’t look ridiculous in front of the UN. America has plenty of faults, but cowardice has never been one of them.
@Ellen LOLOL = I was just having a little debate? with someon, but anyway, hope you are OK..I know whay some of the people like Jenny was talkng about, and I think she meant that theses illegals should be looked upon as human beings first.. I totally agree, but as mentioned they are brought over for cheap labor, and by their own legal/ethnic people that live here. Also, what I found out is that the legals also make money off every illegal immigrants that works person, perday, which I find to be a form of salvery. We were also talking about ER’s and how people in the country will go, and know that they cannot turn them away, and we absorb the cost. Anyway , scrappy, lololo must run in the blood… 🙂
I agree with President Carter… what kept Wilson quiet for 8 years of lies in the case of Pres. Bush? Wilson is more less respectful when a Black president holds office. The discouraging fact is that racists might become more brazen in their actions against Blacks now that our President is Black… as seen by Wilson’s actions, and later the Maryland shouter’s actions. I pray that racists and racism will be eradicated.
“In 2006 the immigration-reduction advocacy think tank the Center for Immigration Studies released a poll that found 68% of Americans said US immigration levels are too high, and just 2% said they are too low. They also found that 70% said they are less likely to vote for candidates that favor increasing legal immigration.[144]
In 2004, 55% of Americans believe legal immigration should remain at the current level or increased and 41% say it should be decreased.[73]
In a 2002 study that occurred soon after 9/11 where 55% of Americans favored decreasing legal immigration, 27% favored keeping it at the same level, and 15% favored increasing it.[145]
In 1996, 70% of Americans want immigration reduced to 300,000 annually and 20% want to halt all immigration.[146]
One of the most important factors regarding public opinion about immigration is the level of unemployment; anti-immigrant sentiment is highest where unemployment is highest and vice-versa.[147]”
We can’t even provide employment for our own citizens. How can we feed illegal immigrants? Shouldn’t naturalized Americans be considered first for all issues regarding survival: health care, job opportunities, housing, education etc?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States_of_America
Interesting concept. Why did Wilson keep his mouth shut during the BUSH administration? I don’t know, but maybe it was because they are both Republicans? I truly am not sticking up for Wilson, but I have to look “out of the box” and think why on earth would this person act they way he did towards our President, and with taking race out of the picture my observation made complete sense too me! Believe it or not, there are a lot of white people who actually RESPECT our President because he is “The President of the United State of America! This has nothing to do with his ethnic background..President Jimmy Carter? I like President Carter he came into my town, and I actually saw him drive by and he waved at us. There was a woman getting married that day, were he made his appearance, and she ran up to him, and he was so nice to her that they had their picture taken..I don’t think that would happen today. I also like and respect the fact that President Carter actually has humanitarian efforts.
MOM Said: “We were also talking about ER’s and how people in the country will go, and know that they cannot turn them away, and we absorb the cost.”
We Can’t keep absorbing the cost! Nobody is directly trying to be ‘un-Christian’, but as I mentioned before one country {namely us} cannot be responsible for the Health, Employment, Food Source, Cheap Housing for the entire world.
Where does Mexico stand on this issue? What is its government doing to aid its own citizens? We Never Hear about this or even discuss it. They always pass the buck to the US as if it’s ‘understood’ that they can’t reform or improve their own health care system..so don’t even ask folks! Is the Mexican government composed of helpless morons who are totally incapable of thinking and solving problems?
I’m tired of the entire world being dependent on the United States in a pinch, and then turing around and bashing America when it suits them.
Note the article below. We can’t even afford to protect our own citizens, how can we provide health insurance to illegals? I’m totally in favor of a health reform mandate but totally Against treating illegal aliens.
Study links 45,000 U.S. [EACH YEAR:MY WORDS] deaths to lack of insurance
By Susan Heavey
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year — one every 12 minutes — in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found in an analysis released on Thursday.
“We’re losing more Americans every day because of inaction … than drunk driving and homicide combined,” Dr. David Himmelstein, a co-author of the study and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard, said in an interview with Reuters.
Overall, researchers said American adults age 64 and younger who lack health insurance have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have coverage.
The findings come amid a fierce debate over Democrats’ efforts to reform the nation’s $2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare industry by expanding coverage and reducing healthcare costs.
President Barack Obama’s has made the overhaul a top domestic policy priority, but his plan has been besieged by critics and slowed by intense political battles in Congress, with the insurance and healthcare industries fighting some parts of the plan.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/healthcare-insurance-govt-healthcare/88667-killing-heathcare-reform-killing-americans.html
I am totally in favor of new health care mandates but totally against treating illegal immigrants. See article below.
Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths [Per Year: my words] to lack of insurance
By Susan Heavey
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Nearly 45,000 people die in the United States each year — one every 12 minutes — in large part because they lack health insurance and can not get good care, Harvard Medical School researchers found in an analysis released on Thursday.
“We’re losing more Americans every day because of inaction … than drunk driving and homicide combined,” Dr. David Himmelstein, a co-author of the study and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard, said in an interview with Reuters.
Overall, researchers said American adults age 64 and younger who lack health insurance have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those who have coverage.
The findings come amid a fierce debate over Democrats’ efforts to reform the nation’s $2.5 trillion U.S. healthcare industry by expanding coverage and reducing healthcare costs.
President Barack Obama’s has made the overhaul a top domestic policy priority, but his plan has been besieged by critics and slowed by intense political battles in Congress, with the insurance and healthcare industries fighting some parts of the plan.
@Ellen- I know, Ellen. I also stated that some people from different countries get off the plane, go straight to the ER because they know they cannot get turned away..I just heard that the health care is slowley getting tturning down. I guess, WE need to take a hard look at the poeple in Washington next election!!!!!!!!We must do our part, so it may they can do their jobs. Most people have health care of some sort, and I guess, it’s working for them.. I believe President Obama was talking about “the people that cannot afford healh care, and somehow the topic of illegal’s came up, and everything spun out of control from there. I also believe that Insruance has turned into BIG Business over the years. Ellen do you remember when Doctor’s make house calls? I do. Everything has changed..People in this country are addicted to MORE! As mentioned before, there should be a public option opened up for people who truly cannot afford health care for their families. Maybe, that would work..As far as illegals, I agree, we must learn how to take of the US citizens first before we take care of illegal’s. I feel bad. I know so many people that do not have health care because they are struggling keep a roof over their heads, food on the table, lights on in their house. ect..BIG BUSINESS Ellen that’s what it amount to. 🙁
Mom……I read your statements and thought you (and perhaps others) should take an “unbiased” read of Jill Quadagno’s “Why the United States Has No National Health Insurance:
Stakeholder Mobilization Against the Welfare State, 1945–1996*”
http://www.healthplan1.com/articles/JHSB04ExtraQuadagno.pdf
After you compare and contrast the tactics used by Stakeholders, ask yourself what makes the Obama case…..”different”
@ellen (#25)
Ellen I am glad to see that you and mom are such good friends!
Your request to not provide health care for people that you continue to describe as “illegal” is a request that many nativists have. BUT you must look at the bigger picture here, if white people in the United States are willing to exploit brown bodies then they must pay to fix those brown bodies when they break them!
Secondly the U.S. is deeply bound up in the global politics of exploitation of other nations, do you really think your BMW will get made if the U.S. were to withdraw from these politics? I doubt it and if you stop and think about where almost every product you purchase comes from it is most likely made by a person of color in a nation oppressed by the U.S. in some form or fashion. In fact if anything should be said about this we should be thinking about how much more we OWE the rest of the world, particularly oppressed nations.
Finally I just want to ask how one can immigrate to and trespass on land that was stolen in the first place? I find it interesting where whites often draw their historical distinctions and lines such that they will fit with their arguments.
@ Daniel D:
I agree that If White People Exploit Brown Bodies, they should fix them. However, if these ‘brown bodies’ of their own free will want to live in the United States {and don’t ask me why they want to! I don’t think we have anything Mexico doesn’t have..it’s the illegal immigrants who seem to think of America as some kind of wonderland. They want the BMW..not me!} then they already Know that getting health care in the US is illegal if you’re not a citizen. And they don’t care. They still want to come here. They know they’ll get crappy work and they still want to come here. They know they’ll receive low wages, and they still want to come here.They know they’ll only be able to afford One 2-bedroom apartment for 2 families, and they still want to come here! Go figure.
I find it amazing on this post that so much Animosity is attributed to whites. As in ‘it’s a white thing to want to live in a nice house and eat nice meals’. I actually read this on a post.
Really? You mean if you took a poll in 3rd World Countries, and asked people living in card board boxes with raw sewage streaming past your ‘front door’ and an old putrid blanket for a bed, with a 6 day old piece of fish in your mouth for dinner, and drinking dysentery-infected water you think Nobody Would Raise Their Hand cause ‘living in a nice house with decent food’ is a White Thing? Daniel, the only people who scorn living in decent conditions is People Who Have Always Lived in Decent Conditions. By the way, where do you live? I bet it’s not a cardboard box.
I am a strong advocate of Human Rights..but as a nation, we are having problems providing work for our own citizens. I came on this site in the first place because I think Americans need to confront their racism. However, providing health care to the Entire World would deplete our treasury completely. Then how would we help our border-line poverty black citizens? Many of these Global problems are up to the United Nations to solve.
As far as ‘exploiting’ other countries, America provides millions of Asians jobs because American business is contracting with these countries to manufacture parts, provide services etc To The Detriment of Our Own Economy. Many Americans are upset that big business is delegating Asians to work {for cheaper wages} than Americans would be willing to work for. However, do the Asians Feel Exploited? Heck no. They can’t wait to collect those American pay checks.
Now about the stolen land issue. Which part of the United States should we give back to Mexico? If we gave Texas back to Mexico and allowed the Mexican government to run this raw land {just like they’re running Mexico now} you don’t believe the Mexicans would just cross the Texas border into Oklahoma? It’s the opportunity to be a part of the US Economy that the immigrants want Daniel, not Raw Land.
Again, as to the ‘why’ of this I have No Idea. I think Mexico’s a great place, it’s the Mexicans who seem to hate it.
Thank you, Daniel, for more fervently making the point I was believe I was too delicate about in #14 above. I love how the conversation continues to circulate around how somehow “illegals” just “arrive here” – no analysis of the push-pull of U.S./Mexico relations that draws undocumented workers here – no analysis of how undocumented workers are drawn here by employers who prefer them as a worker population because they are so easily exploitable; i.e., among many other vast possibilities for exploitation, they don’t need to provide any sort of health care for them – but why worry about employer or other culpability – we can just close the borders.
Secondly the U.S. is deeply bound up in the global politics of exploitation of other nations, do you really think your BMW will get made if the U.S. were to withdraw from these politics? I doubt it and if you stop and think about where almost every product you purchase comes from it is most likely made by a person of color in a nation oppressed by the U.S. in some form or fashion. In fact if anything should be said about this we should be thinking about how much more we OWE the rest of the world, particularly oppressed nations.
Daniel – I don’t think that “I” owe anything to anybody overseas. I do believe, your talking about all the GREEDY Corporations that found it less expensive to have something made out of the US then ship back to the US for the American people to purchase. I always try to buy American made items, however, they are getting harder and harder to find. Believe me I do have a problem with purchasing something made outside this country..For one thing the clothes don’t fit right!!!The meat I try to avoid altogether. There are a lot of Americans the are boycotting right now, you just don’t see or hear about it. I said WE need to learn to take care of the people here first. There are many, many, many, American’s without health care. Like the saying charity begins at home first? Then maybe we should take a harder look at the illegals and think about legalizing before they come into our country.. Those people, and I know, this may sound “Cold” bleed the system..However, being a parent for many years, I would give my own child food before myself or somebody elses hungry child. So, I think AMERICA, AMERICA should take care or her own children first..Understand!.. And, I don’t own a BMW. I wish, but that would not make a better person would it? I do agree with you about how whites stole land, but I don’t think that they stole it from most of the illegals that come into this country. The whites stuck most of those people on reservations. And, guess what? I hear white people actually complaining about the FACT that those people get tax breaks. There is an old saying and I believe it to be true that “Ignorance is contempt before investigation”
@Jenni your comments are dead on, I agree there is largely a failure to recognize the role that the U.S. and the whites that run this nation play in the global exploitation of people of color.
@ Ellen & Mom
Jenni’s point about push/pull factors and foreign policy should very much be taken into account. “Free will” is a phrase that is utilized by white liberals who want to wash their hands of any responsibility. Ellen, you said you want people(I would add that you need to put whites in front of people) to confront their racism, here’s your chance! If we can get whites in america to understand the role they play in this exploitation then we can start to make significant change. But again attributing all or a significant amount of the reasons people come here to “choice” is extremely problematic.
Also it doesn’t matter if its a BMW or a Honda or any other car all of these products are produced in oppressed nations by oppressed people of color. But I think we need to look at why we are in this situation, why is Mom so hard pressed to find a product made in america? Frankly, I don’t have the room/time to give a history lesson but generally speaking we can surely understand the impact that white colonialism has had on many countries and the world in general. This white colonialism is now manifest in labor relations between the U.S.(I say U.S. because the white run gov’t has been helping and aiding these white corporations for decades) and other nations. Specifically the U.S. and its corporations exist in the form they do today because of white’s belief that they should be in control of land and other resources (labor/bodies included). Historically we have seen this with the holocaust and genocide committed by Europeans in the America’s, we saw it in the american slavery system, we saw it in south Africa with white controlled apartheid, and we see it today in the U.S. with recent reports about the shortened life span and health problems experienced by Black americans because of structural and systemic racism. Whites dominance and colonialism (even in the corporate form) continue to oppress people of color in a plethora of ways and this dominance and oppression that whites have facilitated for centuries is why Mom can’t get a radio or television made in the United States. It has absolutely nothing to do with individual white corporations that are greedy and the rest of white america isn’t, this oppression, greed and dominance are deeply ingrained in what it means to be white.
Ellen I am not sure how you read my statements to mean that I thought desiring a better life was a white only desire. Those words never came out of my motherboard.
Also Ellen, basic understandings of how economics work necessitates a realization that land and resources is how people come to have power. This means that whites are in power because they stole land from people and with the nation-state sanctioned white only land giveaways this power has been passed down through generations to other whites. This means that whites continue to deny the atrocities they benefit from and concomitantly they continue to take stances like yours.
As a side note it is not just Tejas that was stolen from Mexico, but approximately 40% of what is now considered the United States. But I am not drawing my historical lines this late in histories time lines.
Just to wrap up (I know I didn’t speak to all of your comments) I think that many whites feel as though they are being “helpful,””liberal” and “critical” when they make statements like “we need to help Americans first” but it largely illustrates their ethnocentric, nativist understandings of the world. White america needs to listen more to the statements people of color make before they can say anything in response, dismissing and being defensive leaves us in a space that is not helpful at all!
I think Mom’s comment above is evidence of Americans’ lack of connection with what they consume. Buying items marked “Made in the USA” does not guarantee your purchase was made by a well-paid, documented worker. Chances are, even if you’re buying clothes made in the US (hellooooo, American Apparel), it’s still made by a group of brown women working 18-hour days behind seas of sewing machines and getting paid minimum wage with forced overtime. But it’s easy to make yourself feel better for buying American, probably something more to do with the nationalism Daniel mentions above than with actually caring about how those jeans came into existence.
Also, why the assumption that all undocumented people are from Mexico? We know that’s not true; I bet most countries in the world are pretty well-represented among undocumented populations in the US. Why are Mexicans being targeted?
Well, y’all seem to have of the answers then do something about it.
I thought I was buying American when labels read MADE IN USA!! helllooooo!! Jessica. I do it because I don’t want to buy products from other countries only because, guess what, I DON”T have control over where they are made. However, there are stores that make stuff like the Amish. …I don’t know what part of the country your from, but we do have people left in the north that actually work for American companies.. In fact, I live in one of those manufacturing states…Sorry, but the way I see it is that most people on her complain about the problem with no solutions. I am just grasping this concept.. I’m self taught on this subject and I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to show a little respecta, if not, then I will change my focus. Thanks:0)
Jenni Said:
“no analysis of how undocumented workers are drawn here by employers who prefer them as a worker population because they are so easily exploitable”
Have you Ever spoken to illegal Mexican immigrants? Cause I have. And they tell me, in broken English, how happy they are to be in the US. I am Not Saying Corps don’t treat illegal immigrants unjustly..cuz they do! However, when people illegally cross a border {with 6 children in tow} with nothing but the clothes on their backs, there is usually a good reason for this. Maybe They Don’t Like the Mexican Infra-structure and Would Rather Take Their Chances in America.
In fact, that’s Exactly what they tell me. Nobody holds a gun to their head {please, this is absurd} and says ‘America is trying to lure you across the Rio Grande…go north my friend..go north’. They Want to be here.
Again, please don’t Ask Me Why! I think Mexico has failed its citizens if they’re so anxious to pick strawberries in California for $4.00 an hour. Why is America responsible for the Mexican Government’s Shortcomings? Where’s Mexican welfare for Mexicans? Jeez..we’re not ‘compassionate’ if we don’t Fix the Entire World? We can’t even take care of our own low-income populace. You guys talk lots of Flowery Theory and Idealism, but in Practice: There Ain’t Enough Money in the Freakin’ Treasury to Do This. You just don’t seem to understand this.
Mom said: “So, I think AMERICA, AMERICA should take care or her own children first..Understand!.. And, I don’t own a BMW.”
To All: This is exactly what I’m saying. Plus, I don’t own a BMW either. I have a 10 year old Honda and glad of it. I also work 7 days a week to pay my bills and I’d Prefer {and I think I have a right to say this as a 7-day-a-weeker Taxpayer} my tax dollars to go to impoverished people who have been in America for hundreds of years {like our own black population} rather than illegal aliens.
To Daniel and Jenni: If you’re willing for your fathers and mothers to go without medicare in their 60’s because America starts giving free health care to aliens..be my guest..pay the health care costs of your aging parents out of Your Own Pockets. Are you willing to do this? A simple YES or NO will suffice. Put your money where your mouth is please. Thanks.
By the way, the costs will break you. You won’t be able to support your own children. But you’re the ones living in a dream world that centers around America being Fiscally Able to Feed the Entire Planet. So, yes or no?
To Jenni and Daniel:
Did you know that Real Bonafide Slavery Exists All Over the World TODAY? Again, tell me what villains Americans are? It’s all a matter of relativity ladies and gentlemen. These problems are, again, for the United Nations to address, not America alone. If you lived in Niger, you wouldn’t be watching football games on your new digital tv while eating a chicken salad sandwich and drinking a Budweiser..you’d be a Real Slave {in the strictest definition of the word} digging in a coal mine somewhere. Check it Out:
Although outlawed in nearly all countries today, Slavery is Still Practiced in Some Parts of the World. According to a broad definition of slavery used by Kevin Bales of Free the Slaves, an advocacy group linked with Anti-Slavery International, there are 27 million people (though some put the number as high as 200 million) in virtual slavery today, spread all over the world. This is, also according to that group:
The largest number of people that has ever been in slavery at any point in world history.
The smallest percentage of the total human population that has ever been enslaved at once.
Reducing the price of slaves to as low as US$40 in Mali for young adult male laborers, to a high of US$1000 or so in Thailand for HIV-free young females suitable for use in brothels. This represents the price paid to the person, or parents.
This represents the lowest price that there has ever been for a slave in raw labor terms — while the price of a comparable male slave in 1850 America would have been about US$1000 in the currency of the time (US$38,000 today), thus slaves, at least of that category, now cost one thirty-eighth of their price 150 years ago, although this does not refer to the price of an 1850 slave in Africa.
As a result, the economics of slavery is stark: the yield of profit per year for those buying and controlling a slave is over 800% on average, as opposed to the 5% per year that would have been the expected payback for buying a slave in colonial times. This combines with the high potential to lose a slave (have them stolen, escape, or freed by unfriendly authorities) to yield what are called disposable people — those who can be exploited intensely for a short time and then discarded, such as the prostitutes thrown out on city streets to die once they contract HIV, or slaves forced to work in mines.
Although outlawed in most countries today slavery is, nonetheless, practiced in secret in many parts of the world — with outright enslavement still taking place in parts of AFRICA, the MIDDLE EAST, and SOUTH ASIA. In June and July 2007, 570 people who had been enslaved by brick manufacturers in Shanxi and Henan were freed by the Chinese government. Of those rescued, 69 of them were children. In response, the Chinese government assembled a force of 35,000 police to check northern Chinese brick kilns for slaves, sent dozens of kiln supervisors to prison, punished 95 officials in Shanxi province for dereliction of duty, and sentenced one kiln foreman to death for killing an enslaved worker.
In Mauritania alone, it is estimated that up to 600,000 men, women and children, or 20% of the population, are enslaved, many of them used as bonded labour. Slavery in Mauritania was criminalized in August 2007.
In Niger, slavery is also a current phenomenon. A Nigerian study has found that more than 800,000 people are enslaved, almost 8% of the population. Child slavery has commonly been used in the production of cash crops and mining. According to the U.S. Department of State, more than 109,000 children were working on cocoa farms alone in Côte d’Ivoire (Ivory Coast) in ‘the worst forms of child labor’ in 2002.
:http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/s/Slavery.htm
LOL Ellen, I really would like to see some of these “people” put in a hard day of work. I mean, something like construction, or cleaning construction, or maybe something hard where you know, you get blisters on your hands, and are really tired at the end of the day from working in 100 degree weather or zero degree weather. I don’t think most of them could make it out there in “real world” America! Maybe they would understand that most people don’t have the time to talk about racism when they are struggling trying putting food on the table, keep lights on in their houses, worrying about if and when their next job comes. Nope, I don’t think some of them have a clue as to what I’m taking about now. However, gotta watch out for these nameless grunt people because if something were to happen bad in this country ;I truly do believe that they would be the ones to survive. Maybe then they would wake up to the fact about how racist the entire planet is.
In his address to Congress regarding health care reform, Obama stated the money to pay for these health care changes already exists within that system – we’re already paying for things that don’t actually the benefit the people the system purports to help. He wants to redirect what’s already being spent to benefit those who the current health care system leaves out entirely. Also, it’s been made clear, specifically because of racist/classist/generally bigoted people, that this proposed health care overhaul will not cover illegal immigrants.
Personally, I’d be more than happy to give up a bit of my income each month to help someone whose employer doesn’t care enough about him to provide health insurance, or someone who is otherwise unable to afford health care.
Jessica said: “Personally, I’d be more than happy to give up a bit of my income each month to help someone whose employer doesn’t care enough about him to provide health insurance, or someone who is otherwise unable to afford health care.”
Jessica, this is a very kind hearted attitude and I admire the sentiment. However, you Can’t logistically pay for All the Immigrants streaming into this country. If a segment of our paychecks go to Americans,fine. But we can’t afford to nurse the entire planet.
@ ellen and mom
I realize that you are both probably trolls given the manner in which you antagonize people on racism review. However, I can and do talk about this stuff all day so I’ll just keep on keepin on. I want to reiterate one point in regard to how your arguments are framed. You both continually state that you want health care for Americans but what does this mean? Citizens only I suspect, but your myopic understanding of how the economy is structured in the United States won’t allow you both to see that the U.S. economy is thoroughly reliant upon the labor of people of color living in other countries. This means that to only care for these people you keep calling americans ignores the labor from other countries that is required for america to exist. I’m sorry but this country has never existed without other countries propping it up in some way or another.
Alas I digress, I think you both should realize that your arguments, as you have constructed them here, reverberate with what Joe Feagin has termed the white racial frame. Moreover because your arguments are embedded within this frame it will be difficult for us to have a conversation but I am willing to continue trying.
I think that Ellen has misunderstood jessica’s point about her paycheck. She is advocating a complete reconceptualization of how we understand healthcare. She has decided that instead of individualizing people’s healthcare needs she recognizes that it is the responsibility of all of us in positions of privilege to affect change. I feel that immediately dismissing her comments are indicative of the fact that you are both trolls and/or your levels of embeddedness in the white racial frame. thanks.
Daniel-I don’t think it’s fair to come out and call people TROLLS, which for one thing is that all you got to say, when people have a different opinion? Two, I think we have been straight forward enough, and have more experience with the world to give an opinion about health care.. Why is it that you just don’t get the FACT that WE may be some of those people that don’t have health care. Maybe we have family members who can’t afford health care, and see the need for an American Reform, and feel strongly about the Citizens getting something that’s comfortable first. Yes, I do see the need for health care for all “People” And too bad, I feel it should be the American Citizens First, who in fact pay a lot of taxes to be here. Those illegals, who do not pay taxes and are in slavery right now, by their own legal people, I feel is a disgrace. Maybe that should be looked at first..I worked with those very same people,, and Ellen is right, those people are happy to be here..However, those people should be put through medical inoculations because they do bring in a lot of diseases that WE get exposed to everyday. What I see are Americans suffering, and illegal being worked like cattle, and the President is for the first time in history is taking action, hopefully, for the citizens, first. When was last time you were out in the world working side by side with a illegal foreigner? My guess is never..I have. So, until you experienced all that is mentioned above, which I’m sure you have not then go read another book. And, another thing as I said before you seem to have all the answers, so go do something about it. Start a march in Washington or something. See how far you get because I’m sure some of the Americans that I mentioned in previous posts would probably kick your A@@. And, Jessica save your money because you are going to need it for when you retire. There will be no Social Security left for most of the our younger generation.
Ellen if it’s true about being “white” and having special privileges enjoy it because by the year 2050 whites will be the minority, and 2090 “whites” will not be here anymore. We won’t be alive to see it, and by the way things are going on in other parts of the world as we speak about racism, in general, there is going to be another world war. I don’t think “people” will give a hoot about the color of ones skin, and maybe that what needs to happen, for everybody to wake up, and realize we are all humans beings first. I need some down time to recollect my thoughts. I am starting to lose sight of what’s truly important, and that for me is peace and serenity.
And, I’ve got to tell all of you ..YOU’RE going to have a harder sell of this concept to the people in the NORTHERN states. We are already taking care of a bunch of illegals, people who don’t want to work, and people who have children to get more money..
We are already taxed to death with property taxes, car insurance, health insurances, in other words, anything to do with the costs of living. I am sure even Joe would have to agree with that. Also, the people in the Northern states are tired of hearing about the Hippocratic raging about race when the southern people can’t even fly the right US flags. Like I said, will be a harder “sale” with most the Yankees. We are not called “blue bloods” because or blood is blue, rather we have a hard time digesting too much crap about the “poor me” and I’m entitled attitude. We are free to pursue are dreams, not entitled, there is a big difference between to two. I ought to turn on some of these people to this site I am sure you love them.
Daniel said:”I think that Ellen has misunderstood jessica’s point about her paycheck. She is advocating a complete reconceptualization of how we understand healthcare. She has decided that instead of individualizing people’s healthcare needs she recognizes that it is the responsibility of all of us in positions of privilege to affect change.”
First of all, I voted for President Obama. I happen to like the man very much. He’s the first president I’ve actually admired in a very long time. I totally support health care reform. My only disagreement with Jessica is that America should not be responsible for providing health care for the entire world {that includes illegal aliens}.
Many Americans Of All Colors take this same stance. I have black neighbors who live 2 houses down from me{I’ve lived in this neighborhood for 23 years, and they’ve lived here for 20 years} who are adamantly opposed to providing health care for illegals. Are they speaking from the ‘white racial frame’? They both work and have raised 3 fantastic kids. They deserve a voice don’t they?
Does Daniel get to determine how all of America’s tax dollars are spent..or don’t families who have worked for 30 years get a voice too? By the way, how many years have you contributed to our tax base Daniel? About 4 or 5 I’d guess. Well, 30 definitely trumps 4 0r 5.
I’m sorry Daniel, but your arguments are specious and naive. Obviously you are anti-racism..and that’s admirable. However, the way Your Arguments are Framed are confusing to me also. The people who work for American companies abroad are Paid. They Want American Paychecks. What about this concept do you Not Understand? How does ‘Foreigners Working Abroad For American Companies’ = ‘Americans Are Morally Obligated to Pay Health Care For Any and All Illegal Immigrants Who Come Into Our Country’?
Please explain this reasoning cuz I don’t think you’re speaking from Any Logical Frame..white or otherwise. Plus, why do you keep evading my questions. Are you yourself willing to pay for your parents’ health care if the Treasury runs out of money for Medicare Because we keep paying for the health care of illegal immigrants: Yes or No?
By the way, Mom and I have been on this blog for a long time now. Nobody has ever called us TROLLS except you. I have never called you ‘names’ such as gnome or widditch or goopy or blooper-face, so please don’t humiliate yourself by being so childish as to revert to name calling to make your points.
By the way”Although outlawed in most countries today slavery is, nonetheless, practiced in secret in many parts of the world — with outright enslavement still taking place in parts of AFRICA, the MIDDLE EAST, and SOUTH ASIA.” This is from my post # 45 regarding 27 million people enslaved today. So how does this fit with It’s the White Devils Who Are Exclusively Responsible for All Mankind’s Ills? Wish life were so simple for you Daniel, but it’s not. You may have to write your master’s thesis on World Slavery Today..this might be more accurate than simply beating on white people.
http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/s/Slavery.htm
@ MOM: ‘Two, I think we have been straight forward enough, and have more experience with the world to give an opinion about health care.’
This is indeed part of the problem Mom, with explaining concepts to young people. I know they mean well and speak out of Disney Land Idealism..but they just haven’t seen enough life to know that life is a series of compromises. I agree that it’s a shame Mexican citizens are neglected so obviously by their Own Governments and feel the need to escape to America to make a measly $4 an hour picking grapes or whatever in California. But, too true, they have not contributed to the American tax base for decades, like many of us have.
Our own black and brown legal citizens are to be given reduced health care services in the attempt to dole out health care to Illegal Aliens? I don’t think so. To spread ourselves too thin would ultimately mean nobody gets Any health care. Young people don’t understand that the Treasury is Finite.
Plus, as I’ve stated a million times before, what is Mexico doing for its citizens? If they addressed Mexico’s ills, illegals wouldn’t be here.
Moreover, I am totally opposed to demonizing any race. All races {very sadly} are responsible for atrocities. There are plenty of non-whites practicing slavery as we speak: {to name a few} in Africa, South America, Southeast Asia and in India..which I understand is the worst country for literally kidnapping street children or purchasing them from parents and making them work in factories without pay.
I also read an article several years ago about how Bangladesh purchases, and then sells young girls to houses of prostitution. This practice is very wide-spread in 3rd world countries.
I whole-heartedly agree that illegal citizens should not be covered by our health care system. I say this because, as others have pointed out, we have to look out for Americans first. Once we get our ducks in a row (if ever) and are able to provide basic and afforable care (it really should be free) then and ONLY then should be even concerned about other country’s citizens.
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Someone mentioned about how all “illegals” dont come from Mexico alone. However, when in context of healthcare, Mexican citizens are the ones often discussed because of that country’s limited access to proper healthcare. Canada’s citizens don’t have this problem so including them into the discussion is pointless. It is not out of a white racial frame…it is out of “taking care of you stuff at home before you go and save the world” frame.
No more food for you!
I would like to point out that this post was extremely insightful and that president Carter has truly done this country a service by speaking up. It seems as though the right is dead set on attacking our president in every way possible and it is nice to see someone with some clout point out their misdeeds!
@ Siss:
Hey Siss! Glad you dropped by! And cheer up a little OK? Life can’t be too bad with friends like me and Mom! LOL. 🙂
@Ellen and Mom – Frankly, I’m dealing with a health crisis of my own, so I’m too tired right now to actually try to debate these points any further especially since the conversation keeps circulating back to the same, tired place; nonetheless I simply want to say you have no business making presumptions about me or any of the other people on this board (especially since this seems to be the “bug” in your “craws” all the damn time) – Here, and in quite a few other article blogs, you two have engaged in more of your little “private” back-and-forth snide comments on the “public” space of this blog, like you two are the only two people on the earth who have any “real life” experience, or have “worked a day in your lives,” or “pay taxes” or “put in a hard day’s work” where you “get blisters on your hands.” I mean really, who the hell do you think you are anyway? I cannot believe some of the outrageously presumptuous and rude comments you’ve made here – just read on up if you’ve forgotten how offensive you’ve been. I’ve done some of the shittiest jobs you can ever imagine, I’m not some “child” for you to scold, and I’ve had real life experiences that would no doubt scare the shit out of you – just because I know some actual damn information that didn’t come off of wikidpedia doesn’t mean that I have not done manual labor in my life, or contemplated the deep complexities of bringing idealisms to reality, or that I’m not deeply connected to the “real people” of the world you’re so fond of referencing.
There’s part of me that’s diappointed in myself for “going there” with this message, but I’m truly tired of reading this back and forth, and if all you want to do is simply reaffirm for each other how great the two of you are, email would do just as well. Please note, too, that I don’t condone any kind of verbal attacking or name-calling on the site (e.g., the “troll” comment) – however, I’m targeting the call-and-response between you two because it has become such a frequen pattern around here and has now unfairly targeted me, along with no doubt many others. I don’t expect people on here to agree with everything I write or comment on – that is not the problem – but I am over this . . . completely.
Well said, Jenni.
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@Mom and @ellen – you’re both on notice now: comment on the substance of a post, in a respectful manner, or your comments won’t be approved.
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I’m over the back-and-forth, call-and-response as well. If you don’t like what’s being posted here at this blog, please go elsewhere.
I truly in my heart of hearts feel that I don’t compare with some of you people. When I came to this site I was extremly abuseed by other commentator i.e FU, Twilight zone, but stayed because I thought that I was learning a “higher order of thinking concerning racism” I though I was learning something that should be said and realized by the many Americans that are extremely racist for one reason or another.. I appologise if I hurt your feelings in some way, but when I speak about some of these topices I speak from real hard life lessons and experiences. However, I’ve also found out a long the way that “life has been my greatest teacher, however, my mind is open enough to look at new way of at some complex issues, and this happens to be racism. I guess, a couple of near death experiences would allow a person to be more open minded then closed minded.
@ Jess – I’ve been reading your posts and find them extremely interesting, however, I do have some questions from time to time because of my lack of fully understanding the subject matter. However, as mentioned to Jenni, I to have been brutalized by some of your commentator’s, and there are people watching this change in me for the good, and other times I get very upset about being attacked/abused verbally..Maybe everybody should be a little more tolerant of the people who don’t have a clue to what’s going on, and maybe those people should be a little more patiently with the ones that don’t have this topic down. And, the only time I come back at somebody is when I feel that I am being attacked as a human being. So, with that being said, I guess, what I say does not mean much, but I truly try to give some people a little encouragement when I feel they are upset. I am a humanitarian kinda of person not a scologist, which since I’ve been on this site and I have said this may times my eyes are opened more today then they were yesterday. Thanks:)
@ Jessie:
After reading Mom’s post, I have to tell you Jessie that I considered writing something last night about the same verbal abuse I’ve been exposed to here. There were certain commentators who seemed to basically run the ship here.
They also did the call-and-response thing wherein they’d double team a newbie to the point of cruelty. One commentator, backing up Mom’s exact observations, indeed had a habit of calling people{actual names used} Twilight Zone, Moron, Gnat Brain, ‘You give me the Gut Chuckles’, Troll, WTF! etc. to the obvious delight of his friends.
A well-intentioned new person to this site is quickly and easily overcome by this ‘In Group’ attack and could easily decide never to return. Which is sad, because alot of people from very different backgrounds than sociology have tremendous contributions they could make here.
I would really appreciate the entire issue of ‘crossing the line’ from academic debate to personal insults to be Continually addressed here…that includes {with all due humility} to myself.
I think this blog is a great forum. I’ve learned alot and have thoroughly enjoyed the endless fascinating angles there seem to be to this Racism Issue.
Regarding Mom, I have literally watched this person metamorph from a shy commentator to a relatively forceful one who Has Some Great Insights! Her perspectives are unique and I don’t see her as the ‘typical’ sociology grad student who {in my opinion}surely has alot to offer, but not nearly the complex life experiences Mom’s had. She brings a whole fresh angle to alot of topics! I’d hate to see that enthusiasm dampened.
I myself will try very hard to keep my sarcasm {cause I know I do this sometimes} in check. It Does Not Benefit anyone and makes me look like a superficial person. My apologies also to Jenni.