[Reposted from Redroom.com]
If you get a chance, today or perhaps tomorrow, do yourself a favor. Look up some file footage, perhaps on YouTube, of Adolf Hitler, addressing his followers. I know, it doesn’t sound like the best way to spend your day, or even a few minutes of it, but trust me, there’s a point to the recommendation. While you watch, notice the unhinged shouting, the wild eyes, the veins on his neck, the psychotic bodily gesticulations. Then, take a look at footage from yesterday’s town hall meeting, called by President Obama in New Hampshire, in which he sought to lay out his case for health care reform to an audience that included supporters and opponents of his plan. Notice: no shouting, no wild eyes, no bulging jugular vein, no apparent sociopathy whatsoever. Indeed notice as the President actually seeks out questions from people who disagree with him, and then thanks them for making good points and raising legitimate concerns, even when the premises of their questions are dead wrong, and largely originated in crazy town.
Then ask yourself, is this the man that much of right-wing talk radio would have us believe is a Nazi? The political reincarnation of Hitler–ya know, the lunatic I asked you to watch first? Really? Really? Wow. Sometimes, it’s hard to know where to begin.
On the one hand, the comparisons seem literally bat-shit insane. Especially when considering that at the same time folks are comparing Obama to the world’s most infamous right-wing fascist, they are at the same time calling him a Marxist, and a left-wing radical. Oh sure, they try and say that Hitler was really a leftist, ya know, because the Nazis were National Socialists. Of course. And hot dogs are made from puppies.
Anyway, it seems at first blush to make no sense. Any reading of the Nazi era makes it all too clear how far afield from the Third Reich the Obama administration is. After coming to power, the Nazis moved to outlaw all opposition parties, suspend the nation’s constitution, round up and detain their political adversaries (or better yet, kill them), and destroy the trade unions. All this, well before initiating the murderous campaigns against Jews, Romany, homosexuals and others deemed “life unworthy of life.” Needless to say, Obama has done none of this, has proposed none of this, and only the most truly unstable person could really believe such things were just around the corner. Although there are such persons to be found in the body politic, such as Ron Paul acolytes, Ayn Rand devotees and real estate agent/dentist/professional far-right activist, Orly Taitz, surely even the most cynical would have to agree that the numbers of persons who seem to buy into this rhetoric far and away exceed the likely national percentages of the truly mentally ill.
And those propagating the comparisons–the Limbaughs and Becks and Savages, and Hannitys (who have the top four radio talk shows in the nation right now)–despite their fervent commitment to right-wing ideas, surely cannot believe that an American Reich is on the horizon. In short, they can’t possibly be serious.
So why then, do they keep saying it? It is this question that I’ve been pondering for the past few days. What could possibly be the purpose of making an argument that has so little intellectual validity; so little indeed that it can be easily shot down by the average 12th grade European history student (who, it should be noted, would have as much education as either Limbaugh or Hannity)? What would be the value, symbolically speaking, of putting forth on protest signs this Obama=Hitler meme, and visually representing that meme, straight down to the little mustache, side-swept hairdo and swastika adornment?
And then it struck me. This analogy, as absurd as it is factually, and as offensive as it is historically, makes almost perfect sense politically, to a movement that is trying desperately to create a groundswell of support behind the notion that white people are the new victims of massive discrimination, the new victims of the Obama era: the ones who don’t get picked first for the Supreme Court, and who can no longer take for granted their hegemonic power. And that is precisely the kind of movement they are trying to build, what with their equally facile rantings that white men, according to Limbaugh, are being sent to the “back of the bus” under Obama, because he literally hates white people, and that white men are now experiencing, to hear Pat Buchanan tell it, “exactly what black folks” experienced during the days of Jim Crow. Within a politics of white resentment and white victimology, the Hitler meme works. After all, Hitler was not just a fascist, but is understood to have been a racial fascist: one whose dictatorial and murderous schemes were directed at a distinctly racialized “other.” So to make the black man atop the U.S. political system into Hitler, is to plant the idea in white minds that he too will be a racial fascist. And if that is the case, the question is quite obviously begged, which race will he be coming for? Ah yes, white man, see? Now are you scared?
By playing upon white fears–fears of a black President with a funny name, fears of a country that within about 30 years will no longer be majority white, fears of the inability to take for granted that our Leave-it-to-Beaver, Norman Rockwell, Boy Scout-approved national narrative will continue to predominate–the right hopes to prove resurgent, and the GOP hopes to remain a living entity. They have all but abandoned any hopes of attracting large numbers of people of color. The writing in that regard is on the wall and they seem to very much know it. So they have retreated into the laager–South African imagery very much intended here–and decided to go all in as the party of nostalgia, a white nationalist party, in effect, whose only hope is to claim that the nation has lost its greatness, and that everything that made America, well, America (ya know, back in the days of segregation) has been lost. And that such a transformation, from a formal white supremacist state, to a multicultural society, is of course a bad thing.
In addition to rallying the troops of white backlash, the Obama/Hitler analogies also serve another function, one that would be immediately recognizable to most any psychologist. That function is called projection: when someone recognizes a trait within themselves, and then, ashamed of that trait seeks it out in others and locates it there, displacing the shame and self-hatred that might otherwise manifest onto someone else.
For these right-wing louts to accuse President Obama of being a racist, let alone a potentially genocidal one at that, is the ultimate in projection. After all, it is the right whose authors regularly publish books with hateful and prejudicial comments about racialized others, not Obama, whose own writing reveals a deep and abiding love for his family–all of it, including the white half.
It is the right that channels Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebells, every time they spew lies about the health care bill’s euthanasia provisions, or about how Obama is going to confiscate all the guns, or casting doubt on Obama’s citizenship, or about how Mexicans are looking to “reconquer” the American southwest, or about how illegal immigrants are a major source of leprosy and disease. All of these things have been debunked, time and again, and yet they are repeated daily, as if facts don’t matter. Because to anti-intellectual brownshirts, they don’t.
It is the right channeling the thuggishness of the Nazi bullies by sending folks to public forums to shout and disrupt, and to intimidate people by carrying weapons.
It is the right that would like to smash the trade unions.
It is the right that stood by while the last president circumvented the Constitution on such matters as wiretaps, torture, the primacy of international treaties to which the U.S. is a party, and the suspension of habeas corpus for suspected “terrorists.”
It is folks like Michael Savage–perhaps the most truly unhinged of the right-wing radio set–who has staked out positions of overt racism and even murderous intent. To wit, his comments of May 11 and 12, 2004, to the effect that Arab Muslims are “non humans,” who should be either forcibly converted to Christianity or slaughtered. Or his statement of April 17, 2006, to the effect that the United States should kill 100 million Muslims. Or his more recent comment to the effect that he hopes “far extreme, violent motorcycle gangs” show up at the health care town hall meetings around the country. Or his statement about liberal advocacy groups, suggesting “they have no place in America,” and that he would like to “round up every member of the ACLU and of the National Lawyers Guild and…put them in a prison in Guantanamo and…throw the key away” Or his pithy paraphrasing of a statement previously made by Nazi leader Hermann Goering, to the effect that when he “hears that someone is in the civil rights business,” he “oils up (his) AR-15,” and presumably not so as to have an intelligent conversation.
And speaking of Nazis, it was Pat Buchanan who said, in a 1977 column that the early Adolf Hitler–the one who suspended civil liberties, murdered his political opponents inside Germany, and set about to invade surrounding countries so as to broaden the boundaries of the Reich–was for all intent and purposes, a model leader. Prior to initiating the Holocaust of European Jewry, Hitler seems to have done little with which Buchanan could find fault, thus his claim: “If Hitler had died in 1937 on the fourth anniversary of his coming to power, he would undoubtedly have gone down as one of the greatest figures of German history.” Hitler was, to hear Pat tell it, “an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a political organizer of the first rank” whose “genius” was in having such an “intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path.”
Yet Pat Buchanan, who also called for the U.S. to annex parts of Canada back in a 1989 column, so as to expand the size of our nation’s “white tribe”–an idea that Herr Hitler would have no doubt found exhilarating–remains a commentator in good standing on major networks. And so the right, which regularly espouses ideas resonant of the very fascism they would ascribe to Obama, gets a free pass, as they project their own darkest authoritarian desires onto others, with whom they cannot intellectually compete. And so they must bully. They must shout. They must drown out reason with volume.
And beneath it all, they hope that just enough people will listen. Just enough to build a movement rooted in white anger, white fear, white victimology, and the reassertion of white nationhood that they feel has been taken from them.
The question is–and it may be the only one that matters right now–what are we going to do about it, and by “we” I mean especially those of us called white? Are we going to let the hateful throngs define us, for us? Are we going to sit back while they seek to organize a politics of racial backlash in our name? Are we going to merely laugh at them and then move on, figuring that the threat they pose is minimal? Or will we stand up, demand that there are other ways to live in this skin, and choose to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our black and brown brothers and sisters who are, as they have long been, under such attack in this nation? Will we choose the road of antagonism or allyship?
Make no mistake, the future of the country may very well depend on how we answer.
Excellent points, Tim. Note this additional example of fascist-type violence. A white man at a town hall meeting ripped up a poster of Rosa Parks held by a black woman:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/12/765705/-White-man-rips-up-poster-of-Rosa-Parks-at-town-hall
Yet more Racism coming out of the closet?
Tim Wise said: “Or will we stand up, demand that there are other ways to live in this skin, and choose to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our black and brown brothers and sisters who are, as they have long been, under such attack in this nation?”
Tim, this sounds like Patrick Henry. Very inspiring post. I personally don’t know how President Obama can keep his cool in the middle of all this hate. If I were him I’d just tell everybody to go to hell. [I know this isn’t a very sophisticated response. Sorry, but it’s how I feel.]
Very interesting! I don’t listsen to the radio talk shows, and I don’t like watching the new too much. However, I did over hear people, in general, refer to President Obama as the second Hitler.. I truly feel bad for President Obama only because he cannot be just a President. I feel too many people expect too many things from him, and the President is pulled into many different directions..It’s not fair or reasonable for President Obama to be pulled into a reform that Congress has been working on since the Clinton Administration…There is NO way that he could have come up with a 1000 page document in six months with all the changes, regarding, health care. It’s not fair for the President to be pulled into individual lives of people over racial concerns. It’s not fair that he had to prove that he was half white to get elected by the white people. However, there are many things in this life that are not fair, but the President has enough on his plate other then catering to a bunch of “complaining” people. President Obama is the President of the United States of American not a peacemaker of the United States of America..I feel no matter what he does, and regardless, of any good he does, there will be critics on both sides of the table. The people in this country in to back off Obama, and let him do his job like every other President of this country had the opportunity to do. Every President makes mistakes, however, I feel that if Obama makes a mistake there will be “Hell” to pay, and that again, is unreasonable, and just plain not fair!!! I truly don’t like to talk or debate about politics’s, but when I watch how people behave, and treat other’s in an unfair way, that’s when I start speaking up.. I did not mean to interrupt your blog with personal feelings, but this has been on on my mind, and again, I feel really bad for the President..Thanks, Mom:)
Tim, I think that you are a very passionate speaker and I enjoyed your talks about racism. Thanks Mom:)
MOM Said: “I truly feel bad for President Obama only because he cannot be just a President. I feel too many people expect too many things from him, and the President is pulled into many different directions.”
Thanks for posting this MOM! You said what I wanted to say in much more eloquent terms than me!
MOM also said: ” Every President makes mistakes, however, I feel that if Obama makes a mistake there will be “Hell” to pay, and that again, is unreasonable, and just plain not fair!!! ”
I feel extremely badly for President Obama also. I think he’s the kindest, most intelligent, most human [not artificial] president we’ve had since…actually I don’t know anybody else to compare him with! But because this Harvard Graduate is black..he has to be put through this preposterous TEST OF COMPETENCE?
Plus, I think the way he handled the Professor Gates incident was exceedingly statesmen-like. He invited Both to visit the White House. Half the country complained cause Crowley was invited, and the other half complained cause Gates was invited. Each half of the country wanted one invited to The Exclusion of the Other. And then there’s Obama trying like hell to keep the peace. What peace?
Now there’s a huge bru-ha-ha over these Town Meetings. And by the way, what Was that Bit about the guy tearing up the photo of Rosa Parks? Talk about raw nerve! How did he think he could get away with that? Would this have happened under the Bush Administration? I just don’t understand how the guy had the sheer audacity/cruelty to do such a thing!
Is this really about our president being Black? I mean, What Is Happening? Are white supremacists suddenly emboldened or something and think “It’s Time to Save the Country From the Black Tyrant Obama!”
Like I said before, if I were Obama, I’d take my lovely wife and daughters and just tell Everybody to Go To Hell if he’s going to be received like this. If America is determined to Self Destruct: Let It! Save yourself, President Obama, cause America’s not worth it.
Bravo Tim! Bravo!
You’re work continues to inspire me to be a strong, outspoken, anti-racist. I am almost done with your new book. Look forward to your work in the future!
Keep it up!
@ ellen – The fact that he’s black is why he can’t tell everyone to back up. Imagine what would happen if he did.
Ellen, I personally admire Rosa Parks she had the “guts and gumption” to stand up and say NO..However, I don’t admire her because she was a black woman that said NO. I admire R0sa Parks because she was a “woman” that said NO!! That was very inspiring for all women of all race to stand up and say NO!! That’s why I admire her and I feel all women in this country could learn a lot from watching our “fore-sisters” fighting for the rights of all women…I don’t know why that person ripped up Rosa Parks picture, however, I don’t feel it’s a slap in the face to all black people, I feel, it’s a slap in the face of all women…I always tell my friends to remember that “we” are women first, regardless, of our culture differences, and never forget it!! Thanks MOM:)
Ellen @ MOM:
Interesting perspective. Never thought of it that way. Thank you for sharing. I guess it is a feminist thing [although I have to say I admire her for both reasons:cause she’s black and took a stand, and cause she’s a woman and took a stand.] 🙂
LOL Ellen, Unfortunately for me I think a lot differently then most people. Most of my friends tease me, in regards, to my perspective on life, but then again, they are crazy enough to ask me what I think. Thanks, Mom LOLOL
@ Mom – Gotta say I never looked at RP from that perspective, either. Though, instead of being either/or a slap in the face to all blacks or all women, let’s go both/and – it’s a slap in the face to all blacks and all women. Most women of color don’t have the luxury of choosing whether to be women first or, for instance, black first. What makes it especially difficult is the racism within the mainstream feminist movement. I’m not denying sexism within the black community; we don’t appreciate black men trying to make us choose, either.
Tearing up the Rosa Parks picture was a definite slap in the face to African American communities throughout this nation and all Civil Rights leaders and activists. Not a slap in the face to all women in my own opinion. To my knowledge, white women were not forced to sit in the back of buses or forced to endure other types of segregation all Black communities were violently forced to endure. To play down the racist symbolic violence of that event is to ignore the very essence of Rosa Parks as a Black woman and her impact on bringing down the racial apartheid in this society. I’m not sure how many white women stood behind Mrs. Parks during those extremely dangerous times and praised her for her courage and stand by her side. And while her actions were antiracist and inherently humanist, I’m not sure how many white women were thrilled at the thought of being considered equal with Black women and members of the Black communities in general. While all women were oppressed under the hyper racist and gendered Jim Crow era, white women still had signficiant privilege over women of color. I largly see the feminist movements as a backlash to the antiracist endeavors civil rights leaders and supporters have been pushing for and the occasional progresses that have been made. That is, white women wanted to be liberated from gendered oppression and equal to white men, but did not want to lose their privileged status’ they had over groups of color (otherwise they would have just joined the Civil Rights organizations and groups and stood side by side with the most oppressed sectors that were committed to fighting all types of oppresion–racial, gendered, class, etc.). I don’t see partisan feminist groups raging because her picture was torn up….
However, I agree that Rosa Parks with out question, is or should be, a wonderful role model and inspiration for all women. And there is no question she is a highly respected icon to all African American communities, of which that action was targeted at and meant to carry shock value and bring deep insult.
I find this so-called “post-racial era” to be pretty damned racist.
HI No1KSTATE!
I not debating about that because you certainly have a better perspective on the subject, but as I mentioned to Ellen, I like to think that all women as equal just because we are women…I was trained in the health care field, and I have to tell you that when you study the human body inside and out you never look at people the same. LOL This is when I decided that we are “all” the same.. In other words, take away the skin and we all have the same stuff going on, which makes us all the same..I also have studied human behavior, and decided that we all have the same “feelings” happy, sad, etc. This is why I think “we” again are the same..I know it sounds a little strange, but this is how I’m able to understand “people” in general…Everybody wants the best for their family, everybody really wants the best for humanity..I am not talking about the sociopath’s, psychopathic, or the mentally ill etc. I’m talking about “normal” everyday people that just want peace in their lives, and every other person’s lives.. I think all females of all races are the strongest species on this planet..I don’t say this in a feminist way I say this because I’ve studied this topic for a very long time…Thanks Mom:) I was wondering where you were. LOLO
No1Kstate- I had to re-read you statement again. I know a lot of black women, and they are some of the most strongest females that I ever had the opportunity to meet.. We are very aware of our culture difference, so what, but what brings us together and unites us together, is the fact, the we are women..I wish I could introduce you to some of my different ethnic women friends…I admire you..I don’t know you personally, but I admire how you are able to write and stand your ground on this blog…I know white women, some of them are very strong women, and they stand there ground, however, I will tell you that some women, in general, make it hard for all women by the way they behave like little helpless creatures who are afraid to break their nails. LLOLO I am not a feminist period..I am a women that would go out of her way to help any women in need..Know what I mean? So, I guess I have to disagree with you about black women not having the luxury of being black or a women…I don’t say this to cause a big debate. I say this trough years of experience, and being friends with people from all walks of life and cultures. Now, I will agree with you about Men in general holding women back, and I will agree with you about white men holding the black people back.. But as mentioned to you before we all have come a long way in a short period of time…I only can hope that someday none of this culture or gender difference will matter..Thanks, Mom;)
No1KSTAT
I posted a couple of other comments, but they didn’t go through, however, I want to ask you something. Have you ever heard of a Battered Mans Shelter? Have you ever heard of a Mans Cross Road Home for the unwed men? Have you ever heard of a women being put in jail for domestic abuse? (actually I have heard of a couple of women, but I say U go girl) lol. However, these are a few examples, and the point that I am trying to make is that men are the number one violator’s of all women of all races. I would help any woman in need, and I have helped woman that were in need. Anyway, I was thinking, again, and decided that you and I live in entirely different geographical locations. There is a huge difference between the northern women and the southern women. So, maybe that’s why I view women a little differently because of the location that I’m from. Won’t be able to talk too much longer just got pulled onto another case, so take care and God Bless. MOM:)
Excellent article – very passionate and very well written. As you have stated, and because all reason has flown out the window, what will we all do now? This is an important time in our history – hiding under the bed and waiting for the crazy people to go away is not going to work. They have a movement of hatred. We need a movement of affirmative opposition and action. The civil rights leaders of the past fought with the lives to battle lies and hatred. What will we do now?
Mom@?Just wanted to say thank you for the education regarding anti racism.. I’m heading back to 12 hr days of work and school..Thinking about getting another degree in something this fall. I’ve decided, that I like s0cialogy. So, maybe I’ll head in that direction. Thanks again. I will continue to read Tim’s and Joe’s work..Sincerely, Mom/Rose:)
Another point raised above that I can’t restrain myself from addressing—the false notion that males are not or cannot be victims of rape or other forms of violence. Totally false. There’s this thing called “big boys don’t cry” and for those who do, they have nowhere to go or no services adequately equipped to help them as there are for females. Either it does not occur as often as does with females, or they lack the capacity to cry out for help, or a combination of both. Either way, this society is not equipped to deal with males who have been victimized in that way. Let me share what two different male rape victims at a college campus said when they could barely bring themselves to even remotely share what had occurred to them—they began by saying with shaky and broken voices, “I’m not gay. I’m not gay.” even though their sexual orientation made absolutely no difference in the fact that they were victims of rape. And in these circumstances it was not the local DV/SA that provided help to these traumatized young men, it was a local Christian minister. Not to mention prison rape. This society is not only blind to, but silences male victimization. And yes, there are male victims of D.V. This type of domination and violation of other people in this society is a direct product of white supremacy—regardless of gender or race.
As I write this I have tears in my eyes. I love President Obama. The news story you read below reflects one of my deepest fears. Please: Could We Please All Say A Prayer For President Obama and His Family?
If anything happens to him, it would kill me I think. I have never respected or admired a president as much as Barack Obama. I just intuitively feel he is a great and tremendously honorable man. This is extremely upsetting to me. So Please Let’s Pray For His Safety. Hopefully, Love is Stronger Than Hate.
By AMANDA LEE MYERS and TERRY TANG, Associated Press Writers Amanda Lee Myers And Terry Tang, Associated Press Writers – Mon Aug 17, 6:22 pm ET
PHOENIX – About a dozen people carrying guns, including one with a military-style rifle, milled among protesters outside the convention center where President Barack Obama was giving a speech Monday — the latest incident in which protesters have openly displayed firearms near the president.
Gun-rights advocates say they’re exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and protest, while those who argue for more gun control say it could be a disaster waiting to happen.
Phoenix police said the gun-toters at Monday’s event, including the man carrying an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle slung over his shoulder, didn’t need permits. No crimes were committed, and no one was arrested.
The man with the rifle declined to be identified but told The Arizona Republic that he was carrying the assault weapon because he could. “In Arizona, I still have some freedoms,” he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_protesters_guns
I don’t understand what your are talking about, so let me try to explain it to you, how I’ve read your article . You are saying that Men have been raped by other men? Yes, I’ve heard of that..Now, is it right? No. I don’t know of Men being raped by other women, have you? There are not programs set up out there for Men raped victims, but let me tell you there is professional help for Men out there, but then again, I live in a very multi-cultural area. I know of places where Men of all race could get help..The difference is that Men are trained from a very early age not to show their emotions. It’s called gender conditioning..We as a society do it everyday. Men toys etc. Same holds true for women, like Barbies etc. So, until Men wake up to the fact that they are allowed to be human feeling creatures then Men will continue to suffer under the lash of society’s conditioning. Sorry, Texas, but I don’t have too much empathy for Men.. I’ve watch too many women and have worked with many women victims of the abuse that have suffered at the expense of Men.. And, as mentioned before, I don’t care if a Man is white, black or purple, I think they still have the upper hand when it comes to women..Only because of their physical strength has nothing to do with their mental strength, or there would be programs set up for men raped victims.. Thanks, Mom
“Only because of their physical strength has nothing to do with their mental strength, or there would be programs set up for men raped victims..”
Do they exist or don’t they? In smaller towns they don’t and in the broader spectrum, the quality of resources is poor and limited. And too many of those who are DV/SA specialists share a common attitude that is reflected in your views–at last back in the land of feminism I come from, which also happens to be highly racist from the liberal end. And that gendered conditioning you noted is directly tied into, and a result of, white supremacy–dominence, power, control, and conquest.
Gender and race should not matter when it comes to human beings being victimized and needing competent services and rescources to serve them and promote healthy healing processes. All victims and perpatrators are ultimately victims of the white supremacist system. But it does matter in this society, of which the whole feminist movement is failing on gender, race, and class.
And I’m not down with the whole man hating bit because plenty of men have joined the cause to liberate women. In this white supremacist society still in current times it often takes men with high status and prestige and the courage to take risks and work against “the man” to make even the slightest of differences. Their contrabutions should be valued and appreciated.
What about men being liberated from being the oppressor? And from being liberated from “the oppressors” also? Considering we are also talking about gendered conditioning…. It’s called break the negative cycles.
Enjoy your sisterhood and I’ll enjoy my humanhood. Take care,
Yes Texas they have many resources out there for Men to get help, however, as mentioned above, and I will repeat myself, that Men, in general, are conditioned not to show their emotions from a very young age, which is called gender conditioning…I don’t know why your mad at me about it because I do believe, one of your famous MAN psychologist came up with the theory..I am NOT a feminist, so please stop accusing me or putting me into that category, when in FACT, you really don’t know who I am.. And, as mentioned to you before, I have WORKED with many abused women that suffered under the grip of a Man’s hands. And, until you have experienced that kind of tragedy, then I would at least, research and investigate the topic before you make a opinion about it. Now, I will tell you something else, that I know of MEN who were physically abused by other MEN, and I have helped MEN get the proper treatment, which was harder to do because of the way that they are conditioned to think..I have put MEN IN JAIL on behave of other people both men and women.. And, what upsets me the most is that are so called justice system does not rehab these abusive perpetrator’s, but rather, slaps on the writs by MEN judges. I have zero respect, especially, for Men that abuse women. Sorry this is ME talking not some feminist. Moreover, because of the abuse these “human beings” suffer causes all kinds of esteem problems in life that can also be debilitating for the rest of their lives. So you go right ahead and enjoy your MANHOOD or brotherhood or whatever your calling yourself. However, until you can show me how you have helped another person or human being other then writing on this blog about how wonderful you are, then, I think, I’ll stick to what I have experienced throughout many years in helping people with real devastating and life changing tragic events, regarding, ABUSE ,of all people, from all race. Mom
MOM Said: “However, until you can show me how you have helped another person or human being other then writing on this blog about how wonderful you are, then, I think, I’ll stick to what I have experienced throughout many years in helping people with real devastating and life changing tragic events, regarding, ABUSE ,of all people, from all race.”
I gotta hand it to ya Mom..that was a Sincere and Powerful Rebuttal in my estimation. Actually working with abused people definitely checkmates academic rhetoric.
Walk a mile in another woman’s Abused Shoes and you have a whole new perspective on the male/female thing. There’s not many women who can stop a drunk [for example] out of control man who intends abuse. My sister-in-law was murdered by her ex-husband 8 months after she left him. It was a terrible family tragedy.
Very sore topic for me..Never mistake kindness for weakness. I know of many women right now that are collecting Social Security because of the physical damage they endured..I know of men that should be collect SS, but turned to drug addictions to help ease the pain of their abuse.. I’m very sorry to hear about you sister-in-law. I have buried 5 siblings because of neglect and abuse they suffered as children.. They all died very tragic deaths at very young ages. I only have one sibling left. Thanks, Mom
To MOM:
I just read your post. I was shocked and saddened by it. I am so sorry you had to suffer the losses of your siblings. There’s not much one can say in a situation like this except: You have my prayers and God Bless You Mom.
Is that Heckel and Jeckel I hear above? Mom and Ellen, so glad to see you two found shoulders to cry on and blow your noses into! Be well.
Ellen, Thank you. I really don’t like talking too much about my brother’s and sister because it brings back a world of hurtful feeling..However, I had to do many, many, years of self reflection to overcome their deaths.. My question was WHY? However, and I tell you this only because I believe very strongly in GOD, which has been my saving grace, and the bottom line, throughout all the self analyzing was FORGIVENESS.. This is how I was able to overcome all their deaths.. .. Without forgiveness from the depths of my soul, I’d probably would not be here today writing to you about it, and without forgiveness, I would not have been able to overcome myself.. However, I am very sensitive to the needs of others when it comes to the topic of abuse. When I help someone out because of abuse, I put a 150% of myself into making a wrong a right..I can tolerate ignorance, but what I cannot tolerate is arrogance.. Now, I will tell you something else, when I came to this site I thought the people on this site were racist people. However, after staying around and it was hard because of the way I was processing what was said, and I was completely oblivious to the real message of what was being discussed.. Lucky for me I’m stayed because it has answered some of the questions that I had regarding the deaths of my siblings. So with all that being said, I would rather work on the solution of anti-racism that’s why I decided to try and understand a little more about anti-racism, so I would be able to find a solution.. Anyway, I’ve been working and I’m really not with it today, the 12 hr. days are a killer for me, but just wanted to thank you for your condolences. With love, light, peace, and hope. Mom:)
Texas, I’ve been critiquing some of you writings and apparently, you work at a college, are from small town USA, and my guess, don’t really have a handle on human relationships because you were either teased or bullied as a child because of your academic success. I would also suspect that everything was probably given to you and therefore, don’t really have an understanding of how it feels to NEED…I also believe because of your insensitivity towards women, in general,that you have Mommy issues, maybe “Mommies boy”? However, I am very please to have hit some kind of nerve with you because of your unreachable status.. So, as mentioned before, go ahead, be proud of your accomplishments, but just remember one thing “every gift in this life that you have received has been a blessing or gift from GOD”..And, it has been MY experience that God does give, but God will also take it away. I say KUDOS for Ellen and me for touching on some pretty deep emotional issues that Texas obviously has, and really should explore. Peace:) I have the day off.
Yup–everything you said was point on Ma. You’re a bright one indeed. Good going.
Well Texas re-read what I’ve stated because I am the opposite accept the for the academics. I did not have the luxury to find out about how well I did in school until I had the chance to actually go to school without worrying about the home life, and I have owned 2 very successful companies, so I know what it’s like not to need. So, hope we found mutual ground because I am not know afraid of you and will continue on this site to learn. And, I would appreciate your nasty comments kept to yourself because of the fact that I’m trying to learn not fight with people. Thanks, MOM
@ Mom – I’m only responding to #15. I haven’t read the comments below. So to that end . . . By the same token, you’ve never heard of a NAAWP that wasn’t a front for the KKK.
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Women of color should not be asked to chose whom to support: all women, including white women, or black men. There are white women who’re racist and black men who are sexist; it’s incombent on both groups, therefore, to fight at least intra-group racism/sexism and not force black women to chose.
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Also, the way racism and sexism work, a black woman doesn’t always have the option of being treated as just a woman or just a black person. White men may not offer the same galantry to us that they offer white women, or like Sojourner asked, “Ain’t I a woman?” Black men may, in solidiary, pull back a chair just to show up the white guy who didn’t; but that doesn’t mean the black guy sees the black woman as his equal.
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At anyrate, the biggest problem I see with all women being sisters is the racism amongst white women.
>At anyrate, the biggest problem I see with all women being sisters is the racism amongst white women.
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I agree. White women as a collective always wanted to be white and their struggle for equal rights is in many cases the struggle for full white privilege and not challenging white male supremacy but being able to participate in the oppression of ‘others’.
No1KSTATE…I know that their are white women that are racist, and I also know of white women that are not..Very confusing.. However, I do feel this way, because of the extreme oppression of black women, in general, that they feel that all white women are racist..Dose that make sense to you? Let me think and do some rescherh about this..It’s was nice to know that you are still around. Thanks, MOM:)
@jwbe Interesting view, but I truly don’t know too much about the feminist movement because I’m not a feminist. I would have to research again, but thanks for the insight. Mom:)
Seattle in Texas Says:
August 20th, 2009 at 7:32 am
“Is that Heckel and Jeckel I hear above? Mom and Ellen, so glad to see you two found shoulders to cry on and blow your noses into! Be well.”
Your compassion for your fellow humans overwhelms me Seattle! I can’t believe you Find A Death in Someone’s Family Comical! Of all the things to be glib and sarcastic about, you picked the wrong topic. This tells me alot about your credibility..absolutely zip! Oh..and “Be Well” right back at ya!
MOM said: “However, and I tell you this only because I believe very strongly in GOD, which has been my saving grace, and the bottom line, throughout all the self analyzing was FORGIVENESS.”
Thank you for the post Mom. Thank you for being so honest and self-revealing. Regarding the forgiveness question: I do know what you’re saying. The process of holding in Hate and Lack of Forgiveness does the person who is hating 100 times more harm than the one who is “hated”.
I was reading another post on here awhile ago, and it stated that the Civil Rights leader Medgar Evers,who was murdered in Mississippi by a white supremicist, told his wife, “Half the people you hate don’t know it, and the other half don’t care.” His point was that Hate Hurts the Hater, not the individual who the hate is directed at.
Speaking of anger, it will take Me a few days to forgive Seattle in Texas for laughing at the death of my sister-in-law. Funny how people who get So Upset about racist jokes will gladly laugh at the death of a white person’s relatives!
No1KState-I just wanted to add that there are also “white” women that don’t like women period. I work with a few of them, and truly have a hard time dealing with these females. Maybe, its because they are able to manipulate men better then they can manipulate another women, and personally, I would like to shake them, but I would probably be the one that looses, like my job..lolol However, what I find interesting is that I’ve never met a black women that behaves like that or at least that has not been my experience, on the contrary, they are extremely sensitive, regarding, discrimination. So, being that this is a whole new world of thought for me thanks for your patience..Mom:)
To Seattle:
I don’t understand why Joe and Jessie
Allow People to Ridicule the Deaths of Other Commentator’s Family Members. What does tasteless garbage like your comments have to do with racism? I am officially ignoring you from now on. Have a great life.
Ellen I don’t think that was not directed, at least, I don’t think it was meant for you.. I am sorry for pulling you into that “whatever”, and take solice of the FACT that we touched a deep rooted issue that lies within Texas subconscience mind, and I truly believe he does not know how cold and callous he made himself out to be… Imagine that! Texas proclaimed humanhood “I’ll stick with my humanhood” LOL.. I do find humor in people’s reaction to negative feelings they actually have about themself, but are not strong enough, or have the courgae to look at themselves…So, don’t take the humanhooded persons remarks serioulsy because as far as I am concerned his full of Sh*&… Thanks, MoM:)
To MOM:
I totally agree! Imagine Seattle calling himself/herself human. As in “I’ll stick to my humanhood”…totally improper English..but I think he means he’s human. I gotta say I disagree with his self definition of being human or humane. What a joke. Yeah..if Seattle’s comments about the death of loved ones is his idea of being “human”..Jeez I’d hate to imagine him when he’s “out of control” and “acting like an animal” instead of lounging around in his Humanhood! LOL!
@ Mom – You’re talking about relational aggression. It’s not that these women don’t like women the way some whites don’t like blacks; they just don’t like what they perceive as competition and/or challenges to their ego. . . . Just read a book about it last month! Interracial relational aggression isn’t that prevalent. So, women of color are more likely to check discrimination than get into an ego contest with white women. That goes down to racial solidarity, even so much that, for example, Latinas report that in general black women accept them into the “club” once they realize they’re Latina. So, women of color do the same thing, just not so much to white women.
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We know not all white women are racist in the conventional “hateful” way. But just about all white women fall victim to the white racial frame. And when pushed to do it, the feminist “movement” doesn’t do a very good job of addressing intersectionalism, which is the word (I think) used to described the many layers of oppression for women: gender, sexual orientation, race, social class, etc. During the Dem primaries and immediately afterwards, there was an op-ed in the WashPo suggesting that the feminist movement give up addressing intersectionalism all together. To put it in a nice little bow, it seems the mainstream feminist movement is interested not in equality but in making women “the same” as men. By that I mean that instead of valuing “feminine” traits of leadership, the mainstream movement values conventional “masculine” traits of leadership; so that instead of arguing that cooperation is a good trait in a leader, they argue that women can be assertive and shouldn’t be degraded when they are. So, they don’t want to be “equal” to men, they want to be “the same” as men. You get the distinction I’m making? And to the point, instead of fighting for general equality for everyone – including men’s right to be “emotional” – it’s more that the leaders of the feminist movement, these white women, just wanna be white men. That narrow-mindedness prevents the mainstream movement from being as vibrant and inclusive as it could be.
Thanks. All I can say about that faminine movement is YIKES!! I’m going back to the long days, so catch up with later…Thanks, MOM:)
To No1KState:
I agree that the entire Feminist Movement was orchestrated by white women. I also agree that I can see how black women would be confused in such a situation as in “Hm-m-m..should I address this and align with the feminine movement OR is this movement inherently racist because it doesn’t specifically address black women’s unique circumstances?’
All points well taken. That still doesn’t excuse Seattle’s tasteless and horrific remarks about me and Mom’s deceased family members. What does this type of Inhumane behavior have to do with racism?
I really shouldn’t have to say this but me And Mom came on this site to learn more about racism, with the full admission that Racism Certainly Exists and should be addressed in this country. Since I started reading posts here I have become even more aware of the Rampant Racism in the city where I live. It’s given me new eyes to see with. I’ve also contributed some excellent books and articles for others to read regarding racism.
All that being said, why does this Seattle woman think she can attack my sympathetic expressions toward Mom at the loss of her siblings/ and Mom’s sympathy toward the death of my sister-in-law? Can You Imagine What the Pay-Back on This Site Would Be If I Ridiculed the Death of A Black Person’s Family Member? Everybody would be yelling RACISM all over the place.
Again, there’s no excuse for Seattle’s sadistic and miserable remarks. I don’t understand why Joe and Jessie didn’t delete them.
@ellen, this site isn’t about you and your and Mom’s personal stories.
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You also have no problem to ‘dish out’ when you are the one benefiting from it and I can’t remember that you had a serious problem with eg Darin’s racism, if you demanded that he should be deleted here, please provide a link.
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>Can You Imagine What the Pay-Back on This Site Would Be If I Ridiculed the Death of A Black Person’s Family Member? Everybody would be yelling RACISM all over the place.
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as I said already, you are quite revealing. And just in case you didn’t get it so far: This site is about racism, and not ‘white people’s pain’
jwbe said: “I can’t remember that you had a serious problem with eg Darin’s racism”.
You have a very poor memory! I engaged with Darin many times and repeatedly asked him to visit the Slavery By Another Name website so he could realize that Ne0-Slavery existed long after the Emancipation Proclamation.
jwbe said: ” as I said already, you are quite revealing. And just in case you didn’t get it so far: This site is about racism, and not ‘white people’s pain’ “.
AND JUST IN CASE YOU DIDN’T GET IT, THIS SITE IS ABOUT RACISM, NOT ABOUT TAKING BELOW-THE-BELT SWIPES AT OTHER PEOPLE’S RELATIVES AND THEN CLAIMING YOU ARE INTO “HUMANHOOD”.
And now that we’re on the subject of castigating “Relatives” which you seem to excuse, tell me jwbe with the German Background..Let’s See How You Handle this One: What was your Grandfather doing during WWII? Was he honing his Kill the Inferior Race Skills as a bona fide Hitler Youth? Ich Lieben Mienen Fuhrer!
To jwbe:
Your beef with me [for whatever inexplicable reason..I think you’re jealous of my Ivy League education] has Absolutely Nothing to do with slandering a commentator’s dead relatives. Das ist fur das Thema irrelevant!
Ellen, I kindly suggest you back off jwbe, he happens to be one of the bloggers on here who has a clue on what he’s talking about. Thank you in advance.
I’ve been polite and civil on here. I was sincere when I said I was glad you two found shoulders to cry on and blow your noses into. White women as a group are very fragile folks and they get all emotional and outraged when their white privilege is bruised just a tad. Not everybody has that (folks who actually care in the same sense) in this society–I can think of a significant sector of this population right now–like approximately 50% of this population actually. Then break that down by race and ethnicity. Then let’s discuss white supremacy and how that interplays with many gendered social dynamics in this nation involving victimization and the reproduction of white supremacy into current times (and perhaps what role that may have played in the alleged deaths of the white people mentioned above). But again, I understand it’s not about that here.
I don’t believe everything I read on the Internet, including personal stories. To be nice, I will end here so as not to offend the fragile white woma/en anymore.
In terms of yearning for your forgiveness, please do me a favor spare me. I don’t need it.
You and Mom do what you gotta do on here. And it’s truly a shame that somehow this thread shifted the focus to being appauled that a person was not saddened and all emotional that a few white people have died, while we have major crises with communities of color in particular without healthcare dying everyday–and dying younger because they did not have the privilege of having preventative healthcare coverage, that should be a human right entitled to all people. Though I do understand that they don’t exactly matter among white people in this nation–as of course, it’s all about the white people. We only give a fuck when it’s a white person or white people who have what ever sad stories (well play a God Damn country record backwards and get it all back as the white privilege bestowed by this nation will at least allow you to do). Nevermind the tragic history of this nation that involves genocide, slavery, etc. Oh, and by the way, what were your grandparents and great grandparents doing during slavery, Jim Crow, and during the Westward expansion of this nation, Ellen?
@ellen:
>You have a very poor memory! I engaged with Darin many times and repeatedly asked him to visit the Slavery By Another Name website so he could realize that Ne0-Slavery existed long after the Emancipation Proclamation.
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Re-read what I wrote: ‘I can’t remember that you had a serious problem with eg Darin’s racism, if you demanded that he should be deleted here, please provide a link.
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>And now that we’re on the subject of castigating “Relatives” which you seem to excuse, tell me jwbe with the German Background..Let’s See How You Handle this One: What was your Grandfather doing during WWII? Was he honing his Kill the Inferior Race Skills as a bona fide Hitler Youth? Ich Lieben Mienen Fuhrer!
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Why are you trying what you complain about when it addresses you? But the games you play are boring, because typical white. And how I handle the one above: First, as a German I got used to things like this, second, you only show your helplessness. You have no arguments. And whatever your intention was to writesomething in German.
You try to cling to your alleged Ivy League education, being so naive to think I would be jealous when you even don’t know anything about my education. But also this kind of classism and elitism is exactly what I try to combat;-) I don’t think that people with higher education are ‘better’, more intelligent etc, because most of all in a system of white supremacy it’s not always hard work alone or intelligence that gets you there, you know. School systems within a white supremacy culture don’t teach revolutions and also don’t teach how to seriously challenge such systems and culture. Such schools basically work to create assimilated, functioning members for the system to continue.
Yes of course there are some very intelligent people at such schools, but I bet there are much more very intelligent people who never get the chance to even enter such schools because of race and/or class, who never get the fair chance because already the skin-color with which they are born or the class they are born into adds some additional hurdles some can’t overcome, while many whites can just enter all the doors that are open for them but closed for others.
Whatever right you think you have to look down on people who didn’t get your alleged education or where you assume they didn’t get higher education, it says alot about yourself but nothing about those you look down.
That means, you have a lot to do to get rid of your ‘white racial frame’, which is much more than your fear of unknown Black men.
You frequently stereotype people for example and this is just another issue I have with you.
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@Seattle, I am a ‘she’
jwbe says:”You frequently stereotype people for example and this is just another issue I have with you.” This is fascinating. First, Fraulein jwbe claims I [Ellen] stereotype people.
Then jwbe turns around and stereotypes Whites as in:
“Why are you trying what you complain about when it addresses you? But the games you play are boring, because typical white.”
Notice the absolute Demonizing of Whites to the point of insane arguments? Again, I came on this site because I wanted to learn about racism. I have contributed quite a few books and internet sites to further other people’s interest in racism. What Have You Contributed Except Lots of Angry Insults Toward Me? And the reason I conjectured you were jealous of my education is cause I can’t imagine any other reason you’re so Pissed at me!
Plus, the reason I brought up Your Relatives is to illustrate how you aren’t exactly happy about slights to your blood family either, Are YOU? So, why would Mom and I not be offended at Seattle’s tasteless comments? If you don’t appreciate it, why is it OK to do it to me?
As to your Total Lack of Intellectual Contributions: I’ll make it easy for you. Just contribute One Book or Website. Go on! Why not try it? “Streng deinen Kopf an” For a Change!
Thank you for the correction jwbe
Seattle said:I’ve been polite and civil on here. I was sincere when I said I was glad you two found shoulders to cry on and blow your noses into.
Nice try but I’m not buying it.
@Seattle:
When people start talking like you: “And it’s truly a shame that somehow this thread shifted the focus to being appauled that a person was not saddened and all emotional that a few white people have died…”
What does this mean? Being a Racism Activist gives you license to judge Whose Life is Worth Something and Whose Life Isn’t? Again, your “humanhood” is truly enlightening.
Ellen don’t worry and be happy. There are some people on this site that are educators and then there are some people on this site that are ruthless haters, so I tend to listen to the educators. NKState is very knowlegable about this topic, and has been very helpful to me, regarding, anti-racism. Thanks Mom:)
Taxas mere words cannot express. However, some of my grandparent were invaded by all your grandparents, and some of my other grandparents were in Italy. What about you? Oh that’s right your the southern “boy” that still likes to fly that confederate flag . Oddly enough, every decent person that actually has done anything good for humanity has been assasinated in the south. Hummmmm Very, Very Interesting, Indeed!
You’re right Mom. I’ve noticed! Some people on this site have nothing worth while to contribute except pure unmitigated hatred. I just don’t understand it.
As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve enumerated various books and websites on Racism that I found quite helpful in understanding this complex topic. I notice that the “Haters” usually don’t offer reading material but merely sqawk off the top of their heads and call Everything [including truly silly innocuous things] White Racism. It’s just dribble!
I’m just going to keep reading like I always do. Right now I’m reading Authentically Black: Essays for the Black Silent Majority by John McWhorter.
Have a good evening Mom! 🙂
Mom, I found something I actually agree with you on, which is that No1KState is a fine educator. The bloggers currently on here I would encourage you listen to are certainly No1KState, Nquest, and jwbe. Also, keep reading Joe and Tim’s posts as you said you would do.
Ellen, don’t buy it. What makes you think I care so much about what you think about me? There are only about 5 people I seriously care about what they think about me and you definitely are not one of them. So please, give it up. But nonetheless, I would send the same words to you as said to Mom above.
I have nothing left to say to either of you.
Ellen I found that Tim Wise’s lectures on-line were very informative. Check it out.. Maybe Texas was right about sharing personal experiences.. Some people cannot really handle death topics. I talk about death all day long at my job, and because of all the deaths that happened in my life I’m able to do so… I help people set up estates for their family members. Some people really have a hard time talking about their own deaths even on that level. God works in mysterious ways that’s for sure, but I also was told by some of my minister friends that “God gives those he loves the most the hardest lives to overcome.”. ” It’s called a test of Faith” I say, if that’s the truth then he really needs to love me a little less LOLO… Anyway, check out some of Tim’s lectures because they are very enlightening..Thanks, MoM 🙂
@ ellen’s comment #42 – Like I said to Mom, I was only responding to her comment #15 and anything above. I haven’t read anything between you and Seattle. But, seattle’s cool. I may read through everything later, but if it stinks everywhere you go . . .
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That said. No, we’re not confused. We side with feminists when they’re not being racist. Ie, black women were on the fence between Clinton and Obama – who I personally saw as equal in tangible ability. Some of the offensive comments made by the Clinton camp is what pushed some of us over to Obama. Had it been the other way around, things may have been different.
“The truth is that it takes years to make personal progress first in recognizing one’s own prejudice and proceeding to stamp it out in one’s own behavior.”
Please Read Below. Very Eloquently Stated!
On February 25th, 2009 ubstu34 says:
White people trip up in frank interracial conversations about race because they feel uncomfortable viewing themselves from the point of view of someone who is not white. Once they pass through the looking glass those casual conversations they have with other white people that are only meant to be given in the company of other white people become profoundly disturbing and disorienting. They either react negatively or they engage in a lot of needless hand wringing in the hope of retaining their moral credibility. Neither approach succeeds in furthering a discussion or heightening an understanding of the matter at hand. While one insults the intelligence and integrity of non-white people, the other leads to emotional burnout. As a white person, I have experienced feelings of guilt in seeking to understand what it means to be a person of color in this country. I think this is only natural and reflects an attempt to be honest about the situation. Guilt, however, is not an effective means of instigating a conducive conversation. I agree with P6–there are certain people who will never be forced into having a conversation about race but will take refuge in their ignorance and their platitudes. There are others who will engage in psuedo-conversations with their black friends at work who will tell them what they want to hear. There are some who think that the insights gleaned in their conversations with their Asian friends apply to relations between white and black and vice versa. There are others who will resort to paternalism to expunge their feelings of guilt. All are looking for a quick robotic fix. The truth is that it takes years to make personal progress first in recognizing one’s own prejudice and proceeding to stamp it out in one’s own behavior and calling it out in those of others. I feel I have been on this journey for about ten years and have a long way to go. It is a process that requires ingenuity and creativity. I certainly can’t speak for all white people–I can only speak for myself as someone who grew up in a predominately white environment and who abhorred racism on an abstract level but internalized racist beliefs on a practical level.
@Ellen,
>Notice the absolute Demonizing of Whites to the point of insane arguments? Again, I came on this site because I wanted to learn about racism.
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racism comes in many different forms, not ‘just’ the blatant ones. Reading is only one part of ‘learning about racism’, becoming aware of subtle racism or subtle ways with which whites continue white supremacy and European culture is something one cannot learn with reading alone. It is real life experience, based on many exchanges with whites at different ‘stages’ of racism, and then one can realize, that many whites react in very similar ways, denial, defense, ‘not understanding’ and much more. This is not demonizing whites, but trying to understand whiteness. How it manifests in its many different ways, also ways not directly related to race.
To jwbe:
All points well taken. This is actually one exchange where I don’t detect anger or resentment in your posts directed at me.
The entire issue I had was with Seattle making an extremely tasteless comment on the deaths of Mom’s and my relatives. I thought this was completely out of line with any discussions regarding racism. For anyone to justify this kind of behavior as in “why should we interupt the discussion just because A Few White People died?” shows brutality and callousness toward All People not just whites. Period.
To make excuses for him/her is ridiculous and totally beyond reason. And to make excuses for him/her in a Racial Context [he was just making a point about race yada yada yada yada…] is preposterous. Black citizens would be just as offended in a similar situation. Enough Said. Thanks.
I found a couple of different topics that go deeper in the “white racial frame”, and I think I have gotten a little more understanding..
@ Texas Although Ellen and I exchanged a few lines of condolences on some really sensitive topics, I have to agree with Ellen there was really was no reason for you to make those comments..In all honesty it was NONE of your business. So, you stuck your nose in something that was not pertained to you, and we reacted not in a “white framed” way , but rather, two human beings that felt that we were being attacked regarding loss of some of the most important people in our live our family.. And, in reality, many losses, not just a few.. I also believe very strongly that people don’t really take the time to understand another persons plite, until it hits home..Now, with all that being said, and if you are a humanist as you have stated then maybe you should of stayed out of the two posts that we expressed towards each other. And, really, how the hell can a small group of people solve a national crisis? I would think, that you would want to educate your message, so that more people would want to unite and help with this movment.
Jwbe: You are right this is not about “white” people’s painful stories, but we didn’t tell stories only a couple of lines of understanding of something we had in common, regarding loss. I don’t know why you felt compelled to make it out to be a “white frame thinking” issues. However, what I’ve read on another post that you wrote really helped me to understand what that meant, and that’s why I’m writing this to you now.
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@ Ellen I enjoyed your artical.. Did you check out some of Tim’s lectures? Thanks, MOM
@ Mom: “And, really, how the hell can a small group of people solve a national crisis? I would think, that you would want to educate your message, so that more people would want to unite and help with this movment.”
First of all, I’ve been reading Tim’s lectures for awhile and they’re brilliant.
Second, as to what you’ve said about the small group of people who should Welcome others, I’ve been confused on this point for awhile. It seems some of the veterans on this site almost Resent new people because We Don’t Exactly Fit The Mold even though we’re trying and reading continuously.
As was mentioned in the above article, written by another white woman, It Takes Times to truly understand the black perspective. Why we should be addressed with snide remarks sometimes is baffling to me. Don’t you want others to join you? Do you expect everybody to be cookie-cutter clones of yourselves? That’s impossible.
And the rebuttal that “Well..we’re just trying to help you see the errors in some of your assumptions” is perfectly valid. But can’t you do it in a civil way? Sometimes, I feel as if the very Presence of New People irritates you. I don’t believe this is what Joe and Jessie intended when they founded this blog.
Now if you want the whole blog to yourselves..again..what will you accomplish? You must allow for the differences in backgrounds and perspectives of many other people..as long as they are opposed to Racism and are Actively learning more about it.
And you said many things in your post Mom that were extremely perceptive! I have to go to work now, so have a Great Afternoon! 🙂
Distance 88 Said: “NOW on this issue. and that means we need white folks to call out the racism.”
I agree! That’s one more reason why the white people who Want to Help should not be kicked in the teeth on this site.
Ellen ,as stated before, when I came to this site I thought the people were extremely racist. I though they were saying that all white people were “white supremist” aka as Arian’s Nation.. I know many people from all walks of life as stated many times, and believe me, I do not endorse that organization in any way, shape or form..However, it took some reading and research on my part to understand what the commentators meant by “white surpremacy” .I do believe this to be a higher order of thinking regarding racism. This is what caught my attention, otherwise, I would of thought of these people as completly nuts, as to put All white people in the category of the Arian Nation’s extreme racist beliefs. LOLOLO And, I have to agree ,that if white people would “call out racism” it certainly would confuse a lot of white racist people, who are not extreme as the Arian’s, but racist for other reasons, and approachable enough, to talk about racism.. Thanks, MoM;)
Hey Mom:
I’ve read quite a bit about white supremacy myself since I discovered this website, and I do know what you’re talking about. It’s a reflection of the Entire White Frame Work that America operates from. The more I’ve thought and read about it, the more sense it makes. That’s Why I stay here.
That being said, why should I have to walk on eggs, when I am giving my voice, my time, my energy to this website to Oppose Racism? There are some Very Sullen, Morose people on this site who seem to delight in “nit-picking” at every single angle of every other post I write. Why is That? Am I the nearest “new white kid on the block” and therefore I’m used for target practice?
A foolish mistake, since eradicating racism will need the Voice of Whites. If this is all about Hating Whites thinly disguised as “Well, I was Just trying to point out that what you just said sounded white “…Absurd! Gee, maybe I sound White cause I am White!
I have attempted to understand many aspects of the information presented while offering documentation myself, but I will not play these childish Semantic games ad nauseum.
If I’m here and posting information that relates to Anti-Racism and Relating my own Anti-Racist sentiments and trying honest self-examination, That Should Be Enough.
I can name several well-intentioned whites [but I won’t cause I don’t want to start a big argument] who have left since I’ve been here. Why? Cause they couldn’t take the insults and sniper attacks from the Veterans. Why should Anti-Racist whites be treated like “The Enemy” ? Again, a foolish tactical mistake. It’s like A Game with some people, and that’s a huge disservice to the Black Americans who really need the understanding and support of both blacks and whites.
And Mom, no, I don’t think these people are “nuts”. I just think they’ve gotten so carried away by Semantic Debate Games and looking for tics on a dog’s back that they Now Have Entirely Missed the Purpose of the Blog.
Ellen, I said, that I thought, that by using “white surpemacy”, regarding white people was getting me confused. That’s how a lot of people refer to the Arian Nation Movement. I was not understanding the difference between “white frame” and “white surpremacy” in how bloggers were using that to identify the “white racial frame of thinking”. And, also, as I understand the “white frame” of thinking, now has to do with Euro centrism. Anyway, the purpose of this site, as I understand, it is for scholar’s, students, and the general public who want to learn about anti-racism have a right, or at least invited to learn about what I just mentioned above, which is a lot of information to catch up on without being on this site for a long time or going to school and studying the topic. I have watched a lot of bloggers come to this site and made brutal attacks on some of the people on this site with complete hate towards the black population then leave..I stayed because I wanted to learn. I don’t know why some people challenge you, however, maybe it’s because you are good at debating this better then most.. However, I found the artical that you wrote above to be very informative, and I hope you continue with this site, to learn more about anti-rascism. And, with that being said, I have a very long day, and getting ready to shut down..Have a good evening.. Thanks, MOM:)
@ellen,
perhaps one day you will understand.
@ jwbe: You said this on August 19th on This Blog: “White Americans who are silent now will some day realize that they allowed white extremist groups to come to power which will finally also destroy their white illusional world they have lived throughout white American history.
Whites who try to combat racism should understand that they also fight for their own democratic and human rights.”
So here I am, a “White American” who is Not Being Silent but claiming for all the world to hear that I Oppose Racism and That It Is Alive and Well in America today.
And still you claim I need to understand your criticism of me. You need to Back Off well-intentioned Whites who come on this site with a willingness to combat this “national crisis”, as Mom called it, cause it is.
If you really wanted to help Black Americans, you would welcome whites who want to help, instead of this constant and Fruitless nit-picking. Black families are literally starving in American and dying from lack of decent health care..and you’re “being selective” as to which “white people” get to help the situation.
Think of it this way: You’re in a hospital surrounded by dying people with very few staff members to assist them. A person walks in and Offers to help For Free. You say..”Hm-m-m…I don’t think so..You’re wearing a blue shirt instead of a green one. I think today we’ll only accept helpers with green shirts. G’bye!” If you believe that a million other anti-racist whites will take my place, Think Again!
Perhaps, someday You will Understand. Your own ludicrous semantic games will lose you this War jwbe.
Ellen, if you are serious nobody will be able to stop you. If somebody, is able to stop you, you have never been serious.
So again: One day you perhaps will understand
@ jwbe: I haven’t left yet have I? I’m serious as hell. I would appreciate total Quiet coming from your corner from now on however, since you yourself claimed Anti-Racist whites should speak out. FYI: If white people want to help out, don’t get pissy at them. It’s obnoxious and defeats Your Own Self-Proclaimed Goal.
I’ve been thinking again. There has been many statesment’s made about “children” in this great country of ours that do not get proper health care, food etc. I would like to know what STATES you all are talking about. First, I happen to live in a STATE were we have those kinds of programs set up for children and adults who don’t can’t afford health care and food.. It’s called medicaid and food stamp programs. We also pay for housing for people who cannot afford a place to live.. We also have Head Start programs for working parents that can’t afford to send their kids to day care, but can go to work, so that’s why we have those programs. I used to work in one myself. Anyway, I guess the point that I’m trying to make is that the US Gov. is more interested in taking care of a forein country, rather then spending our money to improve the shape of this country..We just sent 180 million over to Pakanistan. Let me repeat that WE just sent 180 million over to a forein country. Why? This has nothing to do with race, right? Maybe WE should stop sending the millions of dollars to different countries and take care of our own FIRST? Another example “cash for clunkers” progams were the US car dealers would give 4500 dollars for your old car, so that people would be able to get a new car. Now, with that being said, Senior Citizens are not getting an increase in the SS for the next two years. Let me repeat that OUR American Senior Citizens of all race will not get a increase in the Social Security Checks for the next two years. However, their Medicare is going to continue to go up for the next two years. Yes I agree strongly about racism, but I ALSO HAVE MY EYES ON WASTLESS SPENDING BY OUR GOV. FUNNY HOW THE GOV. LIKE TO USE OUR TAXS DOLLARS WITHOUT MAYBE ASKING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, FIRST. That’s just one example of the money sent to different parts of the world. Maybe we as AMERICANS should be giving the opprotunity to vote on some of the S*&^ that the GOV. does becasue THEN MAYBE SOME OF OUR CITIZENS WOULD HAVE A CHANCE TO MAKE IT IN THIS COUNTRY..Thanks, MOM:)
@ellen, I guess you don’t think it’s odd to be a ‘newbie’ who wants to learn trying to silence somebody who is a ‘veteran’. It’s also not odd to you as it seems, to refer to name-calling but demanding to be treated ‘civil’ by others.
You don’t think it’s odd to add your two cents just two add your two cents, when I was talking to No1Kstate (your “Southerners” you know) and you didn’t understand what the topic was about.
You consider yourself to be acting correct on this blog, it never occurs to you that your actions and words could be the reasons for my reactions.
White racial frame – indeed.
Proud to be an American, or is it Proud to be a complete Idiot? Humm? I must ponder this thought a little while.. Well, maybe it’s really the “laws of the univers” at work here. You know, how the Ingenous People were treated, and now America is going down the “shitter”. Humm? Or maybe it’s because of all the salvery? Lots of stuff to think about. But I do know one thing ,that what comes around, goes around, and it’s about freakin time. I hope all the people that suffered in this country are able to watch , the suffering of those people that put them into that situation.
@jwbe who Once Again Said:“White Americans who are silent now will some day realize that they allowed white extremist groups to come to power which will finally also destroy their white illusional world they have lived throughout white American history.”
You speak out of both sides of your mouth jwbe. On one hand you claim White Americans should stand up against Racism. Then, when one does, You Can’t Find Enough Reasons to Criticize. Your blind hatred of all things white [you won’t even read history because it was written by whites? At least it would give you ‘some’ information to go by or would you rather have a nice old-fashioned book burning like you used to do in Munich in the ‘good old Nazi days’ ? lol] makes you sound psychotic.
Let me say this again: your fanatic hatred of whites is making you behave psychotically. You don’t even make sense anymore. But if you’re going to label all my actions due to ‘white frame’ thinking..well..fair’s fair jwbe…I will surmise your hatred of an entire race must stem from your Nazi Roots. What more can one expect from Heinrich Himmler’s granddaughter? The apple doesn’t fall too far from the Swastika.
hort doch endlich mit dem Quatsch auf! Stop quacking your silly anti-white propaganda and Say Something Useful for a change! You still have not contributed One Book or Website to read yet!
@ jwbe: If your hatred of America really runs as deep as I am observing: Go Back to Munich where Racial Hatred is a True Art Form! Hating All Whites because they’re white is the same pathology as Hating All Blacks because they’re black. Duh!
jwbe said: @ellen, I guess you don’t think it’s odd to be a ‘newbie’ who wants to learn trying to silence somebody who is a ‘veteran’.
Uh..here’s the thing..my opinion is I Don’t Have Much to Learn from someone who Refuses to: 1. Read any history books cause they were written by whites 2. Contribute any reading material or websites of any kind 3. Goes totally batshit just because a new person made the honest mistake of thinking a comment you made [that was how long ago!] was directed at everyone in general instead of one person 4. Attributes Every Negative Human Trait to “White Man” .
Plus, Longevity does not equal Quality. Just because you’ve been swaggering around this blog for who-knows-how-long does not mean you are Not Pathological in your thinking. I consider you irresponsible in the worst extreme: claiming you want whites to call out Racism and then slaughtering newcomers..Why? cause you have previously gotten away with it Just Cause You’re A Veteran? A NON-READING, SILLY, IRRESPONSIBLE VETERAN AT THAT.
@Ellen,
I will continue my search on the world wide web, where the title keeps what it promises: Antiracism.
Some white people here earn their money with ‘combating racism’ and nonetheless can’t manage a comment section which is true to their ideals.
This is in general a huge problem within the white anti-racist ‘movement’.
There is no serious anti-racist exchange possible on this blog.
.
And I realize, I struck a nerve, otherwise you wouldn’t react the way you do. If stupidity hurt, most whites would cry.
Nice try at crazy making on here ellen–ummm, and exactly who is the crackpot?
jwbe ignore this bullshit. I’m thinking this person has some type of issues that involves feeling the need of being the constant center of attention. *sigh*
ellen, enjoy your so-called Ivy league privileged life that makes you blinder than a bat wallowing in bat shit. I know people with no college education who I’d listen to (and actually do by the way) before I’d buy into your crap, power trips, and trippy games.
I’m not even wasting any more time with you, but I would strongly suggest you address your own hypocrisy before you come on here running your mouth as you have been–take an look an honest look at U.S. and North American history. Then ask yourself, what your relatives were doing and who you are a descendant of.
The difference between you and jwbe is one has learned from it and thus is qualified to come on here and make authoritative (in a scholarly sense) contributions and rebuttals and “educate” others, while the other has not and is promoting white supremacy laced with various flavors of racism, in a few different ways. Yes, when this occurs by anybody it does draw attention and it’s going to be addressed by somebody.
Enjoy your white female privilege–it’s a special thing in this society. I hope you keep reading Tim’s work since he seems to be an inspiration to you. And I hope you read all the other important main posts put up on this website by the other authors. At any rate, be well.
jwbe said: “Some white people here earn their money with ‘combating racism’ and nonetheless can’t manage a comment section which is true to their ideals.”
I am an Anti-Racist myself, so in what way are the founders of this site not honoring their anti-racist ideals? Still..No Recommended books by you and no Recommended websites..just sullen chatter.
Do yourself a favor and just look for a website that says: White Anti-White Racists Welcome and you should feel right at home.In the mean time I’ll keep reading. You could read Slavery By Another Name..but oh no..you wouldn’t do that cause the author’s White. That’s what I mean by your pathology.
Mom said: “Anyway, I guess the point that I’m trying to make is that the US Gov. is more interested in taking care of a forein country, rather then spending our money to improve the shape of this country..We just sent 180 million over to Pakanistan. Let me repeat that WE just sent 180 million over to a forein country. Why?”
Hey Mom! How are you today? lol! Um..I would have said Hi before but I was having a little disagreement with jwbe. I know..I know..the jwbe/ellen thing is getting old. I agree.
Anyway, I agree with what you said. Yeah..absolutely. But I think it’s about foreign policy..in other words politics. America wants to control the Middle East for its oil reserves and proximity to China [which is still Communist and thus we feel threatened by them]. So, it’s Not Out of Compassion we send money anywhere if you ask me. It’s for Control. We do thus and thus for Pakistan and they back us in a pinch. Check out the following!
USAID says that we are sending out foreign aid in order to further US policy interests and improve the lives of people in the developing world. However, the effect (and I believe the intention) of much of our foreign aid is really to subjugate developing countries to US business interests. There’s much more on this subject in the excellent book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.
In this book, John Perkins describes how he and others created totally fake economic analyses and used covert threats to convince developing countries to accept loans from the US. They spent the money hiring US companies to build unnecessary infrastructure, and the countries ended up with these “improvements” in exchange for large quantities of debt.
The vast majority of very poor people in these countries received no benefit at all from the “aid”, and became even worse off when their governments were later forced to adopt new policies (such as cutting budgets for education and public health care) in order to put more money into paying off their debts.
I do not want to say that none of our foreign aid is going towards helping people — certainly, if we send food to hungry people in Africa, some of the food will likely go to people who would otherwise have nothing to eat. However, I believe that not much of the foreign aid money is actually helping people, and that this trend needs to be reversed.
http://poplarware.com/HodgBlog/category/foreign-aid/page/2/
I don’t think jwbe hates all whites. I think that maybe dislike the way that this country was set up on the eurocentrism system..I find that maybe jwbee comes off strong because this is her passion. I have learn a lot about “white racial frame” by some ofjjwbe comments. In fact, Joe and Tim are white and they feel they have the same thinking about how our fore father’s 55 of them I believe did not reconize the contributions of the blacks, ingenous, and women that also contibuted to the founding of this country..There is much to learn, and I’ve really just, a little of understand, but what I have learn thus far it true. I wish that both Ellen and jwbe would find mutual ground. I really believe you could learn from each other…I didn’t mean to interfer with you comments, but I like to see people get along or at least find a mutual ground . However, appologises, for the anti statements. have a real soft part for children, and seniors in general.. Thanks, MOM.:)
A classic essay all white people should read if not familiar:
http://www.case.edu/president/aaction/UnpackingTheKnapsack.pdf
And just a kick ass older song for anybody wishing to take a brief intermission and one that speaks in a different language to other folks/lovely’s who may come on here (at this moment it’s added here naturally in response to the protesting folks, Republican Party, and all others who think President Obama is trying to rip off):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjNjJR9jUGo
Here’s the essay under a different link as the first one did not work–try again:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
I truly am beginning to believe that this blog is set up only for the southern people white and black southern people..I finding this a little to be a little scary..So, take care, and jwbe you are right regarding a anit-racist blog not being able to maintain a complete anti racist blog. Moreoever, maybe it’s because this blog is set up for all people from all backgrounds, race, etc. that want to learn about anti-racism. Although, I don’t think YANKEES are welcome, so I’ll just keep reading as much as I can, and tell the other YANKEES about this blog…Thanks, Mom
Seattle said: “The difference between you and jwbe is one has learned from it and thus is qualified to come on here and make authoritative (in a scholarly sense) contributions and rebuttals and “educate” others, while the other has not and is promoting white supremacy laced with various flavors of racism.” Seattle, you’re a very poor LIAR. And so easy to prove In Error!
If you have read NUMEROUS posts I have made on this blog before this thread, you would realize, Mr.Uninformed Person, that I have recommended Many Anti-Racist books and websites since I am a Strong Advocate Against Racism. Jwbe seems to criticize me [check All my posts from the Past Month if you will!] Merely Because I’m White.
She went berserk regarding one of the first posts I wrote because I made the honest mistake of assuming she was addressing the entire blog in general instead of having a “private conversation” with another commentator. And in that particular post I was Actually Empathizing With Her Point of View. You are practicing what’s called “cronyism”. jwbe is your ‘internet friend” so you assume the best from her. You don’t know me, so you assume the worst. jwbe can be extremely sensitive toward New Anti-Racist Whites for whatever perplexing reason.
Instead of welcoming anti-racist whites, she appears to resent anybody sharing “Her Blog”. Wrong approach to winning many more advocates to the Anti-Racist side. This blog is not jwbe’s own personal turf. Although where she acquired this idea, I don’t know.
jwbe herself Called to Action Whites Against Racism. She stated on August 19th on this Blog the following:
“White Americans who are silent now will some day realize that they allowed white extremist groups to come to power which will finally also destroy their white illusional world they have lived throughout white American history.”
I am One of Those White people who speaks AGAINST RACISM and have recommended Slavery By Another Name, Black Like Me, Information about the Lynching of Charles Mack Parker, a Website about how the Media Reports Black Crimes More Often Than White Crimes, and many other informative posts all Against Racism.
Many white people are Anti-Racists and as Tim Wise stated, this movement Needs Whites. However, on this particular website, whites are ridiculed and sneered at by people like jwbe Just Because They’re White. So what gives? Doesn’t make any sense.
Don’t create posts that lie when you have No Idea Regarding a Person’s History on a Particular Blog.
@ Seattle:
Cronyism is partiality to long-standing friends, especially by appointing them to positions of authority, regardless of their qualifications. Hence, cronyism is contrary in practice and principle to meritocracy. Cronyism exists when the appointer and the beneficiary are in social contact; often, the appointer is inadequate to hold his or her own job or position of authority, and for this reason the appointer appoints individuals who will not try to weaken him or her, or express views contrary to those of the appointer. Politically, “cronyism” is derogatorily used.
@Ellen, because you ask for something to read, I would recommend Alice Miller to you, you won’t understand racism without understanding you first.
.
@Seattle
>jwbe ignore this bullshit. I’m thinking this person has some type of issues that involves feeling the need of being the constant center of attention.
.
It’s like pushing a button and what happens then is this what I would like to truly understand. Like Ellens post number 74, creating assumptions about a person and for her it becomes reality.
Also the easyness with which white Americans call others Nazi, this is not the first time I realize this and also not only directed towards me. White Americans display this irrationality right at the moment against Obama and also for them their own myth created in their mind becomes reality.
>jwbe can be extremely sensitive toward New Anti-Racist Whites for whatever perplexing reason.
.
experience. In a Eurocentric society, appearance is more important than true being, and what people claim to be does not necessarily reflect reality.
.
>whites are ridiculed and sneered at by people like jwbe Just Because They’re White. So what gives? Doesn’t make any sense.
.
Exactly, it doesn’t make any sense to be anti-white just because of skin-color, but for you this is the only explanation you want to believe, all other reasons would mean that you actually had to look inside yourself.
But this you are not willing or able to do, therefore you try to create ‘the other’, you try to create me in your image of projecting to disconnect from yourself and problematic attitudes.
Everybody who actually also talks with racists, also with self-proclaimed white “anti-racist” liberals, knows these forms of denial. Everybody of them is familiar with the drama you create.
Listing some books is not anti-racism. Understanding what you read would be the first necessary step.
Hey Ellen, I know my comments are not taken seriously. I don’t have 3 letters by my last name, yet! Working on it. I am a life long student…lololol Truly I am. However, I also have native american blood-line, and practice some of my ancestors customs..So, what I am going to suggest to you may sound a little “off the charts”. Only because I see so much negative comments from a lot of different people, which in turn fills your soul with negative…Please do this because it will help you to calm down…Burn sage incense and meditate … I don’t like seeing people upset at levels where it will end up hurting your soul…I don’t mean this to be a meanie . I mean this to help you clear the negative energy being directed at you.. Thanks for the education about forein polocies.. I kinda knew what you expressed, but don’t agree with it when we have people in this country that are hurting on many different levels..So, with this all being said, I hope you continue with this site, and I hope, that you once in a while burn some sage…Mom:)
Just in case you were wondering what tribe we are from it’s the Lenape tribe, aka, Grandfather, aka Peacemakers. 🙂
jwbe Said:”But this you are not willing or able to do, therefore you try to create ‘the other’, you try to create me in your image of projecting to disconnect from yourself and problematic attitudes.”
Hon, this is Exactly What You are Doing in Regard To Me. You addressed Me First way back when and were very angry because I addressed you when you were having a “secret” conversation with another blogger. Did it ever occur to you that your attempt at disconnecting with other White Americans is your way from avoiding Your own problematic behavior? You don’t Believe that Any White Americans are Anti-Racists? Then why did you make that phoney call for “White Americans to Stand Up” if you don’t believe any white anti-racists exist? You make my arguments for me with your peculiar circular reasoning.
You said this on August 21st: ” And just in case you didn’t get it so far: This site is about racism, and not ‘white people’s pain’ “.
You Don’t Call this “Othering”? Again, this was because of a 2-sentence sentiment I expressed to Mom and You Just Couldn’t Let It Go. You are Literally Following me Around. Why?
Why don’t you address Darin? Too much work right? Seriously, I think this deserves an answer. I think I’m relatively innocuous compared to Darin.
White People’s Pain..now that’s an interesting way to put it. Guess what jwbe? I don’t want to hear about Your Pain either. You are the Ultimate Otherer. So full of bitter confusion that now you claim I’m not really an Anti-Racist and apparently you’re the only one who can see this by telepathy no doubt. You are projecting your own fears of being a True Racist Yourself onto ellen?
Demonizing Whites in General and me in particular makes You Not Have To Look Inside Yourself. All your specious psychological platitudes are Too Ridiculous.
What you truly desire is to be on some Undemocratic Website where jwbe gets to decide who is Sincerely Anti-Racist and who isn’t. Good Luck in your search. Be Well as Seattle says.
I don’t truly dislike you, I just find you a very confused little person who engages in Othering constantly and then accusing others of doing it. Bizarre really. Perhaps you’ve been doing this so long you are becoming seriously disoriented about Whose Side of the Spectrum People are On.
@ Mom:
Hi Mom! First of all: You’re a lovely person. I, for one, take you very seriously! Believe me, I Listen to What you Say from the Heart much more than the twaddle thrown at me here. You are a Great Kind-Hearted Person Filled With Common Sense and Great Courage forged from many Tough practical life experiences…something most people on this website lack substantially.
They talk a good game with all their ‘silly letters after their name’ but put them in the real world and I suspect they’d fold like a stack of worn-out cards.
Plus, I totally agree with your advice about relaxing and forgetting all this negativity. I think this website is really being selfishly dominated by the veterans and new speakers are NOT really welcome at all! I should never have to defend myself if I came on here with a positive, optimistic attitude. But outsiders are just not accepted well.
Frankly, I’m tired of all the arguing and you’re Right: It is wearing on my soul. Instead of an Anti-Racist White being welcomed, we are put through some kind of psychological obstacle course of cruel, silly comments as if We’re the Enemy and not the KKK for Pete’s Sake!
The bottom line is that I think the older commentators are Very Territorial about this blog and will make new people feel miserable so they’ll just give up and leave. It totally defeats the purpose of the Blog and I still don’t know why Joe and Jessie don’t formerly address this.
I would so enjoy it if all the bloggers were like you: friendly, sincere, honest without this huge proverbial chip on the shoulder and Suspicion of New People.
How can there be Solidarity Between Anti-Racists on this site if older bloggers refuse to make new ones feel accepted and comfortable? I really should leave this space myself, and find a blog where I can exchange and receive anti-racist literature and websites without having to defend myself Just For Being Ellen. I can’t help it if I’m white. Why should I apologize merely for being a White American? The hostility on this site is depressing really.
I Am going to try and relax. And if I had some incense I would burn it. I own my own business that I very much enjoy doing. This website first thing in the morning Does Not Help Me Start my day in a happy mood. I’m going to drink some herb tea and seriously think about just leaving this blog for good. But, thanks so much for All Your Kind Words. You are a Lovely Person! Zillions of letters after your name cannot ever take the place of Life Experience and Real Kindness and Compassion.
Frankly, I wish we Could Both Find a Blog where people are more welcoming and tolerant of new commentators wherein all races, religions, backgrounds are welcome to add richness and diversity. God Bless You! I’m off to drink my tea. 🙂
Hmm…. very informative comments. I have been quiet for the last few posts to reflect and fine-tune my racial awareness.
@mom – Sage huh? I would love to know more about this.
…carry on.
@ ellen: If you go back and re-read prior posts, which I’m sure you have, you’ll see this trend of divide and conquer. It’s extremely disheartening that we as whites who come here (and stick around through all the chiding) are suspect. On several occasions I have been told by commenter’s that “Its not our responsibility to educate you”. But I digress…. If we ever hope to achieve quasi-racial equality (because real racial equality won’t happen in our lifetimes at this rate) then anti-racists poc and whites need to use honey rather than vinegar to attract members into their movement.
–
My view is that I, as a white female, have the luxury to retreat back into my safe haven of white supremacy. Although deep down, I may not want to do this, if pushed back into it, I will. How potential anti-racists get pushed back [into their comfort zone of the more covert forms of white supremacy] is the lack of understand and patience that POC have with this slow and painful process.
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So basically, whites have nothing to lose in this conversation, while the oppressed have everything to lose by not getting the equality they deserve.
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As for jwbe, Im confused. Since she is an anti-racist white, I figured she would be understanding to our [white female] experience in relation to racism and give us help in our unique situation. Rather, she is jaded and not interested in welcoming us into this anti-racist blogosphere. *sigh*
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I hope my post made some sense Ellen. Im suffering from allergies so my head feels like its stuffed with cotton!! lol
Hello everyone. I haven’t followed the entire dialogue here, so please excuse me if this has been said before, or if it seems non-germane to the discussion, I would like to offer the following to ellen, as someone who does value the input of “newbies” so to speak, but as someone who also shares some of the serious frustrations of jwbe when it comes to white “anti-racists.” (And I say all this as one who is an aspiring white ally, trying my hardest to be antiracist).
Ellen, it is totally natural and understandable to be upset and put off when you feel you are being personally attacked. What I think it is important to remember, and what I always try and remember in this work is one simple rule: this is not personal, it’s “business” so to speak. In other words, undoing racism and ending white supremacy is the work of a lifetime. If it were easy, it would have been done by now. Folks of color have every reason to a) be angry about white racism, b) doubt seriously the commitment of we white folks in the struggle, and c) be more inclined to judge actions rather than words. For us to get upset about the seemingly unfair burden placed upon us to prove our bonafides, is to ask for a benefit of the doubt that is frankly dangerous for folks of color to extend to us. The history of white “allies” dropping the ball and backing away when it gets tough it too great for folks of color to ignore.
Listen, no one likes having their commitment doubted. I know I don’t. But I’ve learned to roll with it. Ultimately, I remind myself that I am not fighting racism “for” black and brown folks. It is not charity work. Thus, whether folks of color trust my commitment or not is totally beside the point. I am fighting racism/white supremacy because a) I think it distorts my humanity to receive privileges and advantages based on race, b) I think white supremacy is at the root of much of the ecological crisis and militarism that threatens life on the planet, and c) I can already see in my children the damage that white supremacy does to their thinking (and that is IN SPITE of their being raised in an anti-racist home). Once you allow yourself to remember that this is not charity, but frankly, self-help, being looked at skeptically by folks of color won’t make you angry, but rather, it will serve as a catalyst for even greater commitment: not to “prove” something to folks of color, but to make ever more concrete your commitment to yourself and all humanity.
This is, very simply, the cross that white folks get to bear (pardon the Christian imagery, especially coming from me, a non-practicing Jew). The burden of proof is on us, for reasons that may seem unfair, but which are written in the history books, and with the blood of those who have died fighting this system. There is no need to let defensiveness derail us. When I get attacked or critiqued by those who doubt my sincerity, commitment, etc., I try to take to heart the valid part of the skepticism (of which there is often quite a bit), and let the rest roll off me. To do anything else is to let all this work become about me. And it isn’t about me. It is about us. There is too much at stake to let our personal ego and validation needs detract from the work we need to do in order to save all of us from the almost certain destruction that white supremacy will bring.
Also, one of the many consequences of white privilege is that it has tainted/skewed our perceptions and evaluations of race and racial matters. As a white person who is striving to be anti-racist, I think we need people like KState, Nquest, jwbe, & Dr. Feagin to call us out when we ‘step in it’ racially, so we can apologize (because they probably have more experience in the matter) and try to further hone our racial perspective.
@Tim
Thank you Tim for taking the time to make these very valid points. Don’t worry about one issue: it really would not be possible for me to down play the destruction that white supremacy has the potential to wreak. Once realized, you can’t really logically go back. I am merely disheartened about My Treatment here, but I’ll think about the repercussions of leaving..which are considerable. I thought I had a thick skin..but this is hard.
@ Siss;
Thank you very much for your post also. And it certainly does make perfect sense to me..cause I experienced it. All points well taken!
@Ellen,
‘Othering is a way of defining and securing one’s own positive identity through the stigmatization of an “other.” Whatever the markers of social differentiation that shape the meaning of “us” and “them,” whether they are racial, geographic, ethnic, economic or ideological, there is always the danger that they will become the basis for a self-affirmation that depends upon the denigration of the other group.’
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~ulrich/rww03/othering.htm
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What you are doing is creating an image about me based on your assumptions and stereotypes. You questioned my (school) education, called me the granddaughter of Heinrich Himmler, stereotyped my grand-parents, think that I would hate whites, would not read white authors/historians, would be in favor of book burning etc. All these things are your stereotypes about me, and it helps you to feel like the victim who is the undetected real anti-racist.
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I did not make assumptions about you, I read what you wrote.
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>Why don’t you address Darin? Too much work right? Seriously, I think this deserves an answer.
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People who don’t want to learn won’t learn. Darin is here to willfully disrupt this blog and nothing else and I personally would ban him. The internet and real world offers enough space for persons like him they can occupy. It’s a waste of time addressing him. There is no history that whites would change their ‘hearts and minds’, it took always political pressure. There is no history in reaching out to an empathy which collectively is not their in any European culture.
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>Perhaps you’ve been doing this so long you are becoming seriously disoriented about Whose Side of the Spectrum People are On.
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Being against racism is one thing, trying to dismantle white supremacy is something very different. People stuck in the ‘white racial frame’ will also approach and understand all what they read with this ‘white racial frame’. This is the problem when trying to ‘educate’ whites about the whiteness they are in.
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And yes, as Tim said ‘I think it distorts my humanity to receive privileges and advantages based on race’ and it also is against my humanity to create in-groups according the demand of society: White should be my in group and People of Color the ‘other’, the ‘out-group’.
It degrades me to know that I live in a society where my skin-color is more important than who I am. Where other whites approach me based on their assumptions of ‘race solidarity’ and where a society attempts from birth on to deform children to make them ‘white’.
> then anti-racists poc and whites need to use honey rather than vinegar to attract members into their movement.
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if you can’t see it as your movement, why using ‘honey’?
And why do you demand victims of oppression to be nice (honey) to their oppressors? Do you think human rights are only for those who are nice to whites?
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And what is it about those whites, tell me, believing that they can insult but feeling like a victim when others don’t kiss your azz for being here.
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But also this is the mirror of white privilege and white entitlement
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@Tim
>but as someone who also shares some of the serious frustrations of jwbe when it comes to white “anti-racists.”
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and what are you doing then?
jwbe said: “And what is it about those whites, tell me, believing that they can insult but feeling like a victim when others don’t kiss your azz for being here.”
Hon, nobody’s asking their “Azz” to be kissed. Just not kicked! Remember You were the one who started in on Me way back 2 weeks ago. Not the reverse. Again jwbe: You Will Lose This War Because You Can’t Fight It All Alone! Because of People Who are Blind With Anger Like Yourselves, Black Citizens will suffer ultimately.
Again, you’re not black, just a cheap imitation. So save the righteous anger Whitey! Stop playing: “Gatekeeper For the Cause”. Never forget: you are a white descendant of a genocidal society who used to throw Jewish babies up in the air for target practice, feed Jewish people to German Shepherds, throw live children screaming into burning furnaces , do open-heart surgery as ‘experiments’ on Jews without anesthesia, and then throw their remains in open pits for fertilizer.
Your ancestry isn’t exactly spotless either Fraulein. You got alot of soul searching to do yourself! So please SHUT UP and allow anti-racists whites to post in peace. You’re a Menace to this Site! And a detriment to the true cause of Anti-Racism! Again, ultimately the people who will suffer if you chase all the Whites away with your egotistical Ranting is Poor Black Citizens.
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@ JWBE: Where did I get the idea that you wouldn’t Read History Written By White Authors? From You Hon! Read your post below dated August 17th where you write that “education is irrelevant”. Sounds like the old Book Burning Nights in Munich song to me! So, we’re just supposed to take JWBE’s perceptions as Gospel and the hell with education huh? Bull! You are Delusional!
168.jwbe Says:
August 17th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
>I specifically said I would welcome other reactions
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I told you my reaction, and I can see now your reaction towards me;-) You try to nullify my knowledge and my experiences.
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>1. What college did you graduate from [if indeed you went at all]?
2. What country are you from?
3. What is your First Language if English is your second?
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1. education is irrelevant when it comes to real life knowledge, most of all in a system of white supremacy where education is eurocentric.
2. Germany
3. see above;-)
169.ellen says Says:
August 17th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
jwbe said: “1. education is irrelevant when it comes to real life knowledge, most of all in a system of white supremacy where education is eurocentric.”
Wow. You really hard core. There’s still a tremendous amount you can learn from written history..including the history of minorities. But, if you want to take the stance, “I’m not reading history, and I don’t have to cause It’s All Eurocentric!”..that’s fine.
@ JWBE: You have a problem trusting people on this site who profess to be Anti-Racist Whites?
Well, I Have a Problem Trusting You! You come from a society who was responsible for 70 MILLION DEATHS! And you want carte blanche on this Website? What in the World Are You Thinking! Again, before you throw stones at anyone, I suggest you investigate your own Aryan Racist Demons!
World War II casualty statistics vary greatly. Estimates of total dead range from 50 million to over 70 million.[36] The sources cited on this page document an estimated death toll in World War II of 61 to 77 million, making it the deadliest war ever. When scholarly sources differ on the number of deaths in a country, a range of war losses is given,in order to inform readers that the death toll is uncertain. Civilians killed totaled from 40 to 52 million, including 13 to 20 million from war-related disease and famine. Total military dead: from 21 to 25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
@ jwbe I read your address at Ellen, but I would like to ask you a question. When you speak about your humanitarian beliefs, white privileges, and the political pressure that it takes for whites to change their hearts about their whiteness that they are stuck in. Then how come nothing was mentioned on this site about our Presidents speach to the NAACP about opening it’s doors to the humanitarian/ human rights activist groups, which the NAACP said NO! I would think, that would of been upsetting for all humanitarians,. I really would like to know what your thoughts are about that topic. MOM/Thanks
@ sis Sorry to hear that you suffer from allergies. I do myself, but I found that salt solutions help clear up your nose ,so that you would be able to breath.. Also, sweet grass would be another incense to burn, but I enjoy the scent of sage…MOM:)
I’m with jwbe: we shouldn’t have to use “honey” to attract “potential” anti-racist whites. The stuff some of you say is incredibly inaccurate and insulting. To demand that anti-racist poc be patient in the face of such vinegar, as it were, is the height of white privilege and superiority. True, you can retreat back into your comfortable white privilege. But then, you were never really potentially anything, were you?
~
@ distance88 – Thanks for the shout out, Homie!
@ No1KState:
You’re black. JWBE is not. Yet she is full of hatred and pretends to speak from a black mouth.
She was the one who stated :“White Americans who are silent now will some day realize that they allowed white extremist groups to come to power which will finally also destroy their white illusional world they have lived throughout white American history.”
Then when White Anti-Racists try to join this site they get sneered at..By Her. No1KState: Do you want Whites here or not? Simple Question which requires a Simple Answer. If you, as a black woman, don’t want Whites to Help then say so.
Don’t change the subject please regarding the “honey” issue. All Siss was trying to say is that Anybody who posts here with good intentions would like to be treated with courtesy. Again, are whites welcome here or not? Yes or No?
And please don’t play the white as victim line either. Nobody’s claiming to be a victim. Whites are simply Confused. They come here trying give their support via their Anti-Racist stance and many of their posts are treated with contempt as in “What are You doing here?” So, was JWBE lying when she asked whites to stand up or what?
Again, are Whites welcome or not? White people with All Kinds of Different Background Do Want to Help..but if you want to hand pick ‘just the ones wearing green shirts’ or ‘just the ones driving Hondas’ you will have a severe shortage of help. But you’re the boss. You’re the Black Lady who is in the Oppressed Group. You decide. And I’m being totally sincere.
@ jwbe – fair question for me: because I am frustrated by white antiracism as theory and practice, I challenge myself to be a more effective and accountable ally to people of color; I speak openly and honestly about those frustrations while — and this is the important part–NEVER consciously seeking to create a wall between the “good whites” and the “bad whites” where I am on one side and “they” are on the other. In white supremacy, whites are whites, though we are capable of turning against whiteness. I mean by that that we are still implicated and cannot afford to be smug: about our frustrations, our angers, our hurts, and our own screw ups. We have to own those. I tend to do so in a very public way because of my elevated voice in this work: my stuff is “out there” to where I end up having to think thru how I talk to folks on a daily
@Ellen, you get some historical facts wrong or leave them out. At the end everybody could have been a victim of Hitler’s Germany, also those considered “Aryan”. Those Germans resisting in whatever way, did not just do it to ‘help Jews”.
The ‘true cause’ is not just ‘helping’ Black people, something you don’t understand. And the one who is angry is you, lol.
>Yet she is full of hatred and pretends to speak from a black mouth.
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Your perception
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>Do you want Whites here or not?
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Stupid question, the owners of this blog are white and so are many members. You come here with your blinding white entitlement which distorts also your comprehension skills and this is what I address. Good intentions aren’t enough.
@Tim,
>because I am frustrated by white antiracism as theory and practice, I challenge myself to be a more effective and accountable ally to people of color; I speak openly and honestly about those frustrations while — and this is the important part–NEVER consciously seeking to create a wall between the “good whites” and the “bad whites” where I am on one side and “they” are on the other.
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and what are you doing then? Ellens or Siss reaction isn’t unique to whites and exactly this is one problem in white anti-racism. Being an ally also means making white anti-racism more effective, but often white anti-racism continues racism exactly because of white lack of insight. An example are the German Greens at the moment, they published a racist add and are in the same denial about this like Ellen, “this add can’t be racist because we are for equal rights and we are anti-racist”. And in addition they feel like victims, they feel ‘censored’ because they had to remove the add
@Ellen
this:
>education is irrelevant when it comes to real life knowledge, most of all in a system of white supremacy where education is eurocentric.”
Für Dich, Du Leuchte:
education is irrelevant when it comes to real life knowledge means: If somebody has a college degree, is a school drop-out, or visits university is irrelevant. School is not the only place where somebody can gain KNOWLEDGE.
@Ellen
Knowledge is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as (i) expertise, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject, (ii) what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information or (iii) awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.[…]
Knowledge acquisition involves complex cognitive processes: perception, learning, communication, association and reasoning. The term knowledge is also used to mean the confident understanding of a subject with the ability to use it for a specific purpose if appropriate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge
It has been my understanding that this site , and please correct me if I’am wrong, that people of all races have been “brainwashed” into thinking in the “whiteframed” way, since the birth of our nation. Now, with that being said, I have to suspect that when people of all race come here they “feel” they are being singled out, especially if they are “white” because of the “eurocenrism” way of thinking. In other words, because of the “white” people ansestor’s being “white” they feel their being blamed for how we ALL people are brainwashed in the “white framed way”.. This certainly is NOT ture ,periord.. We are all born into this world by chance not choise. However, this “way” of looking at racism, is certainly above and beyound any thought process that most any person would not understand, and that’s why I decided to investigate the ture meaning. And, moreover, because of the “higher order of thinking”, regarding racism it would allow all people from all race to stand together for the common good of all people from all race and say YEAH what’s up with that? I know this sounds a little silly, but I only know a little about the topic, but have a sincere desire to learn more.
@ Ellen, I have to say, that I didn’t know have the stuff the Nazi did, but not all Germans people were involved at least I don’t think all German people were involved. Anyway, I was thinking..We as white people and I’m really not 100% white, but we as white people that were born after all the hardships and I really can’t put into words the suffering that the black endured because there are no words strong enough, but in general, do not want to hear about what our “fore father’s” whites did because for one is shocking, and the other it’s unbelieveable. I mean the way some people can treat each other even today is just unbelievable. So, although, JWbe has a German background, I don’t think sher is responsible for what her family did to the JEWS . JWbe is only responsible for how she treats people today..
We cannot ever make up for past mistakes or excuses for what our “Fore Family’s” did, but we can make DAM sure that it NEVER happens again! However, again, we must look at those errors first, which is very painful for most of us to do, but then again, must be done, in order not to repeat them. “We must unite for the common good of all humanhood.” Otherwise, we will certainly parish as has happend many times thoughtout history..Maybe this why I like the animals of the wild because although there are many different species they get along a little better then most humans begins. I am going to say many prayers and blessing today for all of you..MOM;)
JWBE Said: “Being an ally also means making white anti-racism more effective, but often white anti-racism continues racism exactly because of white lack of insight.”
And who’s going to give all the Anti-Racists Insight JWBE? You?
Did you not Read Tim’s post? Tim is a nationally recognized lecturer on Racism. He wrote White Like Me [oh, I forgot you don’t read cause “knowledge is defined by expertise through Experience and Not Just Reading.”] He Knows How to Persuade/Disuade/Engage an Entire Room Full of People. He’s been on National Television CNN!
I’m sorry, but you can’t even convince 4 or 5 white people on One Blog of your Astuteness/ Intelligence/ Sincerity/Expertise. Why Don’t You Listen to Someone Else [namely Tim] for a change? If you really want to gather devotees to your cause, And This Isn’t About Your Own Pride, then do what Tim suggested. Stop trying to Separate Yourself from Whitness. Stop trying to conscously divide the Good Whites from the Bad Whites. And lastly, TAKE OWNERSHIP FOR YOUR OWN WHITENESS, ANGERS, FRUSTRATIONS, SCREW-UPS! You asked him for advice, so take it!
JWBE: Said “If somebody has a college degree, is a school drop-out, or visits university is irrelevant. School is not the only place where somebody can gain KNOWLEDGE.”
Oh..and this is good. yeah, I love this one. I hope all the Black High School Kids who are trying to get college loans Never Read Your Remarks JWBE. We should encourage black students In Every Way to seek an education. And here you are advocating knowledge without an education..gained where JWBE? Don’t tell me..at the nightly Octoberfest Book Burning Parties in Munich.
Once again, I just don’t see you as an expert of Anything. I graduated from Cornell and you graduated from Germany. You are a German immigrant whose Second Language is German. You never went to college but have read a few sociology articles and now consider yourself an expert.
Enough of an expert to get on a site like this and be glib and arrogant and decide who gets to be the Anti-Racist and who doesn’t concerning an issue Which Is A Matter Of Life and Death to Millions of Black Americans…the Eradication of Racism.
First you call to arms White Anti-Racists, then you proceed to take all your Aryan Racist frustrations out on them? Own Your Own Demons JWBE..cause I think you are Full of Them.
JWBE Said:”Ellen, you get some historical facts wrong or leave them out. At the end everybody could have been a victim of Hitler’s Germany, also those considered “Aryan”. Those Germans resisting in whatever way, did not just do it to ‘help Jews”.
Please don’t make excuses for German Nationalism to me. Not after the deaths of 70 MILLION PEOPLE! Germans to this day have this absurd “ethnic pride” in being Germanic. I’ve been to Germany twice and I saw Plenty of Racism alive and well there! So don’t try to hang any medals of honor on Germany. ich werde keinen Unsinn!
JWBE said: “Those Germans resisting in whatever way, did not just do it to ‘help Jews”.
Now this I can Believe! Nobody Ever Did Anything in Germany to Help Jews!
To the BLACK CITIZENS ON THE BLOG:
Here’s the thing..White People Who Really Care about our society and its future do want to help. But you can’t expect them to 1.Help 2.While taking Insults too. [LIKE FROM JWBE.]
And please don’t hand me the meme: “This is a White Sentiment!” Whites don’t like being Insulted anymore than Blacks do. Anybody who says any different is LYING. This is So Simple: Why make a big sociological issue out of this? Yes, whites have had it Much easier than blacks. We already acknowledge this or we wouldn’t be here.
So it all boils down to: Do you want whites to help or not? If you don’t and you feel [in your heart of hearts] that it’s insulting to accept help from whites..then I, for one, will leave. No Problem. I also think I’m not the first to feel the extreme Anti-White Sentiment here…no matter how well-intentioned the white ‘pledges’ to this fraternity were. Which also means on your end: Stop With the Phoney CALLING WHITES to ARMS Cause Ya Really Don’t Mean It. Thanks.
Trying to wrench this thread back on track, it may be useful to check out Dr. John Raible’s ‘Checklist for Allies Against Racism’:
http://johnraible.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/revised-2009-checklist-for-allies.pdf
(which I grabbed from http://raceproject.org/ThisWeekInRace.html)
I really really like this site; I just wish, sometimes, that the tenor of comments were a little less…like they are.
Anyway, enjoy the checklist. In the organization I work, we require all employees and Board members to go through anti-racism training and this list has helped clarify to both POC and our white peers how much self-work has to go into being anti-racist.
One can’t be passive or reactionary; it’s all intentional, intellectual and spiritual/psychological work that has to be done.
@Ellen, I have learned a lot about racism and how whiteness works with having “dialogue” with people like you.
And therefore this thread could be educating for others, realizing your reaction which unfortunately is very common among whites.
And perhaps somebody here knows the secret how to get through to people in denial.
@Ellen,
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http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/palepathology.html
@ ding:
I read that Check List For Allies Against Racism on the site you recommended. It was like nothing I’ve ever seen before! Very neat {for lack of a better adjective}. I would recommend this to everyone. It’s sort of a consciousness raising check list.
I also, believe it or not, wish everybody could be nice to each other here. I know I sound pretty reactional to a new person..I’m really very nice though {And I don’t want anyone to say I’m not. You know who you are. Thanks.}
Seriously, my “beef” is that White Anti-Racists come to this site with good intentions and some of the veterans “get on our case” cause we don’t all the sociological jargon or something equally silly. It’s frustrating cause the white people here really want peace. We just wish the older commentators would cut us some slack.
@ JWBE: Thank you for the website with the Tim Wise speech. It was brilliant, as Tim Wise’s speeches and observations usually are.
@ Mom: All points well taken. However, I absolutely cannot see how everything a white person says and does [according to JWBE] can be contributed to “Whiteness.” This is absurd. What about the individual’s own experiences, feelings, and perceptions? Isn’t that valid?
Black citzens would totally resent it if I attributed everything they said/did/thought to their “Blackness” as in “You’re such saying that cause you’re Black”…”my conversation with you tells me alot about Blackness”.. “you need to erase Blackness from your thinking” etc. This totally negates Any Regard For the Person as an Individual Human Being.
I don’t think JWBE is not a good person per se..I just think she’s almost pathological in Her Denial of seeing hardly any goodness/kindness/empathy in White. Everything White Is Negative and Pathological according to her. This Does Not Strike Me As Healthy..it’s Extreme and [to me] Her approach is the pathology.
Plus, I think my point was well taken, which she side-stepped nicely, about the calling whites to action, and then proceeding to berate them incessantly. I asked her: “Do you want Whites here or not?”
She replied:
“Stupid question, the owners of this blog are white and so are many members. You come here with your blinding white entitlement which distorts also your comprehension skills and this is what I address. Good intentions aren’t enough.”
This is Not treating “Her Call” for whites to speak out now against racism with anything resembling acceptance.
This is like inviting a group of neighborhood people over for a barbecue. Then when the neighbors arrive yelling at them, “Who the hell invited you..you lousy crappy people! Get out! Just accepting my invitation and bringing food isn’t enough! Why do you think you can come here in your Neighborhood Attitude like you actually belong and think I’ll welcome you!” Well..Hello! That’s the last time anybody will attend one of Her Barbecues! That’s my point.
JWBE is over the top here. I think she is using this site to soothe Her Own pathology by badgering, badgering, and more badgering of anything White.
Tim Wise specifically told her: ” NEVER consciously seeking to create a wall between the “good whites” and the “bad whites” where I am on one side and “they” are on the other. In white supremacy, whites are whites, though we are capable of turning against whiteness. I mean by that that we are still implicated and cannot afford to be smug: about our frustrations, our angers, our hurts, and our own screw ups. We have to own those. ”
She hasn’t taken Any of His advice. Tim has a healthy psychology and he is obviously Emphatically Anti-Racist. I just don’t think JWBE has a healthy psyche. My opinion. Anybody who is so unwilling to self-examine and consistently points All Ills at “It’s Other People! It’s Not Me..It’s Never Me!” needs to stop and look oneself in the mirror.
Also, as I stated before: The Best Intentioned White People In the World are simply not going to put up with this harrassment! Blacks wouldn’t, so why should whites? This is Not asking anybody to “kiss azz”..but can’t White Anti-Racists at least be Not Harrassed? What the Hell! You ask us to help and then kick us. Nope..Not Helping Your Cause.
@ Mom:
Also, I am making the point that Not Every Decision I make/ No Everything I say/ Not Everything I think is a Reflection of the White Racial Frame. This sight has indeed opened my eyes to the fact that some of what I do/say/think Is Indeed a reflection of that and that to be an effective Anti-Racist we must acknowledge this. But there comes a point that is pathological.
Many of my decisions are based on my personal background/preferences/ tastes/ beliefs. They are Not the result of brain-washing or white entitlement. If I choose white ranch dressing over a darker vinegarette..this does not mean I’m doing it cause I’ve been brainwashed or cause I’m white. If I like reading mystery books over adventure stories..this does not mean I’m doing it cause I’ve been brainwashed or cause I’m white. I happen to HATE American television except for National Geographic , The History Channel, and CNN. Nobody “white” held a gun to my head and made me do this. I simply think watching Jessica Simpson comb her hair on Reality TV is positively Inane. Plus, I don’t do cause I’m white, I do it cause..watching Jessica Simpson comb her hair on Reality TV is positively Inane. Get My Point?
I also have a high school teacher Black Friend who agrees with me that American Television just keeps getting more and more tasteless. He also likes to watch the History Channel and the Biography one [whatever the name of it is]. Is he doing this cause he’s been brainwashed? No.
You can take Any philosophy to an extreme where it Doesn’t Apply/Make Sense/Is Pathological. Hitler took his German Nationalism to an extreme. Hitler took Everything he believed to an extreme..Raving and Shouting and Screaming..again psychotic.
I made some comments about racism being alive and well in Germany. Did I make these comments cause I was white? No. Cause I have black friends who traveled in Europe and they said they didn’t Even Go to Germany because they heard it was so Racist. I have Jewish friends who Also traveled in Europe but avoided Germany.
JWBE would have me believe that every breath I take is a reflection of the white racial frame. I think some things I do Are a Reflection of the White Racial Frame and should be rectified in my thinking..which I am willing to examine else I wouldn’t be here. But no..not every comment I make reflects the boogy man..”white racial frame.” That’s psychotic, extremist thinking.
Ellen, who needs enemies with alleged allies like you.
Hi Ellen, I think you missed your calling and should of been a Lawyer LOL I say this in a loving way because Man if I were ever in a debate I certainly would want you my side. LOL
As mentioned before, Has nothing to do with “white” it has something to do with “eurocentrism”. At least this is how I’m getting to understand the topic a little better…And, I have to say that “white” are treated better, however, maybe it’ has to do with fact the we make up 74% of the total population? Although, that may be true, we are kind of a mixed puppy and not pure breed..In other words, Irish, Italian, Germans, Scott, Ducth , to name a few, co-mingled at little? LOLO I have much to learn yet, but this site has been an “eye opening” experience for me…I know many people from all walks of life, and what I have found out a long the way, is that peo pel,in general, just wanted to be given a little respect. Anyway, got to run ,off to work to talk about DEATH. MOM:)
@Ellen, there is something you won’t be able to understand, I guess, with your lack of comprehension skills:
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>Stop trying to Separate Yourself from Whitness.
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I don’t separate myself from whiteness but even if this system of white supremacy wants to define my ‘in groups’ and ‘out groups’, I will define for myself who belongs to my ‘in group’ and who not. For me, whites are not automatically ‘we’ and People of Color ‘them’. ‘Them’ are those working against me. I don’t have to ‘convince’ whites just because they are white. I have no problem to share my knowledge with those whites who actually want to get a deeper understanding and also understand that the first difficult work they have to do is their own psyche.
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Those who perpetrate white supremacy are whites. White not just via skin-color but mind-set. And as it was with Nazi Germany, nobody tried to convince Nazis to become allies in combatting Nazi Germany. They were opponents. All else would be foolish.
Anti-racism isn’t just helping Black people, it’s a way of life. Nothing you announce ‘hey, here I am, I am an anti-racist.’ You are or you are not. If you are you don’t feel the need to prove it. You will be firm in yourself and no ‘attack’, no questioning of your sincerity will lead to defensiveness because you also would understand, why others would question you.
You have a very long way to go, here are many people much more experienced in combatting racism than you, many of your defensiveness comes from non-experience and non-knowledge about racism and combatting racism.
And when anybody of those experienced here believes that I act wrong towards you he or she can tell me and show me how s/he thinks it ‘works’. Because this is what this blog wants to be about, therefore sharing experiences would be cool.
>I have Jewish friends who Also traveled in Europe but avoided Germany.
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I think one doesn’t need much empathy to understand that individual Jews never (again) want to travel to Germany. Unlike Black Americans most Jews can make the choice whether they want to live in Germany or not, means, being exposed to their former oppressors and murderers or not.
Most didn’t have to ‘integrate’ after WWII into a society that wanted to exterminate them.
Today Germany has the fastest growing Jewish community.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/travel/article/the_new_germany_20020104/
In addition there is no public making fun about Jews, no right-wingers who get TV space or radio shows to incite racial hate against Jews, no stereotypes about Jews go mainstream, Konzentrationslager are memorial camps (unlike Plantations in the US), displaying Nazi-propaganda is a hate-crime etc.
Germany is far from being perfect, but it’s an important first step
Ellen,
Don’t take this the wrong way, but there is that saying “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” And what’s more than that, it is nearly impossible to convey real ‘intentions’ (and exceedingly easy to fabricate ‘good intentions’) via the internet. Many many people use the anonymity of the internet/comments sections as a shield to hide behind all sorts of ugly speech and behavior. Without all of the context of real world contact and communication, we just have no way absolute way of knowing.
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And on the point of “newbies” vs “veterans” (and I’m not accusing you of this, just reminding): when you are trying to earn respect and credibility in a new environment, sort of like a guest at someone’s home, it’s not a good idea to track mud on their carpet, not use a coaster, put your feet on the table, criticize the wallpaper, and dictate what the conversations are going to be about. You have to give some respect to take some.
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Here’s another resource that addresses some of things that have been expressed in these comments:
http://resistracism.wordpress.com/racism-101/
@ distance 88:
I went to the website and there’s nothing there I personally disagree with. Your points about being a guest in someone’s home are well taken. However, to be honest, the only issue I have is being [and this is how I see it ..again my perception] Invited [via JWBE’s post I reiterated a while ago on this thread] and then saying stuff like “This site is about Racism..Not White Pain!” when I exchanged a 2-sentence sympathetic response to Mom’s story about losing 5 siblings. I mean..c’mon..when does humanity go out the window in JWBE’s constant quest for ‘edifying’ all us dummies.
The thing is, I think this is a great website. I have Not gone around criticizing Everybody [hence the putting my feet on the table analogy]. I simply feel I have something to offer and would like to be a part of this. But, you must know, with all due respect distance 88, that not all whites who answer the call to Anti-Racism are going to be Exactly What “Gatekeeper” JWBE have in mind. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences.
I never came here trying to “throw my weight around”. I Honestly don’t feel that’s my place. But JWBE is very quick on the trigger. Our Initial Encounter was when I made the Honest Mistake of responding [by agreeing with Her!] to a post she was addressing to No1KState. How would I know this? I didn’t, and she gave me a pretty nasty slap as in: “I wasn’t talking to you!!!”
Again, there’s a fine line in being instructive and just being a mean-spirited witch. That’s Personal…that’s not about White Racial Frame etc. If you notice, Tim Wise does not address people in the manner she does. Again, look at the long range benefits here. Whites who want to help will not take the harrassment of a shrew. There’s a Difference between Instruction and hurling insults.
But I thank you for your post and your courtesy. People Do Respond to Courtesy. Whites [believe it or not] are people too.
@ distance 88: Check this out. It’s from ding’s website contribution. People who want to work TOGETHER toward eradicating racism would do well [including JWBE and Myself and All of Us] to self examine once in a while.
I can strategize and work in coalition with diverse others to advance anti-racist work.
_____ I attend to group dynamics to ensure the participation of people of different races.
_____ I support and validate the comments and actions of people of color and other allies (but not
in a paternalistic manner).
_____ I strive to share power, especially with people from marginalized groups.
_____ I take a personal interest in the lives and welfare of individuals of different races.
_____ I use my privilege to communicate information from the dominant group to marginalized
groups.
_____ I hold high expectations for people of color and for white people.
_____ I reach out to initiate personal contact with people of different races.
_____ I listen carefully so that I am more likely to understand the needs of people from
marginalized groups.
_____ I can adopt and articulate a person of color’s point of view when it is useful to do so.
_____ I can accept leadership from people of color as well as from white people.
_____ I work side-by-side with people of different races on tasks, projects, and actions.
_____ I debrief with people of different races to give and receive “reality checks” and
affirmations after meetings, events, and actions.
_____ I readily understand—with no explanations necessary—a person of color’s position or
perception.
There’s lots more:
http://johnraible.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/revised-2009-checklist-for-allies.pdf
This list promotes Diplomacy and Acceptance of Other Experiences and Diverse Ways of Approaching a Concept. There’s Nothing Here about Gatekeepers. Just common sense. In a war, common sense is important. Strategy..strategy..strategy.
@Ellen
>However, I absolutely cannot see how everything a white person says and does [according to JWBE] can be contributed to “Whiteness.” This is absurd. What about the individual’s own experiences, feelings, and perceptions? Isn’t that valid?
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An individuals own experiences, feelings, and perceptions don’t come out of a vacuum. You make the experiences of a white American and based on this you have your perceptions as well as how you see the world and how you relate to it.
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>Everything White Is Negative and Pathological according to her. This Does Not Strike Me As Healthy..it’s Extreme and [to me] Her approach is the pathology.
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Whiteness is a pathology. The goal of anti-racism would be to end whiteness.
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>
I asked her: “Do you want Whites here or not?”
She replied:
“Stupid question, the owners of this blog are white and so are many members. You come here with your blinding white entitlement which distorts also your comprehension skills and this is what I address. Good intentions aren’t enough.”
This is Not treating “Her Call” for whites to speak out now against racism with anything resembling acceptance.
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For you to better understand: Your question is stupid. This blog’s intention is to teach whites. It addresses whites. Those who want to learn.
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>This is like inviting a group of neighborhood people over for a barbecue. Then when the neighbors arrive yelling at them, “Who the hell invited you..you lousy crappy people! Get out!
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no, it’s inviting a group of neigborhood people over to a barbecue and challenging them, when they start to disrupt the barbecue.
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>Anybody who is so unwilling to self-examine and consistently points All Ills at “It’s Other People! It’s Not Me..It’s Never Me!” needs to stop and look oneself in the mirror.
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take your own advice, the one unwilling to look in the mirror is you. And you seem to have an issue that ‘white’/whiteness is my target and I wonder why. Whiteness is also the target of this blog for your information.
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>Also, I am making the point that Not Every Decision I make/ No Everything I say/ Not Everything I think is a Reflection of the White Racial Frame. This sight has indeed opened my eyes to the fact that some of what I do/say/think Is Indeed a reflection of that and that to be an effective Anti-Racist we must acknowledge this. But there comes a point that is pathological.
Many of my decisions are based on my personal background/preferences/ tastes/ beliefs. They are Not the result of brain-washing or white entitlement.
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Regardless what you try to pretend, those who can see, will see. You can live your own denial about the costs of whiteness for whites themselves. As I already told you, Alice Miller writes great books, helping to understand many things within this society and also understanding oneself within this society and system.
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>But no..not every comment I make reflects the boogy man..”white racial frame.” That’s psychotic, extremist thinking.
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American anti-racism differs to a certain degree to German anti-racism and this is what I wanted to learn when I joined the American internet years ago. Critical whiteness studies, something more or less just starting in Germany, there are more American writings about this. In Germany anti-racism is often confused with anti-rightwing-extremism or anti-xenophobia. For me a combination of all is necessary as well as understanding the culture with all it’s values etc. that makes whiteness and right-wing-extremism possible.
I can see the positives of German and American anti-racism as well as the negatives. In both countries one thing is somehow avoided to address: Eurocentric culture itself and how much of our behaviors, attitudes, expectations are part of this culture, not always related to race. The most important book I ever read is Yurugu.
>Our Initial Encounter was when I made the Honest Mistake of responding [by agreeing with Her!] to a post she was addressing to No1KState.
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you didn’t agree, because you can’t agree with something you didn’t understand.
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>If you notice, Tim Wise does not address people in the manner she does.
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As long as you won’t stop feeling like the poor victim and try to get sympathy by labeling me Nazi, psychotic and whatever I won’t stop addressing you. As long as you don’t stop complaining about me without directly addressing me, I won’t stop addressing you and your bigotry. And as long as you don’t stop to make it about you and your assumption that it is about you because you are white, I won’t stop addressing you. And you either have the decency to act the way you want to be treated, because I really see zero reason to be ‘courteous’ when you think you can act the way you do and insult me, including name-calling, but then whining like an injured child; or you have to deal with the reality that not everybody will appreciate your ‘intentions’ but will judge you by your actions/words.
link to miller’s work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)
and exactly this below, among many other things,is the problem of many so-called white anti-racists, as long as they are not willing to explore European culture, their roots, where they come from and that makes them ‘white’:
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It is an inherent characteristic of the culture that it prepares members of the culture to be able to act like friends toward those they regard as enemies; to be able to convince others that they have come to help when they, in fact, have come to destroy the others and their culture. That some may “believe” that they are actually doing good only makes them more dangerous, for they have swallowed their own rhetoric-perhaps a convenient self-delusion. Hypocritical behavior is sanctioned and rewarded in European culture. The rhetorical ethic helps to sanction it. European culture cannot be understood in terms of the dynamics of other cultures alone. It is a culture that breeds hypocrisy-in which hypocrisy is a supportive theme a standard of behavior.
[…]
The rhetorical ethic is made possible by the fact that hypocrisy as a mode of behavior is a valued theme in European life; the same hypocritical behavior that its presence sanctions. Again, “value” refers to that which is encouraged and approved in a culture. European culture is constructed in such a way that successful survival within it discourages honesty and directness and encourages dishonesty and deceit-the ability to appear to be something other than what one is; to hide one’s “self,” one’s motives and intent.
http://www.africawithin.com/ani/excerpt_chap6.htm
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edit: should be ‘what makes them ‘white’ instead of ‘that makes them ‘white’
Okay JWBE:
Why don’t you tackle “AgMarine on the Bronx Rally to End Discrimination on Health Care. He’s right up your alley.” Just go to the Health Care thread and do your thing.
Now, let’s see if she has the Courage She Claims She Possesses and The Strong Intent to Educate That She Claims Drives all Her Comments to Me…..Or Is JWBE Really a Phoney?
I’m taking All Bets She’ll chicken out!
Hey Ellen, I have to ask you a question. If “whites” have been brainwashed into a cetain mindset then same must hold ture for all race, right? Now, again, I am getting a little confused..I thought that every person from all race were “brainwashed” into thinking into a “eurocenrism” way of thinking..JWBE mentioned that above, but it has been my understanding that ALL people from different cultures have been “brainwashed” into thinking the same way, not just white people, in general.. In order to be “brainwashed” into thinking in a certain way, and singling “whites” to fit that mindset, would in reality, be an insult to all white people. The word “brainwashed” is a very powerful word when discribing masses of people..I can agree with all races maybe being “brainwashed”, and to put all whites into that category, is like saying that all white people are weak of mind, which is an insult to the white human race. However, when using the word “brainwashed” that includes ALL people of all race is a little more understanding because we are human beings, and can be minipulated into thinking a certain way, if the people are very strong in their convictions into getting the people that they are trying to persade to think like them, which in this case, is the “eurocentrism way” of thinking.. Whew!! I agree Ellen, that although we may be white the choises we make in this life are not “eurocentrisim”, but rather, personal choise that we as Human beings” have a RIGHT to make without the pressures of anybodys influence, but our own personal choise or perferences.. This is why the “Good lord” gave most everyone a brain, so that we could make personal choises.. I don’t think JWBE lives in the US otherwise, she would understand that most of our TV stations our owned by the Jewish people.. Anyway, I’m glad to see this site has calmed down some, and hope it continues to help each other with the concepts that are being discussed, and very complexed.. Now with this all being said again, I would like to look up the US Census again and see what ethnic group has the stronger voices in this country.. Thanks, MOM:)
My Grandmother uses to say to me when I was a little girl over and over “No good deed goes unpunished”. I never understood the meaning of what she meant until I got a little older and started to take a look at how the Native Indians people were treated, and who are now responsible for 50 to 60 percent of the worlds food supply, regarding, vegetables..Talk about a race who should be pissed off..Let’s not take that there because if not for the “white” euros then maybe the true Natives of this “LAND would not be almost an extinct race. I think we have gotten most people beat on that topic. However, at least we will be remembered for something useful and helpful regarding humanity. And, as far as “no good deed goes unpunished” Grandmother was a very wise lady, how true, how true.
@ JWBE:
Still no response to AgMarine? The resident Gatekeeper who is going to explain How to Be An Official Anti-Racist cause none of us meet up to JWBE’s screeching STANDARDS: “I AM ONLY TRYING TO HELP YOU DUM KOPF! YOU COME HERE ARROGANT AND WORDS ARE NOT ENOUGH! I MUST BEAT AND BERATE YOU CAUSE INTENTIONS ARE NOT ENOUGH WHITE ENTITLEMENT PIGS!”
Hm-m-m. Now that’s Really Peculiar. When a real azz bonafide Racist comes on here..you scuttle back into your shell like a hermit crab. Why?
Perhaps your intentions are benevolent Deep Down, but your methods are self-defeating. Plus if you won’t tackle AgMarine, frankly, I think you’re a bit of a coward. Why waste time on anti-racists when the guy down the hall is screaming, “I’m a Racist! The Hell With All of You!”
I think you need to do some self-examining and reflect on a little bit of psychosis in yourself. You are a screech owl and downright nasty to well-intentioned whites, but let a Tough Marine Anti-Racist on the site and you hide under the bed. Be brave JWBE! Take a deep breath and Go Get the Guy. C’mon!
I looked at the 2007 US Census..Whites 68 percent, minorities, which include, Blacks, Hispanics, Asian. 22 percent.. There are 10 percent not counted in this Census maybe has something to do with Mexicans, Indians, Native Indians? What I did find very frustrating with the US Census is that they don’t break is down by pure ethnic groups like Italian, English, etc. Just Whites. And, as mentioned before, pure ethnic whites. However, what I did find interesting that there are 12 states whites alone, and 5 states that are pure ethnic black. Now, with that being said, I wonder if they meant pure ethnic white? Very time consuming and very frustrating..So, I am going to leave like that. I am beginning to believe there are no pure ethnic white people in this country, or at least, maybe,I’m not looking at the correct “stats” concerning this..Anyway, this is what I’ve found out, so be it! Mom:) PS The other groups as mentioned above do not have “states” alone as with white and black populations.
Almost forgot to mention that by the year 2050 “whites” in this country with be the minority, and by the year of 2090 extinct. I’m just wondering were they are going? So, looking at that makes me wonder why “people” in general are quick to the topic of discrimination because there is another saying that “all good things will come to those who wait” Thanks, Mom:) Have a great day!
Ellen, you seem to think you’re an antiracist expert. Why don’t you go get AgMarine and call him/her on the racism? You’re the one who thinks you’re all bad on here (it really shines)–c’mon Ellen, let’s see what you’ve got.
Big bad Ellen’s personal slogan: “You think my attitude stinks? You should smell my underwear!” Go get ’em tiger!
What’s an AgMarine?
My guess it that it is an ROTC cadet or one who has graduated their program and went into active duty. Though, could be initials for a name or something other.
Seattle said:” You’re the one who thinks you’re all bad on here (it really shines)–c’mon Ellen, let’s see what you’ve got.”
Oh c’mon, that’s Not what’s happening! I just honestly want to post in peace and actually {I said this before} make some new friends who are also against racism here. JWBE is the proclaimed Tiger. She thinks She’s Gatekeeper and is Arrogant. She attributes everything anybody says to “Being White”. That’s just stupid.
That’s like me talking to a black friend and saying”You just said that cause you’re Black! You just think that cause you’re Black! You just did that cause you’re Black!” That’s insulting. This negates all individual personality whatsoever..and I think that’s going into the Twilight Zone.
I honestly hate discord. JWBE Interprets Discord As Anyone disagreeing with Her! Bull! Who died and made her the new Nordic God? This is my Whole Point. I think she should Lay Off anti-racists. And my point is well-taken..attack the Marine guy. LOL!
Mom Said:
“Whew!! I agree Ellen, that although we may be white the choises we make in this life are not “eurocentrisim”, but rather, personal choise that we as Human beings” have a RIGHT to make without the pressures of anybodys influence, but our own personal choise or perferences.. This is why the “Good lord” gave most everyone a brain, so that we could make personal choises.. ”
Thanks MOM for backing me on this one. To attribute every decision I make and every word I utter to this Eurocentrism meme is just ludicrous. Of course, some decisions I make are based on “conditioning” due to the culture [some of said conditioning being sub-conscious] but Not Every Thing I do is a “White Frame Eurocentric Devil” meme! Jeez..common sense people. Even Joe and Jessie don’t go that far. Only one I’ve seen here that is a Freakin’ Fanatic is JWBE.
JWBE said: “As long as you won’t stop feeling like the poor victim.”
Don’t start the whites as victims crap either. I never said I was a victim. Black People are the Victims. I just don’t appreciate harrassment from a Fanatic!
I just noticed MOM went after AgMarine! Way to Go Mom! You’ve got more Stones than JWBE has, that’s for sure! She’s still dancing around with her ‘abolishing whiteness is the goal of anti-racism’ insanity. Gosh JW: must be nice to be totally oblivious to reality…kinda like the guy in the movie Rain Man! Ignorance is Bliss 🙂
Ellen, I do what I want to do, not what your sick ego believes I have to do.
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I have my own thoughts about this blog and how the comment section is handled, dissapointing…
Therefore, Ellen, it is your place now, you will be free to post your shit, together with other idiots and racists who could make this blog somehow there place.
I am looking for exchange about anti-racism, this is not possible here.
Those who are serious about anti-racism, thanks for your thoughts and inputs and perhaps one day I will come back to this blog.
But at the moment it’s a waste of time.
I personally think jwbe should get a scholarship that gives her a free ride to any university in the world to complete her education beyond where it has been completed thus far, and one that will allow her to complete it as far as she wishes–if she were to ever have such desire and if such opportunity were to ever knock for her.
She’s made outstanding contributions to this site in many ways and brings in a critical and valuable outside perspective. She’s got incredible potential that should not go to waste. Why you continue to distort and discredit her is beyond me. Unless you are a cloaked Neo-Nazi supporter or sympathizer–as if you do not want such racist supporters to get the truth about our nation and its history, and current Germany vs. Nazi Germany. I’m personally tired of Liberals in particular using the Holocaust as a scape-goat to “prove” they aren’t racist and use it as a type of threshold to determine what “really constitutes racism” and to somehow illustrate how “progressive” this nation/peoples/white Americans are. It’s a part of history that is abused by both conservatives and liberals, though in different ways. Anybody who does such does not truly care about the level of damage that has been done during those decades and the scars left behind. Anybody who does honestly care, they would not be attacking a person who speaks out against both racism and antisemitism, or any type of anti-anything. And they would not demand denial on our own history and current very painful realities communities of color are forced to live on a daily basis–painful realities that are invisible to white people because of both Neo-Jim Crow segregation, many different types of racism, and because white people simply don’t have to care. Colorblind racism says we are all the same.
jwbe has never proclaimed to be “the Gatekeeper” and certainly has never been aggressive–those are your delusions.
But let’s bring it back to you Ellen, you want to be put up on a pedestal. Let’s put you up on one now. After all, you’ve got the Ivy League education. Out of nowhere you tell jwbe to go attack the Marine–you shouldn’t tell people to do things you wouldn’t or couldn’t do yourself. You’re the antiracist expert here–show her/all of us how it’s done. Enlighten us all, please.
@ JWBE: “Whiteness is a pathology. The goal of anti-racism would be to end whiteness.”
Okay, for argument’s sake, let’s just play along.
1. Whiteness is Pretty Disgusting. Europeans have a long history of being deceitful and abominably cruel. All people of European decent have an inherent [although not even conscious sometimes] affinity for Sadism. This is true. Please look up, “The European Sadist and Its Implications in an Otherwise Sweet Peaceful World”. I also recommend, “Satan Talks to Europeans in Their Sleep”.
2. White People Eat Their Young. This is true also. They are cannibals and it is well known that in Suburbia America, many white people have secretly chopped up their children and sauteed them in olive oil. In fact, white people pass around a Secret Recipe Book that contains all kinds of ways to serve white babies for formal dinner parties or the casual outdoor barbecue!
3. White People are Cruel to All Animals. Sometimes they pretend [cause whites are so deceitful] to actually like animals and even overtly join Be Kind to Animal organizations..But this is A Front! They actually will take a typical cocker spaniel puppy and burn it with hot pokers until it dies of third degree burns. They will take a kitten and starve it until the kitten will eat its own Ears out of hunger! White people like to watch this stuff and laugh!
4.White People Hate Education. They scoff at “book lernin” and kick and throw garbage at their children if caught reading a book. They have ritual “book burnins” to “demon”-strate their scorn for anything educational.
5. Whites Don’t Use Toilets. I don’t even want to explain this one cause it’s not fit for public viewing.
THIS SHOULD MAKE JWBE VERY HAPPY!
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@Jwbe- I’ve tried to understand and have learned some very important information from your posts. I tried my best not to question you because after reading some of your posts, I knew, that you are well informed and I could never catch up to you, unless, learned by you.. However, it has only been this blog that I’ve actually looked at what you were saying because of the fact that some posts have been very disturbing as far as insensitivity for the feelings of another person…Anway, you just keep on writing your messages there is no need to leave. A thousand appologies for my ignorance regarding anit-racism, but I will never appologise for being a human being.. Thanks, Mom:)
Well, you’re leaving JWBE? You’ve said that before. You’re just having a bad day I guess. Plus you said to me once:
” Ellen, if you are serious nobody will be able to stop you. If somebody, is able to stop you, you have never been serious.”
Please don’t leave on my account. You could tone down your style a little though. If “toning down your style” is not possible, maybe you weren’t Serious in the first place.
Get some rest, take a white European looking doll and poke two pins into it, and call me in the morning! I honestly don’t want to be the cause of you leaving. If you would show some tolerance for the different backgrounds and experiences of other people and Stop Being So Fanatical..you’d relax more..and thus not feel the need to leave. Everything shouldn’t Be: All or Nothing JWBE.
Seattle Said: “But let’s bring it back to you Ellen, you want to be put up on a pedestal.”
Wrong, wrong and more wrong! I did not come to this site looking to be put on any pedestal. My point was Always that if one is joining this site with benevolent intentions, and truly believes in Anti-Racism, it’s difficult to be chided and harrassed by individuals like JWBE. You say she’s not trying to be a Gatekeeper. I say she is. That’s where the argument started and I presume will end.
Instructing is Not Castigating. I totally believe blacks have been treated abominably in America. I totally believe in Affirmative Action. I am in the process of examining my own sub-conscious racist tendencies now. And if any White says, “Oh no..I don’t even have sub-conscious Racist tendencies”..they’re lying.
I know JWBE is your friend. But don’t put stuff on me that I never said.
What’s colorblind racism? Unfortunitley, we have to identify the problem, then find a solution. right? So, if everybody has identified the problem then what is the solution? I am a solutions person.. Meaning once I have identified a problem I try my best to live in the solution verses living in the problem..So, Texas please inform me about the solution of the problem concerning racism..Thanks, Mom:)
I don’t know jwbe personally–she’s just been on here for over a year now–closer to two years I think. She’s been valuable to this website.
The way I’m understanding you is that you are a cloaked Neo-Nazi, otherwise you wouldn’t be attacking her as you are–plain and simple. She’s obviously a serious threat to you for what ever reason. My guess is that she’s doing a most excellent job of articulating the white racial frame and how that reinforces white supremacy. For what ever reason you take that as a threat–which you shouldn’t if you were here to learn. If you were here to learn, you would be engaging in a conversation with her as she has been with you, not attacking her. You would “listen”. You’re the only person whose had a problem with her in the entire time she’s been on here. Isn’t that funny?
She has been doing an outstanding job of demonstrating how an antiracist should deal with racists in this thread–as well as all threads she’s ever participated in. I extend my personal applause, and applause on behalf of all people who come on this site, to jwbe here.
Again, if you would, please go address AgMarine and provide a demonstration for us on what a real antiracist looks like in your mind. For whatever reason you can’t seem to do that–you attack one of the best antiracist bloggers on here. Why?
Ellen, if JWBE is not living in the US then maybe she is able to view discrimination a little differently then we are. I was told by many people to stay away from the US news because if I really wanted to know what’s going on in this country, I would have to outside of the country to find-out. Thanks, Mom
@ Ellen, you know Ellen, I can see why people leave this site. I’ve been reading some of the other posts and believe me, they are extremely racist. I am not talking about the white people, I’m taking about the “anti-racist”..There was a person on here a while ago with extreme examples of WHY’S. Very nice person with a sincere desire to learn, but was brutally attacked to the point he left never to return..I truley believe, now, that there is something sinister about this site. And, I’ve had this feeling for some time now.. As Tim said “it’s only business” I wonder, if there is people making money from this movement. Nobody, I see here really give “two hoots” about what’s going on between the races. I am beginning to suspect that people come here to complain about it, but do nothing but bitch..And, looking at the census they won’t have to bitch two much longer… I just feel bad for the future generations that are born into different classes,which I feel is insane to place the burdens on them for what there fore families did!!! ..As mentioned before, we are born into the world by chance and not choise. So, I was told that I should leave this site because it is affecting me in a negative way.. I’ve been talking to a lot of northreners about this site ,and they feel that it’s an extremist group of people trying to make some money off the pain of other people’s problems, and really don’t have a solution, but just trying to get the last HEE HAW before there are no white people left to bitch about. I wonder what’s going to happen then? Maybe they will end up like every other great civilization and self destruct, and in a thousand years from now, people will be saying what a great nation this must of been. Hopefully, they will not repeat the same mistakes. By the way, I was wondering have you ever read the book 5000 Years Leap by C. Cleon Skousen? Good Bye Ellen and God’s Speed.
@ Seattle:
I personally don’t think JWBE is about anti-racism as much as she is about anti-white-ism.
However, according to you she is “part and parcel” of this website. And I indeed am the new person. I would/could be happy to just discuss with other people. I will not address her anymore.
Moreover, you are a black person, Seattle. I am white. This site is/should be more about What Blacks Prefer rather than about What Whites Prefer.
If you, as a Black, want me to leave for good. I will. You are the Oppressed Race, not me. If you think I’m doing more harm here than good, just say the word and I’ll leave. No problem.
@ Mom:
I guess I debated with someone who is considered sacred around here. That is “just not done” apparently on this website. And, in all fairness, Seattle is Black and he should call the ultimate shots.
I think it’s true it’s hard to see America, by the way, while Inside It. Plus, we are the only country in “relatively recent” history which has practiced slavery. Slavery’s been around for thousands of years, but America held on to “the peculiar institution..as the abolitionists called it” longer than other countries.
Anyway, I hope you learn alot here. Bye.
@ MOM: I just read your post. Well, you already know my feelings. And this blog could definitely make you get depressed. The veterans Just Don’t Tolerate New People well. They’re happy just chatting with each other. And maybe that’s as it should be.
But Whoa to the white who actually thinks “All People Welcome” “We Need Whites to Speak Against Racism Now.” No, actually ya don’t. I think you’re perfectly happy just as things already are in the clubhouse. A “No Tresspassing” sign would help though.
Anyway, God Speed to You too MOM! I wish you the best. You sure are a great lady 🙂
Ok, this is the last time I’m posting on this silly-ass thread. But this needs to be said, because ever time another personal attack gets posted by someone against someone else, it fills up my damned e-mail, and it’s getting old.
First off, when I said “it’s only business” I did not mean in the money making sense. I mean that people shouldn’t take every criticism personally…this issue is systemic.
Secondly, to suggest that people on here don’t advocate solutions is untrue. There are many posts that address that kind of thing…but while y’all sit around engaged in a (mostly if not exclusively) white people pissing contest (in which no one wants to just let anyone have the last word and move the fu&% on), you aren’t examining those posts. There have been several posts made since this one for example, which are going ignored while y’all keep trying to see who’s the bigger antiracist over on this thread. And not one of the damned comments in the past week has had a Goddamned thing to do with the essay under which they have been posted. Not one. By anyone. That’s the problem. It’s not the people who created this site and actually contribute content to it. They aren’t doing a damned thing wrong. People who can’t see the value in the content being posted will never be satisfied with anything I suppose.
If you have “solutions” which you think the rest of us haven’t thought of, then share them. Why the hell does everyone always criticize others for “only talking about the problem and not offering solutions,” as if their own brains don’t work and they can’t think of any themselves. That’s just an excuse not to engage sometimes. You all are just as likely to have the answers of any of us. So offer them. Or else stop criticizing others for not doing so.
Most importantly, if someone says something that pisses you off, and you think it’s personal, let it go. Goddamn that is a white thing: gotta have the last word. (And by the way, I’ll gladly ignore anything anyone wants to say against me for this post). Gotta say some shit about so-and-so cuz she’s from Germany, so let’s say some shit about the crimes of the Nazis (that’ll show her), or so-and-so isn’t formally educated, so let’s make that the issue (some classist, elitist bullshit in its own right), or so-and-so isn’t sufficiently self-critical, or so-and-s0 wants to be on a pedestal, or whatever…
Jesus, enough. Can we actually get back to discussing the subject matter at hand? I’m really concerned about this, and the utter lack of productivity in this thread the past week or so.
Tim
ellen, I’m not Black.
You want me to share what I think about solutions? Beware! I will be back! MOM
Tim, my thoughts
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I think it is necessary to explain to the public what the health care reform and public option is about, something in this style
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/8/26/772918/-*Awesome*-Cartoon-Explains-Public-Plan
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I also would use the majority’s ‘white racial frame’ (using a white middle class family) to show this to them (adds on TV or mainstream media, radio etc):
http://lujan.house.gov/index.php/media-center/in-the-news/326?task=view
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trying to get the support of the about 47 millions without health care and how they could benefit from the reform
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The Obama team also created a website to dispute the current myths about health care.
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On the long run: Trying to enact laws that limit free speech, inciting racial violence is mainstream in the US and this ‘legalizes’ militias.
Teaching democratic understanding, the absence of whites in many rallies indicates, that whites lack a sense of democratic understanding, as long as they believe it ‘only’ affects Black people and that their ‘white rights’ are safe, most can’t connect with the emergency to protect the US as a more or less democratic country.
And what you call silly-ass thread, it’s an almost endemic problem in white America which must be addressed, ‘well intentioned whites’ because this also explains their absence, silence or ‘dropping out’ or supporting eg a war based on their illusions. The mostly white American reaction to 9/11 indicates that: “Why do they hate us”, “they are jealous of our freedoms” and nonsense like this tells you how simple-minded the average white American is constructed, how easy to manipulate and how easy they use violence without any thinking further. The white militias in America are ‘only’ the mirror of white mainstream, the ‘foot-soldiers’ who start what is already there in ‘main-stream America’.
@Seattle, thanks for your kind words. Nonetheless I will leave, I need a break from ‘white America’. See you
@Everybody But Mom and Siss:
I’m not coming back cause I need a break from being told what pieces of shit All Whites are. I agree with Mom, this is the Most Racist [anti-White] place in the world.
@ JWBE Let me tell you something jwbe these simple minded AMERICANS that you claim are jealous are just that AMERICANS. Now, with that being said WE as AMERICANS don’t take to kindly for outsiders talking shit about AMERICANS, in general. White, black purple, or red. When we fight in combat we stand together and don’t give two shits about the color of skin or culture differences when we are watching our AMERICAN BACKS. We also happen to the the “bread basket of the world” Pretty dam good, if I say so myself, being that we are really, ” new” country…And, very interesting that you should be the one to bring up brainwashing? Humm I wonder were you came up with that idea! Now this AMERICAN is off fighting a crisis situation for another AMERICAN, BUT JUST REMEMBER I’LL BE BACK!! MOM:)
@ JWBE:
Hope you enjoy Octoberfest in the Fatherland. Drink some beer for me! And while you’re at it..give a few dozen lectures to the White Nordic Germans about what pieces of shit All Whites are. I’m sure they’ll just love you for that!
When we fight in combat we stand together and don’t give two shits about the color of skin…
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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n22_v83/ai_13558270/
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http://www.veteranstoday.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7873
[NQUEST: You’re (ellen) the only person whose had a problem with her (JWBE) in the entire time she’s been on here. Isn’t that funny?”]
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That is false. I have in the past and still do take issue with her execution and sometimes far-fetched points.
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This thread has resorted to a Bill Cosby showdown. Does anyone not see this? Blacks use JWBE like whites use Bill Cosby. We hide behind their perspective because of the uniqueness of their stance. Hence, Cosby being black and denying black racism – JWBE being white and unveiling white racist behavior.
Ellen: I understand it’s difficult but your contributions are valuable, otherwise, they would have been moderated out. Jessie and Joe allow these interactions because they serve as learning examples. They obviously filter out the trolls but that’s to be expected. Instead of taking an active approach, as I did previous, I now sit back and comment on what I find important. If that means “Im not serious”, etc., etc… so be it. Just as the vets could care less about my experiences/thoughts/stances when it’s not aligned with theirs, I too could care less about their remarks.
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On the topic of JWBE: You know that she was out of line, right? You also know, as do I, that She, Nquest et al doesn’t see it that way. Soooo… let’s let them wallow in their ignorance. Just like you can’t have a conversation with an intoxicated person, you can’t have a conversation with an irrational person. In order to get back to the topic… lets do some discussing!! 🙂 🙂
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@ellen: The self projection that the article mentions is accurate in many accounts regarding Obama in general, not just with the issue of Healthcare reform. Do find this to be prevalent? Why or why not?
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One other note, I think it’s a fear among whites that white culture (aka perceived American) may be lost or diluted. The article mentioned [“fears of the inability to take for granted that our Leave-it-to-Beaver, Norman Rockwell, Boy Scout-approved national narrative will continue to predominate”]. This couldn’t be more accurate. While we would love to tout that America is the melting pot (which is disgustingly cliché and inaccurate), up until recently our country has been whitewashed. Many extremists and some covert anti-poc, wish to see the US remain preserved in its whiteness because that’s how is has always been. They fail to see the benefits or the impact that true equality could bestow. As someone who is white I feel awkward about this point. I look forward to a post-racial society but don’t want to be made to feel ashamed of my whiteness just for the sake of being white. While my recent descendants aren’t American, I’m fully assimilated and find myself in need of more self-examination on this issue! Your thoughts would be appreciated 🙂
jwbe, thanks for the post. I remember hearing the president talk about people being jealous of our freedoms and thinking to myself “what the hell is he talking about?” Then I realized that a lot of people were loving what he said. After years of confusion over what is going on in this country, I have begun to locate the nonsense in White America. Not that all White Americans are oblivious to issues of race and power, but many are. I don’t see this as a genetic flaw. I think that it may be a side effect of having power – the privilege of the unexamined life.
@ Siss:
Thanks for the vote of confidence! I sure needed it after the bashing I received here.
I do believe Americans are frightened by having to bid adieu to the white-washed America, which we can neatly put in a box with a big white bow. In fact, this “putting America in a box” has been exactly the problem minorities have faced for decades.
America doesn’t know how to define itself. For centuries, the “official motto” was the statue of liberty thing: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” (Emma Lazarus on the Statue of Liberty, 1883).
Yeah..but..if we look at our media [from textbooks to television to computers] for centuries, the picture is of What America Wants To Look Like From a White Perspective. And the fact is, America does Not Want to Accept Huddled Masses!
Every ethnic group that came here were treated with scorn and contempt..Not Welcomed! I am of Polish and Hungarian descent. No, my relatives were not exactly given the big handshake welcome. So, there is this dichotomy that works in America. There’s the Official Statement/ There’s The Reality.
As ethnic groups blended into the melting pot, they became more accepted into the Firsts Ones Here Pecking Order. The more they hung onto their ethnicity, the harder it was for them to be President of the PTA. Minorities were not Celebrated..you kiddin’ me?
During the Civil Rights Movement, I believe it opened the door for many minorities to finally say,”Hey what gives? You want diversity or not?” It’s been, obviously, especially hard for black people..almost impossible.
I remember looking at an old movie on You-Tube {cause I teach} filmed in the 1950’s. It was entitled “The Old South”. It showed a white family {mom,dad, kids..real Ozzie and Harriet} checking out the old plantations in Louisiana. It was all about tourism Fun. “And here’s where the slaves lived. They toiled night and day at the master’s bidding. And here’s where the horses were kept. Each plantation was like a little village with each person specializing in one trade for the benefit of all.”
I mean, it was like showing someone a tour of a concentration camp, with the sound of the ice cream truck melody in the background. “Deedly-de-e-e-e” and this was the place where slaves were sold at auction..deedly..deedle..dum”.
So yes, white America does need to ruminate on what’s Going To Happen in the future whether they like it or not. I also think, as the trend has been going since the Civil Rights era, that white America needs to appreciate the tremendous contributions other ethnic groups/races have contributed and will contribute to this country. There’s simply no going back.
Obama does indeed symbolize the New Era where other-than-white ethnic groups will DOMINATE.
All that being said, the problem I had with JWBE is this exclusion of individual thought processes/observations/preferences/emotions ENTIRELY. Not everything I do is related to being white. Just like not everything a black man does is not Just Related to Being Black. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you told a black friend, “You just said that cause you’re Black. You just think that cause you’re Black. You just did that cause you’re Black”..they’d get pretty damn frustrated with you in a New York Minute. Cause it just ‘Don’t Make Sense’!
This was the mantra I heard from JWBE. I think blacks/whites Need to find common ground…not pick one side of the fence ad nauseum and then Shout About Each Others’ Differences. Also, you won’t get an entire race of people, namely whites, to totally turn themselves inside out. JWBE will be disappointed in the end. The best you can hope for?
Some kind of Common Ground between blacks and whites. A tolerance for differences as long as those differences don’t hurt the other race.
Siss, your slip is (apparently) showing…
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Translation #1: I believe my (Nquest’s) only post on this thread came directly before yours at #175. Yet, for some reason, you mentioned my (Nquest’s) name in your post and even attributed a quote that I couldn’t have possible authored.
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Translation #2: I (Nquest) am not Seattle-In-Texas. Seattle-In-Texas is not me (Nquest).
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<<| “Blacks use JWBE like whites use Bill Cosby.”
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Slip showing, indeed. Stop lying and learn how to read:
Post #167: Seattle-In-Texas said, “ellen, I’m not Black..”
Seattle-In-Texas, again, was the person you quoted regarding Ellen being the “only” person who has had a problem with JWBE.
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Hmmm… And regarding your bogus “reverse Cosby” theory… DOA
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Nowhere on this whole entire blog have I (Nquest) or any other Black/African-American poster that I’m aware ever pulled the “reverse Cosby.” Never have I or No1KState (I’m not aware of any other somewhat regular Black poster… though folks like Ellen, Mom, etc. ASSume other posters are Black when they are not)… never have we engaged someone White in one of these race/racism discussions and curiously cited Joe, Jessie, Tim Wise, etc. as [White] people who agree with us with the explicit/implicit suggestion that’s made when Whites mention Bill Cosby, stupid-azz Black CONservatives like Shelby Steele, Tom Sowell, John McWhorter, etc., etc.
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Never have we (me or No1KState) cited Joe, Jessie, JWBE, Tim Wise… whoever as the reasons why we’re right. In fact, I don’t believe I ever seen a Black person do that. Oh but I have seen you try this same lame old, lazy old switch-a-roo, turn-a-round tactic (pre-school tactic) before… PROJECTING — i.e. accusing others (in this case Blacks as a group) of doing things you (or, in this case, [White] people) do.
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If anything, in this situation, with Seattle-In-Texas being white (I could be wrong but I believe I’ve seen him disclose his race before)… this is a case of:
.
A White person Ellen assumed to be Black (stereotype much?) using another white person, JWBE who Ellen questioned if she thought she was “Black” because JWBE didn’t subscribe to the same conventional (read: hardly examined; said so many times it’s cliche) view that “No White Can Fully Understand What It Feels Like To Be Black.” Exactly why that’s relevant, I don’t know. The same way I have no idea why you, Siss, keep mentioning my name when you claim you don’t want to engage me or don’t care about my remarks.
@Ellen—–Still learning, but I am beginning to think this runs deeper then anit-racist.
I’ll make up my own mind after careful thought and consideration about what I have learned. MOM:)
Ellen-I don’t think it’s and anit-white..This is what I’ve learn. I believe what they are saying is that “white”, in general, feel they should be treated special because of their whiteness…. Now, with that begin said, there is some truth to that…I know of white Men in this country that are the most arrogant SOB’s, and not only think they should be treated and respected better as they float above the rest of us on a “pillow called arrogance” I know some women who are the same way. Now, a lot of theses people hold “high positions” and a lot of them came from privileged lives.. White people make up 68 percent of the people in this country. However, out of that 68 percent I would say maybe only about 20 percent fit into that category..Let’s put it another way. There are a lot of white people that inter married, and are just everyday normal people that don’t really have the time as least in the North to sit around and wonder about if they are racist. I don’t think they care as long as they are able to put food on the table for their own family first. And, that would hold true for most black Americans, I would hope.. Now, I will tell you something else how people in the home talk to their children about different ethnics groups has a lot to do with how they look at different cultures. There is nothing wrong with being a different culture we have many gifts to bring to the table and could learn a lot from each other.
What I get upset about on the blot is putting “ALL” white people in this country into that category..This is certainly NOT TRUE. And, as mentioned with some of other blogs that have not been posted the key word is American..We as an American culture are in general a NEW country in commparison to the rest of the world. However, even with all of our indefferences we are not only the “super power” of the world, but also the “bread basket to the world” , which as stated befor in pretty impressvis if I say so myself.
Solutions: Education, Education, Education. Rather they accussing “whites” of the greatness because I am sure people would disagree this new was of looking at racism would be easier to digest through EDUCATION! People in general really don’t be told what to do perieod. However, people in general, will listsen and make like to make up their own minds. If they stay around here long enough without the extreme attacks about the color of their skin, which is complete insane they would come the understand what was being discussed and maybe start looking at themselves and their own prejudices.. I know a lot of people who need to do just that and believe me should look at how they treat others of all race not just black, blue or purple…LOL
Now, with this all being said one solution is through education..The other solution may be through some lectures in the northern states. I’ve never heard of this until I came here, so maybe I’m missing something.. You can’t expect people to know something about themselves unless another person “plants that seed”. The worst thing you can do is shove it down their throats through nasty attacks, their minds will close etc.. These are two solutions I have some other thoughts..Thanks, Mom:)
Again I come back to you Ellen with some thoughts.
I’ve had the opportunity to travel to different parts of the country and was talking to different “white” people about this site. Now, these people are everyday working class and struggle on a daily basis to put food on their tables for their families.. One, of these people told me that if not for the “slavery” some of the blacks in this country would not be alive today.. She studies what goes on in Africa.. Also, as I said before, God does work in mysterious ways. Now, with that being said, I had to think about what she said, and I had to agreed. The problem is how they teach in general public schools.. I wonder how could any black person feel good about themselves knowing that there ancestors were brought over under those conditions. This thought holds true of the Indians. I feel the one way is talk about Africa and how many of those people are being killed on a daily basis and I don’t want to say too much more it’s very disturbing…I am not saying “sugar coat” slavery tell people the truth, but also tell those people the truth about what’s going on over in the Mother Land.. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to talk about ‘God’ anymore in our public school systems, but we can create liberal group to talk about different sex choices..YIKES!!! Anyway, there has to be a way to teach the cold hard truths and educate if this did not happen what fate some of these people may have experienced. AMEN! I also know that slavery is being practiced today over in Africa.. Now, the Arabian are hold the slave trade. Thanks, MOM
Siss, I (Nquest) did not write the post you quoted with my name attached to it — i.e. I didn’t make the post that said Ellen was “the only person whose had a problem” with JWBE.
@ MOM:
I agree that, of course, part of what this blog is about is the Truism that white people [some times subconsciously] feel privileged above other races in this country. My only objection is this type of thing:
Seattle in Texas Says:
August 20th, 2009 at 7:32 am
Is that Heckel and Jeckel I hear above? Mom and Ellen, so glad to see you two found shoulders to cry on and blow your noses into! Be well.
jwbe Says:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am
@ellen, ” this site isn’t about you and your and Mom’s personal stories.
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As I said already, you are quite revealing. And just in case you didn’t get it so far: This site is about racism, and not ‘white people’s pain’ ”
This is the type of stuff that will decidedly make people run away. Nobody’s going to sit and “learn” from sources that dish out these type of insults. I mean, who died and made veterans on this site God?
Yes, education is the key. Just like black children will Not Learn if a White Teacher talks down to them..I guess us dumb-azz whites won’t learn either if we’re insulted and jeered at. Blacks have been saying for decades that black children do not compare academically with white children’s grade point averages Because of 1.racist teachers who subtly look down their noses at Ebonics 2. racist tests that subtly look down their noses at the black experience and expect black kids to know what White suburban living is like if they’ve never been there.
By that same logic, how can us dummy whites learn anything if we’re being blonked on the old head every time we open our mouths with, “Shut up you dumb white sh%#! Just saying you’re anti-racist and posting here and listening isn’t enough you moronic SOB. You must learn..and parrot everything Gertrude from Munich tells you!” This is nonsense.
Education coupled with reason and tolerance of differences..that’s how black kids learn and that’s how white ‘grown-ups’ learn too.
@ MOM:
I also read from several different sources that slavery is being practiced today in Africa. Check it out:
IRIN (Integrated Regional Information Networks) of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports children being sold to Arab herdsmen in Chad. As part of a new identity imposed on them the herdsman “…change their name, forbid them to speak in their native dialect, ban them from conversing with people from their own ethnic group and make them adopt Islam as their religion.”[2]
[edit] Mali
The Malian government denies that slavery exists. Slavery still continues with some Tuaregs holding Bella people.[3]
[edit] Mauritania
Main article: Slavery in Mauritania
A system exists now by which Arab Muslims — the bidanes — own black slaves, the haratines.[4] An estimated 90,000 black Mauritanians remain essentially enslaved to Arab/Berber owners.[5] The ruling bidanes (the name means literally white-skinned people) are descendants of the Sanhaja Berbers and Beni Hassan Arab tribes who emigrated to northwest Africa and present-day Western Sahara and Mauritania during the Middle Ages.[6] According to some estimates, up to 600,000 black Mauritanians, or 20% of the population, are still enslaved, many of them used as bonded labour.[7] Slavery in Mauritania was finally criminalized in August 2007.[8] Malouma Messoud, a former Muslim slave has explained her enslavement to a religious leader:
“We didn’t learn this history in school; we simply grew up within this social hierarchy and lived it. Slaves believe that if they do not obey their masters, they will not go to paradise. They are raised in a social and religious system that everyday reinforces this idea.[9]”
Niger
In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.[13] Slavery dates back for centuries in Niger and was finally criminalised in 2003, after five years of lobbying by Anti-Slavery International and Nigerien human-rights group, Timidria.[14] More than 870,000 people still live in conditions of forced labour, according to Timidria, a local human rights group.[15][16]
Descent-based slavery, where generations of the same family are born into bondage, is traditionally practised by at least four of Niger’s eight ethnic groups. The slave masters are mostly from the nomadic tribes — the Tuareg, Fulani, Toubou and Arabs.[17] It is especially rife among the warlike Tuareg, in the wild deserts of north and west Niger, who roam near the borders with Mali and Algeria.[18] In the region of Say on the right bank of the river Niger, it is estimated that three-quarters of the population around 1904-1905 was composed of slaves.[19]
Historically, the Tuareg swelled the ranks of their slaves during war raids into other peoples’ lands. War was then the main source of supply of slaves, although many were bought at slave markets, run mostly by indigenous peoples.[20][21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa
@ MOM:
India has also come under scrutiny by the United Nations regarding modern day slavery
.http://www.gvnet.com/humantrafficking/India.htm
EVERY HOUR, FOUR WOMEN AND GIRLS IN INDIA ENTER PROSTITUTION, THREE OF THEM AGAINST THEIR WILL – 13-year-old Mira of Nepal was offered a job as a domestic worker in Mumbai, India. Instead she arrived at a brothel on Mumbai’s Falkland Road, where tens of thousands of young women are displayed in row after row of zoo-like animal cages. Her father had been duped into giving her to a trafficker. When she refused to have sex, she was dragged into a torture chamber in a dark alley used for ‘breaking-in’ new girls. She was locked in a narrow, windowless room without food or water. On the fourth day, one of the madam’s goondas (thug) wrestled her to the floor and banged her head against the concrete until she passed out. When she awoke, she was naked; a “rattan” cane smeared with pureed red chilli peppers shoved into her vagina. Later she was raped by the goonda. Afterwards, she complied with their demands. The madam told Mira that she had been sold to the brothel for 50,000 rupees (about US$ 1,700), that she had to work until she paid off her debt. Mira was sold to a client who became her pimp.’
[ Robert I. Freidman, “India’s Shame” Sexual Slavery and Political Corruption Are Leading to AN AIDS Catastrophe,” – The Nation, 8 April 1996 ]
@ MOM: UN tries to crack down on world-wide human trafficking in 155 countries!
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) — Sexual exploitation and forced labor are the most common forms of human trafficking in the world, a new report from the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime said.
Aid agencies say young women are being forced into prostitution across Russia’s capital.
The “Global Report on Trafficking in Persons” is based on data from 155 countries and offers a global assessment of human trafficking and efforts to fight it.
The most common form of human trafficking is sexual exploitation, at 79 percent, the report said. The victims of sexual exploitation are predominantly women and girls.
In about one-third of the countries that provided information on the gender of the traffickers, women made up the largest proportion of traffickers. In Central Asia and Eastern Europe, women make up more than 60 percent of those convicted of trafficking.
“In these regions, women trafficking women is the norm,” said Antonio Maria Costa, the head of U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime. “It is shocking that former victims become traffickers. We need to understand the psychological, financial and coercive reasons why women recruit other women into slavery.”
The second most common form of human trafficking is forced labor, or slavery, making up 18 percent of the total, although the writers of the report say it may be underreported.
“How many hundreds of thousands of victims are slaving away in sweat shops, fields, mines, factories, or trapped in domestic servitude?” Costa said. “Their numbers will surely swell as the economic crisis deepens the pool of potential victims and increases demand for cheap goods and services.”
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Regardless of the type of human trafficking, nearly one in five of its victims were children, according to the report.
“Children’s nimble fingers are exploited to untangle fishing nets, sew luxury goods or pick cocoa,” the report said. “Their innocence is abused for begging, or exploited for sex as prostitutes, pedophilia or child pornography. Others are sold as child brides or camel jockeys.”
@ MOM:
Slavery in Thailand:
Thailand is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of forced labor and commercial sexual exploitation. Thailand’s relative prosperity attracts migrants from neighboring countries and from as far away as Russia and Fiji who flee conditions of poverty and, in the case of Burma, military repression. Significant illegal migration to Thailand presents traffickers with opportunities to force, coerce, or defraud undocumented migrants into involuntary servitude or sexual exploitation. Following migration to Thailand, men, women, and children, primarily from Burma, are trafficked for forced labor in fishing-related industries, factories, agriculture, construction, domestic work, and begging. Women and children are trafficked from Burma, Cambodia, Laos, the People’s Republic of China, Vietnam, Russia, and Uzbekistan for commercial sexual exploitation in Thailand. Ethnic minorities such as northern hill tribe peoples, many of whom do not have legal status in the country, are at a disproportionately high risk for trafficking internally and abroad. – U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009 [full country report]
Wow! What a crummy world huh? Makes Los Angeles look like..well..Disney Land.
@ MOM:
My point is that it’s imperative that Blogs like this exist so that Slavery Will Never Again Exist in America as it Now Does in Third World Countries all over the world. Millions and millions of people are forced into physical labor, sold into prostitution against their will [many of them children of only 10 years!], and the people who were once forced into this prostitution eventually become human traffickers themselves.
@ ellen: You are correct when you claim, [“Yeah..but..if we look at our media [from textbooks to television to computers] for centuries, the picture is of What America Wants To Look Like From a White Perspective. And the fact is, America does Not Want to Accept Huddled Masses!”] It’s part of the American way to save face and pretend like we want inclusion for the sake of looking good to others.
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@mom: You touched on a good point: Education. In theory that is the optimal solution. However, when it comes to the application of it in communities, universities, job-training, this is where we will come up against resistance. Important questions to ask are: Who will define the curriculum? What will be the processes to overcome the resistance that will (inevitably) ensue? These are things to think about lest education forums become like the GUN-toting Health Care townhall meetings. YIKES.
Ellen, again, thank you for the education, but I knew about the slavery in third world countries…As mentioned before, I have no problem with this site. However, I do have a problem with brutal attacks on Americans. This site is not about black verses white. This site, I thought, was a new way of looking at racism, in regards, to how our “fore white” fathers founded this country, and apparently brainwashed all people in this country into the euro centrism way of thinking. Anyway, there are a lot of inter-racial marriages between whites and blacks, so what may have held true in the past is changing through time.. Just like the saying “the wheels of justice” grinds slow, so may the “wheels of justice” grind slow concerning racism. However, if people don’t know that there is a problem; then how can people fix the problem. I personally find this new way at looking at racism to be very interesting. However, there are a lot of people that would also agree if given the chance to explore this site without brutal attacks. And, with this being said, I really have “a truck load of s&%” going on in my personal life has nothing to do with “white flight” , but real life changes. I will continue to learn welcomed or not, but I will not tolerate insults, nobody should. Thanks, MOM:)
Lectures! @Sis I will really give this some deep thought because your question is valid. However, maybe, Black History Month. That month would be a great way to incorporate the topic of Africa. Sadly, I do believe, each state has it’s own standards or curriculum’s. Maybe if enough of WE the people voices were heard it could be accomplished. Let me think, and as mentioned before, I have some real serious stuff going on, but if I could be a help in anyway even if just one person at a time, I’ll do my part, and that’s a promise from the heart. Thanks, MOM:)
Just wanted to let folks know, as if it’s important or relevant, that I am not a male…I came back to apologize to those who I respect on here who may have thought or perceived otherwise….
Seattle said: “I came back to apologize to those who I respect on here who may have thought or perceived otherwise”.
Thanks for the apology Ma’am. You certainly owed us one. 🙂
In light of some of the comments that were made above, I thought we needed some good music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRZ1RPf_d_E&feat…
Just experimenting here and leaving another tune for all my toodles 😀 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l06M-dsQf3Q