White Men’s Hostility to Black Women: A Deeper Look



Census data reveal that the interracial marriage rate of black women (and mainly white men) has only modestly increased from 1% in 1970 to 4.1% in 2000. Research also shows that black women are overwhelmingly excluded as interracial dating partners, with one study showing that white men excluded black women as dating options at 93 percent.

The longstanding persistent exclusion of black women as a heterosexual relationship partner for white men (and other men of color) continues to exist in a society that today prides itself on colorblindness and even post-raciality. Quantitative polls that measure racial attitudes of whites today show a marked decrease in racial hostilities, however, these polls do not account for the complexities of frontstage and backstage racism, whereby whites manipulate racial performances for the settings that they are in. See Picca and Feagin’s research.

To understand the phenomenon of black women’s consistent exclusion by white men, I examined 134 contemporary white men’s thoughts, opinions, perspectives, and emotional reactions to black women as they expressed in in-depth online questionnaires. The findings reveal, overwhelmingly, that the white male respondents, despite most admittedly having very limited experiences with black women, held grossly negative views of them as culturally defunct, domineering, welfare queens, and unattractive unless representing a white aesthetic. For example, one respondent stated the following, when sharing his thoughts about black women:

Just the term ‘black women’ conjures up thoughts of an overweight, dark-skinned, loud, poorly educated person with gold teeth yelling at somebody in public. I hope that doesn’t make me racist but honestly that’s the 1st thing I think of (white male respondent)

This respondent is middle-class with no black female friends, rare interactions with black families growing up, and who states his interactions with black women only consist of work-related experiences, yet, he expresses strong racialized, gendered, and classed views of black women as the first impressions that come to his mind.

Another respondent, a middle class white male in his 40’s stated the following about black women and attraction:

Sexual attraction for me is a combination of physical and personal attributes. If I find a ‘black’ woman attractive, it is because their hair type and facial features are more representative of the [C]aucasian race. If that aspect is attractive, then their speech and intelligence level would have to be more representative of that found more prevalent in other races (such as [C]aucasian or [A]sian – i.e.: anthropological mongoloids.

This respondent, despite admitting to having no close black female friends and few personal interactions with black women, places whites and Asians as naturally more intelligent than blacks.

My research disputes convenient notions that only a few uneducated, southern bigots hold such strong deep-seated racist and sexist views of black women. The white male respondents in my study hold current and future leadership positions in society, with 42% possessing some college education, 30% a bachelor’s degree, and over 48% are middle class!

[Note: Brittany has a major book in the works on these issues and data.]

Comments

  1. ThirtyNine4Ever

    In my own study I have had a 0% success rate trying to hit on black women. What are the numbers on black women’s willingness to date white men? Is it just me?

    • twenora86

      I think it’s important to remember it is on a case-by-case basis. It may just that they weren’t feeling you as an individual, rather than it being a race thing.

      I personally am open to dating men of all races (I am a black woman), but have seen many of the obstacles mentioned here (and more) when interacting with white men.

      Also, I have noticed (especially online) when white men message me/talk to me there is an obvious sexualization of me compared to when black men hit on me or show non-platonic interest. And they’ll make sure to bring up that I’m black in the beginning, which is a huge turn off. There is already enough about the ‘jezebel’ stereotype regarding black women.

      Anyway, the point is ThirtyNine, that perhaps it isnt just your race (if at all) that contributes to your lack of success with black women.

    • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

      @ ThirtyNine – You’re one of my favorite RR commenters, and I really appreciate your having my back of sorts with the “straw man” issue and all. So I’ll relate some personal knowledge, and maybe that’ll help?

      Are black women willing to date white men? I can say unequivicolly, yes. Is that the preference? Unequivicolly, no. Have you seen the movie SOMETHING NEW with Sanaa Lathan and Simon Baker? They get at the reasons behind our hesitance very well. Since white man are the primary perpetrators of the US’s racist patriarchy, white men by and large are still viewed with suspicion. The way black woman conjures up all those negatives images for white men, as mentioned in the post, so does “white man” conjure up negative images for us. Don’t get me wrong, when it comes to a white male coworker or boss or salesman or cop, we can judge each guy on his own merits. But a white guy as a romantic partner? Uh, yeah, we don’t care to actually sleep with, or to put it better, we don’t care to bring that home with us. It’s one thing to put up with racialized sexism and sexualized racism outside our homes, but to actually bring that in the house? where we expect the most comfort and freedom? It’s not a brick wall, but it is a major mental hurdle to climb.

      Also, there’s what we know of white men as it relates to dating and black women. One, you don’t find us marriage material; two, when white men do date us, it’s either as an exotic adventure or a sexual one, due to our being stereotyped as hyper-sexual. We really don’t expect to be “hit on” by a white guy. So they may have not realized you were seriously interested in dating.

      And that’s assuming you didn’t approach them with some lame line like, “Did it hurt when you fell from heaven?”

      Keep in mind, time, place, and day plays a part, too. Did you approach these women after five on a work day? When they’re still stressed from work and here comes the “coworker/boss/salesperson/cop” white man you represent who just pissed them off not a couple hours ago? Or, was it earlier in the day on the weekend when they were still in a morning time, “new day” mood? Were you out in Vanilla City, or did you meet them on their on turf? Besides, there’re times when women just don’t want to be hit on, and that’s all women.

      Your lack of success has nothing to do with you personally. I actually think your race does play a part because of the meaning white skin carries with it. Whereas white men have limited experience with black women, we have tons of experience with you, the majority of which is not good. Even at it’s best, white skin still represents mainstream culture, a culture that negatively judges black culture, black women. Again, why bring judgment that “home?” “Home” is where I can speak black English. Will dating a white man change that?

      So, it’s not that your race puts you off the team, so to speak, just farther down the bench. You’re in the “Big Dance,” just probably a really, very high seed. But mind you now, VCU and Butler were seeded 13 and 11 respectively, and they made it to the Final Four.

      I hope that helps. If you’re interested, I have some other advice on meeting a black woman. I just didn’t want to make this comment twice as long as it already is!

      Good luck!

      • JamminCanadian

        Looks like you have a deep-seated sence of victimization. You see yourself as being a victim soley on the basis of your race and the white man as the chief perpetrator.
        You said if you invited him into your home he’d victimize you there as well.
        Would it shock you to hear that you see yourself below the white man, which is why you see him as your victimizer?
        The image we hold of ourselves can either put us over, or keep us under.

        I’ve given you a key piece of information to release you, now it’s up to you what you do with it.
        You decide now t

        • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

          JC – You’re responding to me?

          Hmm . . . Yeah, it is something to think about. But just so we’re clear, black women are victimized by society by what’s called racial microaggressions, yes? So regardless of how I imagine my position in society, not bringing racialized sexism into my home is just a matter of protecting my self. I mean, people who can afford it live in gated communities or apartment buildings with security guards. Do they think they’re below the rest of society?

          That said, I will give serious consideration to your info apart, of course, from how it applies here. But as far as my general self-image, yeah, that’s something I’ll think about.

        • Maybe in Canada you may not feel that way, but in America, with its 400 years of dehumanization and subordination of Black people, especially Black women, it’s an ongoing thing. Like that racist piece from Psychology Today that posits that Black women are the “least attractive” of all women.

          Black women in America have reasons to be suspicious of White men and it’s not about victimization either. It’s about being real and rational about White privilege and its historical legacy.

          Furthermore, most Black women prefer people who are most comfortable with, which is usually Black men whom we share our lives with. Like Blaque Swan said, most of us don’t want to bring racialized sexism into our personal and most intimate of lives. Read what happened to Jade who was disrespected repeatedly by her White husband and Dr. Laura. Halle Berry also.

          La Reyna

          • tina22

            I’m engaged to a white man and he treats me like a QUEEN.
            I believe if you feel inferior then yes, you will get treated that way (from any race).
            Halle Berry obviously has low self-esteem because every man she ever dated treated her bad. And as far as White men not wanting to date black women is a huge lie…. I have more white men trying to date me then black men, I am a dark skinned, slender, tall black women. I have to beat white men off with a stick ;-) From my Boss, to my co-worker, from a customer, to a business owner. ‘All type of white men’.
            Asian, Indian,and Mexican men have tried to date me as well.
            Look at Naomi Campbell, for instance, her white boyfriend left his wife for her, plus he’s a Billionaire. Kelly Rowland is dating a Multimillionaire and he’s VERY good to her.

          • Seattle in Texas

            Hello Tina22, you and your partner are in that very small percentage highlighted in the main post above. Best of luck to you both.

            I think U.S. history has shown that white men, what ever percentage that may be, have no problems having sexual relations with black women, and perhaps even dating–how ever that is defined, but very few commit to marriage. And as the main post notes above, when they do, it’s when black women tend to have whiter aesthetics, etc. We were talking about this in Texas a while back, and the biggest reason from the Black viewpoint on why this is, is that white men have temporary affairs with black women mainly out of curiosity. The same was suggested largely for white women who date black men too as either way, too often when dating does occur, the white person doesn’t want their family to know, and sometimes their friends. When dating does take place and friends and family do know, sometimes the pressures of the family and lack of support and acceptance for the relationship ensures there’s no chance for the relationship to develop into a full healthy partnership as would otherwise be if the white person were with someone their friends and family approved of–a non-black person. So, I think interracial relationships and marriages, particularly black/white, at least those that beat the odds and thrive, are pretty incredible in this society. Those that do last and thrive likely say much about the support they have too–at least the immediate.

            But in terms of marriages with white men and black women, I am curious what role SES plays? If this is more common among the middle + SES than lower? Though, there does seem to be some fetishism white guys who are into the hip hop scene seem to have with black women, though it appears, here they tend to date and even have children but not marry.

            But the article stated the negative stereotypes white men tend to hold of black women even when they have no black friends or experience with black women. It makes me wonder about those black women who do fit the stereotypes. They are the folks that first come to the minds in white men in a negative light, as if there is something fundamentally wrong with them or black culture in general. I always wonder about those who are the stereotypes–the scapegoats and those who are too often most marginalized. Yet those who perhaps most often, serve to most strongly resist the ideals of who or what white society says they should strive to be.

            But I wanted to share a song that was played on the local radio in Texas not too long ago–it’s a Jamie Fox parody, it’s called, “Forget I’m White” and has gotten mixed reactions. I put it here because it shows how alive and well these things are. While it’s making fun of white men dating black women and their lack of competence with the black culture, at least some sections of the populations in the south, etc., it serves to reinforce some of the overgeneralized stereotypes whites hold of blacks…. But in contrast, it plays on the overgeneralized white stereotypes of them eating healthy, etc. This is something played just recently (and I don’t know how far beyond this area it’s been played):

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1bsrFM76uY

            Here’s another one that hits on the white man black woman dating, “It doesn’t make me a racist” that’s been played that plays on stereotypes and has gotten mixed reactions:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSu6_ZB5vqE

            Anyway…going into 2012…and it seems as though this society has a very long way to go….

      • Nonjudgemental

        Blaque Swan,, I’ve been reading most of your replies and comments. After doing so I must admit I agree with many of the comments you have shared. However I as a middle age white male of a middle class income wonder if perhaps some of the problem with Thirty Nines’ asking why or for advise as far as “hitting on black woman” wouldn’t do better if his approach wasn’t hitting on a black woman. I’ve had several relationships with African American woman and as it happened I wasn’t hitting on them. We just hit it off. I do agree there is a stigma in this country about black woman as well as men. Also perhaps a certain amount of the same towards whites from blacks. We have a long way to go. But my point to shorten this message is,, I wasn’t hitting on the black woman I was in a relationship with. Let me add I found the black woman to be very much like the white woman I have been with,, wanting to be treated with respect and dignity. As I said before,, in each relationship I wasn’t looking for a relationship. It just happened.

        • Blaque Swan

          Thanks.

          Good point. Personally, I think the best thing to do with any woman of any race is just to introduce yourself, ie “Hi, my name is . . .” And hope you just hit it off, like you suggest.

    • natashamonroe

      Black women are interested but some aren’t ready. Not to be sour but u may not fit that womans idea of the acceptable white boy to date or bring home. Just like each white male has a preference if they were to cross over.

  2. Brittany Author

    Blaque Swan: The point that you make about black women’s collective experiences with white men is excellent. Sociologist Erica Chito Childs interviews black women about interracial marriage with white men and she finds a similar perspective as you have presented here, which is that black women understand how dominant society perpetuates them as a devalued body and the role white men historically and contemporarily play in that devaluation. This is why it is imperative to critically analyze white men’s perspective of black women, as they continue to possess status, power and control over society….Great thoughts Blaque Swan

  3. Nicthommi

    So does the fact that white women are held aloft as the epitome of feminine beauty trump the negative things that they have to say about black men in regards to dating choices?
    Because I’m fairly confident that if you polled white women, you would get similar results/answers. While the mandingo stereotype might entice some of them, the idea that black men are wild, uneducated criminals who have lots of illegitimate children would come up in an anonymous survey.
    I’ve had White and Asian women confide in me (I’m a black woman by the way) that they aren’t attracted to black guys, yet always get hit on by them. And then they ask me what is up with that. “Why do so many black guys hit on me?”
    While the black man/white woman combo might be more prevalent, let’s not act like these negative views of black people as a whole aren’t held by members of both genders.
    I would say that for whatever reason though, black men are okay being objectified for their sexual prowess.
    But Emmitt Till and the numerous stories that played out like the book “To Kill a Mockingbird” should remind black men of the role that white women played in their false imprisonment, torture, and lynching in the history of this country.
    Let’s not act as if all of the ills perpetrated by white people were solely as a result of the actions of white men.
    It’s just that black women seem to hold on to the memories and black men will chuck them when they get a chance to grab a white woman as a partner.

    @Thirty-nine. I hope you continue to approach black women that you find attractive, and I hope that you meet one who does not doubt your sincerity. I just found this blog b/c a friend forwarded this story to me(one who probably would not date a white man), and I’d say that you could just have the bad luck to meet women who are assuming that you have a fetish. Yet, if that was true, you wouldn’t be commenting or posing the question on a blog like this…

    @Blaque Swan, liked your response but would like to hear your thoughts about why lack of experience and exposure doesn’t discourage white female/black male couplings. Why are we such tough nuts to crack and the men aren’t?

    • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

      Thanks for the “like,” nicthommi. I’d give you a “like,” too if I could. -Too much time on FB, yeah, I know.

      Yeah, we all know that the negative views aren’t “gender specific.” No question about it.

      To your question, why do black men have a better chance with white women than black women have with white men? Hope you don’t mind, but I gotta list this out for my own sake -

      1 – As you say, white women are the epitome of female beauty, and just pure femininity. I doubt they’re really as docile as they’re stereotyped, but . . .

      The quick and easy answer to your question is that black men are more open to white women than white men are to black women; white women are more open to black men than white man are to black women. (So you could stop here if you like.)

      And lets face it, white women (sorry ladies) are still the “trophy,” a symbol that the man in question has arrived/is somebody. Not saying that Clarence Thomas doesn’t love Ginni with all his heart, but you know . . . “I’m not saying, I’m just saying.”

      Though, it’s only fair that I make mention of that fact that within the black community, there’s still a strain of the stereotype that white girls are easier than black girls. Ironic, huh?

      2 – In our culture, the men are the aggressor. That means that black men have more opportunities with white women than black women do with white men. Even if the majority of white women exclude black men totally, any one white woman may not. So it’s no surprise that any one black man thinks he, as an individual, has a chance with any one white woman, as an individual. Especially since #3

      3 – Of the sexual stereotypes we as black people face, “mandingo” is the only one that’s “better,” I guess. Black men can actually feel good about that one. Plus, if all you want is sex with no serious commitment, does it really matter that you yourself are being objectified, especially since you’re objectified up. In fact, when black men approach white woman, that’s part of what they know about white women, right? Chances are that she’ll assume he has, uh, more to offer. Mutual objectification carries little risk for black men.

      Here is another stopping point if you like. The preceding was the immediate explanation. What follows is just my attempt at biological and historical analyses.
      ________________________________________________________
      4 – I’m pretty sure this is my last point; but it’s a “two-for.” You mentioned holding on to memories. And since circumstances have afforded me all the time in the world to watch the Learning and Discovery channels and their affiliates, I can’t help but touch on evolutionary biology. Sorry, just gotta! LOL

      As the bearer of children, women have a biological imperative to remember anything that helps them choose the best mate. On the other hand, men have an imperative to rate their chances of success higher than they actually are. Sometimes, winning the game is all a matter of who’s more confident, right? And in that sense, all men are overly-confident.

      Once you take that into consideration, it makes sense that black women hold on to memories of the past while black men appear to chuck them at every opportunity.

      I say “appear to” because as you think about our history here, you have to remember that part of the whole dynamic is the emasculation of black men. Literally in that two white prostitutes could get innocent black men lynched, during which they’d be castrated, by accusing them of rape (re: Scottsboro boys). Socially in that white men could rape a a black woman, blame her, then kill any black man who sought justice. (In SLAVERY UNDER ANOTHER NAME, Douglas Blackmon tells of a black preacher murdered because he encouraged black women to reject white men’s advances.) With that in mind, rather than chucking memories at a chance for a white woman, it could very well be that black men are holding on those same memories but in a different way. Some black men remember the past and cherish black women all the more; some remember the past and remember never wanting ol’ “thin lipped, flat-butt” in the first place! Still others remember the past and seek to avenge it, even if subconsciously, by “evening” the score. Or at the very least, like I said earlier, claiming their fulling citizenship in a racialized patriarchal society.
      _________________________

      Sorry for such a long response. I really do try to keep these things as short as possible, believe it or not.

      • Nicthommi

        I love detailed response so thank you SO much for giving your thoughts. A friend send this article to me so I look forward to seeing what else is discussed here.
        It’s interesting. I have many friends who tried so hard to hold out for that one black man, and who took a lot of garbage from someone who looked good on paper who wasn’t so good to them in real life.
        A lot of my friends have wound up with white men. Not a deliberate choice but when they let go of the racial requirement, that’s where a lot of them wound up. And even THEY will say, be careful you know what a white mans’ motives are. Even the ones in happy loving relationships still take it as specific to themselves and not an idea that we’ve evolved so much.
        But it’s why the men who are willing and have good intentions face an uphill battle.
        I wish I could say that I’m surprised by the comments made in this article and during the survey, but you know, I’ve been trying online dating for several months and white men still feel comfortable emailing with special requests. The same men who list anything but black will make rather crude comments and requests. And my profile lists my school (very selective and famous), and the fact that I have 2 advanced degrees. Yet I’m still emailed by these men as if I’m less than a whore, b/c of course a whore would be getting paid.
        I’m familiar with the story of the Scottboro boys but I’ll have to look for the other book that you mention. Thanks for the reference.

        • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

          Oh, wow! It’s really good to meet you.

          Your friends sound cool. I have a friend whose grandmother married a white man when she, my friend, was young. This white man is the only grandfather my friend has known. And still her grandmother told her to stay away from white men. I thought that was hilarious! I mean, yeah, it speaks to how white men view black women – but it’s hilarious, too!

          For a time, white men had been off my list because I just can’t get those memories and thoughts out of my head. SOMETHING NEW the movie helped sway me. Especially that scene after their hike . . . But I digress. Any man I marry will have to be anti-racist, and hanging around people that just toss the n-word around like it has no meaning will be cause for divorce.

          If it means anything, I give my heartiest seal of approval to racismreview. The administrators are sociologists and college professors. Coming and engaging regularly has been like taking a grad course for free. Don’t get me wrong, there’re other great blogs to discuss social, political, and racial issues. It’s just that this is one that brings the academic, scientific study perspective. Just check out the category, “white racial frame,” and think to yourself, “I knew it!”

          As for SLAVERY BY ANOTHER NAME, it’s an important book. Just brace yourself. If you’re the type of person who’s only seen ROSEWOOD once years ago when it came out cause it makes you wanna punch white people in the face – you may wanna read it on the weekend. Also, SLAVERY BY ANOTHER NAME help elucidate where those crude comments come from – and that’s all I’m going to say about the crude comments.

    • Dr. Terence Fitzgerald

      Nicthommi, I appreciate your efforts, but I would say that I find your comment, “for whatever reason though, black men are okay being objectified for their sexual prowess,” as a false statement. I am a Black man who does not like to be objectified or admired primarily for my sexual prowess. Comments like these perpetrate a stereotype that follows us as it continues to follow Black, Asian, and Latino women. This and your Tyler Perry comment on our willingness to “chuck” Black women away for a White woman are not simply offensive, but dangerous. It is good to remember that the machine of White racial construct, that Dr. Feagin examines, equally affects the minds and actions of those being oppressed.

    • earthyknowledge

      Soory to write so much but I’ve never responded to a post before.

      I think we are such “tough nuts to crack and men aren’t” because black women have consistantly held a loyalty to the well being and hope for success of future black generations. Many variables have continued to push black men away, out of the home and away from their children leaving black women to raise children without the significant contributions of black men. And we have to be pretty tough cookies to do this. Nobody has our back. We view the black race as we do our own children. We hope that things will improve for blacks when smart black men and women hook up and create smarter black children. But when we see yet another smart black man pass up smart black women (for whatever reason) and choose a non-black woman we are stabbed by the potential hopelessness that our group may not make it. We keep hoping things will get better and our men will find their way back but I, for one, am losing that hope. I think black women are nearly alone in their hope for the black race and our men have wandered off unconcerned and never to return. In the mean time, we consider opening up to men of other races but we can feel everyday how America feels about us. It’s in the media every day, it’s in public opinion every day, it’s in politics everyday; that we are not viewed as women. We are just a big collection of sterotypes. If we speak up to defend ourselves or our children we are viewed as hostile and angry. If we take action we are viewed as aggressive. So we just cope as best we can.

      I have considered the company of non-black men but I can feel their disinterest. The rare ones that show interest think you are some kind of hooker. Although I have opened my mind to the possibility of keeping company with a white man; there has been no positive experience that I can call on to assist me in turning my mojo in their direction. I have never touched a white man (except in business hand-shakes), I’ve never stood close to one, I’ve never had a personal conversation with one. In my life they have only been “the man”, the mean judge in the courts, the racists on tv, the blowhard politician. In tv land there are very few loving couplings of white men and black women so I’m basically going to have to meet Jesus if it happens. I may just have to continue to love my own company because I’m so tired of trying to get the attentions of “my broutha”.

  4. John D. Foster

    A good thing to note too is that when you marry someone you inherit all that/who comes with him/her, including networks of friends, family, etc. Sure, the guy might be cool and all, but what happens when you visit his folks? Or friends?

  5. f_u_too

    What is this a Oprah studio audience? Have you people been outside lately? Racism is at an all time high and getting worst. Any Black woman that would date a white man deserve whatever she gets. Stop acting like something has changed when we all know nothing has changed. If you gonna date white men then say what you mean. “I want someone who will take care of me”, no matter how disgusting all that white flesh may look again my beautiful brown melanin infused skin.

  6. cordoba blue

    I think it’s appropriate on Mother’s Day to pay tribute to all the strong African American women who must be single moms. With absentee black fathers, or fathers who won’t even acknowledge the child is theirs, the strength of the African American mother must be almost super human under this kind of stress.
    That’s why anyone who takes issue with the “angry black woman” should realize she’s got white racism to deal with plus a chronic lack of responsibility of many black fathers. It’s getting to be endemic in poor black communities for black men to get a woman pregnant, then split. And it seems to be acceptable behavior now..among the men. While these black women suffer with the stress of child-rearing..it’s not just white men who are hostile to black women..they get it from all sides.

    • John D. Foster

      @cordoba blue: Ditto on your shout out to all the moms out there, but with all due respect I take issue with your categorical label of Black dads as not being there. I know of no research that shows Black dads care less for their kids than dads of other racial groups. Also note that absenteeism isn’t always voluntary–note the higher incarceration rate for Black men than white non-Hispanic men–and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for those (such as yourself) who claim that Black men are bad dads and/or don’t care about their kids. A structural perspective is needed to understand the higher percentage of single-parent/female-headed households for Blacks vis-a-vis whites.

      • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

        In fact, a study showed that among fathers not in the home, black fathers spend more time with their kids than fathers of other racial groups.

        I’ll also add that the rate of unemployment, the pay discrimination, etc, etc also has an effect on black men’s feeling financially secure enough to marry.

        Unless we stigmatize all men who aren’t married to the mother of their children, the mainstream stereotyping of black men as pathologically bad fathers is . . . wrong. Like you said, a structural perspective is needed. I’m not making excuses, just stating facts.

  7. cordoba blue

    http://newsone.com/nation/newsonestaff3/children-single-parents-u-s-american/
    Here’s a study from a black news-site that states 74% of single families in America are African American as compared to the 25% nation wide. If not for the matriarchal system within the black community, black children would not have homes. Spending time with children is not the same as paying the bills. If black women can shoulder two roles: provider and parent..then their male partners can also, right?
    Black men are not pathologically poor fathers. They have, however, adopted a culture that passes the responsibility of having a relationship with a woman solely on the shoulders of the woman. If it’s not frowned upon, in other words, it proliferates. “Everybody’s doing it” is the justification here. I know several black women who are frustrated with the lack of involvement their black partners have with the children. It’s not exactly a rarity.
    And by the way, I do stigmatize all men who will have intimacy with a woman, and then walk away.The point is that black women have a harder time with this because of the racial discrimination they face ON TOP of their men neglecting the consequences of this relationship.

    • Nicthommi

      I agree with cordoba…and I think that the habit of apologizing and accepting excuses for why black men don’t marry the mothers of their children does us no favors.

      Bad lot or not, black men are choosing to make babies with women that they don’t ever intend to marry at much higher rates than what occurs for other races (and let’s be honest, as far as the legal justice system is concerned, outcomes for Latinos aren’t much if at all better for them). There are more black men out there who have children with multiple women, are married to none of them, and who offer financial and emotional support to none of them, or offer just a bare minimum.

      It would seem that if you feel that you aren’t financially secure enough to be a husband, you would take necessary precautions to make sure that you don’t become a father, because that is much more expensive (since your baby can’t go out and get a job the way that your baby’s momma can).

      This is just anecdotal, but I’ve observed men of other races step up to women that they were unsure about once a baby was on the way-right or wrong, they at least did it. And even if a divorce results, it does make usually mean that financial responsibilities and paternity are clearly established (child support can be hard to get no matter what, but in most states, a married man is assumed to be the legal father of any children produced during his union).

      No one is suggesting that black men don’t love their kids, but it seems as if plenty are okay letting the children’s mothers, who aren’t any better of than they are, shoulder the entire responsibility of raising the child. Love doesn’t pay any rent, and a trip to the park with your “little man” doesn’t put food in his stomach or send him to college.

      And this has got to stop. Women should not have babies for men who aren’t committed to them, and men should not make babies if they don’t want to assume financial responsibility for the families that result from those relationships.

      What I hate most of all, are comments like the one above, that will still find fault with black women for all of this. The idea that black women flock to white men to get taken care of is ludicrous. I don’t think any group of women accepts less than black women, and in fact, while I don’t know anyone purposely “flocking” to white men, if you decide to look for a man who is equally educated and as fiscally responsible as you, to few of them share your skin color. And the idea that it makes you superficial is absurd. You see how far we have fallen if expecting a man to be a responsible man who takes care of his kids is somehow superficial? Or if someone could equate a woman who wants a man who will marry her first and help support his children makes her a lazy women who wants someone to take care of her? (as the commenter above suggested)

      Why do so many of the discussions on this topic leap over the men and the things that they aren’t doing and immediately attack the women?

      And this post was about white men’s views on black women…not an attack on black women who want as much as they are willing to give, which they fully deserve. If I ever have kids, they’ll be with a man who has married me first, who can pay his bills and support his kids, and who can contribute to the financial well-being of the family. That is non-negotiable.

  8. Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

    @ nicthommi – Glad to see you’re still around!

    To the question of black fathers, I feel like this: one the level of the individual, some people need a good session with the stupid stick! But on the level of the community, if other racial group were in our position, not just economically but socially and culturally, the numbers would be similar. So while I don’t make excuses for individuals, I also can’t bring myself to hold us to same standards of other communities who’re in better circumstances.

    A study written about in THE ECONOMIST magazine, I think, explains how the slightest change in the number of eligible bachelors in a given area/group can have exponential consequences. Most people track the exponential rise in black female-headed households to the 70s. Coincidently, the 70s is also when the drug war began. Add to this that people still want to have sex; women still want to have children; and, American society prevents black men from being “men” and “fathers” in the conventional, Euro-American way. Once we consider all the social factors, what’s happening in black America is not unique.

    All that said, the fact still remains that the absent black father is, by-and-large, a myth. And the solution to the problem is more than just that people should take personal responsibility for the children. That goes without saying, and the majority of black fathers do. But if what we’re talking about is the Euro-American idea of a nuclear family, things are more complicated than they appear.

    As for black women taking the fall for these things, Zora Neale Hurston said it best: black women are the mules of the world.

    • Nicthommi

      Oh I am definitely around. I like this blog and I enjoy the commentary. I agree, economic outcomes do impact the state of the black family. But I also point out that economic outcomes, graduation rates, conviction rates, etc. are VERY bad for Latinos. And while that term is problematic and encompasses people of various shades/hues, their negative stats in many areas equal ours, yet the state of their families does not seem to be nearly as fragile as ours. They might have a lot of poverty and fathers who get sent to prison, but those fathers seem to think that it is important to marry their mothers.
      I currently mentor high school kids and again, just anecdotal, but I see the poor Latino kids mostly have married parents but the black kids do not. My mom has been teaching for decades, and our state has had a HUGE influx of Latinos (largely Mexican), and again, those kids mostly have two parents, but my mom deals with either single moms or grandmothers (b/c we are far enough into the epidemic of illegitimate births in the black community that the children of the first and second waves of largely single black mothers have continued the cycle-20-30 years ago, the kids who had unmarried moms at least had a grandfather married to the grandmother in the house).

    • Nicthommi

      You know, shortly before he died, Peter Jennings did a report on black woman and marriage and he also looked at the economic and social factors that are affecting the marriage rates of black women…he did a good job, and it was very accurate. From purely a numbers game, by the time you reach marriage age, we have a gender imbalance within the black community. And it only gets worse as you move up the socio-economic ladder.

      One major remedy would be for black women to exercise all of their options. Of course, as the original article here points out, even when we are being open-minded, we’ll encounter a lot of men who aren’t. It’s hard. So we won’t get as much as we offer even when we are open to men of other races. I mean, being fetishized is not ideal, but at least Asian women are held up on a pedestal by white men who’ll marry them. They benefit from being seen by some as actually superior to white women…smarter, thinner, smaller, more submissive (not universally true by a long shot, but the stereotypes work in their favor, not against them, as they do for us).

      So I have black friends who are single, stubbornly holding out for that one black man, some regularly accepting less than they are worth, and then I’m trying to be open-minded but regularly get shut out and ignored (on both sides really). I think my color works against me on both sides(being black rules you out for a lot of non-black men, being deep brown instead of carmel or yellow rules me out for a lot of black men), and my education works against me on one side but isn’t enough to win me any points on the other (b/c that isn’t how or why men pick you as a partner).

      I don’t know…I have loads of good white male friends that I know think highly of me as a person, but I have no idea if I’d met them when they were single if they’d have ever considered me. Of course, I’ll admit that for many years, I wasn’t trying to consider any of them either.

      • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

        Well . . . Latino women are thought to be more submissive than black women, and they’re definitely coming from a different cultural definition of manhood. This is purely speculation on my part, but it does seem that the stereotype is that Latino men can still be what they would call “a man” whereas black men can’t quite all meet our Anglo-American standard of masculinity. And because a lot of immigrants are single men, there’s not the gender imbalance we have. I mean, yeah when it comes to marriage, their numbers are better. But it doesn’t strike me as inexplicable.

        As for marriage options – you know that scene in SOMETHING NEW when they’re coming in from hiking? Yep, that scene turned me onto white men. Up to that point, they just didn’t strike me as masculine. They meet the Anglo-American standards for “manhood” except that they don’t really have to work for it. They’re born on third base, so to speak. As for personal physical traits, yeah, things work in my favor. I’m caramel-complected – probably lighter. I have a baby-face and can present a small frame. I’m aware of all that, and I just can’t imagine being with someone who wasn’t also aware in the same way. You know what I mean? I need someone, whatever the race, who is aware of racism and colorism.

        • Nicthommi

          I guess I’m not sure why Latino women being more submissive makes them more marriageable. At least not in terms of marrying other Latino men. I think that the Latino community is much too diverse to make that generalization though. A Nuyorican is not the same as a Chicano in LA. Not by a long shot. The stereotypes work for or against you with people of other races, but within your own race, you are what you are.

          The fact remains that poor Latinos don’t let being poor an uneducated keep them from fulfilling their social, emotional, and financial obligations as fathers. All of the Latino kids that I mentor have dads in their lives. Dads who get permission to leave their jobs so that these kids get picked up from the evening program where we work with them. The black kids have to wait on the bus. No dads.

          Actually, I grew up in an all-white environment, and all of the colorism nonsense that seems to have infected black communities wasn’t an issue. Honestly, I found that my white friends didn’t see those differences in hue the way that black people did, evidenced by the fact that you could be confused with or compared to someone who wasnt’ your color at all. So do you mean that your appearance is an advantage with white men or black men. It sounds like it would be for black men, but the white men quoted in this article wouldn’t care, and the rest would only care about finding you appealing. For example, the white husband of one of my friends cannot fathom why anyone goes nuts for Beyonce. And another thinks Serena Williams is the best thing ever (not sure how many black men would say that).

          I hate anecdotal evidence, but a lot of the women that I’ve seen wind up with white partners don’t fit the narrow paradigm of beauty that black men seem to worship. There just isn’t an expectation of what you should look like. So I’m not sure if you date white men or not, but the ones who are serious about dating black women don’t care if you are dark chocolate or buttercream.

          You’d be surprised though by the way that some people can learn, even if it’s not their own experience. It’s just a matter of being willing to listen and learn.

          Black women are nothing new to black men. And in the past, black men faced much worse odds in this society, yet they USED to marry women and take care of their families. The trend towards single parenthood has been skyrocketing in the last 40 years. Why were black men okay being men when there were actual laws written to strip them of their rights and dignity?

          I think we have to be careful of rewriting or ignoring history to rationalize why black men are not currently fulfilling their obligations. The black family was much stronger when we had much less.

          And I think that it’s the people who make apologies and excuses for them that perpetuate the problem that we face here.

          Interesting that you never thought white men were masculine. What could be more manly than a man who lives to make the lives of his wife and children as easy and comfortable as possible (no, not all white men do this but if you grow up around affluent ones, it’s the image that you have). And the ones who are secure in their place have a noticeable cockiness and swagger.

          The thing that was odd about the movie Something New is that she wound up with a blue color white man…didn’t she? My friends who are married to white men married ones who were similarly educated.

          • cordoba blue

            And I think that it’s the people who make apologies and excuses for them that perpetuate the problem that we face here.

            Totally agree! I don’t think African American men need someone to make excuses for them if they are being irresponsible. This totally negates the whole concept of taking ownership for the consequences of your behavior. Plus, by not marrying their partners with chilren, what kind of role model are they setting for other black young men? If a black teenager sees his uncle refuse or think it’s “a superficial problem” to marry the woman who is having his child, what do you think that teenager will do if he has a girlfriend expecting a child? The same thing!
            My mother perpetually excused the poor behavior of my brother when he was growing up. Our dad died when he was 10, so my mother gave him plenty of latitude. When he was rude to family relatives, she said,”He’s having a bad day”. When he neglected to acknowledge her birthday or Mother’s Day, she’d say, “He’s so busy with work. He probably forgot.”
            When he dated a woman and they’d argue, she would consistently defend my brother’s stance. The upshot? He’s 54, single, never married, fired from his job, and has maybe 2 friends on the entire planet.
            How does this relate to racism? It relates plenty. Racism is a disadvantage, just like my father’s death. Racism hurts, just like growing up with a single parent. But to be a Man, a real Man by World Standards..you have to stop the victimology meme at some given point and be a kind, empathetic human being..not some swaggering synonym for a man..critizing everything under the sun for your failings except your own foolish and selfish decisions.

          • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

            First, most black guys I know give Beyonce and Serena about equal marks as far as sexual attractiveness.

            To the meat of the matter, submissive wasn’t the right word; I actually meant something more like “domestic.” I could still be wrong, but I meant something more like domestic than submissive. Also, are Latinas alleged to have “attitude” like black women are? Not the hot-headed Latino stereotype, than “bad attitude” stereotype black women have. I’d guess outside the community, they aren’t. But as we’ve seen, I don’t know how they’re perceived within the community.

            I don’t want to make excuses as in it’s okay. Cause it’s absolutely true that the black family used to be so much stronger. I’ll only remind you that the drug war started 40 years ago; and, that any change in the number/rate of marriageable men in a community has a profound impact within the community. So it’s no surprise that, as you point out, single parenthood has been increasing in the last 40 years. There’s no need to rewrite history, only look at the whole picture.

            To be sure, 67% of black children live in single-parent homes whereas 40% of Latino and 24% of white children live in single-parent homes.

            4.6% (4,618 per 100,000) of black males are incarcerated, 6 times more than white males. The incarceration rate for Latino males is 1.7%, twice the rate of white males which is .7% (http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/64). So my ignorance of Latino cultural values aside, there’re the numbers.

            These numbers are not in equal proportion to rates of crime. So the disparities in single-parenthood, even between black and brown communities, coincides with disparities in incarceration, not with increasing level of criminality or irresponsibility.

            Again, it’s not about excusing black men as in saying it’s okay. I admit to being vested in vindicating black men of the “deadbeat (dad)” myth, but the numbers back me up.

            As for why I hadn’t seen white men as masculine – I grew up in a rural community of middle to working class (98%) black families, a lot of whom used to farm, or at least pick cotton. So not only does “man” unlabeled mean “black man” to me; but also, black men who used to farm shaped my normative standard of masculinity. They all worked hard to make us all as comfortable as possible. My grandfather also owned a laundromat, so I’m acquainted with the “management” side of things, as it were. But where I grew up and live, a real man has calloused hands, even if it’s just from yard work, ie mowing the lawn, pulling weeds, tilling a garden, etc.

            Because of my parents’ civic activities and my mom’s being a teacher, I’ve always been acquainted with people of different races. But the white men I met always had on suits or PE teacher’s gear, and they were always professionals, ie teachers, businessmen, politicians.

            Come to think about it, the only two white classmates I had ever crushed on had calloused-hand backgrounds. But that was back in elementary school.

            From then through college, all the white guys I met, with a few exceptions to be sure, had this frat-boy arrogance about them. (Well, unless they were “white trash” and knew it.) And it only got worse as we got older.

            So my image of the typical white man is that of an over-indulged frat boy with baby-soft hands who’s too self-congratulatory to notice or care about all the free passes he’s given. I have to add, due to several reasons, I’ve been exposed to whites’ “backstage” performances. So I know stuff, you know? White men’s swagger has always been off-putting to me because it was either unearned, snobbish, or both. So I guess it would take a movie involving a white landscaper, with clearly calloused-hands, who felt his black love interest looked better without weave, to turn me. But, to be sure, you know the specific scene I’m talking about right? It’s the scene, not the movie, that changed my mind. And Simon Baker’s character practiced law before going into landscaping, so he was equally educated with accountant Kenya.

            My experience with whites and colorism is different from yours, too, I guess. Yeah, one lady said me and friend could be twins even though my friend is several shades darker than I. But we see how they lighten us for magazine covers, re Precious, and the difference in how they imagine Obama – liberals see him as lighter than he is and conservatives as darker.

            I’ve always managed better treatment than my darker-complected friends. Using my soft white voice (I have different white voices) can get me double! The only time I can think of when I was unintentionally threatening to a white person was in high school, and that was when a white boy acted like he thought I was about to rape him. Cause we all know black girls are hyper-sexual and if one touches you, she’s about to rip your clothes off.

            All that said, I don’t knock a black woman for keeping her options open, marrying outside our race, etc. Lord how I wish more people would wait until they’re married before having kids. Still, to quote Tim Wise, a white guy, there’s nothing wrong with black men that an end to racism wouldn’t fix. That doesn’t mean we wait until racism’s over before doing better; it means aside from, “We’re wrong. We’re sorry. We’re going to stop profiling black men and putting them in the system,” mainstream America got nothing to say on the issue.

    • cordoba blue

      “American society prevents black men from being “men” and “fathers” in the conventional, Euro-American way.”
      Yet another broad generalization which has no specified meaning. So black men can’t be “genuine fathers” because of white America? Huh? And what is so “Euro-American” about the concept of supporting one’s family? Excuse me, but all over the world, it’s considered appropriate and the norm for men to support their off-spring.
      As I’ve mentioned before, if black men choose to stay in school, they can attain a comfortable middle class life. There are racial barriers along the way, but not enough to prohibit them from supporting a family if they assert themselves. And no..it’s not the exception to the rule that black men can attain middle class status..the key factor is motivation. A sense of responsibility and the desire to succeed. You are STILL making excuses for why black men should not even be expected to support a family. Like it’s just a total aberration if this actually does happen.And this STILL leaves black woman with an overwhelming burden.
      Also: “if other racial group were in our position, not just economically but socially and culturally, the numbers would be similar.” Pure unadulterated speculation. Which study did you base this on? Like I said, I can’t take “conjecture” to the bank. It’s yet another excuse tactic.
      What is so repulsive about personal responsibility? Why does the mere mention of this immediately throw you into a defensive mode? Individuals can still make decisions about where their life is going. You are emasculating black men by making the claim that some racism totally prevents them from behaving like..men.
      And too many black men are too willing to hide behind this meme to escape responsibility..and you’re helping them do it.

  9. cordoba blue

    No wonder you graduated from a world-famous prestigious college..you certainly sound like you have a superior mind to me! Very glad to make your acquaintance. I have 2 bachelor’s degrees and 2 teaching certificates myself. However, although my college was a good one, it wasn’t on the level yours was!
    I appreciate discussions with truly intelligent, articulate, and level-headed people. You cut right to the chase too..direct and incisive. Please stick around and continue to comment. I appreciate that you saw the point I was trying to make also.
    And yes, I can see how somebody with your degree of smarts would find it hard to find a mate. Men in general are a little intimidated by women who can hit the target behind their back while tied in Houdini knots…blind-folded!

      • Nicthommi

        Thanks for the compliment.
        You know, the story you tell is one that I’ve seen played out in the lives of people that I know.
        I have a younger sister, and we both went to Ivy League colleges and have advanced degrees. I was first in my high school class. She was 2nd in hers. But I have college classmates who have brothers who dropped out of high school and who do absolutely nothing. And I’ll point out that several of the families that I know for whom this is the case are affluent and the parents are well-educated.
        So what is the excuse/reason for that? That’s not a matter of economics of some down-trodden young black man who had no advantages or help.

        What I do see is the mothers and fathers making excuses for why junior got kicked out of private school, why he didn’t finish high school, why he doesn’t go to college, and why he isn’t responsible for supporting his illegitimate kids. Yet his sister will be a doctor, lawyer, exec, etc.

        We have a family friend who has two kids by a girl that his wealthy parents support. I have another friend who would go off on her older brother’s baby mamma for being late to pick up the baby on the weekends, or for failing to bring enough diapers, clothes etc.; I’ll point out that her brother would never stay in to care for his own child, and never bothered to buy groceries, diapers, supplies, etc. to keep in his mom’s home, where he lived, so his child would have a comfortable environment. I asked my friend why on earth she blamed the baby’s mother for everything. i had to ask why she was serving as free child care for the brother who couldnt’ be bothered to see the child that he helped create for eve a day. (he was out clubbing/partying etc. when the baby was supposed to be in his care; and he was NOT a young boy…he was in his late 20′s). Oh, and that friend has two Ivy League degrees and her sister graduated from an honors program and then attended an Ivy grad school AND a prestigious European grad school (got degrees from both). But their brother dropped out of high school.
        Many black woman make due with less b/c the men in their lives, fathers, brothers, etc. do not pull their weight. And we have to stop being okay with that.
        But none of this is caused by racism. It’s caused by us accepting that black men are inherently trifling (b/c of society?) and oppressed, and shouldn’t be held to the same standards as other men.

  10. Seattle in Texas

    cordoba blue, if only white society were as serious about taking ownership and responsibility for the honest white supremacist history of U.S. society and the systemic effects its had on Black society in particular (consider whites and Blacks were forced into two different trajectories….where whites inevitably gain immense unjust psychological and environmental unjust rewards and privileges at the direct cost of Blacks in particular, whites hogged all the wealth and resources, etc….considering both whites and Blacks have been in U.S. society since ‘the beginnings’ of its racist formation), as well as the responsibility and ownership for the various types of racisms that have survived, morphed, and formed up into current times, as you are on targeting Black men, overgeneralizing and stereotyping them, and hell bent on blaming them for all the social problems that exist in Black communities.

    I’m sorry, but who was the first in this nation to get Black women pregnant and deny their own children and forbid them to marry? Who prevented Black men from having the opportunity to be fathers to their own children and husbands to those they loved and had children with, from the very beginnings? These questions could continue on. But you don’t see white society as having anything at all to do with any negative outcomes that are disproportionately problematic with Black society(s) today? Nothing?

    And I don’t mean to pry…but may I ask if you’ve ever been to Texas?

  11. cordoba blue

    @ Seattle who said,
    I’m sorry, but who was the first in this nation to get Black women pregnant and deny their own children and forbid them to marry?
    Seattle, you are not using common sense. Why does the fact that white slave-owners used and abused black women slaves, Excuse PRESENT day black men for doing the very same thing? Does this total lack of reasoning not strike you as a rather odd rebuttal?
    What exactly is your logic? “White Men Did It First!” So that means black men doing it TODAY (shamefully neglecting black women and burdening them with no conscience)is perfectly acceptable? Say what? What kind of nonsense is that? It doesn’t even make sense.
    Also, nobody is claiming racism doesn’t hamper black people in general. Yet, You are Claiming that racism totally lets black Americans off the hook for any or all responsibility. I think we’re looking at two extremes here.
    As I asked on this site once before, what do you suggest black people do until there’s this Great White Awakening when all racism will terminate for eternity? Are they supposed to roll over and die? Or try, like everyone else, to lead productive lives?
    The person above, Nicthommi, is a black woman who went to an Ivy League College. Does that not tell you anything Seattle? Maybe she did not receive the memo that African Americans are doomed to fail because of the White Man.
    Again, you take an extremist approach. You are in denial about the benefits of personal responsibility. Many negligent black fathers would be encouraged, in their continued disrespect for Afrian American women, by cheerleaders of anti-social and self-destructive behavior such as yourself.Please understand, the victims of absentee African American fathers are their OWN CHILDREN…Not White People. Do you not understand this?

  12. Dr. Terence Fitzgerald

    I find the comments on this piece helpful, but dangerous. As a woman would be upset or concerned if a man simply threw out ideas pertaining to certain actions or stereotypes being true or false, I think Black men would be quite concerned and upset with the rhetoric being thrown around here. In fact I am upset and concerned. Many points have been validly made here, but when it comes to what Black men admire (sexual prowess) and our love for White women over Black women is exactly the riff needed for the current system of oppression to function. Simply put, tread carefully. The struggle to free yourselves from restraints can become your very shackles.

    • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

      I read your other comment as well as this one. From everything I can gather, black men are more willing than are black women to date inter-racially. But within all racial groups, men are more willing to cross the color line than are women. As far as women go, it appears that black women are more willing than white women to date inter-racially.

      So how do we end up with the overwhelming majority of black/white marriages being black men and white women? It’s the opposite where Asians are concerns, with twice as many Asian women marrying out than Asian men.If we assume that black men’s openness to inter-racial dating has more to do with their being men than anything race-related, shouldn’t white women’s exclusion of black men result in a more evenly split difference in black/white marriages involving black husbands-white wives and white husbands-black wives?

      Several studies have shown that among women, black women are least desirable; and Asian men are least desirable of all men. On that level, where race is factored, it makes sense to me that more black men than black women have white partners (among heterosexuals, at least, cause I don’t know the numbers were LGBT relationships are concerned). One researcher even suggested that one reason white women were open to black men was their attraction to “the bad boy.”

      I guess, from what I can see, if black men are opposed to being fetishized, there doesn’t seem to be a big push to stop it. A push to stop the fetishizing, that is, as data supports the “myth.” I’m aware of the push back where it concerns the idea that black men fetishize white women as trophies.

      So, accepting that no one is being fetishized or objectified, how is it that more black men marry white women than black women marry white men? Internalized anti-black woman bias? Are too many black women holding out for the perfect black man? What’s going on?

      To be sure, I understand black men being upset with the rhetoric if objectification is occurring in only a minority of cases. Still, I’d just like clarity on the issue.

  13. Joe

    Blaque Swan, good questions. the key to many of the white-Asian marriages is the many of them are white soldiers and Asian women from Japan, Vietnam, Korea — where US invaded or occupied. They are a different case, often, from other intermarriage situations. There is also the bride “trade” in Asian women and East European women, too.

      • Nicthommi

        Actually, that’s not true. When you are talking about interracial marriages between Asian women and white men that involve Baby Boomers and Gen X and younger, than you are DEFINITELY talking about Asian Americans and not Asian immigrants. You do realize that the statement isn’t even logical, given that the people that he’s talking about would be in their 70′s, 80′s or up. So it’s the majority of anything, plus interracial marriages were much less accepted in that time frame (esp. WWII). At that point in history, those women were not sought after by white men.
        There might be a “Trade” in international brides, S. Asian, Russian, etc., but that is NOT a huge segment of the population, and it does not account for the bulk of the Asian/White marriages in the U.S.
        Asian Americans women are marrying the guys that they grew up with. Their ideas about why Asian men aren’t suitable comes from being BORN and RAISED in the U.S. The kinds of marriages that you mention is very small. And the women who enter into those arrangements come from very poor countries, so many of the places that are mentioned above (with the exception of Vietnam) has women who are far too affluent to need to marry to come to the U.S. Korean, Chinese and Japanese women immigrate on their own for jobs and school, and when that happens, they largely still marry within their own groups. There countries are affluent, and they have access to educations, and the men within their countries are the same. Chinese and Japanese Americans are AMERICAN, and they are heavily influenced in ideas about masculinity by what they see growing up, just as black men are influenced in their views on beauty. The real question is WHY those people are more swayed than black women and Asian men.
        I’m guessing that neither of you know many Asian Americans…because of my education and industry, I work with more Asians and Indians than any other group, currently live in an area with a larger percentage of Asian Americans (and I mean 3rd and 4th generation people) and what you are saying doesn’t hold water, and if you look up the census data (as I did), it simply isn’t true.

        • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

          ??

          Were you responding to me or Joe?

          No, I didn’t check the specific as for as one generation or another. But in general, it’s like 2:1 the ratio of Asian women in interracial relationships than Asian men.

          The African-American population also saw increases in interracial marriage, with the number of blacks participating in such marriages roughly tripling since 1980, the study said. About 16 percent of African-Americans overall are in an interracial marriage, but researchers point out a gender difference: It’s more common for black men to marry outside of their race than for black women.

          The gender difference was the reverse in the Asian population surveyed. Twice as many newlywed Asian women, about 40 percent, were married outside their race, compared with Asian men, at about 20 percent.

          http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-04/living/pew.interracial.marriage_1_interracial-marriages-millennial-generation-race-and-ethnicity-matter/2?_s=PM:LIVING

          • Nicthommi

            Hi@BlaqueSwan,
            I was responding to Joe…just saying that whether or not someone’s “Asian” bride was imported, recent immigrant, or Asian American would vary based on age.

            So I’m not disputing that Asian American women marry out of their race a lot, I was just pointing out that if you are talking about war brides, you’re talking about VERY old women since we are 70 years from WWII and 40 years from Vietnams (approximately in both cases).

            And it’s just anecdotal that SOME, just SOME of my Asian American peers (30 something women) hold negative stereotypes about Asian men AND place white men and their perceived physical features as reasons why they prefer them. And you’ll hear similar things repeated by white men who date Asian women.

            Stereotypes aren’t good, in my opinion, whether they are good (like the ones about Asian women) or (like the ones about us as black women) b/c it objectifies you and takes away your individuality. I also think it colors how you are treated in very negative ways.

            A bit off topic, but had been away and wanted to reply.

  14. Nicthommi

    @blaque swan, I was raised in an environment that was 98% white, and pretty much my entire life has been spent that way. I am close enough to enough white people that we can have open and frank coversations, and growing up, I was definitely seen by them as one of them, so you definitely HEAR a lot more than most people in that situation. I shouldn’t even make it seem as if it’s overhearing. You’re part of the conversation, which isn’t the same as being talked about if you get my drift(I went to the same private school for 13 years).

    I’ve noticed that people who didn’t grow up around a lot of people of other races read the “cues” that those people send out in an entirely different way than those of us who did.

    Don’t get me wrong, there is definitely a swagger that some smug privileged people have (think Donald Trump or George Bush), but there is also just an harmless kind of confidence that comes from knowing that your hard work is more likely to pay off without any obstacles being thrown in your way.

    I can say that even though I grew up around extremely wealthy people who didn’t have to worry about much, they weren’t annoyingly cocky or smug. And certainly not at any higher rate than the black men that I’ve encountered as an adult. B/c it isn’t seen as quite as much of a negative trait on them, I’ve noticed a lot of men who have been successful in some way that is valued by society will wind up being annoying and cocky about it. And I think that the small number of highly successful black men are esp. prone to that. As I mentioned, I went to some very elite schools, and it is probably the worst there. And yet, I found my white classmates, perhaps because even at that level are a bit more commoditized, did NOT have that kind of insufferable attitude about their success. Those successful white men still have to compete for women. It’s just not that big of a deal to have an advanced degree, to be a doctor, to go to a good school.

    I also think that what the white men you know are responding to is not necessarily what you think. Esp. if you have different speech patterns that you use with them. Perhaps your “white” voice sounds coquettish to them. I only have one voice, and I personally think that sharing similar backgrounds and being familiar with the same things (or being perceived to be that way), is what people of other races respond to (assuming that their isn’t some huge degree of racism that prevents them from seeing you as anything other than your race-then none of this matters). But I know that what works for me is that my experience relates better to the white men that I meet rather than the black men. I speak more than one language. I’ve traveled a lot. The things that I grew up doing, the things that I enjoy, the things that I know are all familiar to them (and if I’m meeting someone that I’ve just met, you can see the body language shift once they feel comfortable that you are “like” them), and they will probably assume the same of you if you are managing to “sound” the right way.

    • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

      there is also just an harmless kind of confidence that comes from knowing that your hard work is more likely to pay off without any obstacles being thrown in your way

      emphasis mine

      Yeah, that’s what I take issue with. The “without obstacles” part. I’d feel better if it were more relief than confidence.

      And yeah, I can sound coquettish when I want. But in general, it’s just a more “proper” accent. I conjugate ‘be’-verbs, pronounce “-ing,” that type of thing. I also use a different pitch, but not so soft and high as to be coquettish. Just enough to sound like white women my age.

      Don’t get me wrong, I’ve met many white guys I think are cool. They just still have baby-soft hands. It’s the soft-hands that disqualifies them from being masculine. Not the swagger.

      • Nicthommi

        @Blaque Swan,
        I don’t disagree with you, I’m just saying that it’s not always cocky. There are just things that some people don’t have to think about, but you have to admit that there is the annoying kind of cocky swagger and the more harmless kind of “oh really, I didn’t know that” and if it’s the kind of person who is willing to listen to what I have to say and who can admit that there is more than one reality besides the one that he inhabits, and that that reality is shaped by our gender and race, then we can be friends.

        So I think we are in agreement.

        I also noticed another post in another older thread by you that reminded me of something else. I think that when despite the negative views that some white men hold about black women, I feel that in the workplace at least, it can be easier for us. We just aren’t seen as a threat or as directly competing with them so I’ve always gotten good support from older, white male superiors.

        I think black women might collectively have an easier time with white men than black men do.

        • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

          Cool beans! (Cool beans to your response re: Asian women/white men relationships, too.)

          No, we’re not a threat. Though, I’m not sure if I’m always okay with that. You know? I usually go along until I feel threatened, then I swell up like a cobra. I mean, I know it’s not exactly a good thing, but, it is nice to know I have the ‘angry black woman’ card in my back pocket if I need it.

          As for black men’s status in society . . . there are moments when I worry for the men in my family.

  15. cordoba blue

    Nicthommi said: “I personally think that sharing similar backgrounds and being familiar with the same things (or being perceived to be that way), is what people of other races respond to.”
    Nicthommi, Thank you for being here. Yes. Yes..ALL DAY LONG. Took the words right out of my heart. I have African American friends. And what do I like about them? They are highly educated, articulate, very much value education etc. Commonality of interest. I don’t even SEE their color. They’re just my buddies.
    I have many Asian American friends also because I’m a private ESL tutor. What you are saying about Asian American woman is common knowledge. So YES to that all day long too, by the way.The Asian kids are virtually taking over the Ivy League colleges as you know. They are directed by family members to focus, work, focus, work..until they can surpass us spoiled Americans in every academic area, from age 4! I know cause I tutor the children too..in their homes.
    I have many times maintained that what is construed as racism is actually a cultural gap. I recently started tutoring a woman from Russia. She went to college in Moscow and majored in French. She speaks English very well, but wants to improve. One of the first things she told me was that she could not understand the way black people spoke. She said it was extremely confusing. She asked me, “Why do black people talk so strange?” Well, that’s a tough one. You see what I’m getting at. I told her it was a black dialect. She asked why they couldn’t speak proper English when they’d been here for so many years. I repeated it was a dialect and let it go.
    People I tutor from foreign countries are a little put off by “Black English”. They come here struggling to perfect their English in every way possible to encounter {I live in North Carolina by the way} African Americans speaking in what foreigners consider very uneducated English. Then, consequently, these same people don’t feel comfortable around black people. When they hear, “Nobody there.” or “She work every day” or “Ain’t nobody here” instead of Nobody’s under there and She works every day..they believe they are encountering people who are poorly educated..period. They don’t go through the “politically correct or incorrect” mode. They just avoid black people and make no apologies.
    Now I teach people from India also. Many of them have Very Dark skin coloring. From the back, without looking at facial features, you would take them for African Americans. I have NEVER seen any racism directed at these Indians. Why? Once again, they speak perfect English with an Indian accent. They value education, want their children to be educated..and they also avoid African Americans. Again..why? Becauuse of African American speech patterns,,for one very relevant reason.
    Now it’s been argued on this site that the black dialect should be respected and revered as a separate language, and that white Americans are being racist in looking down their nose at it. It’s been argued that American teachers aren’t sensitive enough to black children who enter classrooms speaking this black dialect. That they “insult” black children when they “correct” their black English. That they are “insulting” black culture when they correct their English..because black English is a part of black culture..which I completely understand..it is! However, the standardized tests one must take to enter colleges are Not written in black English. Insurance forms, doctor bills, a mortgage document etc are Not written in black English.
    There was a recent study done in Detroit that concluded many black high school Graduates were still “functionally illiterate” and could not indeed make sense of the aforementioned documents.
    http://newsone.com/?s=detroit+illiterat
    This was taken from News One, a black website. The point is black English harms many black students in more ways than one. It presents very awkwardly. It presents as a signal of lack of education. I am not suggesting black children simply let go of their culture. However, it would greatly benefit black parents of these children to try to learn standard English taught in the schools in Tandem with black English, so their children speak standard English in school and then not go home to “Where you been?” or “Somethin’ wrong”. Again, I mean this in No Way to offend anyone. It’s a fact, however that is very much harming black children’s chances for success in this country and very much attributes to racism. And no, I don’t see ANYBODY in America, any time soon, thinking black English is a legitimate, if you will, manner of speaking English. A dialect? Yes. But if this is the ONLY way you can communicate, yeah..you will be stigmatized in America and probably in many other countries also..because nobody will be able to understand you.
    Also, I don’t see doctor’s bills, insurance forms, mortgages, car payment bills etc being written in black English any time soon. In summation, what many label “racism” is lack of education coupled with the manner in which many African Americans speak.This is something the black community itself must address because the rest of the world will not change their perceptions of black English. I honestly don’t see that happening.

    • Nicthommi

      I’ve been asked by a few people, mostly foreigners, why I sounded one way but other black people sounded another.
      I honestly don’t have a good answer for that. All of my friends sound like me. My sister sounds just like me. My parents must have at SOME point had southern accents but they speak like I do too. I’ve noticed that a lot of older, educated black people, regardless of origin, speak regular, standard English. I mean, really, most of my parents friends would sound like Oprah, just to use an example of someone who had a similar childhood to them. It’s all that I EVER heard growing up, and we’re talking about people from the Deep South, Chicago, Detroit, etc.

      The other BIG difference is that none of has a “second” voice…this is it. No dialect is used besides standard English and maybe mainstream casual language (like contractions and what I call their lazy cousins that a lot of Americans use).

      I’m in my 30′s. I dislike that at some point, people started arguing that they don’t have to learn or use standard English. Or at least that’s what it feels like.

      We do ourselves no favors with this and many people wind up not even knowing how to speak standard English.

      I will say that forgetting color is something that you can only do when you are in a place or privilege. Despite all of the advantages in my life, and the fact that I’m well-integrated and well-received, when I’m just a black face in the crowd it’s important to remember that.

      But as I’d said before, when people hear you and feel that you share a common background, it does a lot to bridge divides with a lot of people.

      • Nicthommi

        But there are clearly those people for whom we will be stupid, ugly, or other, and those who doubt your credentials or doubt that you had the right to them too…
        I see a LOT of that on internet forums and comments.
        It’s funny that legacy doesn’t bother people but the first couple of generations of people who are benefitting from a bit of meritocracy raise ire in a LOT of people.

      • cordoba blue

        Nicthommi said: “I dislike that at some point, people started arguing that they don’t have to learn or use standard English. Or at least that’s what it feels like.”
        I agree that I’ve seen this happen also. And no, it does African Americans no favors whatsoever. It’s like being defensive about some very STANDARD expected behaviors..like going to job interviews well-groomed or presenting a resume with proper spelling, vocabulary, and punctuation. I’m not talking Princeton PHD material, but just a legible, properly written resume. If you can’t do this, why are you confused when you are denied employment?
        Some people will argue that if employers don’t accept them “just the way they are”..then they can take a hike. Well..the world just doesn’t function that way. The job market is tough all over the planet, and survival has always depended to some extent on being competitive and willing to sacrifice to get what you want. You can’t survive with a 1960′s hippie approach, “Love me or leave me.” It sounds emotionally appealing, but in reality, nobody with common sense really lives like that.
        Yes, you have to work your pa-toot off to make it anywhere. On NPR I was just listening to a program about the job market. It said that high school graduates need a high school diploma PLUS a few courses in a trade as well, if they have a prayer in the future job market. In other words, they must specialize in something..plumbing or carpentry or middle management over and above the high school certificate.
        They also said that the unskilled labor market was the hardest hit during this recession. This is a totally empirical and predictable outcome. If you’re not willing to fight for your future, you simply won’t have one.
        The commentator said even factory workers today need computer skills. It’s just not like it was 50 years ago. If you refuse, for whatever reason, to make yourself marketable..and speaking standard English is ESSENTIAL in this regard, you simply won’t survive.
        I think the suggestion from educators and employers asking African Americans to adopt standard English only gives them a distinct advantage. The world will never see Black English as sounding erudite..just like they’ll never see white slang as erudite. If you are combative on this point, you are wasting precious time and simply impeding the progress of black Americans. Whoever sees this as racism is greatly misguided, in my opinion.

  16. cordoba blue

    I just re-read my comment and I do need to add a qualifier. I did not mean to suggest that if black people spoke standarad
    English it would eliminate racism. If I came across as meaning that I apologize. This in Not True.
    What I do believe is that 50% {yeah..I know I’m sticking my neck out by saying that} of what is deemed racism would likely disappear if African Americans communicated, in public, using standard proper English. Black people who are educated face far less racist discrimination than poorly educated blacks. Can we agree on this?
    There are many, many truly narrow-minded white people who discriminate against all African Americans, educated or not. However, I know many white people who are very comfortable and happpy with black friends who are educated and speak standard English, but will definitely avoid poorly educated blacks who {incidentally} don’t share common values.
    Commonality of values is a key factor, again, in why people associate with other people..how they choose their friends.

    • John D. Foster

      “Black people who are educated face far less racist discrimination than poorly educated blacks. Can we agree on this?”
      –No we cannot. First, I don’t like your insinuation that Blacks who use AAVE (African American Vernacular English) in certain contexts are uneducted. Second, see books like Feagin and Sikes’ Living With Racism for examples how middle-class, well-educated Blacks experience extensive discrimination, often more than what poor and working-class Blacks experience, due to more interactions with white people. As for your claim that whites will hang “comfortably” with Blacks who share the same values, I also disagree on two levels: first, do Blacks of any social class reject the values that whites claim to embrace? For example, do they reject education? The meme of rejecting school for fear of being labeled “acting white” by their peers has been proven a myth by research. And second, look at books like American Apartheid and see how our communities are REsegregating; i.e., getting worse not better. As Blacks try to come closer to us whites, we continue to move away.

  17. cordoba blue

    @ John Foster:
    First you are qualifying what I said, and adding words I Did not say. I did not insinuate anything..I came right out and said Black Americans who use vernacular English “Here come James”..”Where the bus be at?” in Public are CONSTRUED as being poorly educated by people from other countries.. in particular new to America…and yes many Americans as well. Would you yourself write on this blog using the vernacular? I think that would answer alot about what we BOTH really know was my point. Why don’t YOU use a white vernacular here? Would people take you less seriously? Don’t want to use the vernacular in an academic setting? Don’t blame you.
    What if a white vernacular was the ONLY way you could communicate John? Could you live with that? Would you blame other people if they viewed you as less educated if they used standard English and you did not? Or would you “rage against the system” and say,” I all kin talk jist as good as you all. You best be changin’ yourn ideeaa bout me or else! It’s discrimmmmination..that’s it! High-falutin’ city folk gwine tell me how to talk. Doncha be doin’ that.” Beverly Hill Billies.
    Now why would anyone consider a person who spoke like that poorly educated? H-m-m-m..that’s a tough one. And it’s a huge assumption too. I mean the guy actually used a few words in the correct context. You yourself would consider this man, quite probably, poorly educated. Or would you not? Have you never made assumptions about people based on their use of the English language?
    The point is people who “defend” the black vernacular in all settings are forever harming young black students. White teachers correct ALL Ethnic groups who don’t use standard American English. If the SAT’s were written in a dialect {say in Black English} or insurance policies or mortgages, John, then the world would not be racist? Is this how we should answer the question of the black vernacular? Write all communication in this dialect? Would that solve the judgmental approach people have about language, that you find so repulsive? Please think about what you are implying educators should ACTUALLY DO regarding dialects.
    Plus, what’s the reason for re-segregation? It’s not just about disliking skin color. Many people from India have VERY DARK skin. White parents are afraid to send their children to inner city schools because of the high crime rate committed within these schools. A week ago, a 5 year old black boy brought a loaded gun to school. Just a coincidence? Actually no. Read the news and you will find many incidences of African American kids bringing weapons to school,,knives and guns.I have no idea why this is happening. However, I know many white parents who say it is fear for their child’s SAFETY, not racism, that is prompting them to pull their kids from the inner city schools.
    The point is there are things the black community can do to help themselves. This will not eliminate racism, but it would help enormously..both the person who makes the changes and how the world at large {yes..I’m talking about foreigners} sees African Americans.
    Maybe I sound pedantic..but I’m a teacher. My entire psyche is about helping kids make smart decisions..not encouraging destructive, doomed-to-fail choices because “it might be construed as racist..ok..I’ll just keep quiet and not say anything..that way I stay safe..politically correct, and let the chips fall where they may.” The opposite of concern and caring is indifference, not hate.
    Addressing problematic behavior within the black community does not make someone elistist. If it exists, then it should be addressed. Many African Americans who have achieved middle class status would never return to the self destructive habits of black people who remain in the, for example, housing projects. I still stand by my point that blacks who are better educated endure less racism than blacks who remain high school drop-outs. Plus, they are certainly providing a much healthier environment for their children. They would never return to the hazards of the inner city.

    • John D. Foster

      @cordoba blue: I really don’t want to continue on this track, so I’ll be brief. First of all, I said using AAVE in CERTAIN contexts should not be a problem, while it certainly should not make whites afraid when they hear Blacks use it. Of course code switching should (and usually does) occur in social contexts in which it is appropriate. So are you saying that in no situations is the AAVE okay to use? Second, I again say that you should look at some research on segregation and middle-class Blacks’ experiences with white racism. I know that plenty of white boys have taken weapons onto school grounds, including young white boys. Crime exists in white and/or suburban communities too. The “safety” and “good schools” excuses for moving into lily-white suburbs or pulling you kids out of public schools “too black” and putting them into private schools is often baseless and based on hearsay (e.g., what realtors will tell you to make a buck), and it’s destroying much if any progress we’ve made, at least in part.

  18. JamminCanadian

    Wow!!! I’ve read and scanned over some comments left here. You seem to be black women whallowing in self-pity and excuses as to why you are in the way you are. Yes, media has some image culpability, but the problem is your north american society’s culture in and of itself.

    I’m a Jamaican woman, and Jamaican men approach women all the time, in north america non-jamaican men prefer staring, getting a return stare then approaching if the woman doesn’t approach first. That’s the culture, men, especially white men, fear rejection so they don’t approach. In Canada, Jamaican men are only approached by white women, something they’re completely un-used to because it’s very aggressive (although women, mistakenly think it’s empowered and strong, it turns non-american men off- after the first ego thrill wears off).
    But this is how it is, here non-black men don’t approach women for fear of rejection so they hope to get reciprocated glances and smiles. If black women don’t respond in kind, they think black women aren’t attracted to them.

    All these philosophical depictions of how much of a victim black women are, is doing no one on here any good. It only amounts to complaining and whallowing in “woe is me” bawling. Ladies, it is unnatractive and non-beneficial. Move away from it.

    See yourselves as desireable, awesome and the value any man, regardless of race, would gain from being with you. See the value you want a husband to bring to you and seek such. Drop the complaining.

    • Blaque Swan, previously No1KState

      You seem to be black women whallowing in self-pity and excuses as to why you are in the way you are.

      I’m sorry, but I’m not sure what you mean by this.

      That said, in the US, men approach women. They may or may not wait for a return stare, regardless of the race of the man or the woman he’s attracted to. I can’t speak to Canada’s dating scene; but, your depiction is not accurate if applied to the US.

      Also, as far as I’m aware, only nicthommi and myself are black women.

      I have more thoughts, but I just wanted to clear up those issues first. Maybe you’ll have a different opinion of the comments considering those clarifications.

      • ThatOneGuy

        I am white man who has dated women of every ethnic group, and no Swan it wasn’t because I was on an “exotic adventure” or assuming they were “hyper-sexual”. In both cases they were black women I worked with who I knew and who had made it clear that they dated white men.

        That being said what I know is that the number of black women who will date a white man is small and to get to them I have to deal with black women like you. Who see me as “WHITE” before you see me as a man, who blame me personally for any negative thing that has ever happened to any black person. Your cousin is in prison for robing a Korean store owner-> my fault. Your sister’s baby’s daddy hasn’t sent her child support EVER-> my fault again he would if he wasn’t being held down by yours truly. Your Grandma died of a heart attack-> me again I was probably feeding her poison. Skipping over the fact that most of my family were Russian miners that came over after WWI but that is irrelevant to you. What is important is remembering that I am the root of all that is evil in the universe. In fact I am so powerful that according to you lesser creatures like non-white men have to be criminals they have no choice I-ME-THIS GUY RIGHT HERE forced them into it, that is how powerful I am.

        On the other hand if I date Carmen or Nhung or Yuko are they going to tell me that the current state of their brothers, cousins, and fathers is my fault? No for good or bad, and in turn I don’t blame Carmen for acts of the Catholic Church, I don’t tell Yuko that Japanese Imperialism caused much of WWII that devastated my ancestral homeland? No I don’t it wasn’t her and she had no part in it.

        So no it isn’t the racism of white men against black women that keeps men like me from approaching a black women. It is the hostility that so many black women, like you, have towards anyone with a white penis that does that.

        • Blaque Swan

          Sorry to be responding after so long. I was unaware of this comment. But since you called me out, I’ll respond.

          Let’s be clear. My preference for men of color has nothing to do with white America’s racism. It’s about the fact that I grew up around black men who used to be farmers and who all had calloused hands. So for me, that sort of sweat-iness is masculine. The first white men I remember meeting were my mom’s co-workers. (She was a teacher.) Maybe the owner of the bookstore my mom used to take me to. I think the teller who helped me and my brother open a savings account was a white guy. And I almost forgot – my doctor as a child, who, by the way, said I was putting to much pressure on myself to make straight As.

          So anyway, none of these men had calloused hands. So white men just never appealed to me as “masculine” until Brian Simon picked up Sanaa Lathan in the movie SOMETHING NEW. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had white male friends, but I wasn’t attracted to very many of them. Except for my first grade crush, who did like me too, by the way.

          My only qualification when it comes to race is that the man be an anti-racist. And as we’ve seen recently, being black doesn’t necessarily mean you’re an anti-racist.

          Of course, a Ghanaian accent won’t hurt, but that’s a different story involving a road trip and a prayer.

          Do I blame every white man I meet for all that stuff you mention? Of course not! That would be insane. I don’t have any cousin in prison for robbing a Korean store owner. And I don’t have a sister. So to blame any random white man for those troubles would be ridiculous.

          But make no mistake about it. Racism still destroys my ancestral homeland. Any white immigrants who came to the US prior to the 70s benefited from a society built upon the oppression of people of color. That’s not to say immigrants didn’t have their own struggles – overcrowded tenements, 6-day work weeks/12-hour work days/pennies an hour. I don’t deny all that. I don’t deny that white communists helped fight racism. I don’t deny that either. But let’s be perfectly clear. Any material success white immigrants had came at the expense of the oppression of people of color.

          However, none of that comes to mind when I meet a white man. I’ve found that I meet everyone with an open mind. I get to know them for who they are. I’ve found some white men to be fervently anti-racist. I’ve found others who are less so. Some may even acknowledge racism, but hide behind their imagined lack of control to deny personal responsibility for the things they can control.

          So, you’re absolutely wrong and every count.

          And some advice? Resist the temptation to equate hostility towards racism with hostility to anyone with a white penis. If for no other reason than not all racists have white penises.

        • Blaque Swan

          Okay! It’s been so long ago, I thought I had left that comment to thirtynine on another thread. But I left it here. That’s why you went on your “blaming me for everything” rant.

          Well okay. Then let be as clear as possible. Unless you knowingly lied about seeing someone’s cousin rob a Korean store owner, no woman is going to blame you for her cousin’s imprisonment. That would be ridiculous.

          At the same time, however, black women are human. And just like the store-owner in your hypothetical was Korean, and my imaginary sister had a child out-of-wedlock, you’re the white cop who declined to do anything about unabashed housing discrimination because the apartment owner is old and “just of that time.”

          If you’re not powerful enough to affect change within yourself – for example, in addition to the stereotypes you threw around, you seem to have a problem acknowledging the real and measurable impact racism has on black health – then why do I have to be powerful enough to see you as first a MAN before I see you as white? Why do I have to be more powerful than you?

          For the record, if you have big, strong, rough/calloused hands, I’ll see you as a man regardless of your race.

        • To ThatOneGuy who acts a whole lot like so many other white guys,

          As a white male, I find your comment woefully soaked and bloated with white male supremacist (sexist and racist) assumptions about how you should be treated relative to people without your (and my) race and gender privileges, position, advantages, and status in white male-dominated and ruled societies. I’ll delineate a bit of what I find troubling in what you wrote.

          Your apparent offence at being treated as “one of those WHITE dudes, just like all the others” (rather than as the not-so-sensitive white guy you appear to be here?), reveals you are generally and usually being seen and treated as an individual. I’d argue that this usual experience being only occasionally interrupted by exceptional, atypical experiences is the cause for you even registering this as a significant offence. Your offence rests on your socially protected right to be seen as only an individual, even while your race and gender privileges have little to do with your individuality.

          Let me speak to you for a moment as a gay person: I don’t experience that level of “being seen as only an individual” as a gay person. I am seen as someone who probably has too much sex (while I choose to have none, in fact), and as someone who exists to entertain white het people: evidenced in the terribly problematic hit series, Modern Family, just last night.

          Every woman of color I know doesn’t have the luxury of wallowing in offence of being treated as “not an individual”, for to do so would render anyone experiencing so much systematic, unceasing objectification and bigotry just plain exhausted. No Black woman I know assumes she’ll be treated as “just a person” or “only an individual” by any man or by anyone white. You and I–and people like us, with regard to race and gender–can see ourselves written into history as “important individuals who shaped the world”, while people of color across gender are seen as obstacles to white men getting all the freedoms we want. And our capacity to want things, people, land, and “resources” that don’t belong to us knows no bounds.

          Women across race are only seen by white het men as things to be sexually conquered, to take care of whites and men emotionally. Het men, meanwhile, carry the “manifest destiny” and “imminent domain” myths into the bedroom and bar room, dance club, and motel and hotel room.

          Your comments miss or ignore the reality that there are people out in the world–most people, in fact–who not hardly ever (or are never) socially regarded by our über-privileged, structurally advantaged people as “only individuals”. People who are not male and white are rarely-to-never presumed by us to be deserving of being seen as individuals, except on an exceptional basis. And when we regard someone–a woman of any color, or a man of color, as “an actual individual person” we expect to be patted on the back and rewarded for doing so.

          At the same time that we may oh-so-generously recognise a few people of color, a few women, as “just an individual”, we only ever regard white men as individuals–without exception, but privately or unconsciously know our relative status and wealth-acquisition (and ability to hoard wealth and resources) has nothing to do with individuality and everything to do with social custom and legal policy.

          We white guys carry around an absurdly apolitical, socially ignorant assumption that being white and male means nothing other than that “we’re [just] human”. We are human, of course, but so too are we carriers of white and male supremacist assumptions, attitudes, actions that do, in fact, oppress other people. Want to check out how much that’s the case, economically? See this website and take the test:

          http://slaveryfootprint.org/

          You and I support white and male supremacy in society in myriad ways. Please don’t respond with the ubiquitous and predictable “Dude, you don’t even KNOW me!” line. I’ve seen what you’ve written here and you’ve revealed far more about yourself than you perhaps wished.

          I’m from European immigrant stock too–I’m first generation on one side of my family, and both sides of my white, arrived-poor family benefited greatly from being taken into this society as “white”. My family wouldn’t have made it into the middle class in one generation if they weren’t received here as white. And whatever your class background is, it would be poorer if your parents or grandparents had come here being received socially and economically as not-white people.

          You state, “I am white man who has dated women of every ethnic group, and no Swan it wasn’t because I was on an ‘exotic adventure’ or assuming they were ‘hyper-sexual’”, as if we should applaud you or massage your feet, or get you something cool or warm to drink. Or as if to prove that white men don’t do *exactly that* most of the time. Your plea for exceptionalism is akin to the men who are offended when women on the street swiftly move to the other side when approached, as if “that man should be regarded as the only non-rapist of the bunch”. Where in the world does such a keen ability to discern danger among unknown men come in handy? It comes in handy only for men who rape women but want to be perceived as non-rapists. Meanwhile, most men do jack sh-t to end rape, or, even, to call out the men who speak misogynistically about women they know and don’t know.

          I found your wording here especially revealing of the privileges you carry as a white person and a man:

          “That being said what I know is that the number of black women who will date a white man is small and to get to them I have to deal with black women like you.”

          Yes, you are raised to think you have a right to “get to” anyone you want, for whatever reasons you want to have access to them. Denial of access by women offends men greatly, because our pro-rape society teaches all men to assume we can take what we want and any rejection is reason enough to insult her and further oppress all women by calling the rejecting woman the b-word, among other expletives; by beating her up, especially if she’s in a “romantic” relationship; and by murdering her, especially if she has the audacity to leave his sorry abusive ass.

          Let’s consider who has to endure more: you, Mr. White Man, who has to be allegedly insulted and offended by being seen as WHITE by a few people you have the choice to surround yourself with interpersonally and intimately. Or women of color, who, particularly in the US, have to endure unending non-human status by whites, by men, by media, by politicians, and by most people (“individuals”) who are more privileged. I know very few women of color who can afford to NOT be around whites or men. I know many white men who choose to be intimately involved only with other whites–and those who break out of that racist mold want plenty of kudos for being so open-minded. White men, socially and in workplaces, also choose to be predominantly with other men.

          You choose to engage women of color from a position of privilege and power that no woman of color structurally has, relative to you, in the US. And you conveniently forget *that* when you are offended. It’s surely your privilege to do so.

          You seem to expect or want or need to not have the past actions of your people, who have committed all manner of terroristic or “only insulting and degrading” atrocities against girls and women of color in the US and internationally. Why, exactly, should anyone give you that pass without knowing you? Do you distinguish yourself as exceptional by demonstrating a fiercely public and private commitment to anti-sexism and anti-racism work? (And, even then, anti-racism and anti-sexism activist men are notoriously and grievously racist and misogynistic.)

          If you don’t distinguish yourself in those ways, why ought anyone regard you as anti-racist and anti-sexist when you take it upon yourself to approach them? Why don’t you create around yourself a welcoming space and wait for women to approach you? Is it because your learned ways of being a man impel you to be the assertive initiator, socially?

          White men continue to commit these horrible acts–with few to no white men opposing it publicly. Most white men don’t interrupt the other white men or the throw wrenches in the white and male supremacist machinery that keeps pressing down on the lives of people who are neither male nor white; white men benefit greatly from this lack of white-brotherly interference.

          That’s one typically white male supremacist aspect of your comment here: you are quick to note what’s offencive to *you*, but are woefully silent on the matter of what white men do–including you, historically or presently–that warrants any individual woman of color being very (read: appropriately) leery of you and your intentions in approaching her.

          As you make a worse-than-weak case for being treated as just an individual, when you grossly reinforce racism and misogyny, rattling off your scenarios of your own alleged dehumanisation in their eyes:

          “Your cousin is in prison for robing a Korean store owner-> my fault. Your sister’s baby’s daddy hasn’t sent her child support EVER-> my fault again he would if he wasn’t being held down by yours truly. Your Grandma died of a heart attack-> me again I was probably feeding her poison.”

          Why should anyone reading what your wrote above want to make time to learn of your family’s background as Russian miners that came over after WWI? Why ought such details be relevant in the face of such glaring, unrecognised oppressive bigotry and obnoxiousness?

          You go on:

          “What is important is remembering that I am the root of all that is evil in the universe. In fact I am so powerful that according to you lesser creatures like non-white men have to be criminals they have no choice I-ME-THIS GUY RIGHT HERE forced them into it, that is how powerful I am.”

          Again with your demands to be seen as exceptional. In the US and in many other countries, structurally and institutionally–and also often enough interpersonally and intimately, white men do oppress women of all colors.

          You, who don’t have post-traumatic stress due to how you are mistreated daily by whites and men, get to preach from a truly arrogant and self-centered position:

          “On the other hand if I date Carmen or Nhung or Yuko are they going to tell me that the current state of their brothers, cousins, and fathers is my fault? No for good or bad, and in turn I don’t blame Carmen for acts of the Catholic Church, I don’t tell Yuko that Japanese Imperialism caused much of WWII that devastated my ancestral homeland? No I don’t it wasn’t her and she had no part in it.”

          But European men are implicated, quite directly, in the past and in the present, with most militarised and otherwise violent conflicts around the world, either by instilling in those places our economic systems, weaponry, or by subverting and destroying their cultures with religion or cultural practices and values. To read about how this has been done historically, please read Yurugu: An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior by Dr. Marimba Ani.

          There’s a damn good reason why some African-descended and Indigenous people in the Americas refer to “The White Man” in such terms. There’s little reason to distinguish among us, if The White Man is stealing or invading and militarily occupying your ancestral land while also attempting and, by the millions, effectively destroying the people who are not white.

          You go on:

          “So no it isn’t the racism of white men against black women that keeps men like me from approaching a black women. It is the hostility that so many black women, like you, have towards anyone with a white penis that does that.”

          As noted elsewhere in this discussion, you are quick to name reasoned, appropriate criticism or analysis as “hostility” without recognising or being responsible for the gross hostility in your own words here. How typically white and male of you, ThatOneGuy who is not so very different from all the others.

          • cordoba blue

            And now that we’re on the subject of rape, we know the plantation owners and Jim Crow white guys made it a habit to rape black females. And who now takes up the gauntlet? Why black males of course. You’d think these poor black ladies would get a break. Where the white men left off, black males in America are all too ready to physically assault or rape black women.
            The U.S. Department of Justice compiles statistics on crime by race, but only between and among people categorized as black or white. The Uniform Crime Reports classifies most Hispanics into the “white” category.[76] There were 194,270 white and 17,920 black victims of rape or sexual assault reported in 2006. According to Anthony Walsh, “Gary LaFree’s rape data for the 45-year period revealed that BLACKS WERE ARRESTED FOR RAPE an average of 6.52 times more often than whites.”[76]

            Drug use, especially alcohol, is frequently involved in rape. A study (only of rape victims that were female and reachable by phone) reported detailed findings related to tactics. In 47% of such rapes, both the victim and the perpetrator had been drinking. In 17%, only the perpetrator had been. 7% of the time, only the victim had been drinking. Rapes where neither the victim nor the perpetrator had been drinking were 29% of all rapes.[9] Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone’s home. 31% occur in the perpetrators’ homes, 27% in the victims’ homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars.[9] From 2000–2005, 59% of rapes were not reported to law enforcement.[10][77] One factor relating to this is misconception that most rapes are committed by strangers.[11][10] In reality, studies indicate the following varying numbers:

            Source: Current or Former Intimate Partner/ Another Relative Friend or Acquaintance
            US Bureau of Justice Statistics 26% and 38%
            respectively.
            Could somebody please give poor black women a break? Just when Jim Crow is barely over, black men themselves start taking advantage of black women. Not only are African Americans the largest minority group that has single family households run by unmarried women with children, black men are statistically getting black women pregnant and then leaving them out to struggle alone in record numbers. This is a growing problem within the African American community that many studies will reinforce. So who’s a black woman to trust? Maybe gays like you are their only hope Julian.

    • ThatOneGuy

      I agree Jammin. When I see an attractive black women I try to make eye contact if she smiles I approach. If she avoids eye contact or gives me the “what the F’ are you looking at” then I don’t. Simple as that. With white women, asians, or latinas I just walk up to them because the worst that happens is they say NO. I tried that with black women when I was younger and got a couple of long lectures about why I am a terrible person due to my race and gender so I wont approach a black woman without eye contact/smile or “friend of a friend” character reference.

    • Holly703

      I agree jammin, I wish we focused on our positive aspects rather than the negative. Who cares if white american men don’t date black women, there’s to many other races in the world to consider that to just focus on white American men.

  19. criticalthinker

    I believe this entire thread is overlooking a much simpler factor: biological studies on physical attractiveness.

    There is plenty of biological evidence to support the notion that men biologically programmed to seek a mate who is physically attracive, much more so than women.

    Likewise, the literature of studies on sexual attraction indicates that women are biologically programmed to seek a mate who is powerful, much more so than men.

    There are always exceptions, but this is overwhelmingly the case in evolutionary biology. Combine this with the results of other studies, which indicate that humans are prone to seek out sexual partners who look similar to themselves if physical attraction is the motivating factor.

    Now once you connect all of this information, wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that white men are less likely to seek out black women? And white women more likely to seek out black men?

    There you go: a perfectly valid explanation without racism as a motivating factor.

    • Blaque Swan

      Now once you connect all of this information, wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that white men are less likely to seek out black women? And white women more likely to seek out black men?

      Uh . . . no.

      First off, white men are tons more powerful than black men in American society.

      The fact that people seek out sexual partners who look similar to themselves helps explain intra-racial relationships, yes.

      But isn’t it also the case that humans see out partners who demonstrate fertility? And men especially seek out partners who can bear children, partners with wide hips, big breasts, etc and so on. All things characteristic of black women.

      So to answer your question, no.

      Your explanation is incomplete.

      • criticalthinker

        I’ll address each paragraph you wrote individually.

        1. White men are more powerful in American society, and that’s not the point at all. The point is that women seek power over looks in a mate. And it’s not just societal power. It could be as simple as physical strength or charm.

        2. You missed the point again. Men are more concerned with looks, so they are more likely to seek mates of a similar ethnicity than women are.

        3. Yes, men are attracted to fertility. But they can satisfy that need within their own ethnicity.

        4. Every answer is incomplete. The point is that humans tend to be physically attracted to those who look similar to them. And women don’t care as much about physical attraction as men do. Therefore, it matters less to them what the ethnicity of a mate is.

        My main focus is to provide alternative reasons for why white men tend not to date black women. The idea that hostility is reason is absurd and further fuels the fires of racism.

        • Blaque Swan

          Yeah, you’re right. There’s absolutely no proof of white men’s hostility to black women.

          Now, explain to me again why white women are more likely to seek out black men?

          Yeah, I’m being sarcastic. Do you really think none of those explanations have been considered?

          • Nicthommi

            Is this guy for real? I’m wondering if you are reading his comments the same way that I am reading them.

          • criticalthinker

            I’m only trying to provide an alternative explanation as to why white men have a tendency not to date black women. The idea that it is because of hostility is a racist idea. If you don’t understand that, then you never will and I cannot continue this conversation.

  20. cordoba blue

    Quite frankly, I don’t know why this particular thread has gone on this long. This site is supposed to address systemic and institutionalized racism. This translates into job opportunities for African Americans, educational opportunities, lack of housing discrimination, as much ability to acquire loans as a white person, fair treatment in our court systems. Not who is attracted to whom and why.
    What difference does it make why a white/black person is or is not attracted to another white/black person. Or if they want to date, have “personal relations”, or get married. Is this something we can ever analyze? Who knows why one human being falls in love with another?
    This is one of those mysteries I’m afraid can never be successfully analyzed. Some men like big breasts, some men find smaller breasts more appealing, whether on a white or a black women. Some men like bigger behinds, some men find smaller behinds cuter.Some men like the blond look. Some men think black women would be exciting to date, precisely because they’re tired of the blond look.
    Some women like tall men with big muscles, some women prefer slimmer men and don’t care about height. Some white women find black men “exotic”, some white women do not find black men appealing for whatever reason.Maybe they don’t think black men (in their minds) are as sexually attractive as white men. Maybe they like the blond, blue-eyed look or the white but dark olive-skinned look. WHATEVER! People don’t have to sleep with other races to prove they’re not a racist.
    What does this have to do with job discrimination, housing, education? Should we REALLY waste time trying to climb into every person’s very SUBJECTIVE ideas of what appeals to them?
    Again, that’s like asking, “Why do you love this person? No..I want details. Exactly why? That’s not enough..I want more details. That doesn’t make sense to me. I want further analysis.” Enough!

    • JazzJones

      I completely agree, cordoba blue.

      Simply put: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But that “eye” is what is being discussed in this particular forum. Exactly what is the difference between white and black “eyes?”

      Most white eyes see that “white” represents power, beauty, prestige, chivalry, etc. Most black eyes see that “black” represents humanoids with no self control, welfare dependence, stupidity, and blatant hatred of white people.

      I personally think that the reason white men aren’t as attracted to black women is because they also represent strength. “Strong black women.” Just that statement is intimidating. No man wants to feel intimidated by his partner, let alone a man of a race that is known for its power to dominate. There can be only one captain and one first mate.

      White woman are generally characterized, not as docile creatures, but as supportive women who cater to their provider’s needs. Asians, Indians, and some Latinas are viewed in the same way. Black women are viewed as nagging, domineering women who emasculate their partners. The truth couldn’t be farther from this. The high rate of divorce in ANY race proves these statements are completely false.

      Theoretically, if all white, asian, and latina women were supportive and all black women domineering, marriages to the lighter races wouldn’t end in divorce. Conversely, if all white men were powerful, successful people who take care of the needs of their partner in every way and all black men criminals making babies they don’t provide for, marriages to white men wouldn’t fail either.

      The fact is that assumptions kill ANY relationship. A deeper look might reveal something very surprising. For the white men looking to date black women, look at whether or not the black woman has the same life goals/ambitions/desires. If she does, she’s a good match, but if not, it makes sense to find someone aiming for the same basket, regardless of skin color.

      For the black women looking to date white men, look at whether or not you would be able to support the goals he wants to reach and whether or not they conflict with your own. Now, obviously if his goal is to be the Grand Dragon of the KKK, there’s a bit of a disconnect :) but seriously, if he wants to become a VP, make sure you attend that gala or benefit wearing that designer dress, shining on your man’s arm like a Rolex.

      It all has to do with what eyes you use to observe the world.

  21. cordoba blue

    To all black ladies out there: BE SMART. Don’t give two damns whether white cracker guy wants to date you or not. Think about one thing: Money! If all things are equal and you aren’t getting the same pay a white man or women gets in the same job, then get angry.File a law suit..whatever you have to do. Because this will pervade every aspect of your life: where you live, your ability to support your family, the quality of food you eat, the quality of medical care you receive, the reliability of the vehicle you drive..everything!
    If I were a black woman and I were denied a loan at a bank, would it make me any happier if the loan officer white guy asked me for a date? No! I’d tell him, “Give me a loan cracker, and as far as your sexual preferences go, I don’t care if you’re attracted to two-headed kangaroos! I came in for a loan and that’s the ONLY damn thing I care about.”

    • Nicthommi

      @Cordoba,
      How black women are viewed by white men does matter for reasons that are more important than them wanting to date us. Don’t insult anyone by posing such a facile argument?

      And for the record, white men have never had problems having sex with black women. For some reason, a lot of them want to sex all over black women on the side or in private. But publicly, they say these kinds of things.
      Black women are pretty rightly suspicious of white men because historically they have taken what they wanted but given marriage and stability to white women. So no one is running around crying b/c some redneck doesn’t want to date her.

      But what DOES in fact happen is that someone who thinks that you are a masculine, angry, neck-rolling ghetto baby might be your boss, or your co-worker. He might be the person who has to approve your home or business loan. And that’s when all of his negative ideas about black women, which are so much more than the superficial scenarios that you confine them to, matters. I went to Harvard, and a lot of my friends stayed and went to Harvard Law. I’ll ask them if they think that anyone could prove a systemic discrimination lawsuit based on the fact that some white men secretly loathe us?

      If a man is going to consciously or subconsciously give raises, promotions, etc. to women that he finds attractive, then it does matter. I can’t very well sue and say, oh, I got passed over for the promotion or my ideas get shot down in a meeting because these white men see me as a Sapphire or a Mammy, or maybe just a gorilla in a skirt.

      If I’m in need or getting attacked, it is important that my femininity and womanhood are valued as much as yours. Your privilege is showing so much with this last comment that it isn’t funny.

      Do you really think that everyone who doesn’t advance in life is lazy or doesn’t work hard enough?

      I’m sorry that you cannot see how white men’s hostility to black women has the ability to permeate our lives in so many ways. I could care less if I get to sleep with a any white men. I’m not going to get treated well by anyone who sees me as less than human, and less than fully female. B/c the default is not that I will get treated like a man and be assumed to be supremely qualified and an equal either.

      It’s been well-documented that being attractive does sometimes make life easier, especially for women. It should not be the case that if I’m a black 10 than I’m automatically a 5 and get treated badly because of it. Because I’m definitely uglier than every white woman that walks the earth. And it’s also pretty obvious that the images that everyone is bombarded with also impacts what people find attractive. Children of color will pick white dolls over black ones. They will identify pictures of other black children as being the ugly, dumb, or bad one. And yes, it even impacts the way that black men view black women and how some of them pick white women as a sign that they have arrived.

      And it’s pretty clear that to some people, no matter how attractive a black woman is, a lot of people, including black people, have been programmed to see nothing but a big mass of ugly no matter how we actually LOOK. I get so tired of people associating the ugliest descriptions of black women when no two of us look alike or have the same facial features, color or hair. I hear things like, oh, but you all have this kind of hair, and these kinds of noses. And funnily enough, when those features show up on other women, they are deemed attractive. Our individuality is stripped away. I’m personally convinced that a lot of white people see nothing but a Mammy perhaps even when looking at exceptionally beautiful black women.

      I’m kind of tired of white people who want to tell us that our problems don’t matter, or even worse, want to tell us what we should be working on and when. How is it your place to do that exactly? This effects my life. Not yours. It will never affect your life. So don’t tell me whether or not I can talk about it. All of these problems are cumulative and there can be no partial solutions, because they ALL bleed into one another. Goodness, I just re-watched a video where a white male cop punched a black female teenager in the face like she was a man. Was she being a bit unruly? Yes. But to punch a high school student (no, not some gangbanger or delinquent either) Do I think a white cop would punch a white female teenager in the face? Hell no. Would a black cop be allowed to punch a white female teenager in the face? Hell no. And this does link back to views of femininity and womanhood and who in this society is allowed to have it and who is not. How often are white women allowed to be abused that way in this society? If we posted an article on that story, a whole bunch of mostly white people would show up to “explain” why it’s okay to punch a black girl in the face when she “gets out of line.”

      How often do they have to read articles that insist that they are the ugliest things to ever walk on two legs? How often would they visit a blog where people try to couch that as a logical conclusion to what we have been talking about here? This last commenter, who I have no desire to engage, decided to show up and derail this discussion by not so subtely pointing out that white men don’t like black women because they are ugly, but that black men like white women because they are pretty. White women are the epitome of pretty and femininity so everyone wants them. And you just co-signed on his efforts to shut down the discussion and derail the thread. What is your purpose here? Because he sounded like a disciple of the man who wrote the article “explaining” why black women are so darn ugly?

  22. Nicthommi

    Here’s a great anecdote, not my own about the impact that white men’s hostility and failure to see us as human women can have. A Gen Y black woman was recalling a situation in middle school where students had to bring books up from the basement to the 3rd floor. The teacher gave all of the boys 5 books and all of the girls 3 books. Except for the lone black girl in the class, who was in fact quite petite.
    Someone asked her what she thought at the time. She said that it didn’t phase her because she already knew that that teacher could not stand her. I’m impressed by how it wasn’t damaging to her. But the point is, do you think that petite white girls have to deal with hostility from grown white men? Should they just get over it or sue? And not everyone is so strong as to withstand this kind of treatment EVERY SINGLE DAY. Children shouldn’t have to but even as a grown woman, it gets really darn tiring…almost as tiring as told that I need to just get over it and worry about the things are REALLY impacting “my people.”

    • cordoba blue

      “Here’s a great anecdote, not my own about the impact that white men’s hostility and failure to see us as human women can have.”
      To further illustrate MY point. I totally AGREE about the hostility. It’s wrong, inhumane and damaging. However, seeing someone as human and valuable is NOT the same as being sexually attracted to them or dating them. My reasoning is that attraction and dating are not a prerequisite to being against racism or not practicing racism. My thoughts were why the discussion was veering toward a “why don’t white men date/marry black women as much as white women?” Should this be this target of the discussion or should it be “Why do white men view or treat black women with less respect/dignity/kindness than white women?”
      Again, you can be a white man and date nobody but tall blond women and still treat black women with respect and in a just manner. The POINT is NOT who the man is sexually attracted to, but that he VIEWS black women as human beings worthy of every bit of kindness and courtesy he may elict toward every white person.
      I think statements such as, “Black women have big hips, which are indicative of fertility, and therefore should biologically attract ALL men to black women”. I’m paraphrasing, but you get the idea. Or, “Why do white men get turned on by Halle Barry but not Vanessa Williams?” That’s stressing a great deal about what some red-neck white guy thinks..and I personally don’t think it’s worhty of any black woman’s time. Whereas, if a black woman isn’t treated with respect and equal pay in the work place,my point was, isn’t this what’s of import rather than who she turns on?
      In summary, hostility is not the same as not being sexually attracted.

      • Nicthommi

        @Cordoba,
        I don’t know why you keep acting like the people who think and feel this way are “red-necks.” They are not. A lot of supposedly liberal white men feel this way, and I’d categorize the way that they said it as quite hostile.
        I find it extremely irritating that white people think that the only hostile white people are the ones burning crosses. In my experience, a lot of self-proclaimed liberals are quite racist for a myriad of reasons that I’ve already outlined, and I’ve explained why it does matter to me.
        And you are still doing the same thing by trying to tell us what we should be talking about and how, and also by trying to “define” what racism really is and what we should or should not be discussing.
        If you insist that we are just weeping because some rednecks think that we are ugly then there is really no point in trying to explain it to you.

  23. cordoba blue

    Hi Nicthommi,
    You made many logical points. As a white woman, you’re right, I should not suggest to you what to discuss as it relates to racism. You’re black and I’m white, so that makes all the difference.
    Secondly, the guy who “shut down the discussion” or tried to, wrote after my comment. I don’t know if that makes a difference. Anyway, you made alot of points. But my point was that black women should take pride in themselves and not care how white men view them. I don’t think, specifically, having a discussion about why white men don’t date/marry/are attracted to black women especially aids in addressing systemic racism as it relates to housing, jobs, education etc.
    However, as you pointed out, in the work place, for example, I may be wrong. If this attitude translates in the work environment as in, “I’m going to promote the cute blond over the black woman because consciously or subconsciously I’m more attracted to her” I can see your logic.
    But this does present a problem which may or may not be fixable. How can you REGULATE attraction? Seriously. Do you really think it’s all about the white racial frame or just a visceral reaction as in, “That woman turns me on because she looks like Scarlett Johansen” and “That woman reminds me of my mother..so I’m not attracted to her.” It’s SUCH a fine line. You can’t make someone see another human being as attractive. Just like you can’t make someone fall in love. They will or they won’t. The whole world of dating is subjective territory. Having negative images of black women is definitely wrong.
    But, in my opinion, you don’t have to date black women to, once again, prove that you’re not a racist. Just because any individual is not sexually attracted to any individual of another race does not automatically translate into racism, unless this permeates into OTHER AREAS, as you mentioned.
    What you can do is demand equal treatment based on your human rights in the various aforementioned areas. That’s the best way I can explain my argument. I just don’t think tackling racism from a dating/attraction/sexuality stance is entirely useful or even attainable.

    • Nicthommi

      We should “take pride in ourselves?” Again, that is so ridiculously condescending, patronizing and racist. You still seem to think that you need to “instruct” us on how to live? What do you think you need to teach the black women here that we don’t already know?
      The black women for whom self-esteem might be an issue again are not weeping for and chasing after white men.
      Not dating a black woman does not make you racist. But saying that you don’t because they are ugly, masculine, ghetto, stupid is quite racist.
      And a white woman trying to explain what racism really is to black women is more racist still.

    • Nicthommi

      Oh, and no one ever equated not dating black women with racism. As I pointed out, it is a fallacy that the two things are mutually exclusive. White men have always enjoyed spending time in black women’s panties, yet those same white men had no problem owning black women (Thomas Jefferson) or repeatedly voting down Civil Rights (Strom Thurmond). So no one believes that.
      Also, a lot of men who date women of color and especially the ones who date ONLY women of color, do so for reasons that are actually racist. Anyone who fetishizes your skin color or your sexual prowess or the way that you treat your men is also racist. No one would deny that there are a lot of white men who love to date Asian women, and the comments that they make to support that are also racist and fetishizing (they are subservient, submissive, know how to take care of their men, are not superficial or materialistic, etc). Do you think that I’m actually pleased when a white man tells me that he likes my chocolate skin, or my hair, or that black women are sassy, can dance, etc? Again, those are compliments but they still make me want to hurl.
      So here are examples where white men actually promote the idea that this group of non-white women is quite beautiful, yet the manner in which they do it is troublesome and racist.
      And none of this impacts your place of privilege one bit so I’m not sure why you keep insisting that we should not discuss it or try to dissuade us with your patronizing pep talk.

      • cordoba blue

        “Also, a lot of men who date women of color and especially the ones who date ONLY women of color, do so for reasons that are actually racist.”
        I think THAT’s actually condescending to black women. Like, the only reason they date black women is for racist reasons? How do you know that? Maybe they’re in love with her, find her company scintillating, her conversation enjoyable, her intelligence stimulating. You can’t speak for all white men, just like I can’t speak for all black women. You don’t think black women can offer these attributes to a man? I know you don’t believe that, however it sound like you’re saying that.
        I already said I don’t have a right to suggest what you should discuss. But I stand by my point that hostility toward black women does not equate with not dating them. You claim you believe this. Then turn around and claim that dating them is USUALLY for racist reasons also. So I guess white men should just avoid black women altogether. Because they’re condemned if they date black women and condemned if they don’t.
        Calling black women loud, masculine, ugly, ghetto is extremely racist. But some men call black women sexy, exotic, beautiful and think dark skin in attractive. Those are compliments but they still “make you angry” because it’s insulting..in a racist way?
        I have respect for your intellect, but I think you are closing all doors and just saying, “White man, leave us ALONE!” Which is fine and actually what I suggested in the first place. Why should you care what a white man in a suit or in work jeans thinks? Obviously you don’t give two damns. That’s a good thing. And if you think my comments are patronizing, I happen to be very strong on supporting women’s independence and rights.
        Also, the manner in which white men compliment black women is troublesome and racist, you said. How would you suggest they compliment black women EXACTLY? I’m married, but when I was single, men told me my curly hair, soft skin, big brown eyes turned them on. Now we could actually just replace those compliments and pretend the guy was talking to a black woman. Men tend to compliment via physcial features alot. Anyway, if a man said that to a black woman, say, would he be complimenting in a “troublesome and racist” manner or a respectful manner? I’m just curious about your take on this.
        Again, how should a white man specifically compliment a black woman so it doesn’t come across as racist?

    • JazzJones

      Um…wow…

      If it’s not useful to you, feel free to ignore it.

      Since it doesn’t apply to you then, kindly, please…shut the h*ll up with your condescending rant/instructions of how to improve the black experience of which you know nothing of.

      Exit, stage right.

      • cordoba blue

        I may not be black, but I’m still a woman,which definitely puts me on the playing field of how men treat women. They can be condescending to women in general. I should know. And they could be dating white women who are Domineering As Hell! Now that I know something about!
        You don’t think plenty of White Women wear the pants in white households? Many white women make MORE MONEY than their male partners. Many white women lay down the law in the household. My daughter treats her husband like Cleopatra ordering around the court clown! And I have black friends who’ve tried very hard to be strong while trying to raise black children with absentee fathers. It’s a bit**. They may appear to be strong on the outside, but inside they’re crying their heart out. Wouldn’t anybody?
        So much of these “I think white men are afraid of black women’s strength” and “I think white men marry white women because they KNOW they’ll be supportive” is at best speculation and at worst generalizing from a few examples.
        I maintain, once again, that attraction at the end of the day is based on an individual basis. I know black women married to white men who are very self-assured, make a very decent living, smart, and well-educated, and their husbands are proud of them, not intimidated. All depends on the guy.
        I also know black men who are married to white women who are ALSO strong and self-assured. Black women are not the only strong women on this planet. Example: Hillary Clinton. I’m sure she kicks the sh** out of Bill on a regular basis. And she was put in that position by a black man..namely President Obama. Sarah Palin another one. I don’t like her policies by the way..but meek? Say what? She’s got the biggest mouth in the western hemisphere. You can speak for black women more accurately than I can, being white. But you can’t speak for white women more accuarely cause I’m one of ‘em and I oughta know.

        • JazzJones

          Above I was speaking about characterization, not actuality. I said that IF (again IF) all white women were meek and supportive their marriages wouldn’t end and IF (again IF) all black women were domineering their marriages would fail.

          We have all heard that perception is reality and in the case of attraction, it’s no different. What a person perceives suddenly becomes the truth. Our perception as Americans is altered by the inundation of white being beautiful and black being sub-human and less attractive.

          I was attacking your condescending message about this forum’s usefulness and relevance. If it doesn’t help you, go elsewhere and complain. There are many of us that need a place to voice our concerns about issues that affect us. You just simply have no right to censor what we say, white or black.

          Seeing as how you’re STILL here and STILL posting, obviously this forum is useful, now isn’t it?

          Your “BE SMART, don’t care if white cracker guy likes you” mentality was enough to make me tell you to mind your own “white woman” business. The last thing that smart, educated black women want to be told is stupidly blind pep talks to focus on money and not on hostility.

          As was mentioned above by others, if your boss, loan officer, police officer, etc has a bad perception of black women it pervasively affects EVERYTHING following that white male hostility, whether it’s a promotion you should have gotten, a loan you were qualified to get, or a speeding ticket you didn’t deserve. That is PERVASIVE, affecting money, status, pride, rights, etc…I mean, shall I go for u to get the point? So what the crap would focusing on money do to improve that? Nada!

          I NEVER said that ALL white woman are/are not domineering. It’s amazing to me that you think that black woman are only strong because they are raising kids without the father while working a job or two to “make ends meet.” That’s laughable! I run an entire division for a Fortune 500 company and make in the high 6 figures with no kids or baby daddy to worry about. And I am a strong black woman, just like the strong white woman you listed above.
          I don’t know which of those woman (black baby mama or the Secretary of State) you expected me to be more like, but career and money wise, I relate more closely to Hilary Clinton. Now, relationship and men wise, I relate better with the working baby mama to which many white men show hostility.

          That was EXACTLY my point: PERCEPTIONS WHICH BECOME REALITY TO LESSER MINDS. Argue all you want, but attraction is based off perception, what we imagine being with that person would be like.

          The whole point of this forum was to discuss the hostility white men show to black women. As a black woman, I can understand this hostility and ACCURATELY speak to my EXPERIENCES. YOU CANNOT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A BLACK WOMAN FACING HOSTILITY FROM WHITE MEN, either on the surface or through subtle actions and displays.

          When you go through that experience, jump on this forum and give your opinion about it as much as you would like. But since you and I both know that can never happen, the least you can do is not complain about the method we use to discuss a matter that concerns us. And the most you can do is not to give pep talks that are offensive to educated, confident, and intelligent black women that decide for themselves what mentality they will or will not display and what ethnicity that will or will not date.

          So in your words, “Enough!”

    • natashamonroe

      You can have all the pride and self satisfaction in the world but fact is sadly it won’t help ur situation mental emotionally like u think it will. It would only be neglecting yourself even denial. This living in unreality will drive you crazy or crazier. Literally. It also won’t fix mistreatment. It may make black women “look better” because we are not “complaining”. That’s not good enough

      • cordoba blue

        @natasha I agree. Merely being bitter and angry and extolling the virtues of blacks while condemning whites is “not good enough”. Everytime I say this I get my butt kicked around here.
        It’s really ironic, because on the one hand many African Americans claim they need the liberal white left to empathize with them, vote for tax generated social programs to help them, stop being “classist” and know what it’s like to be poor, in other words empathize and FEEL their situation.
        Then when whites do this, many blacks claim, “Thanks Cracker! But you should have done this a long time ago. What took you so long you classist, white supremacist, racist trash?”
        It’s not about white-as-victim. What do whites have to gripe about? Nothin’. It’s about mending past hurts and starting anew. It’s about recognizing compassion and not taking your bitterness out on everybody on the planet who’s white. That’s a great deal of bitterness and could well “drive you crazy” as you stated. Regarding hate: “Half the people you hate don’t know it, and the other half don’t care.”

  24. Blaque Swan

    @ nicthommi – I’m pretty sure I did. But it’s my habit to issue warnings before the final killshot.

    @ criticalthinker – So do you really think we haven’t considered other options? Did you read the post?

    Just to be clear, by “hostility,” I doubt Brittany means anything on the lines of hatred, anger, etc and so on. What’s meant by “hostility” is something more like subconscious and inexplicable distaste that eventually manifests itself in a hateful and angry manner. It’s like the difference between being stabbed with a knife and stepping on a rusty nail. Yes, the knife is more violent and messy, visible. However, they both can be fatal.

    You probably think we think white men’s hostility explains 100% of the problem. We don’t. By the same token, none of your explanations can fully account for what we see in the dating world. Especially in a racialized society. And mind you, we’re not describing disparate collections of anecdotes; Brittany was describing the findings and data of her research.

  25. Blaque Swan

    I only just found this info like, 10 minutes ago, though I’ve been looking for it off and on for several months now. (Finding the divorce rate in the US by race isn’t as easy as I had expected.) So, I’ll still need to read this article: “But Will It Last?” — Marital Instability Among Interracial and Same-Race Couples(pdf). But the abstract explains:

    The literature on interracial families has examined social stigmas attached to interracial relationships but has not thoroughly documented whether crossing racial boundaries increases the risk of divorce. Using the 2002 National Survey of Family Growth (Cycle VI), we compare the likelihood of divorce for interracial couples to that of same-race couples. Comparisons across marriage cohorts reveal that, overall, interracial couples have higher rates of divorce, particularly for those marrying during the late-1980s. We also find race and gender variation. Compared to White/White couples, White female/Black male, and White female/Asian male marriages were more prone to divorce; meanwhile, those involving non-White females and White males and Hispanics and non-Hispanic persons had similar or lower risks of divorce.</blockquote)

    Are as summaries here and here explain:

    - Marriages that do not cross a race barrier, but do have different ethnicities (i.e. white/Hispanic white) have a rate of divorce just a little higher than white/white marriages.
    - Interracial marriages that have one white person and one person of another race mostly only show higher divorce rates when the white spouse is a female (i.e. white guy + other race girl don’t show particularly high divorce rates compared to same-race couples).
    - Black husband/white wife marriages are twice as likely to divorce as white/white marriages, and Asian husband/white wife marriages are about 60% more likely to divorce as white/white marriages. Which, I suppose is an unfortunate statistic for Aditya and me (and one I didn’t expect at all)!
    - White husband/black wife were nearly 50% less likely to divorce than white/white couples, and white husband/Asian wife couples had pretty much the same divorce rate as white/white couples
    - Compared to Hispanic/Hispanic couples, Hispanic white/white couples showed a higher likelihood of divorce (not surprising). Likewise, Asian/white couples were more likely to divorce than Asian/Asian couples. However, black/white couples only show a higher rate of divorce compared to black/black couples if the white person in the relationship is a woman.
    - The researchers were unable to evaluate other sorts of interracial marriages, such as black/Asian, because of the low number of such couples in the sample data.

    Maybe I shouldn’t have been, but considering the common mainstream narrative of black women not making the most supportive of spouses, I was stunned to find this out.

    • Blaque Swan

      By the by admin, may I suggest a “preview” option on comments? (It’s hard to be sure how html will come out unless you’ve seen it at least once.)

  26. cordoba blue

    “However, black/white couples only show a higher rate of divorce compared to black/black couples if the white person in the relationship is a woman.”
    I’m not surprised at this at all. When white men make a commitment to a black woman, it’s because they’re IN LOVE. So if they marry, why wouldn’t they stay?
    Furthermore, black women are women first and African Americans second, just like the rest of us non-black ladies. It’s myth that black women are tough or non-supportive or stronger than white women or more volatile than white women. They just have to be tough sometimes if the circumstances merit it. Don’t we all?

  27. NimWhatever

    Well, I do have this to say about this post. As far as the chosen comments to display, I see comments from upper middle aged white men. It is obvious that most of them have this view of black women, however, people in my age group, 16-24, have different views on this. When I was in high school, a lot of interracial dating was going on, particularly and most commonly black/white, and I live in the South. Out of this, yes, most of them were black men and white women, but there was also a healthy mixture of black women with white men. As me and my friends grew older (most of us are in our early twenties) not one of my friends, or even acquaintances had negative views of interracial marriage or dating, in fact, my numerous friends were very happy for me (African american woman) and my husband (Caucasian man) getting married and having our first baby girl. Even those coming from viciously racist families were not like their parents. Not only that, but our race never came under scrutiny from anyone other than my husbands stepfather (who if you could meet, is a moron, not because of anything but the fact that he truly is) who simply said that he felt as though us different ethnicities would strain our marriage. But…it hasn’t, and this is coming from a man who hasn’t been in an interracial relationship to speak of (besides sleeping around maybe, but I said to speak of…). Also, one of my husband’s grandparents, but she comes from a horrendously racist family. Besides that, no one has said a word of negativity about it, and when we married, my husband and I were congratulated and praised like any other marrying couple, interracial or not. our races did not come up in such joyous conversations about marriage or our child. Now, when I became pregnant, the only thing scrutinized was our youth, but people were excited and constantly trying to figure out what our little one would look like since she’d be mixed, but that is far from negative.

    All in all, I believe that the older the white men, the more opposed, simply because they grew up in a society where this didn’t happen as often. The white men I’ve known (and I’ve known many) would LOVE to date a black woman, most of them are just shy :). And NO. I am not some beautifully yellow skinned woman with “Caucasian features” or “Silky hair”. I have soft, chin length hair, a caramel skin tone, round eyes, full lips, and a short, wide nose (although button like because it’s small and close to the face). I have Korean in my family, but it’s not prevalent enough to make a difference. I LOOK BLACK. my husband prefers it. Really, the times are changing. The percentage will rise slowly, but it will rise, and that’s the important thing. I say, go for what you want. When you are in an interracial marriage or relationship, if you’re serious, then you’ll forget sometimes that one or the other of you is a different race.

  28. mikec3756

    Hello, stumbled across your post by accident, but found the discussion fascinating. Seems to me that while both of your male respondents are extremely crass, the first has a deep-seated class bias that has been shaped by too much reality TV. You get the feeling he wouldn’t have many good things to say if you said “Southern white women” as well. The second displays breathtaking bigotry regarding intelligence levels, but doesn’t discount black women as potential partners. Finally, while it is impossible to deny that the “white aesthetic” pushes a narrow-feature beauty ideal, it is important to remember that all distinct groups of human beings have aesthetic ideals and that the “white aesthetic” is not innately sinister, but simply supported by Western economic forces. Clearly, however, our society needs to shift to reflect its increasing diversity. Perhaps increasing numbers of mixed-race people in the West are the “gateway” to this shift. Just as an aside, I find it curious that the attraction of finer features seems quite nuanced; I remember one of my friends saying he didn’t like Dutch and German girls because their features were “too broad” and he preferred French girls. Also said he loved East African girls and once had a Kenyan girlfriend…

  29. Mielita

    I also have stumbled upon this page, and I’m always enticed by the grappling that many do when it comes to racial analysis :) At 17, I date who I like, no discrimination. I live in the South, and I’ve visited every southern state but Virginia, and I’m curious as to where these “troubled black women” reside, because white men of all ages have no problem approaching me on a daily basis.

    I have angular, sharp facial features, long hair, caramel skin, and an hourglass WHR ratio; I’m of ethiopian descent with some hispanic admixture, though I refuse to credit either or for mi appearance. But what is peculiar to me, is how many white men like decidedly “white attributes” on a black woman such as a medium to small nose, lengthy hair, and a thin shape. I’ve even heard some coin mi speech and mannerisms as “educated, and white, therefore attractive.” WHAT!? Yet, they harp on mi “black features” as exotic – particularly mi cheekbones, lips, complexion, and backside (strange, no?). I suppose that the males I’ve encountered prefer some sort of “middle-ground” when dating out. But to apply mi experiences to this article and overall reality would prove as fallacious as the generalizations given by those involved… I understand some black women do fit the existing stereotypes. But some white, hispanic, indian, and asian women do too.

    There are a lot of entities at play under the laws of attraction, race included. But pre-conceived notions are definitely not the way to find a spouse, and if one has a preference, allowing it to not manifest as a prejudice is what discerns a man from a bigot. Ultimately, I’m saying those truly open to ir dating should fully give each other a chance, or just leave it to those who are ready.

    • Blaque Swan

      Hi Mielita. I’m always enticed by the responses stumbler-upons leave! LOL!

      Now of course I don’t know how much of the post and comments read. Maybe the entire post and half the comments or something like that? Seeing as I left a good many comments myself, plus I’m intentionally procrastinating right now, I just thought I’d share a thought or two.

      First off, you’re only 17. It doesn’t really matter what state you’re in and their particular laws regarding statutory rape, I’m concerned that white men of all ages have no problem approaching you. Do you look older than you are? How much so (and why)? And if you don’t look much older than say, 18; and by “all ages” you actually mean “all ages”; then I have to ask, do your parents know about these men who have no problem hitting on you?

      Now, if you’re like me, you mentioned your age for a reason, yes? As an older black woman and student of race, I do appreciate the mention. It gives me a hint about how you view the world and why. It also lets me know you’ll be starting university soon, yes? Then let me give you some advice: always be aware of what’s going on in the world around you; always remember little words and lessons from the past; and always, always ask yourself, “Why?” and, “Is it true?”

      It goes something like this: why would it be fallacious to apply your experiences to this article and these comments? You start out highlighting the difference in your dating experience and the ones mentioned above, but ultimately, you describe the same thing we older black women have all experienced: congratulations for white attributes on one hand, and curiousity and attraction to black attributes on the other. Ie, the comments on your speech as educated and white versus the harping on your exotic, black features.

      So is it true that it would be fallacious to apply your experiences to this article? Ultimately, don’t be afraid to connect the dots. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. Don’t let anybody tell you different.

      By the same token, we live in an asymmetrical society. So remember symmetry is not the same as equality. Or, to potentially confuse the previous duck metaphor – geese honk. As in they walk like ducks but don’t quack like ducks and so they’re not ducks. Corny? Yes. Forgettable? No. You’re going to college soon. Unless you go to an HBCU, you’re gonna hear a lot of intelligent-sounding stupidity. Someone’s gonna complain about all the blacks sitting together in the cafeteria or about how uncomfortable they felt at a black student organization’s meeting. And it’ll sound reasonable. But who’s keeping the white students from sitting with their black classmates? Who’s making white students feel uncomfortable in nearly all-black or all-any other minority settings? If that’s how white students feel one hour a week or so, how must minority students feel 167hours?

  30. lmfort

    An excerpt from ‘Habits of Whiteness A Pragmatist Reconstruction’ by Terrance MacMullan:

    We see “negro” again function as an exclusionary way in another law that was designed to deny African-descended women that was perhaps the sole female privilege in the colony: the freedom from taxation. On March 2, 1643, the burgesses ordered that “there be tenn pounds of [tobacco] per poll and a bushel of corne per poll paid to the ministers within the severall parishes of the colony for all tithable persons, that is to say, as well for all youths of sixteen years.” This law denied Virginian women of African descent the slight gender benefit afforded under the dominate English conceptions of femininity, where women were supposedly too delicate to do field work, and thus were incapable of working at the quintessential economic activity of the colony. Since women of African descent were not considered as feminine as their European counterparts by the lawmakers, they were forced to pay a poll (or person) tax that European women did not.

    Check out: Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia by Kathleen M. Brown (Nov 1996)!

  31. Levertis Steele

    I know that all black people do not think alike, and I cannot expect all blacks to agree with me or not say things that make me angry because I see weaknesses in their characters. BUT, I do not understand why some of you black women care about what some of these white men think about your black features. It should not be important. Do you know who made you? God does not make junk. He made all races for His good pleasure and divine purposes. Many black women feel lost and alone and blame black men, white people, and others. Blame only yourself. If you are the King’s daughter, then you are a princess, and you ought to act like it. Fact! If you are not a princess already, become a real princess, and forget what these duck-strutting want-to-be-gods say about you. Lift your head, and walk like a princess. Jesus, the King, qualified you, not a deluded white man who thinks he is dominant, almighty, and all powerful. Swallow that crap if you want to, and you will find yourself submitting, bowing, and back into slavery! Modern-day slavery is alive and doing well all over the world. People are deluded because they think it is precisely the way it was for slaves in the earlier centuries. Not quite.

    Do not misunderstand me, there are indeed some very mannerable, decent, Christian, real men among white males. Likewise, there are some very mannerable, decent, Christian, real men among black males. The same applies to women of both races, and the opposite applies to all. Good and bad people are all around us. You cannot change anyone but yourself. You were not made to be left alone. Ask the One who is able to find the husband that HE made for YOU. You do not have to search wrecklessly among your own kind or outside of your own to find a husband. Just ask and wait. If God gives you one among your own, take him. If he gives you one outside your race, take him . Anything from God is good. If it comes from man, you will have one devil of a time no matter the race.

    Calm down. Take care of yourself. Keep yourself clean and free of worldy infestations. Elevate your mind. Ask Him for what you need (I did not say “want.”) Wait for HIM to supply. Do not allow any man to fill your house with babies until he is your good husband. I would not want to marry a man with children unless he was a good prospect for a husband and/or a good man widowed from a wife who gave them to him. There is not anything wrong with being selective. Stop stepping down to get what you want. If you want a good man who is “up there,” you need to be up there too. Hold your head up and step up because no one else can lift it for you. If you do not think that you can look up, anyone else’s efforts to lift it would fail. Think and think!

    • MST

      Great post. I guess because I’m an “oldhead,” but I don’t really care what white men think of me (or anybody else for that matter).

      By the way, I was married for twenty years to a white man who was frankly, a jerk. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

  32. cordoba blue

    “Stop stepping down to get what you want. If you want a good man who is “up there,” you need to be up there too. Hold your head up and step up because no one else can lift it for you.”
    LOL! You are speaking to black women? Everytime a black woman tries to lift her head up, a white person kicks her. How can she keep her head lifted when white people think of her as sub-human? Good enough to clean toilets but not clean enough to use one?
    Why should black people get preached to when white middle class America refuses to take responsibility for the conditions black people must live in? Millions of black children running around without fathers. Mothers who work 3 jobs just to pay for a cockaroach infested apartment. Children who do poorly in school because of the racism that inter-twines the system. More black children drop out of high school than any other ethnic group. Why? Because teachers track black children almost from day 1. They don’t give African American kids the same attention they lavish on the white children. It’s only a reaction to white teachers that black children drop out.
    Raise yourself up? How, when white America stomps all over you?

  33. dinamo4889

    The constitution States “all men are created equal” in modern times this includes women. Then why is it necessary to dig into history try to rationalize modern trends trough historical events. Yes Karl Marx has said that history repeats itself but this is inapplicable in to our modern society because of the sexual revolution and the civil rights movement. The Soviet Union went from being a mostly an agrarian society to putting a satellite into space in only 30 years. How was that possible?? Joseph Stalin was a brilliant man he forcefully implemented changes to a society full of prejudices and superstitions. According to Freud most our human feelings are based on irrational fears. Now back to Stalin, he replaced the symbol of god with his own image in order to bring sensible understanding into the masses. He also starved to death much of his opposition hence the famous quote “if there is a man there is a problem. No man no problem” What we must do in order to Change our perception of the world is to destroy memories of past injustices in order to build a new future. The new World Trade center had a new better foundation to stand on instead of building the same faulty one that failed after the impact. 75% of my family died during the Holocaust and not a single day do I blame the modern German population for what had happened. Lets face it none of us were there during the days of slavery or even during the days of the Jim Crow laws so lets be progressive rather than regressive.

    • Seattle in Texas

      Shanah Tovah

      There used to be a great German blogger on here and she hasn’t been on for a couple of years probably, jwbe. She would be helpful here. Peace to you jwbe, if you are still around, btw.

      We should never forget our history. Did 75% of your family die during the Holocaust, or in the Holocaust? Germany took out 95% of my mother’s side of the familial population in Lithuania during the Holocaust–they were killed in the Holocaust. It had a profound effect on the family here in the U.S., whom had emigrated at the turn of the twentieth century and were connected throughout…. Just forget the Holocaust? Really? Interesting to hear from a person whose family perished during the Holocaust. The one thing I do have to say for Germany, however, is at least they’ve confronted their history and paid reparations–more than we can say for the U.S. But true, racism and antisemitism is still quite problematic in Germany.

      And it’s interesting you praise Stalin and put him up on a pedestal. He’s responsible for killing more Jews than Hitler.

      Forgetting history is being regressive, and failing to take the responsibility of presenting an honest history and the consequences of history is reckless to both humankind, the earthly environment and all living species, and its/our future.

      Making excuses to sidestep reparations here in the U.S., regardless of when our family/ancestors immigrated, particularly if of a lighter skinned group, is morally wrong and ignorant, as lighter skinned groups/people entered the U.S. with the edge of tapping into white privilege and all the benefits that come with it, a core component of white supremacy, just with a different mask. Blindly embracing white privilege and advocating that America embraces social amnesia actively fuels white supremacy by refusing to confront the historical wrongs this nation has inflicted on millions upon millions through genocide, slavery, and the apartheid. Light skinned immigrants enter the U.S. with a significant edge that leads to the ability to “succeed” much more rapidly than people of color, and people of color whose generations go back many, including whose generations are only limited to the North American continent–American Indian.

      There are many still alive that lived during the days of Jim Crow, and if they didn’t directly, have parents and grandparents who did–regardless of racial/ethnic group. To claim otherwise is incorrect and insensitive.

      And think about the conditions in which people/U.S. have come to the U.S. As a person whose been subjected to polka music and Neil Diamond more than I’d like to remember, I’d recommend listening to this song and think about what it means to different groups–what it means to people whose ancestors were brutally enslaved in the U.S. and how as a group whose generations go back to the first whites, as well as those whose are beneficiaries and still targeted victims of genocide here in North America and the U.S., all of whom still remain the primary beneficiaries of the consequences of white supremacy and all of the psychological and material consequences that go with it (forced immigration and the inhumane system of slavery and later Jim Crow, and what we have today–of which I still haven’t found a word for that describes it…but all had no effects on Black society?? Or AI society also? No lasting effects at all???):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P5SrAdZHOE

      Let’s all be progressive and forget history? Really? That will really fix all the problems plaguing groups of color? And prevent history from repeating itself? Really? Destroy memories of past injustices to build a new future? Really? For who? And to secure what for who? How about working towards destroying racism by taking the first step of critically and honestly addressing the past injustices and making a commitment to never forget???

  34. cordoba blue

    @ dinamo: “Yes Karl Marx has said that history repeats itself but this is inapplicable in to our modern society because of the sexual revolution and the civil rights movement.”
    According to this blog the civil rights movement merely allowed African Americans to drink from the same fountain as whites. Lots of other issues to address. So it’s an on-going process.
    I still believe there are beliefs within the black community that, if changed, could help black people make progress. It seems to be well accepted within black communities that a man can have a girl friend who is expecting his child, and the man take no responsibility for the baby. Studies have shown that the most relevant factor determining whether children perform well in school is whether they have strong supportive parents. No parents: poor grades. A black woman has the weight of the universe on her shoulders trying to work 3 jobs and then helping her child with his homework. The black father, on the other hand, is nowhere to be found.
    I actually tutor a black lady who is trying to attain a 4-year degree. Her boyfriend is her child’s husband, but never married her. Last week he became very angry at her, she related, because “You think you’re smarter than me!” He then proceeded to break one of her fingers. She came into the tutoring session with her finger bandaged up. The boyfriend is presently in jail. So he doesn’t marry her, PLUS he resents the fact she’s trying to achieve something. Not a workable policy if you’re a race that needs to make economic and educational advancement.
    On the other hand Jewish people came to America determined to succeed no matter what. Men married women, education was emphasized, family was paramount. They did not have an easy time, and many people are anti-Semitic to this day, including many Germans.But, they were still more accepted than African Americans. Racism must be addressed. But black people must also take responsibility for helping themselves. President Obama said as much, of course, in his address to the Black Caucus last week. The speech was well received within that group, but there are probably many blacks who believe the president is asking too much from individuals and not enough from “the state” to adjust for bias. If you depend too much on the abstract “the state”, it will never compensate for individual actions.

    • Seattle in Texas

      I’m just going to be blunt. I resent your claim that Jews have stronger family values than Blacks, and they were more determined to succeed, etc., no matter what. It’s called white supremacy–the effects of white supremacy that allowed Jews as a group to gain upward mobility and inherently block Blacks as a group from the same–despite the deep Antisemitism. Plus there’s this thing called “passing”…. There’s a great book, it’s called “Systemic Racism” you might want to read some time. I think it’s on the recommended reading list on this site. And why you keep reinforcing negative stereotypes of both Black men and women is so beyond me–the only reasonable explanation is that’s what you truly believe and how you view Black society. There are “successful” Blacks and it’s not the case that Blacks need whites to save them from their stereotyped and real poverty and need whites to tutor them in order to “succeed” in college, etc. This nation needs structural and institutional changes…as well as massive antiracist thoughts and teachings implemented in virtually all facets of U.S. society.

      Your take reminds me of a discussion I had a while back with a po Black male in Texas who said, “The North’s just as racist as the South. I can guarantee it. It’s just they’d be all like, ‘come here little poor Black person, here, let me give you a piece of fried chicken.” You keep acting like Black people and society is all poor, dumb, and lacks strong morals and values–that’s all so wrong and so backwards.

      And to claim Black men don’t love their children or care about them? Regardless of their situations, etc? Like, I don’t even have words for that at the moment, seriously. So whites and men of other groups somehow do love their children “more”, and want the best for them?

      I have to quit reading this stuff. It’s too much.

      • cordoba blue

        LOL! Lighten up Seattle. Isn’t that what you told me to do? Pass the Prozac and have a party!
        By the way, this particular black woman CALLED ME to ask for a tutor. I never said all black people need white tutors..where do you get this stuff? Your reading comprehension skills need work Seattle,LOL
        ‘Sides the black lady decided to CONFIDE HER STORY of MISERY about the DREADED BOYFRIEND to “The dreaded white supremacist tutor” (that would be me according to you). I wonder why she did that? Maybe it’s cause at that moment in time she trusted a kind white WOMAN more than she trusted her jealous-of-her-education boyfriend. I mean the guy did break her finger!
        How do I ever come to my bizarre conclusions? It’s called being an eye witness. You be surprised what you can learn..keep your ear to the ground. Nothin’ beats actually hearing and seein’. And yeah, black women have a hard life: they got racism from whites on one side and their black boyfriends sitting on them trying to break their spirit on the other side. By the way, SHE called the police Seattle..not the white neighbors. Have a nice evening. Sorry my comments frustrate you.:)

  35. cordoba blue

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRfByLRO5xs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5DD220D6A1282057
    Fascinating lecture by Yale professor David Blight about how the southern pro-slavers defended slavery before the Civil War. They saw slavery as a bizarre “Utopian” view of the perfect hierarchical society. It was, they believed “crucial to the development of all great civilizations that at the base of all societies there has to be a labor system”. They saw their hierarchical system as perfectly just and correct,the natural order of life. Henry Hughes, a man from New Orleans wrote a book about the white man’s “warranteeism”. This claimed that slaves were the “charges” of white men to “shape and perfect into perfect extremely efficient Christian laborers.” Some Southerners were more cynical and just claimed having a slave society was just plain good business.
    There was also a philosophy that stated white men should spend their time smoking cigars, drinking brandy, courting women, managing their farms and that menial labor was only for inferior humans, ie African Americans.
    This entire philosophy conflicted with the industrial north’s market revolution wherein the belief was that society was mobile and “anybody” could become part of the middle class. This was, as opposed to the ante-bellum South at any rate, a society that did not believe in a pre-ordained “social order”.
    The South also constantly referred to one’s “duty” versus a man’s “rights”.They justified much of what they did by claiming it was one’s duty to behave in a certain manner. A man’s individual civil rights were not considered as inherently important as him performing his “duties” to his “society”..that would be white society.
    This is a long lecture, but totally worth watching. It sheds again more light on the sometimes inexplicable reasons the South used for perpetuating slavery.

  36. cordoba blue

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQOk4h4hhwo&feature=related
    Yet another lecture by Yale professor David Blight about the End of Reconstruction. In the election of 1876, the Southern Democrats won the majority of seats in congress. For several reasons. American northern political reformists had become “fatigued” with carrying the banner for racial equality. White America was tired of sectionalism and wanted a true reunion between the north and south. There was an economic depression going on that took priority over African American rights.
    In 1876, there was an article written in the magazine The Nation that stated “The Negro will disappear now from the field of national politics. Henceforth the nation, as a nation, will have nothing to do with him”.
    Also the Republican Party had paid a high price for supporting racial equality and didn’t want to pay this debt anymore. Professor Blight quoted here what LBJ said after he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964,”Well Bill, we done lost the South for 10 years.”
    There was a Fourth of July celebration in Mississippi in 1876 by African Americans. They rented a hall and had a big celebration. A mob of white people came to the hall and just opened fire on the crowd. 2 black people were killed and 10 wounded, who later died of their wounds. The south, wrote one writer, “has turned into a great white mob”.
    Frederick Douglass had something to say about the End of Reconstruction. He said Lazarus might be buried for the moment. But like Lazarus, he was only dormant, and would rise again from “death”.

  37. cordoba blue

    The African American community has a two-fold problem. Racism from the white community and crumbling family structures. The point of abolishing racism for everybody is so that everybody has a chance at a comfortable life,for themselves and their children.
    However, WITHIN the black community there are problems that must be addressed, the infrastructure is not working. If these problems continue African Americans will forever drift on the sidelines of America life. An article written by a black writer, Eugene Kane for a newspaper in Milwaukee reads:
    “Statistics show a large percentage of unmarried women with children in the black community, usually living in poverty. Out of wedlock births have gone up for all Americans, but the concern for the black community is that children of single mothers in low-income household are more likely to get poor grades in the public school system and account for more criminal arrests by police.

    It’s a troubling trend that suggests black fathers in Milwaukee are missing in action, which results in myriad social problems that affect everybody’s quality of life.

    Richard Johnson doesn’t buy it.

    “I think there are lots of black fathers who want to do the right thing, but they just don’t know how to do it,” said Johnson, who works for Milwaukee Social Development Commission, which serves low-income residents.

    As an educator with the SDC Headstart Healthy Relationship and Marriage Enhancement Program, he has worked with fathers who attend a series of panel discussions, seminars and workshops designed to improve their parenting skills and reconnect with significant others and their children.

    Johnson, married with four children, has met with Milwaukee fathers over the past year and a half in healthy relationship workshops offered by SDC – the most recent took place earlier this month with about 25 men in attendance – aimed at helping the men deal with the responsibilities of raising children.

    He said many of the mostly black men aged 18 to 41 who attended would like to play larger roles in their children’s lives but are hindered by lack of experience.

    “Some of them never had a father in their own lives, so they don’t really know what to do.”

    Johnson talked about an 18-year-old black man at a recent workshop who admitted he had never seen a positive male role model in his rough Milwaukee neighborhood. The man had three children, each by a different woman.

    “He told me, ‘You’re the only role model I’ve ever had. With everybody else, it’s kill, deal or steal,’” Johnson said. “That’s what he was facing back in his own community.”
    I like Johnson’s approach. It’s NEEDED. Now I have no idea if Johnson is white or black..does it matter? If he can make a difference.. does it matter? Note how he explains that many men unmarried with children don’t know how to be fathers, because they didn’t have any positive male role models, and those fathers probably had no positive male role models. The black community has, in some ways, been a MATRIARCHAL society for a long time now..except for those situations where there is a man married to a wife and they at least have high school educations..and they make an effort to support their children financially and educationally. It ain’t perfect, but it’s better than what is depicted above. With supervisory, loving parents, kids have a chance to break the poverty cycle. If anybody disputes this, well, common sense has entirely left your perceptions. It doesn’t make sense to address one elephant in the room: RACISM without addressing the other elephant: THE EVER-INCREASING TREND OF BLACK CHILDREN WITHOUT A POSITIVE MALE ROLE MODEL
    The name of the article is Teaching Absentee Fathers to Step Up. Here’s the link:
    http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/96734374.html

    • Holly703

      The two fold problem is too much introspection and statistical non-sense about how inferior we are to everyone else. The thing that gets me is that we actually spend more time on the problem than the solution. Swan probably spent a year trying figure out stuff we all already know; polling white American guys who never been outside of their small towns, like they are the only men on earth who want to mate. And please don’t get me started on all the females who commented that this information was helpful. Here’s my note: Black women DATE OUTSIDE YOUR RACE!!! Don’t believe the press telling you can’t. Black women BE YOURSELF!! Don’t believe the press telling you you’re negative because most of the time your not. Black women WHITE MEN AND OTHERS ARE JUST AS GREAT LOVERS AS BLACK MEN. Don’t believe that black men are the only fish in the sea. Can we put these silly things like this in our past and focus on how far we’ve come? Yes there was slavery, yes there was injustice, but there was also Harriet Tubman and Madame C.J. Walker pioneers who paved they way for us. Do you think they sat around trying to figure out the statical analysis of how many slave got to live in the house? No, they found a solution and implemented it. Swan can you post more solutions next time? How about a study on how African American women have thrived in the work force and how we may balance our professional lives with our love lives.

      • Blaque Swan

        You realize you weren’t replying to me, right? If I hadn’t looked up and seen my handle, I wouldn’t even have read your comment. I ignore everything Cordoba Blue writes.

        But since you did call me out, no, I did not spend a year putting together all that data. I’m not the one who wrote the article. You’ll notice, that was Brittany.

        But just so we’re clear, the studies I’ve read show that black women are actually quite willing to date men of other races. The problem is society’s negative view of black women. Not black women’s feelings about non-black men. I’m sorry I can’t offer a straight-forward solution to the problem, but I can say the problem is neither black women nor our fault.

        Besides, who said black women believe what the press says about us? Black men on average do have larger penises. That’s not a myth. But as the saying goes, it’s not size that matters.

        Lastly, I’m not an administrator for this blog or anything. I’m just a student, as it were. But I do feel free to point out that the name of the blog is Racism Review, not response to racism review. As I’m sure you’re well aware, the first step to solving any problem is acknowledging that there is one. Seeing that so many people and the press portray black women as the problem when it comes to interracial dating, the first step to solving this dilemma is acknowledging what the true problem is, ie “White Men’s Hostility to Black Women.”

        • Thank you Blaque Swan. Some of the poster just don’t get it that most Black women prefer men of Color in general, Black men in particular because that’s the men we are familiar with. Most of us grew up with Black fathers, brothers, uncles, etc.

          What we don’t like is the larger society’s failure to own up to it’s hateful racist sexist treatment of Black women. It’s not like Black women reject white men. It’s the other way around. They(White men) reject us except when they want to use us as a sexual fetish to be hidden or tossed aside for the more exalted Asian or the most pedestaled and protected of all, White women.

          Everytime I pick up a newspaper, listen to media propaganda on TV, radio, or the internet, it’s exhorting Black women to widen out to White men but I don’t see articles or books written by White men exhorting other White men to date, marry, and have children with Black women nor do I hear them telling fellow White men to own up their historical stereotypes, treatment and abuse of Black women. Not one book, TV, movie, radio show period.

          But what about the hateful rant by John Mayer, Halle’s ex-boyfriend’s use of racial and sexist slurs, The overwhelming preference for non-Black women by White men on dating websites as well as reality TV. Scott Baio’s snide comment on Michelle Obama, Rush Limbaugh’s hateful comments about Black women in general. Add the street harrassment, unwanted groping, sexual harrassment, etc.

          Black women/White men marriages? No, it’s not going to happen for a long time as long as they developed and promote stereotypes about us. Not as long as they still treat us like fourth-class citizens and as sexual fetish to be hidden.

          This I had to get off my chest today. I hope people have an open mind on my perspective on White men’s hostility to Black women.

          Yours truly,

          La Reyna

          • Holly703

            You all need to get out more. There are more people in the world than just black and white people. You generalize too much, and who cares what white men think about black women. They’re not the only fish in the sea.

          • Nicthommi

            I also wonder why SOME (but not all) of the posters refuse to acknowledge the point that this hostility bleeds into other aspects of life.
            I don’t give a darn if Rush Limbaugh, who should not be talking about anyone’s looks or weight, wants to say that I look like a fat, black ape, but a lot of people listen to him and I don’t want to be stopped by a policeman, or work with or for white men who hold his views.
            So this study is disturbing to me when I think of how many white men who will be in a position to harm me might be in my midst.
            I dislike how people think that we care so much, but as I’ve pointed out, a lot of people who want to claim that black women are so awful and say so in surveys like this would still try to sleep with one, as long as no one found out.
            A lot of hypocrisy is mixed into the hostility, and even some claiming that only Halle Berry or Beyonce are attractive does not play out as such in real life, although their gross beliefs usually show immediately. You know, people who say you are cute for a black girl, or how they don’t normally like black girls, yada, yada, yada.
            It seems to be that the most common form of derailing for this topic are the people who say “oh, why do you care about what white men think?” (See below)…b/c their hatred and hostility bleeds into more than just dating or who is “pretty” and into things that I need (a job, an education, and to not get beaten by cops to name a few). Those men who think we are so ugly also think we are loud, uncouth, and uneducated, so who do you think wins the job or promotion more often if they are the deciders?

        • Holly703

          Well, my mistake; I thought you were the one who wrote the article. And I will apologize for my semi rant. Sometimes I do get frustrated with all the negative press that black women receive. I just don’t want us as black women to play into it or even focus on it because we bring a lot more to the table than mating potential. I wish we would focus on our good qualities like our strength and loyalty rather than lament over things we simply can’t control.

          I will comment although that I have seen my share of non-black men to include white men who are very well endowed. My point here was to say that black men have not completely cornered the market in this area and we as black women should not believe they have. I would think it would put a lot of pressure on our men who have average size members to live up to a myth (perhaps even looking elsewhere to expectations that may not be so high.)

        • cordoba blue

          Blaque Swan states: “But I do feel free to point out that the name of the blog is Racism Review, not response to racism review.”
          I beg to differ. A discussion requires a response. Or else it’s not a discussion. Is the point of the blog to merely point out example after example after example of racism? I think we’re all aware it exists. And I hope we all find it despicable.
          But I’ve observed that Blaque Swan’s answer to every question, every single situation, every blip on the radar screen, every sociological dilemma is “the white man must change, the white man must change”. No effort is made to address the infrastructure within the black community that must change along with the elimination of racism.
          I already posted a very reliable article stating the TREND of black men to ignore the women parents of their own children,and not live up to their responsibility of fatherhood. This phenomenon is more prevalent in the African American lower-income community than any other lower or middle level ethnic community in America.
          This is a real situation. Semantics such as “blaming the victim” won’t change it. These kids need positive male role models and they aren’t getting them. Catch phrases such as “whites shouldn’t preach to blacks” won’t cut it either because do you think whites,people from India, Hispanics, Asians, Russians,people from the Middle East are all completely blind?
          Do you know how many people from all different countries I’ve tutored with all different skin colors who have asked me, “What’s wrong with black Americans?” This is not because of some insinuous brain washing. They SEE it. They witness the indifference to school, the lack of united family units, the crime rate and they are AFRAID for their own children’s safety.
          A man from India with VERY DARK skin told me that his son’s best friend was beat up in the restroom by two African American kids. They also robbed him of $5.00 from his bookbag. Now the kid’s afraid to go to school anymore.
          Once upon a time, this was the reverse, black kids were afraid to go to school because white kids threatened them. So, now we’ve come full circle since Brown vs Board of Education. Now black kids get white kids alone and beat the living daylights out of them, and each other also. Is this what any sane person would call progress. Is this some kind of sick pay-back? I actually don’t think the perpetrators think that far. They just don’t have any parental supervision, no guidance, no discipline, no boundaries set by parents.
          No. It’s not all about everybody on the planet just “looking at it from a different angle”. The black community has to change too. No amount of sympathy, aid, empathy, discussing slavery, the Civil Rights Movement, Malcolm X or if white men are turned on by black ladies with adjust for NO FATHERS.

  38. lmfort

    During the 60′s social scientists studied black families and one particular study (the Moynihan Report) found that black men were abandoning their families.One excuse that they came up with was because black women were “too” strong. History plays a large role in thsi subject matter. After slavery, blacks were not allowed to perform any kind of work besides ‘slave’ work. African American men were not being hired whereas there was always service jobs(cook, house cleaner, nanny) for black women. Because America puts so much emphasis on a man being the breadwinner, African American men, not being able to find work, would often abandon their families. Sort of like the old saying “women need to feel loved. Men need to feel needed”. So the idea that black women were “too strong” (Sapphire stereotype)and that they were the bread winner, mothers, fathers, wives performing both the “masculine” and “feminine” roles (as our society defines them) puts black women in a unique position. Women are not supposed to be bread winners or leaders in the family. It takes the idea of femininity away from the black women and turns her into a man. Hence, white men may not feel as though black women are really women but men with breasts and babies. . .

    just my theory

    • Imfort,

      Not just as workhorses, Black women during slavery were raped or otherwise sexually exploited by the hypocritically “Christian” White men. Those men use their position and their entitlement mentality to use Black women while keeping Black men from most women, not just White women. They dictate to Black men which women to have or not have while making them powerless to protect loved ones from being raped, abused, and murdered. That’s one issue that Whites don’t want discussed period.

      La Reyna

      • Nicthommi

        @La Reyna,
        It wasn’t just during slavery that white men availed themselves of black women.
        A lot of black people from the Jim Crow South, esp. from my grandparents and great-grandparents (non-slaves) generation were half-white. You’d have “black” people who looked like their white employers. Sometimes almost like twins. You’d have people like my grandma and other older black people I knew (e.g. Strom Thurmond’s secret black daughter) who’d get educational and financial support.
        Many branches of Southern black families have a pretty recent white branch. They’d never acknowledge her as family but my grandma knew who her white cousins were. And another now deceased elderly black woman I knew as a child told me about white people who’d regularly bring “donations” to her house. Only they were even being brought a car by these people in the 20′s or 30′s. And people in town made fun of my dark-skinned grandfather when he took my mom and her older sister out as little girls, when people would claim that those little “white” girls couldn’t be his. (They grew up to be very unambiguous looking but I guess were very fair and have straightish hair).
        Just a bit off-topic but this sexual abuse and mis-use definitely outlasted slavery.

    • cordoba blue

      In response to the initial causative factor of WHY black men abandoned their families in the first place (referring to the above comment) I understand racism had a GREAT DEAL to do with it. I understand this was a result of a disenfranchised society which had a terrible time supporting themselves financially.
      But when will black men stop using this as a reason for just hanging with their male friends (like care free single men) instead of making an attempt to protect their own children? When does it stop? Because if black men wait for racism to stop entirely before they start taking responsibility for their families..I think we’ll see millions more black youths in jail and millions of lives ruined before anything changes.
      Since when in 2011 can a man with a clear conscience have 3 babies by 3 different women and just walk away “cause of racism”. Many poor people marry and make an effort to raise their children. You don’t have to live in a $500,000 house to be a kind, decent father. It’s getting to epidemic proportions, and, strangely, the black community (men and women) are simply, at this juncture, accepting this as the norm. And when parents abandon children, society must pick up the tab. The kids are here to stay whether parents acknowledge them or not.

  39. Holly703

    Unfortunately Nicthommi we are not the majority in this society and now we are not even the largest minority. I would pose that we need to technically educate ourselves and continually strive to make more opportunities for ourselves rather than wait for someone to create them for us. I will provide an example so I’m not misinterpreted. There is a huge gap in the IT sector for women in general; let’s educate our daughters to seek out these skills. And personally I welcome the stigma (if there is one) of not being the most prized possession, we tend to get taken more seriously because of it.

    If you really want to make sure that injustices are caught at the door before they arise into something akin to what happened in the German society in the 1940s then make sure you use your voting rights and vote in representative who will ensure this doesn’t happen.

    • Nicthommi

      @Holly, as someone with a technical background, two engineering degrees plus an MBA, and who has been a member of many engineering professional organizations, I can tell you that just getting the education is not enough. I have more degrees (and from the best schools in the country) than anyone I work with, but I still will have to fight and claw to get half of the recognition.

      What I regularly see is a refusal, esp. in high tech, to pursue Black and Latino grads…many of the top tech companies regularly tussle with the EEOC about releasing their numbers, which are abysmal.

      We may not have millions of black engineers and computer scientists, but as an Ivy League grad I can say that I have plenty of black engineer and computer science grad friends (most of whom have advanced degrees of some type), who should be getting pursued by these companies. Only they are not, b/c it’s really not a priority to get us there. At my company, my suggestions about how to get to these people have been summarily ignored.

      I don’t need lectures about voting or education. I always vote, and I’m well aware of current events and history. And as far as education, I rarely meet anyone outside of my alumni circles who has anything comparable.
      There are hugely talented minorities out there.

      The stigma can result in people arbitrarily lowering your grades, people not helping you properly when it is time to apply to college, and people not explaining the process for college entrance exams, etc. My parents were college and grad school educated, and I went to private school, but black students who don’t have those resources are frequently at a disadvantage b/c of these feelings .
      I’m sorry if that is so hard for you to believe. We have work to do, but let’s not ignore the systemic racism that hits people in the face even when they do everything else perfectly and are even exceptional.

      The people who probably benefit from the stereotypes about their race the most are Asians…at least in more science-related or tech settings, they are assumed to be superior and even having a poor grasp of basic English is not held against them. Ridiculous.

      It does not take much for your assertiveness to be judged as “angry black woman” and that does not help your career.

      • Holly703

        Well, I’m glad we’re all educated in this blog; unfortunately some of us are not educated enough to see when someone is agreeing with them. Swan and Nic simply want to continue to point out the obvious. I’m sorry to lump you guys together but with all the high fiving going on it’s hard not to. At the end of the day, what are you two going to do about it? Stick around on this blog and type your frustration out to your hearts content? News flash, they don’t care and will continue not to care unless you are willing to do something about it. My focus is on steering young females toward engineering careers and away from the attitude of they won’t hire me cause I’m black syndrome. I also encourage young girls to start their own businesses and employ themselves (especially in the beauty market-but I still also believe there are heavy opportunities in the engineering field). We already know we have to go above and beyond just to be considered, so lets do just that, go above and beyond in all of our aspirations. Nic, I hope someday you get in the position to hire at your company, perhaps you can make a difference in the hiring practices and I’m glad you recognize that Black people are not the only minority with struggles.

  40. Blaque Swan

    Just co-signing what nicthommi said. We don’t care what white men think about us in terms of marriage and dating. Don’t get me wrong, it is kinda insulting to be dismissed that way. But seeing as how, personally, I would only date Brad Pitt or Brian Simon, it’s no big deal.

    The real problem, and why we’re so concerned, is that these ideas bleed over into other important areas.
    ___________________________________
    @ Holly703 – We do need to keep pushing forward. And my personal favorite stigma is the angry black woman. I have no doubts that just the threat that my mom was about to go “angry black woman” got her and me bumped up to a presidential suite.
    ___________________________________

    But for the record, let’s not get it twi’tted. The problem facing the black community today is racism and its legacy. Let America pay up all the wealth that’s been stolen; stop racism cold; then, talk to me about baby daddy’s and whatnot.

    • Nicthommi

      @Blaque Swan,
      What is with the racist “anti-racists”? I have to love the people who spread lots of hateful garbage and stereotypes. What exactly are you fighting for? Who are you defending? If you wrap a lump of crap up in a Tiffany box and give it to me, it’s still going to stink.

      And seriously, the idea that all we do is pop out babies by multiple men is racism at its finest. That someone would present that as the biggest problem we face, or as typical of black women…”their men don’t take care of their children, they all have babies by a lot of women”. The fact that someone feels comfortable typing that on an “anti-racism” blog speaks volumes about how far we have to go.

      Black males get punished more harshly than anyone else starting in grade school. Many get pushed out completely and at the very least, lose valuable hours of instruction when they are kicked out of class. Other kids who act up in class do not get punished so severely. That is just one of many examples of course about how racism works against us. There is a difference of course between who acts up the most (or as many love to throw out, who commits more crimes) and who is actually PUNISHED (or as an adult, who would be convicted and go to jail) for that behavior.

      I personally don’t want any help from someone who assumes she is smarter than me or that I must have 10 illegitimate kids in tow. Or someone who spreads the ugliest and most racist stereotypes that I have seen outside of perhaps the CNN or Yahoo comments sections. Or maybe that’s just me…

      You know, I feel as though the diversity in the Black American gene pool and phenotype tells me all I need to know about how “ugly” I am.

      • Blaque Swan

        I wholeheartedly agree. For example, every study on the issue demonstrates that all children behave and misbehave at the same rate. But it’s children of color, especially black children, who are punished more often and more severely. Moreover, black children are routinely tracked into classes below the demonstrated abilities, ie standardized test scores, while white children are tracked up. When I speak to black youth groups or just anyone on the subject, I try to really get them to understand that white kids are no smarter or dumber than they are. I’ll say, “I’ve been in classes with these people. I’ve worked on group projects with these people. I can promise you they ain’t smarter than you. I can promise you!” Then, to really stress the point, I tell the story of a girl who came to class wearing shorts even though she’d only shaved up to her knees. I mean, I could tell about the guy who asked if it was always a bad thing to lose your culture, but it just doesn’t have the punch I’m usually going for.

        But I digress.

        To add insult to injury, being a black grad from a top school can work against you in that evaluators assume you only got in (and out) because of affirmative action. A study shows this, but I don’t feel like pulling it up.

        Now, if we had our own firms and businesses and whatnot, it probably wouldn’t really matter. Right? And if we had been received all the benefits and pay due us, we would actually have those firms and businesses and whatnot. Right? Now. If racism is the reason slaves weren’t paid after the Civil War; the reason surviving members of lynching victims weren’t compensated; the reason victims of forced sterilizations weren’t compensated; the reason WW2 vets didn’t get their full share of the GI benefits; yes, I could go on – if racism was the reason then, even as recently as the 80s and 90s when black farmers were discriminated against by the Department of Agriculture, what’s the reason now? One of my favorite things to say: people die; money gains compound interest.

        Now, I assume in your last sentence, you’re referring to the many different shades of brown and yellow that are classified as “black” even though they’re not naturally occurring in sub-Saharan Africa; and the blue and green eyes on chocolate brown faces, etc. That being the case, to you I say, “Tell the truth and shame the devil.”

        In closing, I repeat: I don’t read anything cordoba blue writes. She owes me an apology from our last encounter. But at this moment, her last comment is directly below my writing area, and before I could move the page to such position that her comment was out of view, I did see that she quoted and questioned a something I said earlier. To wit, I’ll put my that particular comment in a different way: sweep around your own front door before you try to sweep around mine. This is Racism Review. Not “response to racism review,” or “what minorities should do to overcome racism review,” or any other such thing. The problem facing the black community is anti-black racism. Fix that and within a generation, all the other so-called “problems” will disappear. I can demonstrate this empirically, but I don’t want to use a comment to you to reply to someone else anymore than I already have.

  41. cordoba blue

    “Let America pay up all the wealth that’s been stolen; stop racism cold; then, talk to me about baby daddy’s and whatnot.”
    In the meantime..the fatherless children pile up and up and up. This is precisely the type of wishful thinking and Utopia-dreaming that terminates ANY practical steps forward. America’s in a recession. After the recession (if that ever happens) America’s not going to tally all the money they owe black people because of slavery, Jim Crow or neo-slavery.
    There are millions of Hispanics who also need attention and funds. African Americans are not the only minority who presently needs financial aid. And to be paid back for slavery? You know this will never ever happen.
    Plus,it’s highly unlikely racism will ever stop cold. There will always be racists on this complex planet, so that’s just one more “when pigs fly..that’s when I’ll start working out at the gym” fantasy and rationalizing. Does anyone really think racism will “stop cold”. I think we all know better. Diminishing it is one thing, but totally eliminate it before you address African American family infrastructure?
    Social programs to give African American fathers counseling on keeping their family together..that’s attainable. In China, you can’t even have more than one baby per person. In America, you can procreate all you want..even if nobody wants to take care of them. This is just one more advantage of living in a democracy..but just please be responsible. If you can’t take care of children, you can certainly educate yourself about birth control. These ideas are very basic. You don’t need a PhD in sociology to figure this one out. Again, we got elephants in the room nobody wants to talk about.

  42. Holly703

    It was fun ladies, but I think this will be my last post. I can see from the readings that this will not end in anything productive so I will sign off. I do hope that you understood where I was coming from. There are enough people putting obstacles in our way besides us doing it for ourselves and continuing to focus on the negative only hurts us. I’ll share a bit of history before I go. Hati is one of the poorest countries on the earth but had the potential to be one of the richest. When the slaves in Hati overturned their oppressors from France they were I possession one of the largest sugar plantations in the world. Instead of continuing the trade, they destroyed the plantations because it was a reminder of the oppression they suffered. The sugar trade moved to South America and the rest is history (trade embargoes, non-recognition, etc.). Let’s not burn the sugar fields. We are a people with countless creativity and unmeasurable resolve. No one can overcome adversity the way our people can, and some cultures envy our tenacity. I state again, black women bring soooooo much more to the table than mating potential and even though some our men go a stray path or end up in jail we still have a culture unmatched in the world. We are descendants of monarch societies and powerful warriors and armies (we were amongst the first cultures to own slaves). I’m not saying that we don’t have a far way to go but let’s a least stop and realize all this “sugar” we have and see how we can capitalize on it. God bless.

    • Blaque Swan

      This thread started months ago. It’s gotten to this point because so few commenters are challenging white men’s views of black women. To some extent, some of the “pro-black women” comments actually add to the negative stereotypes about us. The fact of the matter is that black women don’t sit around bemoaning our lower chances of romance with white men. And like you point out, black women are not the problem. The problem is white men. And before someone protests, lets me clear that one good apple doesn’t improve the whole bunch.

      That said, Haiti’s poverty has nothing to do with destroying sugar fields. (?) Their poverty is a direct result of their being forced to pay reparations to former slave masters and the unwillingness of the West to do or allow trade. They didn’t finish paying France until the 1940s. Then there were the Father & Son dictators and colorism, etc, etc. But the major issue had to do the reparation payments to France.

  43. cordoba blue

    @Holly
    I don’t blame you for leaving Holly. Sometimes the ultimate goal here is not solving problems, but just STATING those problems. I offered several fairly obvious things the poorer black community could do to better their conditions: Fathers not abandoning children coupled with Birth Control..and you can see where they got me. “You just think we’re black momma baby-machines, sitting around bearing the children of absentee fathers! You call that anti-racism? That’s hateful!”
    We got lots of people on here just enjoying the venting. Plus, it’s become an entrenched habit to assign blame to the Spooooky Ole White Man for everything from getting a hole in your sock to a thunder storm (“Damn white men..I hate when it thunders!”)It’s called Victimology 323..down the hall past the Racism 101 class.
    However, there are excellent educational articles, and I try to contribute some to those. Thanks for stopping by! God Bless.

  44. cordoba blue

    Tina22 said:I’m engaged to a white man and he treats me like a QUEEN.
    I’m really sorry but I still maintain there is more neglect regarding black men toward white women and black women instead of the reverse. Harking back to the abuses that white men heaped on black women slaves does not account for nor justify the way many POOR (qualifier) black men treat both white and black women.
    You can’t justify everything African Americans do in the urban 2011 televised/computerized/global market/ world by evoking the wrongs whites did to blacks during slavery. Middle class black men do not (from what I’ve seen) treat any women with disrespect. Perhaps it’s because African American men who are poor feel humiliated and inferior that they must take out their aggressions/neglect on women. This could be the case.
    Like I mentioned I personally have witnessed quite a few white girls in my high school in North Carolina become pregnant by black men, and then the black men just left. This has caused alot of pain for the girl, because not many men want to marry a twenty-year-old girl with a 3 year old child. Most men want to start their own family at this VERY YOUNG age. They aren’t ready to adopt another child that’s not even theirs.
    Same story with African American women. Seems to have become the norm to become pregant by your black boyfriend and then to the girl’s dismay her boyfriend even refuses to occasionally baby sit with the dismissive, “I’m busy”. If he can hang out with his friends he can surely babysit once and awhile. Again, with middle class SES black men I have not seen this behavior.
    It’s illogical to justify any of this behavior in modern America because of slavery. I myself could not do something irresponsible and then say,”I did it because my great great great grandfather was unjustly in prison once.”

  45. Cath

    Hi everyone! Wow, I’m impressed. I’m a 30 years old biracial woman. My dad is from mali (Africa) and my mum is German, I was born and raised in Germany. It’s not a nice topic to talk about, but at least you guys have the opportunity to share your opinions. Conversations like that just don’t exist in germany which is one of the reasons I’ll leave eventually… but that’s a different topic

    I grew up with white people only, I was the only black girl in school, and it was an ongoing nightmare to be honest. I spent some time in the states and the UK and my black girlfriends over there complained a lot about the white guys in their countries, but I think they are angels compared to my german fellows…. I think a lot of white Europeans are very racist and even more sexist than americans.

    I have had dates with men from a lot fo countries, black men, latin american men, white men… I’ve decided not to date Geman white men anymore, BUT: I don’t think I will date a black guy either.

    I prefer a mixedraced guy, no matter what races his mixture consists of. BECAUSE: as soon as I’m in an all white or all black environment, the color comes into play…You don’t have these issues with mixraced guy, oriental guys, latin american guys ect…

    I’m not saying they are never racists, you meet these people everywhere. But the black – white issue is a problem in black-white relationships, and if its not in issue between the people being part of the relationship, it becomes an issue within the family, between friends ect..

    I’ve also made the experience that german guys are a lot more disrepctful in clubs towards women of color… A lot of them don’t have the guts to talk down to their “own” women the way they talk to us…However I think at the end of the day guys like that may be more hostile towaars black women, but if they disrepect black women, they disrespect all women no matter what…

    Disrepect is disrespect – and not for me.

    Just wanted to give you guys a European perspective.

    Merry Christmas

  46. cordoba blue

    Cath Says: “but I think they are angels compared to my german fellows…. I think a lot of white Europeans are very racist and even more sexist than americans.”

    Thank you Cath for posting this! You wouldn’t beleive how many commentators on here (including Seattle especially) say stuff like “The Germans have acknowledged their racism, but Americans are still in denial”. Say what? The same Germany that led millions of innocent civilians into the concentration camps and gas chambers? I’ve been to Germany myself and though I’m white, I’ve heard racist remarks while I was there toward Jewish people. The Germans, in general, from anecdotes of other friends who visited Germany, are an extremely racist ethnocentric group of people. Have been for a long time.
    My friends even had a teenage German girl visit their home as an exchange student 20 years ago, and she didn’t even know about the Holocaust! Apparently, they deleted this particular bit of information from history books. I’ve also heard Germans boast about how German people were excellent engineers, artists, mathematicians, musicians, poets etc as if people of German descent are genetically superior to everybody else. What a bunch of nonsense. No wonder Hitler could turn them so easily! They were already programmed to be receptive to such ludicrous beeswax!
    Anyway, thank you so much for contributing to this site and hopefully allowing many people a true European perspective! :)

    • Cath

      The Germans acknowledged their racism??? Oh my god, what a bunch of nonsense. They told me the same thing my whole life, we are not racist and you are too sensitive.

      Concerning holocaust, maybe that girl was just tired of talking about it and just pretended she doesn’t know anything about it. We hear about that on TV every single day and German students are attacked in the Netherlands, the UK ect. a lot. So that’s not easy either, especially when you were born 40 years after the war and you got nothinhg to do woth it.

      But concernding black people…OH MY GOD!!! They may have kind of overcome the racism towards other Europeans, but especially black people have a hard life in this country. We are not taken seriously at all, unless you are a tall black guy born in germany and athletic, handsome and everyone wants to be like you.

      But for us black women….Good lord, let me tell you something, all my black girlfriends have left germany, off the US and the UK. I already spent 2 years in the UK and next year I’m planning on heading to Canada.

      Ha, I have to tell you some stories, please don’t believe Europeans when they say they are more open-minded.

      I am lawyer and I used to work as a scientific researcher at the German PARLIAMENT. My boss once introduced me to a new colleague as the cleaner…And he then said if you are nice to her, she might prepare you an African dish…Remember, I am a lawyer and so was he.

      The next day I told him I’m not gonna take it, and kicked me ou of his room.

      That’s the way they do it on this country. They can’t be openly racist due to the history, but they make it look like a joke and expect you to just swallow it. Whick you usually do.

      My primary school teacher used to hit me with a book right into my face. I was the only one that got hit. She used to ask my mum: how comes she speaks german that well? She’s confusing me. And she kept on beating me. Which is forbidden in Germany by the way…

      My mum used to argue with her, and she kept on beating me. My dad then said to her if she does it once again, she will regret it. He had to take out the racial stereotype of the mad black man. And guess what? It worked, she stopped beating me.

      These are just 2 expamplethat I picked just to show you taht this happens not only among educated people.

      Racism is definitely accepted in ethis country.

      Don;t let them confuse you when they say they love Barrack Obama. They love him as long as he stays in the US, but if he happened to run in this country…There is NO WAY a conurty in EU would ever accept a person of color as their head of state.

      People who claim that Germans/Europeans are better than Americans are liers

      I’m a l

      But regarding

      • Seattle in Texas

        Hello Cath,

        This is probably the only time I will respond here within this comment block, but wanted to quickly say that some folks come on here to twist the words around of other commentors and basically harass them. They challenge the main posts often–it’s one thing to challenge them if you have a legitimate claim with substance. But it’s not the case. They refuse to do any readings or “listen” critically and reduce all forms of racism to the individual level, then turn around and blame the targets of racism for their social locations and circumstances within U.S. society, etc.–particularly those who have been historically most marginal and oppressed in U.S. history and society. It’s kinda like that dirty type of fighting or bullying behavior of, kick ‘em while their down and keep ‘em down to make sure they won’t get back up, mentality. Very annoying.

        But with relation to the comment–the first thing I have to say, is I think it’s wrong to suggest one type of racism or oppression is “worse” than another–all forms are painful and harmful. I believe when people make such suggestions, they are deliberately trying to cause conflict between the oppressed, which serves to set up barriers that prevent the different groups from unifying as a collective against the larger social forces that are responsible for all forms of racism and oppression. And this need not be reduced to the U.S. only. So, I would not suggest one type of racism or oppression is worse than another–and certainly not within or between nations. Though, I might suggest that there are situations where it is not exactly accurate or even appropriate to suggest all forms are entirely “equal” either–take feminism in the U.S. for example. I don’t think the situation of the white woman in history is the same as Black women in history–a whole discussion I will bypass here.

        Now, with relation to the U.S. and Europe, Germany more specifically, I have said that Germany has acknowledged their racism and I still don’t take that back. I did not say Germany was not racist, nor did I say there is no longer any racism in Germany. Further, I made no comment on the treatment of Blacks in Germany or the treatment of people in color more generally in Germany. My understanding is that at least at the individual levels, it’s rather hostile towards Blacks, much like here. In terms of institutional racism in Germany, I really can’t speak to–I simply don’t know and it may be that Germany doesn’t even know since they do not keep a census. I don’t know what the poverty levels are like in Germany in general and if there are large proportions of Blacks in Germany are concentrated into segregated Black ghettos as here in the U.S., for example. There is much I cannot speak to on this end. Plus, I’ve never been to Germany–what I know is only through books/documentaries and knowledge from people who have either lived there or visited there.

        So it brings me to this point, and whether or not you agree doesn’t really matter to me, but what I had said in the past on this site is that the U.S. has failed to acknowledge it’s AI genocide and give an apology for slavery-it won’t do either. Further, because of the nation’s refusal to do so, it blocks the ability to bring forth discussions on reparations. In this way, Germany is more progressive in addressing racism than the U.S. because Germany has paid out reparations and has outlawed, at least antisemitism and racism…not to say that doesn’t still exist there. That’s something I wouldn’t question. My understanding, however, is that it has more laws in place to handle it than the U.S. Here in the U.S. there are neo-nazi groups that are protected by the government through “freedom of speech and expression”–I would put a link to the National Socialist Movement’s website, but you probably cannot see it in Germany because of the more progressive laws, in my own humble opinion, that are set place in Germany than we have in the U.S. Hate groups are protected in the U.S. for the most part and only recently in U.S. history has this nation began to recognize “hate crimes”, define them as such, and treat them as such in the legal system. But notice here, it reduce the issue to the individual level–those occasional coo coo folks who are way way out there and ignores the larger problem. But the hate groups in the U.S. serve to reinforce other types of racism that allow whites to deny they are racist or that racism still exists in this society because the hate groups are “the real racists”, etc. In short, racism in this society plays out in many many forms, and perhaps the most dangerous is the denial that it exists and/or that it is harmful for groups of color any longer, etc., which of course ties into the idea that everybody in the U.S. is on an equal playing field, etc.

        So when I speak of racism, it’s most often not at the individual level, but rather the institutional and systemic levels. They are entirely different levels of analyses and if confused, people cannot communicate on the same page–unless one is sharing their experiences within level of analysis of which the discussion is speaking to and making that explicit. But drawing out an example from the level of analysis (which I have done a couple of times) is different from taking an example and applying it to the whole group–I don’t do the latter. Or try not to….

        On the comparisons between the U.S. and Germany–while qualitatively different, they are both nations responsible for incredible atrocities against human groups–Germany, even if by force from outside nations, has to some degree had to confront it. The U.S. has not, and refuses to. Germany does not have Hitler or his closest officials on their money for example. U.S. currency has slave owners and champions of AI genocide through it’s westward expansion in the U.S. Germany educates and remembers, at least Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, whereas the U.S. glorifies their history of slavery and genocide. But, it may be the case that like the hate groups here, where white America says, “see, ‘THEY’ are the ‘real’ racists! Not I!! I don’t wear a sheet or swastika!!!!”, Nazi Germany and the Holocaust may have the same effect on white German society where they perceive and measure all racism to the extremes, which serves to suggest they then, are not racist or play any role in racism because the “real racists” are, Nazis under Hitler’s regime, etc. And when they do engage in individual level acts of discrimination, etc., or even larger, they still don’t perceive it as racist because it is measured against Hitler’s Germany….

        But there are many many examples. Let me leave one more comparison I’m aware of–Germany still has the concentration camps preserved–not for glorification of their fairy tale history from a white supremacist framework, but to remember so it will never happen again…hopefully it will never happen again to any group anywhere. But the U.S. has slave plantations preserved for some white supremacist bizarre nostalgic memory–maybe something in the so-called “romantic novel” or movie, “Gone with the Wind.” Throughout the nation are statues of slave owners and Indian slayers. It’s different.

        So in closing, I think it is a mistake to suggest that racism in the U.S. or Germany is worse than the other. But I do think, again, be it through force from outside nations, Germany has come a bit further in dealing with racism than the U.S. That is not speaking to racism at the individual levels, nor does it speak to institutional racism that may exist in Germany. I hope that makes sense. And regardless if you agree or disagree, am very glad you’re here on the site participating in the blogs–you have much to add and it’s always great to get insights and perspectives from people who live in places outside the U.S.

        Happy holidays to you and have a great 2012

        • Cath

          Hi Seattle

          I can see where you are coming from, and it is true that Germany is probably a lot more aware of the injust things they did than Americans.

          For example there is a law that penalizes Holocaust denial ect. Also you mentioned the concentration camps which are preserved as a warning and to remember the victims of World War II. That is indeed very true, but…Be careful with the idea that these institutionalized mechanisms reflect the spirit of the population. As you may know Germany is a very formalized country, and the difference between what is institutionalized and what is reality is probably 100 times bigger than in the US.

          Have you heard of the latest scandal?

          A group of right wing nazis has killed a couple turkish and one greek shop owner over a whole decade.

          http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,798450,00.html

          You eally should read that article, it brings it to the point. They called that murder series “doner killing” in the German news. In case you don’t know, Doner is a traditional Turkish dish. That is the kind of racism I’m talking about. People are constantly stigmatized and disrespected in Germany, as we now know even after their death.

          I agree with you: yes they are more aware of their own mistakes than Americans in an instutionalized sense. But on a daily basis I think racism is a lot more accepted than in the US. Always in a joky way of course…

          And I’m not comparing the German countryside to New York. I’ve lived in Berlin and London and I’ve been to the US a lot of times. You are not going to see a person of african or turkish origin in a position of power, unless they are doctors.

          It is indeed different for Asian people and obviously other Europeans. And if you are an African American you will not have many problems because Americans are always welcome for obvious reasons.

          So in my opinion there are different forms of racism, there is racism which is accepted and racism which is not accepted. Racism again jews- nope. Racism against muslims and blacks – totally accptable.

          Believe me when I say that the same people that go to concentration camps and make a sad face would not hesitate to make a nasty joke about black people’s features. I’ve spent my whole life around them dealing with their shit. And you know what their excuse is: we’ve had enough of all that PC stuff!

          Meaning that their are tired of visiting concentration camps and being constantly reminded of their mistakes. To me it means they need a chargeback. And because they can’t pick on that one group their erased from their map, they pick on others now – always in a joky way of course.

          I hope that makes sense.

          • Cath

            Here’s another link of a party called Nationaldemocrats:

            http://www.npd.de/

            You should type in NPD and go on image search. These guys are not in the national parliament, but in several state parliaments in the former Eastern part, including Berlin.

            It is proven that they were connected to the murderes I told you about in my precedent article.

            They don’t make it as obvious as Neonazis in the States. But it is well known that they are the direct decendants of the NSDAP (Nazi party during World War II). The government of Germany has tried to prohibit that party twice – with no success because it came out that a lot of them actually were spies of the German Secret Service.

            I really don’t know what is actually wrong with this country – it looks like they just don’t want to learn.

            To me it’s a very unpleasant and very dangerous place, and my mental health has clearly suffered from growing up here

          • cordoba blue

            It makes sense to me Cath! Thanks very much for setting the record straight. Many commentators on here have never traveled outside the United States. Thus, it’s easier for them to just vilify America rather than admit racism exists all over the world.This is extremely naive, but they are merely speaking from a rather provincial background unfortunately.
            Many people from other countries, especially Asians in America for example, have NO HESITATION about making extremely racist comments about African Americans. They don’t care one tiny bit if they “raise their children to be racists”. I am an ESL tutor and with some families I tutor in their home. I heard one Asian woman tell her children, with total nonchalance, “If a black man or woman rings the doorbell, don’t open it ever!” And that’s it! Like African Americans are some kind of horrible mystical beings who you should avoid at all costs.
            However, within the school system the children, during February, which is Black History Month in America, learn everything about Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights Movement. They can quote all kinds of anti-racist facts etc but when push comes to shove, at least in Asian homes, it’s “Don’t answer the door!”
            America really does practice racism in a much more subtle way than in the Jim Crow era. No, we don’t have separate drinking fountains and restaurants for whites and blacks. But, it’s harder for a qualified black person to get a bank loan than a white person. All things being equal, from what I’ve observed, white people are hired before African Americans. Plus, teachers tend to place black students in school tracking groups that veer them toward high school graduation rather than college prep. I could give you many other examples.
            The point is that this racism, unfortunately has existed for a very long time, in various forms all over the world. It’s childish to say “It all started in America. And while Europe (‘glorious Europe..so much more tolerant than America’ lol) has truly knelt in remorse regarding their racism, America does not acknowledge it”. America has a long way to go, but it is not worse in any way, shape or form than Europe, and certainly not worse than the highly ethnocentric Germans.
            In my opinion, Germans were very ripe for Nazism because the German people have been extremely nationalistic and “so proud of their Aryan heritage” for centuries. It’s disgusting really. They won’t even acknowledge today that if it weren’t for fear of America, the Soviet Union would have swallowed them whole, instead of dividing the country into East and West Germany.
            Russia was certainly not afraid of Germany, after WWII, since Germany was in ruins, thank goodness! But the Soviets hesitated to confront the United States, so they just took half of Germany.But to talk to Germans, you would think the Russians (and the entire rest of the world..lol!) was shaking in their boots, even after the WAR, about the might of the Invincible Germans. It’s comical really. They are in such denial about so many things! You’d think they’d be ashamed, to say the least, about beating their chests with pride, after all the millions and millions of deaths they caused in both WWI and WWII they created.
            They still boast about what competent engineers and mechanics they are. Like it’s “in their blood” or something. I did notice their engineers did come up with a very efficient way to kill Jews with the pesticide gas chambers and then the huge crematoriums.By the way (at Seattle) the biggest Holocaust Museum in the world is in America, NOT Germany!
            The Germans also, ever the meticulous and “efficient” people they are, stuffed mattresses with human hair and made lamp shades from human skin. it’s ludicrous that some people on this site hold Germans, of all people, up as sterling examples of humanitarians!
            Anyway, thank you, because an honest European perspective on racism is needed here. Please keep contributing. Any thoughts on racism in the United Kingdom? I’ve been to London twice, but am scheduled for a tour of England and Scotland in March. Will “report back” about what I observe regarding racism there. Anyway,if you have any time, what are your thoughts on the UK? :)

          • Cath

            Hey Cordoba blue

            Well I noticed that a lot of people from Asia, especially Chinese people are very racist. I agree with that.

            Concerning the UK… You won’t hear any racist remarks against black or asian people By the way when they say asian the also include indians and people from pakistan.

            The UK: well that’s a very interesting question. First of all I think the UK is what you can call the only country in EU where PC actually exists. Not because they are so nice and lovely but because they have to deal with that huge amount of people from the Commonwealth countries.

            You will not hear any racist remarks from white people unless they are drunk football fans, I can almost guarantee you that. Like in the States, the white people in the UK learned how to hide their racism, unlike Germans who only hide it when it comes to Jews.

            However to me the UK is a bit weird, especially outside London. I love London and I met the greatest people there, black, white, asian whatsoever.

            But the British society is very aggressive in general. There is no doubt they have a very racist history, and when you see them in the Pub you can imagine them inavding all these countries. I’m not being sarcastic here, but you really should go to a pub in England and observe them. I personally always felt safer in the alleged dangerous black neighbourhoods. It was dodgy, but at least everyone was sober or on weed, but not as drunk.

            Anyways, as I said, there is no open racism, but you will hear a lot of jokes about Australians, French, Germans. British people don;t show any emotions, but you can feel the aggression underneath their jokes, and I always had the feeling they need these jokes about EU and AUS people as a subsitute for racism towars blacks and Indians. Simliar to what I described about Germans.

            And I sometimes felt like telling them they are not that much better than Germans from an historial point of view.

            They never paid for what they did to other countries, but let’s be honest:

            Do you really think Germany would have such a bad reputation if they had killed black people or any people of color rather than Jews? Do you think anyone would punish them they way they are being punished if they had attacked an African country and not France and the UK and pretty much every other EU country?

            That is exactly the reason everyone points at them. And as I said, I really don’t like living here, but I don’t think a country like the UK is in the position to make judgments. There are apparently populations in the world that never make war such as the Mosuo in the south of China. If they point at Germany ok, but please, not the Brits…

            Which brings me to the next point. Holocaust museums. Of course we need that, and I’ve been to the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. If I remember right there is also a museum of Native american history on the Museum Mall (That’s how it’s called right?). But if I remember right they don’t mention the genozide towards the ntaive americans at all. I heard they were not allowed to do so and that the only way to mention it because it is clearly a part of America’s history is to put guns in between the pictures and the pieces of art.

            Also I remember that there is a museum of African American history in DC but it is not where the other museums are, but in some african american district noone shoudl go to. (I’ve seen some places in DC, I couldn’t believe my eyes. Such poverty, it’s almost as bad as in Mali!)

            Anyways, I’m getting lost here. What I actually wanted to say: the Eneglish speaking world is very motivated when it comes to Holocaust museums and pointing out what Germany did. Which is correct because it needs to be remembered. But why does Washington DC need a Holocaust museum in downtown more than a museum of African American history?

            I have the feeling that it’s very easy for white English and American people to point at Germans rather than thinking about what they did.

            And I personally think the reason is what I mentioned in the very beginning: they had the nerve to kill a group of white people and to attack EU countries. So the fact this is remembered so much all the time is racist in itself, considering the fact that a genozide towards blacks, natives etc. is pretty much ignored, in the UK maybe more than in the US.

            That’s what I tried to explain to white people in the UK, but to them that is a different ballgame.

            One Brit said to me: well at least the Indians have a railway now.

            Well, phantastic!

        • cordoba blue

          @ Seattle who said: “Germany is more progressive in addressing racism than the U.S. because Germany has paid out reparations.”
          Really? Could you provide this link? Because digging a few pieces of expensive art work out of Swiss banks, that were stolen from Jewish homes before WWII, and donating these to Israel does not constitute “reparations”.
          The fact is, any Jewish people who were still able to travel, left Germany for Israel or the United States after the war. They didn’t stick around long enough to find out what the Germans would do next. Why would they?
          I know absolutely no social monetary mass programs or attempt by the Germans that could compensate 6 million Jews for the deaths of their family members. If you had to guess, Seattle, could you please explain the “cost” of losing one’s father? Just one man. What would be sufficient compensation?
          Germany did not have enough money, and still doesn’t, to pay reparations to the broken lives of the Jews that still remained in Europe after the Holocaust. Remember, Hitler’s whole agenda was to exterminate “every single Jew” in Europe.
          We also have a Black Caucus in Washington, DC. Is there a Jewish Caucus in Berlin? Please provide the link. If I had to guess, African Americans, as a cohesive group,along with the liberal white left, have much more power in the United States than the Jews now do in Germany.
          I’m not commending America for how we have NOT, to my satisfaction, dealt with racism. I am simply saying that African Americans have chosen to stay in America and form a united front against racism. While in Germany, the Jews just left because they KNEW in their hearts there was no compromising with the German mind-set. And, once again, America is one of the few countries in which they felt safe.
          Further regarding “compensations”, which program in Germany mandated hiring Jewish people along with blue-eyed blonde Aryans after the war? Was it the Bavarian Forest Affirmative Action Association? An update: there is no Bavarian Forest Affirmative Action Association. Links would be appreciated Seattle. Thank you for reading this. And have a safe and peaceful 2012. :)

          • Cath

            http://www.jmberlin.de/main/EN/homepage-EN.php

            Well Cordoba, I agree with Seattle, it’s not correct to say one form of racism is better than the other and we did this and that, but the Germans were worse.

            The few jews that were left in Germany after WW II were more than welcome in the States and obviously Israel was founded. And believe it or not, there is still a jewish community in Germany.

            You say African Americans decided to stay. Where were they supposed to go to? Did they get their own state? Was there a country that wanted them? And that’s not even important. It’s about respect, and not admitting that certain groups have other needs than the majority is just disrespectful

  47. blackman12

    It seems to me the author has an unconscious desire or maybe conscious desire to date white men. Who cares if white men find black women attractive? Black women should focus on their relationships with their black male counterparts.

      • brenda53

        First, I have nothing against interracial dating…who’s to say the one you fall in love with will be of your ethnic group; HOWEVER, there is absolutely nothing wrong about being attracted to one of your own…it just means you LOVE YOURSELF as well! But to the Black Women, do not sweat the Black Men who prefers those of a different group, it just simply means he has a more deeply rooted problem than you will ever be able to fix..NOT because he’s attracted to them, but MORESO because he doesn’t find himself attractive which sounds like a self-esteem issue! Just like other ethnic groups…he should have respect and love for self FIRST!

    • blackman12

      A woman can attract a man by doing certain things. The issue of whether or how frequently black men date outside of their race is irrelevant. There are plenty of black men who date black women. Focus on them!!!!

      • lmfort

        True. Most people prefer to date within their race. But there is diffidently a shortage of black men, particularly “marriageable” black men. Where are all these eligible black men coming from??

        • cordoba blue

          If black men can get it together to marry outside their race, why can’t they consider re-thinking their psychology and marry within their race?
          There’s nothing a non-black woman has to offer that an African American woman doesn’t have. And this doesn’t have anything to do with white men keeping them from making a living. If they can afford conspicuous consumption (cars, jewelry, electronics and the cost of dating other women) they can afford to marry and take care of their children.
          It’s just too burdensome I guess, to be strapped down to a wife and child. If this is the case,then we are all “burdened”, every race.

          • lmfort

            I was actually referring to the black prison population, which is 39.4% African American. That’s what I mean by the shortage of available black men. However, I do agree that African American men should reconsider a lot of their priorities. That’s not to say that there aren’t black men willing or able to take care of their families. I don’t believe that black men feel as though taking care of a family is “burdensome”. Especially taking into consideration that men have ALWAYS had the responsibility of taking care of their wives and families. In particularly, in many West African societies polygamy was very common. These black men had absolutely no problem with taking care of several wives and children. African Americans have always struggled with taking care of the family within a racist capitalist society. What defines a man in our society? Someone who can “afford” or can provide FINANCIALLY for their families. Based on a lot of my readings, African American women were often encouraged more to attend college to escape becoming a mammy (cook, housemaid, or nanny) to a white family where they were often physically, emotionally or sexually abused. Of course in our society education and especially a higher education is often associated with a higher income. Even without a higher income, it was always easy or easier for black women to find permanent work then black men. There is always room for service jobs. Our service jobs are often gendered and in a lot of cases racial as well. Take for instance cleaning ads on T.V., they ALWAYS advertise women, either a wife and/or mother. But when race and gender intersect, in this particular instance we are discussing black women, children and husbands are barely seen. The Pinesol Lady, Popeyes Chicken Lady, Honey Bunches of Oats Lady, Aunt Jemima. Our society loves the image of a black woman serving. So, if black men, who often times show resentment towards black women for being “too strong” or the “men” in the relationships believe in the Moynihan Report, which came up with the idea that black men are abandoning their families because black women are emasculating them, they may internalize the false idea that black women as emasculating.
            Because black men’s masculinity, when compared to black women’s femininity, has been so misconstrued that they formed their own ideas of masculinity. Take into consideration the hiphop culture. Masculinity is expressed as having a lot of money, big cars, expensive jewelry, electronics and a lot of women. Being strapped down to a wife and child(ren) is a lifestyle that many black men cannot afford (because black women have jobs are higher forms of education and can “compete” with black men in the mainstreams idea of “masculinity”.

            Commenting on your first sentence about black men “getting it together” to date outside of their race. According to a study that I read, black men who marry outside of their race tend to be “successful” meaning that they obtain jobs that offers enough financial stability to take care of a family. I hear black men who marry interracially constantly referring to black women’s attitudes and mannerisms.
            For example, on the Real Housewives of Atlanta, a cast member, Sheree, was dating a (fake) doctor who was hosting a seminar, “How Black Women Can Get and Keep A Successful Black Man”. It amazed me that black women actually attended this seminar with NOTEPADs!! The doctor invites Sheree on stage to “teach” her mannerisms that successful black men supposedly prefer. He asked her something like, “If you’re out on a date and the man asks you if you would like him to open your ketchup bottle, hat do you say?” Sheree answer went something like, “No. Its okay I’ll open it for myself”. The doctor said that was the wrong answer and that she should let the man open the bottle.
            Black women are often taught since childhood to never depend on anyone, though we often depend on our sisterhoods or each other. Apparently, the (fake) doctor suggests for black women to (pretend) to be more dependent on their men or in particular their “successful” black men.

    • EveAll

      Based upon the article, black men (like white men) may find black women quite unattractive as well? Are there studies as to this? I am a young white attorney from an educated liberal family. I am a registered democrat. I live ouside Wash D.C. My father and grandfather are doctors, my mother, has a masters degree and so on. I have some male black aquaintances. I dont feel racist, I am for equality of races, etc., I like blacks. However, I find most black women quite unattractive – unless they have caucasian features – but even then, not really.

    • brenda53

      Just find someone who makes you happy! Race shouldn’t be an issue. BUT if you do happen to have a relationship outside of your own, my advice to all would be, don’t change who you are as a person. I’ve dated outside my own race and have had good times…men are men. But I haven’t met anyone, black or white, that I would compromise who I am just to be with him. That demonstrates desparation, and that’s not attractive on anyone!

  48. cordoba blue

    I read this in an Ebony Magazine article in reaction to the fact that Wesley Snipes now dates non-black women. Snipes feels more comfortable with non-black women because they aren’t, in a word, as stressed as black women. I wonder why. It’s because it’s stressful being black! Black women are up against the society they live in, plus the expectations (or at least illusion) of submissiveness that many men expect from female partners. Here’s the excerpt. I thought it was very revealing:

    One of the main reasons that black women have often reacted with such knee-jerk resentment to black men dating outside their race is precisely because, too often, black men’s preference for non-black women is expressed in terms of such women possessing a “lightness” and “ease” that black women do not—a lightness that, to the extent it exists, comes at least in part from not having the same kind of struggles with our society that black men try to escape by pursuing non-black women, and, of course, from having a level of support as women from their men that black women have not enjoyed.
    To be rejected not only because you bring the same involuntarily shouldered burdens to the relationship as the man, but also the additional burdens of his neglect, hostility and exploitation, has often been too much for black women to bear.

    As Halima’s concept of racio-misogyny articulates, for some black men, sexism against black women is not merely a function of gender but also of race—resentment is derived as much from black women’s nappy hair, dark skin, broad features, “lack of femininity,” the way in which her blackness precludes her from being the trophy that Wesley Snipes describes (“the guys are like, `Oh man, you’ve got a great women.’ And the man says, `Yeah, I do. ”)–as it is from her being a woman.
    His words here remind me of the scene in “Their Eyes Were Watching God” in which Tea Cake brags about the fair-skinned Janie’s susceptibility to bruising after a beating. Black equals strong, loud, unsusceptible to bruising–mule-like in toughness and resiliency.
    As Wesley Snipes notes, a man wants to be proud of his woman: he wants someone pleasing, someone compromising, someone compassionate—to him. But as Snipes acknowledges in passing, black women, who must cope with many of the same stresses as black men, plus others that black men don’t experience, may also want these some qualities in a mate. And while black women are constantly discouraged from being too black, too loud, too angry and too tough, these qualities are considered the sine qua non of black manhood in our society. When a black woman finds a man who is comfortable in his manhood without the barrier of this armor, is she expected not to find the experience as appealing as all the black men who have lauded the comparative “softness” of non-black women?

  49. cordoba blue

    Cath said: “Do you really think Germany would have such a bad reputation if they had killed black people or any people of color rather than Jews? Do you think anyone would punish them they way they are being punished if they had attacked an African country and not France and the UK and pretty much every other EU country?”
    No, I don’t think Germany would have been vilified as much if they had, especially, killed people from Africa. Black people seem to have historically gotten the worst of the racism All Across the Planet. This is very true. In the former Belgian Congo, the king of Belgium inflicted terrible atrocities on the Africans to extract rubber from the rain forests, and there’s a museum in Belgium today (saw it on Youtube) that very much minimizes this cruelty!
    Also, regarding the Holocaust Museum in DC, yes you are correct.It’s in a much nicer area than the African American History Museum.
    But I do take issue with Seattle telling you America glorifies slavery? Is this why we tell children story after story about Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad, have an entire month devoted to Black History, Rosa Parks, the Civil Rights Movement, Brown vs Board of Education etc?
    Nobody but an extremist would claim that we did not commit genocide. So, please don’t think America is (proud?) of how white settlers treated African Americans. I think most Americans feel very guilty and totally support more American history from a Black and Native American perspective.
    I also think America, thanks to education, has realized the realities of the atrocities we commited against approximately 2 million Native Americans in the “New World”, who were welcoming to white settlers before whites started just claiming the land of indigenous people for themselves.
    Also, in regard to where are African Americans supposed to live, I meant Jewish people felt safe in America after the war.
    But, yes, you are totally correct in that the entire planet seems to, and this is painful for me to say because it’s so tragic, have a bias against people with black skin. Even today, Africa is generally ignored by the media compared to the coverage it gives other countries. I noticed this a long time ago.
    There was some flood in Africa (must have been 30 years ago) and about 5,000 people were killed. It was on the 4th page of the newspaper! What is more telling than this? I actually brought this newspaper to school to show my journalism teacher.
    Can you even imagine the world-wide coverage if 5,000 people of European descent died? There would be memorial after memorial. Every facet of the tragedy would be analyzed again and again. The relatives of the victims interviewed endlessly. Books published from “various perspectives” of the horrific event. So yes, I know what you’re saying.
    Africa is not given the dignity an entire continent deserves. I mean, we are talking An Entire Continent here.
    I saw the movie The Constant Gardner and it was very revealing about the white attitude toward Africa. The main character, Ralph Fienne tries to help a little black girl into a helicopter. But the pilot says, “Leave her alone. That’s just the way things are in Africa. You can’t save them all.” It’s like the planet just “accepts” that’s the way things are? An African Holocaust happens every day. EVERY DAY, and we are afraid to look.
    Again, enjoy the new year! Thank you for responding Cath. Please keep commenting. Your articles are very informative. :)

  50. cordoba blue

    Imfort stated: What defines a man in our society? Someone who can “afford” or can provide FINANCIALLY for their families.
    Then Imfort states further in the post:”Because black men’s masculinity, when compared to black women’s femininity, has been so misconstrued that they formed their own ideas of masculinity. Take into consideration the hiphop culture. Masculinity is expressed as having a lot of money, big cars, expensive jewelry, electronics and a lot of women. Being strapped down to a wife and child(ren) is a lifestyle that many black men cannot afford.”
    Well, which is it? I do NOT understand how a black man, who has consciously decided to interpret masculinity as having material possessions and sexy women cannot “afford” to take care of his girlfriend and children. I do understand that black men have had their masculinity stripped from them by whites. I do understand that for some relief and psychological salvation black men have had to form their own idealogy of what it means to be a man.
    However, I still don’t beleive that even high school drop-outs don’t have choices. If a black man can afford cospicuous consumption (cars, jewelry, women) are you saying in the same breath, “Oh, but they can’t afford to take care of a family though.” That doesn’t make sense.
    And it is part of the reason (not all by any means) that poor black men STAY within the poverty/crime/ absentee father pipeline. Your choices are your destiny. You always have SOME choices. Taking into account racism, poor black men STILL have choices. They can look and observe the suffering of their fatherless children and single former girlfriends, can they not?
    Here’s the crux of the situation: if they are astute and sensitive enough to feel racism, then are you saying they are NOT astute and sensitive enough to witness the suffering of their own family? It just doesn’t add up. It’s an excuse, pure and simple. It’s a free pass to No Responsibility-Vill.
    How many middle class BLACK and WHITE men don’t have fantasies about shucking the whole mortgage payments, family car payments, medical insurance and on and on to just say,”The Hell! I’m gonna get a sex machine woman, buy a caddie and wear $800 outfits and just have fun! Yeah!”
    Nobody is buying this. Not black middle class men, certainly not the white liberal left who really does care about racism and giving black people an even playing field. It just doesn’t look right! No amount of psychological or sociological “studies” or academic jargon or convoluted, “but there’s a reason for all this” can delete from America’s mind the image of a black man dressed like a rock star with a woman wearing a Size DD bra, who when asked about his family says,”Who?”
    In summation, if men can get away with having sex without taking any responsibility for the outcome they will, any man!But to be a responsible, future-thinking person means putting aside selfish needs and valuing the beauty of having a family who loves you, over being the king pin at the local hip hop club while you “the man”.
    This being “the man” meme is temporary at best. Plus, where is all this money coming from? High school drop out, no job skills, but $3,000 watches? I wonder if it’s selling drugs. Yeah, it’s selling drugs,,, which equals the infamous pipeline. In 5 years, “the man” will be in the state pen. So it’s a childlike fantasy that leads nowhere. It is not a solution to racism, nor will it aid blacks in working hand in hand with the liberal white left.
    Social programs paid for by the STATE to give poor black adolescents an opportunity to see there is another Alternative to simulating wealthy rap stars with gold chains meme are needed.This is not an appropriate role model.
    Better schools in poor black neighborhoods. Social workers. Community centers. Big Brother programs. Affirmative Action (bring it back!). That would break the pipeline. And it’s killing our society if this pipeline remains intact.

    • lmfort

      Also, many whites DO have women (as if women are commodities??), expensive clothes, cars and other things. They just know to hide it and can afford that lifestyle private while keeping their home lifestyle public. The hip hop culture is all about being bold and in your face. They just make what rich whites (or just the rich) make private public. Ask Tiger Woods.

      • cordoba blue

        Tiger Woods is one more example of a black man marrying a white “trophy wife” once he reached the 20-Million-Club.Plus, I don’t think it’s right that he does not identify himself as African American. His father is African American and his mother is Asian. He should be proud to be of African descent.
        This all relates to my support of Pan-Africanism which incorporates pride in being of African descent and visualizing all descendents PLUS people now living in Africa as one and the same: a separate country living in different parts of the world. Africans very much need to band together and form a united front to the rest of the world’s racism because black Africans have been the recipients of more bias and racism than any other ethnic group historically, as far as I’ve read.
        I am not suggesting that African Americans “conform” to some white idealogy of what it means to be a man.I don’t think the “white way” is the only way. That’s a narrow-minded uneducated way to view the world. That is not my ultimate intent.Why my comments are interpreted like this is puzzling to me. Plus, supporting your family and community is a pretty universal mode of living. It’s certainly not limited to white Europeans, is it? I mean, this is nothing new from Hong Kong to Cambodia to New Zealand to Brazil.
        My intention was to suggest that the black community think of themselves (and support their relatives) as one unit, separate from whites in a potentially dangerous hostile environment. If they don’t support each other(and men abandoning their families is one stark example for whatever reason) and take responsibility for each other, they are divided in more ways than one. And this is not a good thing when you are an oppressed race. The Jewish people when they immigrated to America bonded together as one. They supported each others’ businesses, schools, social groups. Safety in unity. This philosophy also worked for the Asian community and many other ethnic groups actually. I realize EVERYTHING is harder for African Americans because of the virulent racism they’ve been subjected to and still are, but it’s a good tactic. Worked for other groups, why can’t it work for Africans.
        It’s well-known that most black crime is committed against other blacks. Why? This is not a good think. Support your community and you will see some positive changes fairly quickly. Strength in numbers. I don’t see how anybody can argue with that.

        • lmfort

          My goodness. This is one of the reasons why chatting with someone, or attempting a conversation with someone on the internet is difficult. I feel as though what I am trying to say is not how you’re reading it. And may be its vise versa. Anyway, OBVIOUSLY I am aware that Tiger Woods, a black looking biracial man, has (or had?) a white trophy wife. I was giving an example of how the rich, who supposedly take care of their families (from your first reply) can also neglect the family in other ways than financially and still have the women, expensive clothes and all the other materialistic things that hip hop culture exploits as “masculinity”.
          Personally, from what I’ve read about Tiger Woods and a couple of his interviews, he claims and acknowledges ALL of his “racial make-up”. From my own interactions with bi-racials, particularly being black and white or black and another race, many bi-racials claim both of their races because it would be disrespectful to not acknowledge another part of themselves. I don’t think Tiger is wrong for acknowledging his racial make-up. But why HE is doing it. . .I dunno
          I am extremely PRO-BLACK as well, meaning that I support Pan Africanism. I also agree that African Americans, and other Africans and African descendants should come together and take care of one another businesses, create schools that WE run where the curriculum isn’t based off of a Eurocentric pedagogy and so on and so forth.
          I never suggested that you thought the “white way” is the only or right way. Obviously, supporting your family is a universal. What made you think that I excluded African American men from this responsibility??
          I’ve re-read your original comment and no where did it suggest that you supported Pan-Africanism. It was more of a “well is black men can afford to do these things then they should be able to afford to do this” type of argument which, as I’ve stated earlier, was taken completely out of context. I was discussing the African American male/female relationship and the “battle of the sexes” kind of thing that goes on within the black community. I originally commented stating that there weren’t a lot of marriageable black men for black women to marry (referring to the black male population in prison and the extreme high school drop out rate of African American males). You commented on black men “getting it together” to date interracial and suggesting that they can do the same to marry within their race instead of buying expensive cars, clothes, e.t.c. I then go into discussing how hip hop culture could help influence another ideology of masculinity, refocusing priorities to consumerism, hyper-masculinity and womanizing.
          Here, I wasn’t disagreeing AT ALL with you. But I was trying to describe a possible reason why black men may or may SEEM to put materialism as a priority instead of the family. I was describing that this is a type of manhood or “masculinity” that is easier to achieve, or APPEAR to achieve.
          Then you go in to suggestions that I agree with, mentoring programs, Affirmative Action and so on.

          I think we agree on the Pan Africanism. Sometimes it can be a little difficult online to fully explain yourself. I think we’re both debating but we’re debating agreeing on the same issue.

  51. lmfort

    Firstly, I agree that there should be better schools in poor black neighborhoods, more community centers, mentor programs, e.t.c to guide African Americans to make the right decision as far as life choices go.
    Secondly, my explanation of the materialistic hip hop culture and black men’s responsibility was not meant to say that all black men can afford these fancy cars, the women, outfits and so on. But to describe how black men may reject mainstream “image” of what a “real man” is supposed to be because socially and economically, they are unable to fit that standard. That is not to say that black men ignore or reject their families. That is not to say that all black men who drop out of high school and gain some type of financial security are drug dealers. Black men are constantly looking for ways to provide. Again, I lean towards hip hop. Many of these songs reflect committing illegal crimes or “hustling” to provide for their families in a racist system that targets them and often times sets them up for failure.

    Ultimately, you COMPLETELY took and used my words out of context. I was trying to explain to you the imbalance of mainstream ideals and standards masculinity and femininity in the African American community and its affects.

  52. Mark Faust

    The political correctness in this article is pathetic. Yeah I guess its just good old “Racist Ignorance” right? I’m sure it has nothing to do with the ill temper, loud mouth, rolls of fat, lack of proper English, litter of children, fake hair, extremely high rate of aids (over 20x more likely than white women) and unreasonable sense of entitlement that so many of them share. (rolls eyes)…. Give me a break.

    • REC

      Africans have over fifty countries. Africans have half of the worlds resources. Africans have the largest population that the world has ever seen. Africa has the greatest farmland the world has ever known, you can grow three crops a year there. Africans live in my races countries as a minority, while my race is a minority. There is not much more I can do for them except make one president.

  53. bambino33

    Now here is the difficulty posting as a white male conservative to an obviously left wing political blog. You can’t take data then assume the data comes to the conclusion you wish to interpret it as. Most of the hold up on white men/black woman I feel is the black woman’s loyalty to the black family unit. I think it has little to do with the white man’s hostility towards black woman. Although my first wife was a black woman over 25 years ago I find most black women want nothing to do with a white male. In fact most black woman are in competition with white females for the black males affections. Just last night I went out with a white female who expressed to me that she would go out with a black man and expressed why; she said the black man is more considerate towards women. That many prospective white male dates come off to forward when courting her for dates. Their language was completely out of line. Being a outsider to their dating experience who was I to doubt their conclusions? White men certainly are more direct in fact so more like a bull in a china shop. I feel though both males the white and the black are doing the same thing its just one is being more covert about their approach. I’ve also seen white woman on dating sites who yes prefer the black male go through a litany of requirements for the new black male prospect, usually they will start asking that white males don’t fill their mail box with hate mail for their taste in men. Then they will read the riot act to new black male seekers rattling off the same sterotypes many white men have towards black men. Does he have a job, is he on assistance, how many kids, etc. etc. etc. Basically they desire the player they want the man to be more “romantic” and “creative” with the female. I think many woman are discounting the physical aspects of their desire. Unfortunately most black women I feel just don’t get the hint or catch on to my desire for them. They are not as open to its feasibility, they are still smarting from the loss of some black males to white women. Most importantly what this story and all liberal based race stories leave out, they are racist themselves. It seems this prospective is never engaged, its almost as if black people in America can’t be racist. People many are and to the level of many whites. Eventually when the black female finally comes to the realization of the advantages of dating white men it won’t happen. White men have been marrying women of different races for decades asians, hispanics etc. The hold out the whole time has been black females. Its time they think of their future and not the black families future, its time they realize were all about to become a race of the past as mixed will become the new race.

    • ericaepps@msn.com

      Bambino, I agree. Black women are extremely loyal to black men and rarely get the same in return. There are alot of racist views among black women when it comes to white men. They refuse to even consider it. Its a shame because alot of us will end up alone because of being close minded. I say look for someone who makes you happy because love see’s no color!!!

  54. cordoba blue

    Hey Bambino! Golly. I didn’t realize that it was high time black women stopped being so silly as to actually consider their FAMILY’s future over and above simply having fun with “White Studs”. Are you serious? Too Funny!
    Why shouldn’t black women be defensive? I’m white by the way, and don’t even consider myself a left winger. I’m more of a moderate really.
    But since when did you good ole boys stop making jokes about brown sugar? I mean, you finished doin’ that yet? Really? You stopped? Because I didn’t get that memo Bambino.
    Here I was, silly me, just thought you white “data collecting guys” were just in it for the sex! How stupid of me! Well, now that you’ve explained it all to me, that “white men have been dating Asians and Hispanics for decades” (that long, really?)I guess I’ll just have to defer to you next time I have a question about inter-racial dating.
    If I may so, because I’m going to say so, Mr. B, your comment was the most inane thing I’ve ever read on this blog. I especially like the supreme logic of “eventually when the black female finally comes to the realization of the advantages of dating white men it won’t happen”. HUH? Why won’t it happen? You guys intending to colonize Mars in the near future? Like the clock is ticking on the time you have left on Earth, so black women can experience the sheer joy of dating you? That doesn’t make any sense! Why is there a time limit at all?
    Sigh. Please try an entirely new experience for yourself, Bambino. Let’s attempt writing comments when we have our thinking caps on (as your Kindergarten teacher always recommended!) Because, you just don’t strike me as very bright. Leftie or Rightie. But thanks for the entertainment value! The thorough lack of logic was hilarious!

  55. I think my question would have to be for whoever conducted this interviews ,( I guess 2 only). Or wrote this report or statistics. I’m assuming is Brittany. Are you a black woman? How many white men did you interview? Because it seems to me that No. 1 the “men” being interviewd are racists anyway and No. 2 I believe that the statistics are quite wrong! I have many friends and family (sister, cousins) who are biracial and black women who date and marry or have romantic relationships with ONLY white men. I go out everyday to work in the city and I see, at least 1 couple who are black woman/white man. So to say that white men are hostile to black women it’s a bit of an exageration.

  56. CandiNaomi

    How amazed I am at this conversation. I have read many stats and opinions about black women/white men vs. society’s view. First, let me help all to get a firm understanding of why I think the way I do. I am a 25 year old black female. My parents raised me to not be impartial to any persons. I never felt the effects of racism until I entered into Chicago’s corporate atmosphere. Before than, I have always loved the idea of interracial relationships, no matter how it was blended.

    Here is where the problem lies. Our history has been altered, and sometimes simply not acknowledged. We are still coming to terms with our african american roots in many aspects. On the other hand the things we have learned, we have not learned from, for example black society glorifying the N word, or showing how they lack respect for black woman i.e. Chris Brown. Then, we as a race demand respect from all other ethnic counterparts. Does that really make sense?

    Black and white racism and bigotry is in the world, obviously, but who is really trying to stop the ignorance? I have read all the previous opinions and for the ones mentioning how loud, fat, and BLACK, black women are, how many black woman you know that are educated and well put together? For you black men, how many have dated women who were, women of worth and didn’t matter what race they were?

    I have to agree that black women are not treated well by men in general whether white, black, or any other ethnicity. Unfortunately, alot of black women don’t carry themselves as ladies, but once again expect to be treated as one. What really gets to me is this, granted there is a shortage of respect all around, when a man (white or black) comes across a good, respectful, smart, classy woman they don’t focus their efforts and attention on embracing that black woman. For the black man, there is a sense of jealousy on their manhood, instead of just being proud of her. For the white man, whether it is in the forefront or not they feel she needs to be put in her “black place”.

    The statistics and numbers are true. Black women are the under dogs. We have the highest rates in single mother homes. We were made into sex objects and maids for most of our history. Now we are in a point in time where we are degrading ourselves and being degraded by others. I myself was once married to a white man, and he abandoned me pregnant. His final words to me was I was meant to be a single mother. I also, found myself in relationships with silent bigots and realized I was never going to be equal to there real white family members. When it came to black men, well I was viewed as a traitor and a white man’s whore.

    If I recall, when I was younger I was harassed more by blacks for speaking “white” and naturally having long hair. As I got older I realized other races wanted me to be a typical oversexed black female. I would love to one day raise my biracial children in a world that it doesn’t matter what color they mother is, we are just loving proud family.

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