I did go and look at the United States Department of Labor statistics, and I was unable to find the data for 2009 that the article mentioned. The site seemed to indicate that data was to be released in a day or so. However, I was able to examine data from previous years, and there is clearly a higher rate of unemployment for college educated blacks. And, it is roughly consistent for all educations levels, suggesting strongly that it is not linked to choices in major. It very likely is exactly what it is purported to be, racism. With the available information, I could see no other reason for the disparity.

Now, illusions and marandaNJ, I’m through. I got (American) football and chicken fried rice to do. Next time, if there is one, lets deal with facts and not suppositions. Lets keep the entire context in mind.

I dont do that. You do. I make it very clear that I do not believe all blacks undervalue education. I think it is a meme that passes among the poor often. I do not think poor families do “all they can,” I grew up VERY poor, and in poor homes that were headed by both whites and PoC. Not to mention the people in the neighborhoods surrounding me were also poor. It was a rare family that sat down with their children and helped them with homework on a daily basis. Or who took them to the library, which is free. Or who read to their children nightly, or gave incentives to their children for reading as opposed to watching TV with them. In the upper and middles classes, those behaviors are more common. There are obstacles to getting a good education in the US that are classist. (And racist) You are absolutely right that the qualities of teachers and equipment, etc., is poorer for poor children. But that does not change the fact that the families themselves are not doing all THEY can. My poor Japanese friends were pushed. Parents gave up all personal luxuries to ensure their kids got any possible edge. The temples often held “Japanese school” that many of my friends had to go to after regular school to teach them language and instill cultural values in them. In many poor families of other ethnicities I knew, including white ones, the parents often had as many toys as the kids did, and it wasnt all sacrifice for the younger generation. Very few poor Americans feel that they can live without cable TV and cell phones, when giving up those items might give allow them to invest more in their children both in terms of time, and money. Not to mention if the media is a way that people are indoctrinated into racism it might protect them to limit their exposure. No. Poor people in general do NOT do everything they reasonably can to ensure their children do better than they. Many of them have been conditioned by the system to feel that they are helpless, ineffectual, and there is no point in trying. If someone else doesnt come in and intervene, nothing can change. Obama pointing that out is not being a racist, or sucking up to whites. He is simply pointing out that they should do all THEY can do, rather than just waiting for everyone else to change. You cant make anyone else change. You can make yourself change.

And, I notice that while you are all in a fuss about the lower class name issue, you are missing one thing. You yourself admit that the names in question are not usually selected by middle and upper class blacks. Why isnt it racist to say that lower class black names represent “black names” in general? Why isnt that stereotyping, to suggest that black women are Lakisha’s and not Annes?

“In fact, when black slaves and white indentured servants began working to closely together; or when black and white sharecroppers began protesting together; the rich would use race to tear the two groups apart. The difference is poor whites at least got to be white. ”

You are right, and they still are. Nothing has changed because we are so petty and stupid that we fall for the same divide and conquer strategy over and over again. You say “the whites got to be white.” And? What does that mean? They got to be crapped on while holding onto some internal feeling that even though their life sucked, they were somehow better than the blacks. What did the blacks get? They got to be crapped on while holding onto some internal feeling that they were somehow (morally) superior to whites. Big difference there, No1. Seems to me they both got a whole lot of nothing.

One could argue that a great number of poor of all races in America devalue education. More poor than middle and upper classes? Though, what I’ve seen presently and historically is that poor people do as much as they can to get their kids good educations. So to attribute a phenomenom that’s happening to all black people on black people, or just a segmnet thereof, is unfounded.

For everything I’m attributing to racism, there’re studies and research to back me up. If you have questions, Fine. But really, white trash names? Lets say you conducted such a study and found disparities, what would that have to do with “black” names? Or the fact that white male convicts have the same or better chance of getting a job as a black man with no criminal record? You can raise a question here or there if that’s what you see fit to do, but you can’t question the totality of all the studies and research that indicates anti-black bias affecting everything from employment to health treatments. If poor white people are being discriminated against on the basis of their name, that’s wrong. But you’re talking about something that affects a segment of the white population vs something that affects all of the black population. And neither case has to take away from the other.

And yeah, “unless otherwise demonstrated,” I do assume a white person, as a white person, has racial bias. “Unless otherwise demonstrated” also means I look for clues. That you or marandaNJ think otherwise is a making of your own imaginations.

There’s no doubt that people in power exploit to some agree everyone. In fact, when black slaves and white indentured servants began working to closely together; or when black and white sharecroppers began protesting together; the rich would use race to tear the two groups apart. The difference is poor whites at least got to be white.

So what I’ll do is review how we got here, or least part of how we got here.

marandaNJ suggested that Obama was correct not to mention racism and that problems like unemployment were of black people’s on making because black people don’t value education enough.

I responded by saying she was wrong in that analysis. Perhaps, a nicer way to put it is that it’s untrue that black people don’t value education enough. That the problem is racism, for example, we see a great disparity in employment even amongst men with college degrees.

marandaNJ never responded to today’s unemployment numbers.

I suppose illusions was suggesting that maybe the issue was race but class to the extent “black” names set people apart. That still doesn’t explain the unemployment numbers we see among men with college degrees, right? Cause at the end of the day, racism or classism, discriminating against someone on the basis of their name is wrong, right? Certainly, it can’t be that black applicants aren’t doing their due diligence on the company’s culture. I mean, to a disparity of 4.4%:8.4%?

I never addressed other -isms, not because I don’t believe their important, but because when looking at the disparity of employment between college educated men, they’re really unimportant.

illusions, you haven’t presented any data suggesting more class bias; you’ve only question data showing racial bias.

marandaNJ, you haven’t sited anything hateful I’ve said about white people. What’s so hateful towards white people about rejecting the notion that the problem is that black people don’t value education? By blaming black people for the employment numbers, aren’t you blaming the victim? “Cycle back” and claim not to hate white people? When did I say I did?

Which does remind me, “White people as victims!” meme of mine? Do you mean because I mock the idea of white people as victims? White individuals can be victims, I don’t question that. But that it’s indicative of something approximating the widespread bias people of color face, yeah, that’s mockworthy.

1 – I didn’t say anything about the Irish suffering now. Nothing of the sort. AS I recall, we were talking about Ireland and not the Irish here. And what I said is that America has not more rights in Hawaii than England has in Ireland. Now, I may have said I don’t see what Ireland has to do with intra-national racism in the US. I still don’t. Anti-black racism in the US started with little consideration of Ireland in mind.

2 – In what ways have a suggested that racism is wrong unless it’s used to my benefit. I haven’t said anything like that. Not remotely close. That’s just what the two of you decide to think about what I say, first that I’m racist against white people, though I haven’t seen either of your produce evidence that I am. Then obviously that I’m okay with racism so long as it’s in my interests.

So I’ll be clear about my feelings on “racism” in the name of anti-racism. I’ll concede that yeah, groups that start off as anti-racism can become anti-white. I’m not aware of any, but sure, that’s possible. That said, if we’re going to correct centuries of prejudice and bias against black people in this case, it’s only logical that some actions benefit black people and black people alone. That’s not racism. Racism is based on the belief that one group is superior to another, not that one group has been oppressed by the other. I mean, if you broke your leg, would you demand that the doctor put your entire body in cast?

Now, yeah, you were pretty much doing what I suspected. You want to make sure we properly quantify racism. Like you said, you think it’s overstated. So obviously, you weren’t looking to quantify up. Most of the names you list as white trash names, I know black people with those names. They’re actually pretty mainstream as far as can tell. I mean, I have a cousin named and some friends named Crystal. So your issue in that particular study is pretty much moot. And I repeat, that wasn’t the main study of the article. Did you read the article? Please read the article. Let’s throw out the name study. What’s the explanation for unemployment among black men with college degrees being twice that of their white counterparts.

And it’s not the questioning of studies as such that bothers me as much as questioning studies and carrying on as though the study should be question without having done the study yourself. That’s what scientists do, right? That’s why scientists and statisticians are so specific, so that others can test their findings by doing their study exactly the way they did it. Now, I don’t know what you know about social science, but having declined to major in social science cause I had had my fill of math, I’m positive it works the same. In fact, that’s how Dubois designed it to work. So what bothers me is questioning a study without bringing up other studies to back up your assertion. At least marandaNJ used a study to get at the central point I was making, albeit a study that had not a whole lot to do with the central point I was making.

Sure, you can explain what you think my views are in another post. And please do read through past comments. You could maybe visit my blog if that helps. So far, you’re wrong.

And marandaNJ, have you read the posts or books on the white racial frame? Or, do you think this is something I just made up?

Sorry I offended you.

But I don’t hate white people. I didn’t say I had white friends, just that I had white roommates.

What’s hateful about the fact that all Americans are immersed in the white racial frame?

Insignificant and ashamed? No, I have not tried to make you feel insignificant and ashamed.

You attacked everything you say that doesn’t have anything to do with racism? Like what? The ROOTS comments? If you read my response, you would’ve seen that I apologized if you sincerely thought I would’ve never heard of ROOTS. As far as equal intelligence, I added that at the very least, you wanted to be sure no one who felt blacks weren’t as intelligent used your words to their own end.

Try to hurt your feelings? No, I wasn’t trying to hurt your feelings, I was just responding with a stat that I had read somewhere – I think a book by Eduardo Bonilla. He interviews a bunch of kids and finds that first, more white college students than black claim to have friends across the racial boundary; and second, upon follow up interviews, what white kids called “friends,” black kids called “acquaintances.” Do you think I was trying to say your black friends probably don’t like you? No. If that’s what I wanted to say, I would’ve said it. I was questioning whether or not these “friends” of yours were actual friends.

So you think I see every white through a hate-filled lense? Yet, you really haven’t shared anything hateful I said about white people. What I say about white people comes from having read lots of research and studies. Most of the white folks I know personally are cool, if naive about racism, but few whites aren’t. Check the facts.

You come across as the typical white person. Is that a compliment? Hmm . . . a better question would be how is that an insult? I remember once, a white classmate said they didn’t think of me as “black.” Was that a compliment?

Now, I’ve been called an anti-white racist even though no one has demonstrated how I’m an anti-white racist. But as misguided as the worst white supremacist?

Does that mean I think black people are better and should rule the world? That’s odd cause I thought I wanted poor blacks to stay in the same position they had been in 50 years ago?

As for the hate filled lensed, again I gotta ask – what are you talking about? What have I said that was so hateful? And lets make a distinction between hateful and offensive. You might find “darlin” offensive, like I don’t use when I’m writing “Happy birthday, Darlin” on my friends’ walls. But it’s hardly hateful.

And I think that’s just the point here. Not very many whites know the difference between hateful and offensive. I don’t think all whites are inferior to blacks, less intelligent or less moral or less attractive or anything like that. I’m just looking at all the research and studies, including psychological studies showing that very few people are without bias. And also, that the more a white person watches the news, the more prejudiced against blacks they become.

Yeah, I have an “angry black women” thing I do. You won’t believe some of the ridiculous things I’ve had to hear, and on the days when I don’t feel up repeating facts or history, I use my “go to,” and get some peace.

So really, take issue with my facts or something, cause I know what I feel about white people and it’s not hate. Is the lens really mine or yours? As in, what makes you think I hate white people, and not racism? And do all people of color who reject the myth that some significant segment of the black community devalues education?

In fact, what have I said that equates to what you’ve said about black people and education?

So, facts or nothing at all. Please take a break from the emotional appeals to love and hate and hurt feelings. Cause from what I’ve learned from having to deal with white people, accusations of racism quickly close the conversation. Or, is repeating something that’s said by mainstream America racist?