Loading ...Interracial Couple Denied Marriage License
ByA justice of the peace in Hammond, Louisiana has refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple. In the last few posts here, we’ve been talking about “anti-miscegenation laws” intended to prohibit intermarriage between blacks and whites. Most of this discussion has been framed as part of a distant past influencing the present in various ways, and in fact, that history continues to live as illustrated by the story about the Louisiana justice’s decision that is lighting up the Internet tonight. But, it’s ok, because you know, he’s “not a racist” and he’s just “concerned about the children” the couple might have. Here’s the story from Associated Press:
Keith Bardwell, justice of the peace in Tangipahoa Parish, says it is his experience that most interracial marriages do not last long. Neither Bardwell nor the couple immediately returned phone calls from The Associated Press. But Bardwell told the Daily Star of Hammond that he was not a racist.
“I do ceremonies for black couples right here in my house,” Bardwell said. “My main concern is for the children.”
Bardwell said he has discussed the topic with blacks and whites, along with witnessing some interracial marriages. He came to the conclusion that most of black society does not readily accept offspring of such relationships, and neither does white society, he said.
“I don’t do interracial marriages because I don’t want to put children in a situation they didn’t bring on themselves,” Bardwell said. “In my heart, I feel the children will later suffer.”
If he does an interracial marriage for one couple, he must do the same for all, he said.
“I try to treat everyone equally,” he said.
Thirty-year-old Beth Humphrey and 32-year-old Terence McKay, both of Hammond, say they will consult the U.S. Justice Department about filing a discrimination complaint.
Humphrey told the newspaper she called Bardwell on Oct. 6 to inquire about getting a marriage license signed. She says Bardwell’s wife told her that Bardwell will not sign marriage licenses for interracial couples.
“It is really astonishing and disappointing to see this come up in 2009,” said American Civil Liberties Union of Louisiana attorney Katie Schwartzman. “The Supreme Court ruled as far back as 1963 that the government cannot tell people who they can and cannot marry.”
The ACLU was preparing a letter for the Louisiana Supreme Court, which oversees the state justices of the peace, asking them to investigate Bardwell and see if they can remove him from office, Schwartzman said.
“He knew he was breaking the law, but continued to do it,” Schwartzman said.
Just to review, it is legal for interracial couples to marry in the U.S. but it used to be illegal. As I wrote about here awhile back, the case that overturned this stupidity was Loving v. Virginia decided in 1967 (there’s also a Lifetime TV movie about the case). And, if you’d like to school yourself on the particulars of where and when interracial marriage was illegal in the U.S., check out this cool, interactive map about interracial marriage laws (h/t Nancy Netherland for this resource).
And, to further review the evidence, children of interracial marriages do not suffer in when compared to other children provided that they grow up in an environment that’s accepting of diversity and children of interracial marriages. If children of interracial marriages encounter racism (and other structural disadvantages), then they’re more likely to experience stress, and health-related risks due to that increased stress, such as smoking and drinking. That’s a result of racism, and yet another reason to work to end racism. It should not be used – turning logic on its head – as a reason to perpetuate racism.
Amen!
And hello- over 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce- not exactly like the odds are with anyone who marries.
And of course, as you allude to, how about the effects of stressors wrought by racism on interracial couples and biracial kids being attributed t0, say, uh racist institutions and actions.
Just posted on my wee silly blog about this.
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Ugh. Just maddening. This guy better be relieved of his duties and soon. Thanks for the link to that great map, tho!
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Perhaps a tangent: I am always suspicious of “for the children” arguments; they are usually merely judgments – racist, sexist, or cultural – on the parents, disguised in pseudo-scientific language. It’s trotted out against everything from divorce to women keeping their birth names.
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Bardwell is apparently also cited by the AP Press as saying: “I’m not a racist. I just don’t believe in mixing the races that way. . .I have piles and piles of black friends. They come to my home, I marry them, they use my bathroom (what bold courage! – my sarcasm of course). I treat them just like everyone else.”
Nice analysis at the end, Jessie. I’d like to add, as someone who was has been partnered in several lengthy interracial relationships, it has not been my experience that people of color are the main “gatekeepers” in attempting to keep such unions apart. Unfortunately, I don’t know if the larger data on this matter coincides with my personal experience. Nonetheless, let’s be clear that objecting to interracial relationships is most often a qualitatively different matter when comparing white responses with those of people of color – not the “equal opportunity” opposition that Bardwell would like to suggest. Research documents that whites frequently turn to the “safe” “for the sake of the children” argument in defending their opposition to interracial coupling – very ironically, use of the “children” rationale is an implicit acknowledgement that racism exists (despite the fact that similar research also documents the regularity with which many, if not most whites argue that racism does not exist today, or downplay the severity of racial oppression contemporary society).
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I think you left out “not” in the last sentence. Certainly you meant to say “It should NOT be used…”
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Hey folks ~ thanks for your comments. Zombie Mom – thought that story might strike a nerve. distance88 – you’re most welcome. Barbara, JenniM – yes, I’m always suspicious of the ‘for the children’ arguments. Tom – thanks for catching that typo – which I’ve corrected – my excuse is late-night posting after a long work day!
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@JenniM – your last point (that white ppl’s acknowledgment of racism peeks through the concern for the children) exactly expressed what left me sputteringly mad about this story.
thanks for saying what i was too mad to say!
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Hold on – someone could re-phrase this as “Public Official not forced to do what HE feels is wrong”. I personally believe that interracial marriages are perfectly fine, but come on – the guy referred the couple to another justice. A couple was not “Refused” the right to marry – just referred to another Justice! We should not be so shocked that someone has different beliefs.
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They could always come to the Northeast because they would only have to be in town 3 days before the marriage certificate was applied for and of course have a witness. DAM YANKEES!:0)
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Jenni,
I agree wholeheartedly with your experiential observation about the qualitative difference between whites’ and blacks’ professed disapproval of interracial unions.
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Besides the fact that your point matches my own experience as well, the interviews I’ve done with elderly white people are illuminating. They tend to assume – with no evidence – that biracial children are outright rejected from “both sides,” that white and black people in general agree that it’s better if we don’t “mix” in that way.
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Seems to me that this all goes along with the long history of white people flipping their own racist ideology and projecting it onto black folks. They did it in the mayhem after Brown v. Board, for example, claiming up and down that black parents didn’t want their dear little ones in mixed-up schools or shipped off on nasty old school buses any more than white parents did.
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In doing some research on the city I’m investigating, I came across a letter to the editor by the head of the local NAACP chapter, explaining very clearly WHY some African American residents were not enthusiastic about school integration. Of course they were not the same reasons white residents opposed it. Were those white readers able to hear it? Doubtful. This is not about logic, after all, but emotional and psychological investment.
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GoodCitizen, your argument is as backwards as the day is long. I am sorry, but elected public officials should not be allowed to dictate the civil rights and lives of others based on their personal biases. Essentially this ELECTED public official is not upholding the law that allows heterosexual people to marry, despite race, class and ethnic identity. A law decided, oh, I don’t know, 42 years ago. Even that was long overdue.
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Let’s say you work as a public official in some sort of human resources capacity. Should you have the right to deny someone’s employment for some bogus personal belief about groups or individuals (insert whatever stereotyped you’d like here)? So as long as you pass the applicant’s information to someone else it’s ok?
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I know it’s not a perfect example but I just do not follow your logic.
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@GoodCitizen – That’s a pretty apolitical analysis – despite his lower ranking, this is a judicial officer who would have been elected or appointed to uphold the law. You are right, that this couple will be able to get married, but that’s because it is a right guaranteed by the Consitution. For the sake of extending your logic, would it be o.k. if all justices refused them because that was their belief system, and Constitution be damned?
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If Bardwell is indeed pointing out that the children of a mixed race couple will suffer more than other children in the south, then he’s made a bold statement that we all need to respect. However, I’m not sure that was his intent. Regardless, he will be crucified for this.
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Further, I am no pro-marriage fanatic but it saddens me even more to think that this guy has single-handedly soured what should be a very joyous and wonderful occasion for a couple.
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(One that should be extended to all couples!)
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http://www.hrc.org/millionformarriage/
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I understand the studies, but having friends in Louisiana it’s possible the experience of those in that state might be different, or at least from what I’ve been told. The judge’s experience might bear out what he appears to have been saying, and I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt.
It’s hard to figure what he was thinking, though when truth be told it is quite likely that this guy wears his racism on his sleeve like a stain he doesn’t know is there.
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when truth be told it is quite likely that this guy wears his racism on his sleeve like a stain he doesn’t know is there.
Exactly. Well said, cooper.
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But then, cooper, given that he’s been entrusted with a official capacity of of the state — granting marriage licenses — I don’t agree with the part of your comment that says he should be “given the benefit of the doubt.” He might be a nice guy, but he’s still a racist nice guy — I don’t find it all that “hard to figure what he was thinking.”
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Let’s remember Jessie’s analysis in the final two paragraphs of the post – if we are to give him the “benefit of the doubt” shouldn’t the solution be addressing white racism against biracial couples and children rather than preventing the civil rights of such folks?
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(such folks = biracial couples and children)
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After reading this BS article, I am truly thankful to be in California with my beautiful white wife and biracial kids! I’m really praying that we as humans get beyond judgment of an Organ called skin! The real war is and always will be in the thoughts of women and mens mind/brain.
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How many white people (especially Southerners) would be willing to have a DNA analysis done to see if they have any African ancestry?
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Now that the U.S. has a black president, the biggot box is wide open. The plague of biggotry and racism will unfortunately take a strong foothold in this country once again. This is not an unexpected reaction by fearful whites of having someone non-white in charge of the country. The openly biggoted individuals in this country are only part of the problem. There are those that insidiously keep quiet about racism or deny it’s existence entirely that allow the problem to persist.
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@ macon and cooper – The problem with the hypothesis that his experience may bear out his analysis is that his racism will scew his experience. It’s much more likely that even limiting data to his singular experience, it still won’t bear out his conclusion. (Watching NUM3BERS right now, hence the math reference.)
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@ Charles – (a bit o.t.) As you may know, a recent report done by a Democratic research group showed that racism is not a motivating factor in the brouhaha. Of course, participants doubt Obama’s education, think he’s slick, think he’s lying, think he wants to ruin the country. Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t those all black stereotypes?
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Here is an interesting study (Udry JR, Li RM, Hendrickson-Smith J: Health and behavior risks of adolescents with mixed-race identity. Am J Public Health 2003, 93:1865-1870.):
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/full/93/11/1865?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&author1=Udry&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT
From the conclusion: “Adolescents who self-identify as more than 1 race are at higher health and behavior risks. The findings are compatible with interpreting the elevated risk of mixed race as associated with stress.”
But notice that the authors control for age, sex, verbal IQ, grade point average, family structure (living with one or both parents), and family education. The results are also compatible with being interpreted as indicating a higher degree of autonomic nervous system abnormalities in mixed-race individuals. Stress as a result of trouble with identity formation as accounting for all the listed (in the study, see link above) behaviorial and health pathologies stretches credulity.
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Three cheers for racial progress!
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Less than 50 years ago, this story would not have been newsworthy. Now you can’t find a single respectable public figure who supports the JP’s position. This is good news, people.
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Darin Johnson brings up a good point. There isn’t a single “respectable” (to use the term lightly) public figure who supports the position of this aging redneck, but it is still a damned ugly outrage.
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@ Darin:
What are you so cynical about Darin? Would you want justices of the peace to Decide who can and cannot marry?
‘You’re Latino and you’re of Irish ancestry. Nope. No can do. You’re Jewish and you’re a Methodist. Sorry. Go elsewhere. You have diabetes and you have a heart condition. These might affect your children. Sorry! Wrong justice. Don’t even think about it.’
This man worked for the state of Louisiana which means he represents the State and legally has no right to turn people away at his discretion. What he did was discriminatory and irresponsible in the gravest extreme. Sorry Darin, but everybody won’t go back to 1950 just because you wish we were still there.
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Outrage? Come on, it’s some penny-ante Justice of the Peace in some one-horse town in Louisiana. It’s not an outrage, it’s a farce. You guys are taking this guy way too seriously.
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Why not just laugh him off as a relic of an older, uglier age, drink a toast to your forebears who actually had to suffer this, and forget it. He’s like those Japanese soldiers on a South Pacific Island forty years after World War II.
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“Three cheers for racial progress!
… This is good news, people.”
Ignorant statement. But then, again, I’ve always found the kind of self-congratulatory nature of applauding people/country for discarding (or submerging) backward-azzed beliefs and showing basic, kindergarten level human decency a bit weird and totally over-rated and over done. I guess I was never taught to celebrate or compliment someone for doing something they are supposed to do.
I won’t even go into the many ways some folks act like said “racial progress”, etc. are acts of kindness on the order of going out of their way to do you (i.e. non-whites) a favor…
And since I’m talking about things I’ve always found weird… It always struck me as odd how interracial dating/marriage figured prominently in a lot of commentaries about “racial progress.” As with most things, we’d be wise to question: from whose perspective?
I think Rich Benjamin’s study of Whitopia’s gives us reason to question Darin’s elation and premature conclusion. Clearly Bardwell isn’t in the minority when it comes to being opposed to the races being in “mixed” company.
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@ Everybody:
Darin was being sarcastic when he said,’Three cheers for racial progress’. He sees this entire episode as another Left Wing sillification of minority rights being violated. I know you enjoy playing devil’s advocate Darin, but seldom {I’ve mentioned this before} do you state your own belief system. You’re having too much fun giggling at the beliefs of others.
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Darin@ To be honest, it’s becase of people like this that I am having some difficulty. If this person is like this concerning inner racial marriage, then I am sure he has those same beliefs concerning other bigotry, regarding all people not of his own origin. etc.. So, again, I do believe the man is a little ” out dated” , BUT TOO bad. Maybe somebody needs to bring him up to date, or he needs to retire, and let some other pour soul have a job to feed their children. Ignorance is acceptable, but arrogance it not. I don’t believe this person is ignorant because of the fact that he studied the law, and there is not an excuse for his behavior. In fact, I get fined if I’m not updated, regarding, laws and ethics in my profession…And, we are warned about being ignorant regarding laws, and are punished up to $5,000, $10,000, or $15, 000. And, my job does not involve the sacred union of two people. I found this article to be very disturbing because there are a lot of people in the southern states that cause havoc in the lives of all people that are of color, or not from there ect. I’m tired of all the bullshit that I had to untangle because of people like him ,and have zero tolerance or empathy for his behavior. I think in all fairness he should lose his job, and I am certain this is not the first time he was racist towards anybody he does not seem fit to live.
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Ellen, no, I’m being completely serious. The reason this episode stands out is because it is outside the bounds of decent society. As far as I can tell, everybody agrees: the JP is a joke. On the other hand, it’s not that long ago that it would NOT have been a joke, and it would not have been news, either. How is that not progress?
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Nquest, you can choose not to acknowledge progress, but the facts are what they are. If you were never taught to praise people for doing what they’re supposed to do, then I hope you never have kids. That’s just absurd.
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I am glad you brought up the point about why people are so opposed to interracial marriage. When you think about race from a genetic perspective — as a large, highly-inbred, family — it’s obvious. Genes that favor their own race will have been selected for. You’d expect racism (and every other sort of tribalism) to be the natural state of men. When you actually look around the world and note why people are actually fighting, this is usually the reason. And that’s why non-racism is worth cheering about — it’s not natural, it takes effort and will. It’s an accomplishment.
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Ellen, I think I’ve bee pretty obvious about my beliefs. Your statement that I somehow want to turn back the clock to 1950 is obtuse.
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I never said I thought the JP should have the right not to marry interracial couples. He shouldn’t. All I’m saying is that this episode is not an “outrage.” It’s the act of one off-kilter guy who as far as I can tell has absolutely no support from anyone.
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Anyway, I hope you’ll take back what you said about me.
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MOM, he probably WILL lose his job. Which is exactly what should happen. Some clown acts improperly. He gets caught. Everybody makes fun of him for being a clown and he gets fired. Where’s the outrage?
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@ Darin,
The problem is that you are usually so contrary to everything posted here, I was under the impression your ‘three cheers’ remark was sarcastic. Ok..I stand corrected. Calm down.
>You do have a tendency to stick your tongue out at everybody as in “Racism..schmasism..get over it.’ I don’t know why you’re suddenly so hurt when I interpret your rejoicing over anti-racism progress as ambivalent. Again, calm down.
> Oh, and please don’t call me A Moose! LOL
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MOM, he probably WILL lose his job. Which is exactly what should happen. Some clown acts improperly. He gets caught. Everybody makes fun of him for being a clown and he gets fired. Where’s the outrage?
Re-read my post!
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Ellen, does that mean you’re not going to take back your insinuation that I think the JP should be able to decide not to grant licenses to interracial couples?
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@Darin:
Why are So Touchy these last few days? OK. I take back my insinuation that you thought the JP should be able to discriminate on who he grants licenses to. Please relax Darin. Jeez!
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Were you joking? It didn’t seem like you were joking.
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Anyway, college football season has started and my team has had some real ups and downs. Sometimes it’s hard to just KBO.
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@ Darin:
I wasn’t joking. Such paranoia.
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@ Darin:
>Keep Buggering On? Winston Churchill? Did anyone ever tell you that some of your ‘phraseology’ is a bitsy archaic? Tough life there guy…your football team is experiencing angst..I hate to say this {cause I’m another Whitey Myself} but honestly? Saying this sounds like stuff from that website Stuff White People Like. You should go there..it’s Way Funny! Reminds me of…me! In an Embarrassing way gotta admit.
> Example: White people like to make the most of their free time, but many of them discovered that time doing yoga was time away from their dog and time with their dog was time away from yoga.
>It was becoming a fairly significant problem. Thankfully, Doga has been created to allow white people to combine two of their favorite things into one expensive, time consuming activity called Doga or dog yoga.
>There really is something to this White Racial Frame meme! What a strange race. lol
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/
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Who said I’m white?! Just because I quote Winston Churchill you assume I’m white. I wonder if Jessie will write a post about this outrage.
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Some of my best friends are white people, though, and one thing I’ve noticed about “Stuff White People Like” is that it’s really more like “Stuff Canadians Like” or maybe “Stuff People from Seattle Like.” It is pretty hilarious, still. I think my favorite is Number 4 — Assists. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.
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Actually, that web site and this one make for an interesting juxtaposition. You could put RacismReview.com on “Stuff White People Like.” But a lot of the “Stuff” highlights the absurdity of the politically correct version of how the world works. If there’s no such thing as race, then why is Number 4 so hilarious?
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Personally, I find it much easier (and more honest) to just say, “Black guys are MUCH better at basketball than white guys are.” But I bet that simple statement would cause no small amount of consternation around here — because if you acknowledge one racial difference what’s to stop you from acknowledging others? Scary!
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If black guys are so much better at basketball, why don’t African basketball teams ever win medals at the Olympics? I mean, Africans are black, right Darin?
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The idea that black guys are better at basketball than white guys is simply not true. As to your race, Darin, I initially thought you were black; now I’m sure you’re white. Not because of the Churchhill quotes or some of the more “no self-respecting black person would say that” things you post; I think you did opine once that in your industry, being black would be a bonus. Maybe you’re Asian or Latin? You’re obviously not black.
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[...] The blog Racism Review countered Bardwell’s “concern for the children” with evidence on children of interracial relationships: And, to further review the evidence, children of [...]
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Instead of trying to guess my race, why not focus on my arguments?
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Distance88, you’re not seriously denying that black guys are better at basketball than white guys, are you? I assume the African countries don’t win gold medals in basketball at the Olympics because they don’t much care about basketball there. In the western African countries, where the African-American athletes I’m talking about come from, they seem to play mostly soccer.
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A more clear example of this is the Olympic 100 meters. All 32 of the finalists in the last four Olympics (as of 1999, when this was calculated) were descended from West African countries representing about 8% of the world’s population. The odds of this happening by chance are around 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to one. This number is bigger than the distance to the farthest star measured in feet. In other words, it CANNOT happen by chance.
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We can play the same game with cornerbacks in the NFL (where foot-speed is at an absolute premium). It’s staring you right in the face. If you weren’t so worried about the political implications you’d be embarrassed to deny it.
But please, explain to me how this is all due to white-racist framing of the Olympics or that the concept of “100 metres” was invented by a white Frenchman. I can’t wait.
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“Distance88, you’re not seriously denying that black guys are better at basketball than white guys, are you?”
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Yes, I am. Your statement is ecological fallacy.
“I assume the African countries don’t win gold medals in basketball at the Olympics because they don’t much care about basketball there”
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Yes, that’s precisely my point. The difference is not racial, it’s cultural–as basketball has become a more global sport, you see teams drafting more and more young European and Asian players. Soccer, perhaps, is even a better example since it is the arguably the most popular sport in the world.
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As far as the “sprinter” argument goes, even if you accept the whole ‘fast-twitch’ vs ’slow-twitch’ muscle fibers and their varying distributions (the evidence isn’t so clear cut, but I’d be happy to read any references you may have on the subject), it would be silly to assume that this physical difference is associated with some genetic or racial difference. Height, weight, bone density, and body type are determined by a slew of factors that aren’t genetic or otherwise inherent to socially determined racial categories.
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Just out of curiosity, Darin, where would you put Hispanics and Asians in your athletic ability hierarchy?
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You’re being obtuse. Is it purposeful, or is this really how like to talk about this?
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It’s not “Africans” who win the 100 meters, it’s a very small group of West Africans. It’s not “Asians” and “Europeans” who are drafted into the NBA, it’s Northern Chinese and Eastern Europeans, who tend to be a little taller than average. My argument is not about continents, it’s about gene pools. So I have no idea where Asians fall in my continuum of athletic ability until you tell me what you mean by “Asian” and what you mean by “athletic ability.” I have one answer if you mean Chinese pingpong players and another if you mean Vietnamese shot putters.
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But you knew that already.
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Do you not understand how hereditary factors work? Of course there is more to any one person’s footspeed (or height, IQ, personality, etc.) than his genes. However, when you’re talking about large populations, the averages can be clearly separated even though there is still considerable overlap in the distributions. That’s why I can say, “Men are taller than women,” even though we both know plenty of tall women and short men.
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Of course you already know that, too. I find that most of the people I have this debate with already knew everything I say, they just choose to pretend they don’t because they don’t like the truth as much as the fantasy.
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What on earth is an “ecological fallacy” Is that the same as a “fallacy”? I guess it’s irrelevant in this case, since what I’m saying is not false:in America blacks are wildly overrepresented in basketball at the highest levels (because they’re better) — although not at the lower levels (because they don’t like it any more).
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How about if we cut straight to the chase. You’re resisting these obvious points about athletic ability, which are right there for any fool to see, for a specific reason. You think if you admit that West African blacks sprint better because they’re West African blacks, then you’ll have to admit it’s possible that Ashkenazi Jews think better for the same reason. Admit it, your headache will probably go away the minute you do.
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Darin, I’m not trying to be obtuse, I’m trying to understand what you are saying, where you are coming from.
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Just to be absolutely crystal, are West Africans, specifically, a separate ‘race’ of people that we are mistakenly calling ‘black’? Do West Africans have genetically different muscle structures?
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“However, when you’re talking about large populations, the averages can be clearly separated even though there is still considerable overlap in the distributions…”
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Well, this sort of begs the question. If the averages are so easily separated by genetic distribution as you say, then why is there still considerable overlap in the distribution? ‘Easy separations’ connote little or no overlap.
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All genetics aside, the stereotyping of athletic ability has two major negative side effects (that I can think of): (1) it subtracts from all of the hard work and dedication that it requires to be a great athlete–all of which is bypassed by Jimmy-the-Greek-style statements like “blacks just naturally run faster”; (2) all blacks who would prefer to excel in a field other than sports constantly have to fight off the misguided notion that athletics is the sole realm where they can best succeed.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy
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Okay, I’ll take you at your word.
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Terms like “race” may or may not be helpful, I don’t know, and I’m not particularly invested in them. However, there is generally a group of people who for (probably) tens of thousands of years lived in Western Africa. They bred mostly with themselves, so over time their gene pool became slightly different from people’s in other parts of Africa and the rest of the world. They became a very large, highly inbred extended family.
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This is true all over the place. It’s why Scandanavians have blue eyes and blond hair. It’s why East Indians look the way they do, and so on. This is how evolution works: populations are isolated and over time their characteristics diverge due to randomness and due to adaptation to their environments.
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I’m not sure that these groups align all that closely with the idea of race. Persians, East Indians, and Chinese are all “Asian,” at least in one sense, but you’d have to be blind to think they’re particularly close cousins genetically speaking.
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One of the accidents of evolution appears to be that the West African group we talked about earlier can run like the wind over short distances. Maybe that’s an adaptive trait, maybe it’s an accident, I don’t know. But it is as plain as the nose on your face.
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Interestingly, as you pointed out, this footspeed advantage doesn’t show up so much with West Africans in Africa. It seems to be West Africans in North America, the Caribbean, and Northern Europe, places where the resources are available to develop the potential of a sprinter. That’s why I do not discount your point about cultural and environmental factors — they are clearly important. But the fact remains that a Norwegian kid born and raised in Jamaica will never run a 9.59-second 100 meters. It just isn’t going to happen.
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Easy separations most certainly do NOT denote little or no overlap. As I mentioned earlier, it is easy to separate the heights of men and women. Men are taller. However, there are plenty of six-foot women and five-foot-six men. The fact that tall women are taller than short men does not mean that the statement “men are taller than women” is false. It’s just means it’s a statement of statistical, not absolute, truth.
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Pretty much anything you can say about groups of humans is true only in the statistical sense, whether you’re talking about races or not. Are Democrats more liberal than Republicans? Yes, but Zel Miller is more conservative than Olympia Snow. Do Floridians live South of Alabamans? Yes, but some of Florida is north of some of Alabama. Do Mormons live in Utah? Yes, but many live elsewhere. Once you get the idea, it’s not so strange at all. What would be very strange would be if there were two groups of people who did not overlap at all in some important characteristic. After all, humans have not been separated for all that long in evolutionary terms. Our similarities outnumber our differences, physically, culturally, and intellectually. But that doesn’t mean the differences aren’t there 0r aren’t important.
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No one said hard work isn’t necessary. The vast majority of West Africans do not become Olympic sprinters, for example. But if the fact that there’s a genetic component to athletic success hurts somebody’s feelings, then that’s just tough. The facts are what they are, whether we like them or not. Jimmy the Greek did not say, “blacks run faster,” by the way. That would probably not have gotten him fired — although you never know with the PC patrols the way they are. He claimed that blacks were bred as slaves in such a way as to produce physical superiority. That’s a pretty different statement, not one I support.
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My response to your second point, that black success in (some) athletics makes people think that’s the only place they can succeed is similar: tough. First of all, I don’t think anybody actually thinks this way, and second it’s not even true: Blacks have disproportionate success in many areas. But lets say it is true, that people say because blacks are great sprinters and basketball players they can’t be stock brokers and journalists. The solution to that is not to add another lie — that blacks are NOT in fact good athletes — but to correct the first one. Don’t you think?
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Okay, I read the definition of ecological fallacy. Have you read it? Because you’re committing it. You’re suggesting that for the statement “blacks are better at basketball than whites” to be true all blacks must be better than all whites.
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“You’re suggesting that for the statement “blacks are better at basketball than whites” to be true all blacks must be better than all whites.”
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No, I’m suggesting you can’t tell anything about the individual, and a lot of times groups of individuals, based upon some group average–in this case, basketball ability. If we take two men in the U.S. who have never played basketball before, one black and one white, and had them play 10, 20, or 50 games of one-on-one, are you saying that the black guy should win significantly more than the white guy?
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And it’s not safe to assume that physical differences are a necessary result of genetic differences or racial differences–you didn’t explicitly say this, but I still got that implication. Different climates and different diets can lead to different bone densities and muscle structures–cooler climates seem to produce people with shorter limbs, for instance. But these physical differences manifest over many generations–hundreds or even thousands of years–so yeah, there aren’t any Jamaican sprinters of Norwegian descent. The fact is, despite the physical differences, we all are close cousins genetically speaking. There are very few groups of people that remain genetically isolated–tribes in New Guinea might be one example. I don’t think humans are as isolated, or were as isolated, as you seem to indicate. Homo sapiens are more genetically homogeneous than any other mammal.
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88, I hope you don’t feel as though I hung you out to dry or anything like that. Darin’s whole premise against racial equality is that there just might be the off chance, however minute, that there really are differences between the races. His proof includes unscientific observations about sports. Until he can come up with something better, why pretend his arguments are anything more than support of racism?
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