Loading ...Facebook Racism Reaches New Low with Assassination Poll
ByI’ve written here before about the various permutations of Facebook racism. Over the weekend, it appears that Facebook racism reached a new low with a poll asking “should obama be killed?” Here’s the screen grab from TPM:
The response categories available for those who clicked on the poll to take it were: “yes, maybe, if he cuts my health care, no.” The good news, if one were looking for it in this story, is that the poll has been removed from Facebook and, according to Greg Sargent at WhoRunsGov, the U.S. Secret Service is investigating.
So much for social media offering a new path to world peace and an end to racism.
The fact this sort of thing appeared on Facebook is connected to the rise in death threats against President Obama (up 400%) and the kind of vitriolic hate speech spewed by radio and tv-talk show hosts such as Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs and Bill O’Reilly. This sort of speech creates an environment in which extremists are emboldened to act and ‘lone wolf’ assassins feel empowered by the collective hatred of the president. This kind of speech is rooted in racism and clearly threatens the life of the president. There can be no first amendment defense for such speech and legal action should be taken against those who created and published this poll.
I’m not saying this to be mean, but have you ever visited a ghetto? Some of those kids are in gangs from the age of 10 years old, and sell drugs, and are exposed to things that you couldn’t imagine. I believe a lot of their parents need to be rehabilitated as well.. There needs to be a whole “shake down” of the environment not just better school facilities.. This is what I think may help. I feel that the people in the ghettos not only should get better education, but better housing, and there should be teams of people talking to some of the older adults and help to rehabilitate/training opportunities etc. I feel, rather then pumping new money into more prisons they should be taking all non-violent offenders and putting them into the military like they did in the 1970′s, which saved a lot of people’s lives, and they became successful people after the service. In prisons they have gangs. The prisons do nothing to, but sit back and watch these people act like animals, however, once in a while the prison with spend millions to have “shake downs” to make sure there are no weapons. There is something very wrong with the system today. If we did not have criminals we would not need as many prisons, right? Money/Power/Greed/Control! I guess, my outlook on things are a little different, but I watch what’s going on, and the hardest hit are the lower social economic class. However, without those people there would not be as many jobs for the “justice” system. Sorry this is how I feel. I’ve actually sat in court one day and watched a Judge do a TV interview with a prisoner, and the Judge was trying to explain to the prisoner his rights, and everybody in the court room was laughing at this prisoner, but me. Do you know why because every time the Judge would say “Sir” you do have a right to a court appointed attorney, the prisoner would say, that’s alright Judge I’m fine were I’m at. I suspect that prisoner was living better inside that prison then he had it out on the street, or in his place of residents, which was a ghetto part of town. Now, with that being said, do you really think a better learning facility with a pool and better teachers would of make a difference to that kind of a person. There needs to be reform not only were these people attend school, but also in how they live, and sometimes when the “police” get to know you they always have it out for that person. It’s a never ending merry-go-round for some poor souls who are again brought into this world be chance, and not by choice.
I agree with Siss regarding the reparations issue. It would be impossible to calculate monetary value earned by ancestors {slaves} of black citizens today.
Instead, let’s put money into better educational facilities for black children.
As far as ‘how many blacks would benefit from state of the art educational resources’. Well, that depends on their home environment. If their parents are insisting the kids do homework and read for pleasure and take them to the library etc…yes, it makes a difference. It doesn’t matter if the parents have a college education. What matters is if parents place a high value on education, period.
That said, this is sometimes hard to do in a poverty stricken environment. It means {of necessity} keeping children Away From Other Kids who are trying to sell them drugs, enforcing curfews, taking an unpopular stance as in ‘Do what I say or else.’ Parenting ain’t easy. I oughta know.
For middle class ‘working class’ blacks..I think with more money spent on education.. a difference can be made. For blacks in housing projects..this is Tough. How can you keep your kids clean when so much of their environment is trying to drag them down?
I work with Asian students whose parents can’t even speak English. Many of them do not have college educations, even from their country of origin. Yet, they Insist on Their Kids Being Stuffed With as Much Information as their little heads can hold.
Plus, Asians are very supportive of Each Other. They form strong social networks {I’ve seen this in operation!} in which they, as a unit, Support Education and Intellectualism in their kids. For a teenager to oppose one parent means they are opposing the whole group..so the kids pretty much stay in line.
By the time they’re in high school they’re Sold on the education philosophy and start aiming at an Ivy League college. And they are ferocious in this persuit. Community Solidarity. But everybody’s gotta be on the same page or it won’t work! For Asians, failure is not an option. We can All learn from this philosophy.
@mom: I think military rehabilitation is an excellent idea, at least for non-violent offenders. And as far as the ghetto… I grew up in one, but was lucky enough to be funneled into an amazing school (the best in our district at the time) and subsequently did very well : )
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@ellen: You are correct, much of the child’s success is contingent on their environment. This is the part that government money can’t really fix. We can’t mandate that parents be interested in, or make education a priority, even though we probably should. With all the motivation they can muster, if a child’s achievements are ignored (or worse, ridiculed), you will see them begin to disengage and ultimately give up.
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As for the Asian-Americans, their familial network is unbelievably strong. In my experiences, it boils down to cultural differences. This may seem like the “white frame” in action, but it really is not, otherwise Asian-American students wouldn’t be whipping our @$$ in academics. If African-Americans, Whites, Latin@s, etc. could tap into that determination, imagine what our country could become? Now, that’s not to say that if you’re Asian, you’re educationally-centered, but it is a reasonable conclusion. It is something that we should try and emulate.
@Ellen,
Hmm, we can all learn from the ancient, wise, inscrutable, no-nonsense Asian philosophy, can we?
What about all of the Asian immigrants who come to this country and struggle? Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong, and Laotian immigrants don’t fare as well as, say Japanese, Chinese, and Korean immigrants do. The data simply don’t support your anecdote–many Asian immigrants come to this country after achieving some level of success in their native country–the rags to riches meme just doesn’t fit.
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This whole model minority myth does a huge disservice to all parties involved–it glosses over the actual discrimination that Asians have faced in the past and currently, and it reinforces the misguided notion among whites that “if Asians can come to the U.S. and succeed, what’s wrong with the blacks and Hispanics?” Other minorities may start to buy into this false notion and begin to resent Asians and their “model minority” status.
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While having a strong work ethic and a commitment to education are important, these aren’t the sole factors determining one’s success. Comparing one immigrant group who came to this country of their own volition with another group who was brought here in chains does not make for a credible argument or fair comparison.
distance 88 said: ‘Other minorities may start to buy into this false notion and begin to resent Asians and their “model minority” status.’
You’re right! We wouldn’t want other minorities to buy into the work ethic. It might make them Resent Asians. Excellent point. This work ethic might rub off on school aged children..and then there’d be the devil to pay!
Also, the fact that I’ve worked with Asians from all different countries in Asia {one man from Vietnam came here..actually escaped from the Khmer Rouge Regime when he was 19} and taught himself English {but don’t tell anybody!} He then put himself through the University of Rhode Island and received 3 Degrees: one in physics, chemistry and mechanical engineering. However, this had Nothing to Do with being a Wise Asian..as you pointed out.
Also, I previously posted a comment that stated a study I read that Willing Immigrants Do Much Better in America than Immigrants who were Brought here in Chains. The blacks did not Choose to be here. Right again.
However, the next commentator told me that black citizens can hardly be called immigrants since they’ve been here for 400 years. Good point. I wonder if blacks visited other countries..which place would they choose to live in? I am very serious. Maybe Africa, Canada? What do you think?
distance 88 said:’What about all of the Asian immigrants who come to this country and struggle?’
I don’t know if you misread my post or not. My point was that All the Asians do come to this country and Struggle 7 Days a Week until they live in a $300,000 house and their kids go to Yale. What about them? What exactly was your point?
@ SIS- You go girl! We have a couple things in common..I’m glad you are in agreement with me about the military. I’ve known several people that when the Vietnam war was going on that had a choice Vietnam or Jail.. Well, needless to say, they choose Vietnam, and now are getting ready to retire as Engineers from the military..So, anyway, things have changed a lot, but really, in some areas not so good..Also, I am glad you had the opportunity to go through a good school. I was not as lucky. I didn’t start school until my thirty’s, and have been in school ever since. Although, I stress to my own children the importance of school and try to encourage them to continue even when they think they are done. I feel that they would also have a better chance to survive in this world with an education then without one, so that’s why I kinda “harp” on them every chance that I get. LOL
@distance: which child or parent that we referred to was brought here in chains? None. While their ancestors might, that petty jab adds nothing to the discussion. We acknowledged that because of past injustices (like slavery, etc), disparities have arisen in schools.
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And while some Asians come here by their own accord, AA’s still have advantages newly migrated peoples (of all nationalities) do not (knowing the language, having family here, established access to community networks). Both face struggles, albeit different ones – no one is arguing that. As for the model minority myth, it’s not all false. I do agree that it glosses over some (i.e. hmong) and places them into one “can-do-no-wrong” category, but the only way to combat that is through exposure to the hardships they face.
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Myths in general are just people’s perceptions, reinforced with passed down misinformation. However untrue they may be according to the statistics, simply pointing that out doesn’t always debunk the myth. Until you introduce the correct perceptions into people’s reality, people will still think “If Asians can do it, why can’t (insert ethic group) do it?”. And as you pointed out: if [others feel resentment towards Asians for receiving praise for their achievements] (and thus being used as an example), then shame on them. That’s how people learn, through examples. The Asian community is not a perfect example but still serves as a gauge of what can be accomplished when faced with barriers.
@ distance 88:
Thought you might find this interesting. Another Asian-American does it again!STOCKHOLM – Three Americans whose 1960s research laid the foundation for today’s world of computerized images and lightning-fast communication shared the 2009 Nobel Prize in physics Tuesday for their work developing fiber-optic cable and the sensor at the heart of digital cameras.
Charles K. Kao, 75, was cited for discovering how to transmit light signals over long distances through glass fibers as thin as a human hair. His 1966 breakthrough led to the creation of modern fiber-optic communication networks that carry voice, video and high-speed Internet data around the world.
Maybe the Asians people do better in school because they eat better then most Americans. Lot of vegetables, rice etc.
Although I truly don’t mean to be disrespectful, I have to say I am troubled by some of the opinions being passed back and forth in these most recent comments because there are many that seem to be stereotypical generalizations and, at a quick glance, appear to be supported by mostly anectdotal evidence at best. Indeed, there is much research evidence that would contradict may of the points being made here, but in the interest of time and space let me address what I see as one major, over-arching issue. I want to urge us to move away from the tendency (which is admittedly very common in the larger society) to assume that all life outcomes are simply the product of people’s individual choices, and move toward understanding more completely that people’s personal choices interact heavily with the social context in which they are made. I thought in our discussion of schooling above (re: the Oprah clip) we were moving in this direction, but now I feel we’ve lost that a bit. Regarding Asian American success, research documents, as siss and distance88 pointed out, that social-structural factors typically play a large role in that success. So, for example, even if Asian immigrants come to the U.S. with few material resources (and many come with some financial assets), they often arrive with educational credentials, work experience or elite status in their countries of origin which facilitates their adaptation and success here. Of course, when the story gets told of how they achieved success, both they and the larger society tends to suggest it was simply individual or even “cultural” characteristics (“we had nothing – we worked hard, and poof – we have our $300,000 house”). This totally overlooks the structural influences on their success. Also overlooked is that fact that while there is no doubt much discrimination against Asians and Asian Americans (and I do not at all want to invalidate the reality of this fact), public sentiment towards Asians often accents more “positive” stereotyping (the model-minority stuff), and so the racial hostility directed toward them (e.g., in searching for jobs, housing, etc.) tends to be less intense than say, anti-black hostility (e.g., an employer may be more inclined to extend an opportunity to an Asian/Asian American, whom s/he attributes “positive” stereotypes to, than a black American, whom s/he attributes “negative” stereotypes to; ditto for a white family’s reaction to an Asian family moving into the neighborhood versus a black family, etc.). Again, as they may influence a person’s achievement, opportunities or success, these are factors outside an individual’s control, but which can constrain (or enhance) a person’s opportunities, and yet, are often left out of the accounting of what leads to success (or failure) altogether – and so the story, and admonition remains – just work harder!
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Now, to connect this with the issue of how Asians/Asian Americans may interact or be perceived by other groups of color, let’s not lose what the key issue is here. There is some research that documents hostility between Asians/Asian Americans and other groups of color – nonetheless, this hostility tends to originate not so much from, say, petty jealousy or cultural differences as it does from these larger, structural issues. Maybe more importantly, we need to appreciate how the model minority myth is part of the dominant white racial frame that we often talk about here on the site (and, to be clear, although I can’t speak for all the comments made on this site, when race scholars discuss whites, whiteness, white framing, etc., the goal is not to “demonize” whites, or to neglect the heterogeneity of racial groups, but rather to document and analyze predominant *patterns* of behavior, and the socio-historical reality of racial oppression and white privilege that we find ourselves in both in the U.S. and globally) . So, let’s ask ourselves, how does a “model minority” ideology support the reproduction of racial oppression and white supremacy? Whom does this ideology ultimately serve? The myth is part of the dominant discourse in society *because,* among other purposes, it suggests that racism and racial oppression are NOT REAL – it “punishes” other groups of colors by saying, “see – Asians made it, racial oppression must not be an issue – why don’t you do better?” And, because it totally overshadows the structural forces that have facilitated the success of many Asians (the resources I discuss above), and those that have hindered black success (for example, the institutionalized racism of our educational system, which we all seem to agree is significant), it makes it look as if success or failure really does just come down to personal choices.
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Additionally, it encourages Asians to accept a “middleman” position in the society, because while they do face much discrimination and racism, they are encouraged to see themselves as different from other groups of color and not “rock the boat” lest they face a placement closer to blacks, as opposed to what some have termed “honorary white” status. And, of course, because this ideology can alienate groups of color from one another, it also often prevents their coalition-building against the true enemy, which is white supremacy (not neo-Nazis, but the white supremacy that has and continues to organize all major insitutions in the U.S., etc.).
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I know there’s more to say, but I’ll close for now cuz this is already gotten too long . . .
I’ve never realized that Asians were discriminated against. I have always know Asian people to be very quite and family oriented. However, I’m sure that maybe the Vietnamese people maybe looked at hard by some of the men that served in the Vietnam, and for good reason. I know men today that also suffer from PTSD from that war, and the only brother I have had been shot three times, and is paralyze in his left leg, and permanently disable. I guess, maybe because of World War Two and the Vietnam war there would be a little weariness from some of the Men in this country towards those classes of people. However, most people that don’t go through those kinds of experiences would not understand. In fact, my favorite neighbor is one of those sufferers as well, and he lost both legs from that war.. I don’t understand how people would not understand the feelings of some of these men. And, I’ve said many times before nobody will take the time to understand another persons plight unless is hits home. It seems that maybe research does not take into consideration of the “why” are these some of these people discriminated against, because there are as many reasons as there are people. We all do not fit into the same MOLD. We are a different and unique individuals because of our unique and different experiences. However, I may look at Asians different because I never had any bad experiences with those people because I did not stand in a jungle all day long, in a tree, dressed like at tree, waiting for them to come walking by, so we could shoot at each other. Imagine! I did not see my best buddy get blown into pieces after I just shared my last cigarette with them. Imagine! So, again, maybe there would be a little weariness from some of the MEN in this country towards those people, and I’m sure those people may “feel” the same way towards the MEN in this country as well. Imagine!
Thanks Jenni for your response. I agree that there is probably a ton of research out there that contradicts some of what we have been discussing. Somewhat recently (within the last several months if I recall) another post got side tracked into the Asian/model minority topic. I don’t remember the research presented but I what I walked away with was that their seemingly ‘perfect’ status in society – wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. Like I said, I don’t remember the specifics about the study, maybe crime or something, to it left a lasting impression.
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However, like you pointed out, much of our world views are based on anecdotal evidence, at best. From a scholar’s prospective, I can see were it is flawed to base an argument, and subsequent judgment, on one’s personal experiences. This is another thing that I have learned on this site to try and temper down those “personal stories” so they don’t get in the way of me seeing the larger picture. Having said that, I do think that airing out our experiences (not using them as weapons in an attempt to invalidate scientific research) is useful in that it offers a safe space to confront issues, such as stereotypes like the one we are discussing. In my mind, what causes a point of contention is ‘Why are my [and come whites] experiences and the research correlating?’ ‘Why has it almost never correlated?’
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When you speak about not “demonizing” whites, I don’t think that it’s the intent of this site or the scholars that write here. But much like racism that is unintentional, is still racism – this too is very akin to demonizing, in that no positives regarding race-relations are mentioned. I know, I know. This site isn’t intended for that purpose. But, don’t be surprised when people feel that way.
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Getting back to Model Minority Theme: Imo, this is a just a stereotype. In my previous post I mentioned that it’s not all false, as some stereotypes are not totally false. My point is that why would we give a positive light on Asians and not other minorities? I have a few ideas but would be interested to here yours, Jenni, or any others.
* Geez, I didn’t proof read that post very good. Sorry for the typos!
Mose of the Asian people that I know don’t collect food stamps and welfare. Most of them own their own businesses and are very dependent on their families if they need help. Most children are either encouraged to go to school or get a job. There is a big difference in some of the Asian religions depending on what part of Asia you are from. The Asian people’s religious views plays a big part on how they view themselves and the world around them. I know HINDU Asian people that are some of the most interesting people that you would want to talk to, and I do. LOL However, there are Asians that believe in other religions like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, which like I said, depending what part of Asia they are from may be why they are viewed differently, and in a much more positive way. I like to read about all the different religions of the world, and have found that HINDU are about the most open minded people on our planet. However, some of the other religions like Buddhism is a spiritual religion, as well, as the HINDU. I find, that most Asian are very in tuned with what they believe in. I don’t edit my writing that much, so I can only imagine what y’all think, but I really do try to get my point across..
@ Jenni and Siss:
Love Both you guys..so don’t anybody take anything as ellen’s a creep..{even though sometimes I do think about strangling my ex-boyfriend.lol}
Siss said: ‘When you speak about not “demonizing” whites, I don’t think that it’s the intent of this site or the scholars that write here. But much like racism that is unintentional, is still racism – this too is very akin to demonizing, in that no positives regarding race-relations are mentioned.’
I have to say Jenni, this exactly reflects my sentiments. I don’t think the administration’s intent is at all to demonize whites, but rather to ask us to view Racism as a construct and ‘whiteness’ as a construct that can lead to robotic sometimes subconscious racism. However, many commentators on here seem to truely Hate White People. I have had numerous altercations with people who Would Not Cut Me the Slightest Slack..as in ‘You just said that cause you’re white’ {and I hadn’t even been talking about race!} and ‘You just think that cause you’re white’ etc.
Not everything out of my mouth is due to my ‘whiteness’ as not everything out of a black person’s mouth is due to his/her ‘blackness’. Truth to tell, black citizens would be up in arms if anyone said to them, ‘You just said that cause you’re black’, ‘You just think that cause you’re black’.
Personal experiences, as Siss pointed out, will Never Be Dismissed by individuals. You can’t ‘Erase’ what somebody observes and has felt on a daily basis. This site staunchly supports what blacks Feel and Experience on a daily basis; are a white person’s experiences any less valid? I have personally experienced Asians who I work with Vehemently Push Their Children toward educational persuits. This is an admirable trait.
For whatever reason, I have seen approximately 50% of the white students I’ve worked with really push themselves in the classroom. The other half are relatively indifferent. I have also seen approximately 50% of the black kids really push themselves in the classroom. The other half are relatively indifferent. In regard to Asians? 95% push themselves in the classroom. Studies are perfectly fine, but as long as I’ve been in this profession, it’s impossible for me to discount Years and Years of observation.
@ siss – Thanks for your thoughtful response. To your questions as to why create “positive” stereotypes around Asians, the seeds of that answer are in my response above (i.e. it encourages Asians to accept a “middleman” position in society, it distances Asians from other groups of color to prevent coalition-building, and most importantly, it is used against other people of color to invalidate their (legitimate) claims re: racism).
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One scholar, Claire Jean Kim, argues that Asian Americans are “racially triangulated” in the U.S. racial hierarchy – that is, whites (as the major power and dominant ideology brokers in society) grant them a place above blacks and Latinos on the hierarchical “ladder,” but still position them below whites, particularly as regards their “foreignness” (hence Asian Americans who’ve been here for generations being asked “where are you from?”; or the figureskating headline back in the 2000 Olympics, “American beats out Kwan” – although Michelle Kwan is an American, the headline “otherizes” her as outside the American umbrella, etc.). Again, this triangulation serves to protect and maintain white power while also invalidating the reality of racial oppression. It cannot be overstated how powerful the “if Asians made it why can’t blacks and Latinos” sentiment is in perpetuating the belief that racism is not a major factor in American life.
Jenni Said: “if Asians made it why can’t blacks and Latinos”?
Despite what some may have inferred from my post: I am actually Not an advocate of this type of thinking. It’s much too simplistic and simply not fair. Plus, the triangulation theory was interesting. Thank you.
I think it’s hard for me {because of the way I was raised} to visualize whites deliberately placing Asians on checkerboard square # 2 and Blacks and Latinos on checkerboard square # 3..as if whites had this God-like power.
I was raised in a business family where the World of Business dominated the discussion at the dinner table. The only thing that won respect in our house was ‘Entrepreneurial Smarts’. This meant that my parents admired Any race that worked in our town and ‘made it.’ They started out with nothing..no accumulated wealth..and became relatively successful. But They Were White of course.
They never made racist jokes, very much encouraged education in {especially } history, and pretty much held the philosophy ‘you get whatever you’re willing to settle for’ and ‘if you want to make it, you’ve got to work harder than the average guy’. No sympathy was alloted to the ‘whiners’. I did not see ‘Power Brokers’ cause my parents obviously did not have this kind of power! Thus, when I think of institutionalized racism, there’s a voice inside of me that says, ‘yeah..but my family did not do this.’
I think this is the problem with trying to sell many well-intentioned whites with feeling guilty regarding racism. They come home exhausted from working and then are asked to feel guilty. I understand your points Jenni, I’m merely stating another observation.
Question? If anybody could answer, I’d really appreciate this and I’m not being a smart b***, but I would really like to know who are the “whites” that your always talking about. Is it all whites? Is it whites in politics? Is it white men? Are they whites from a certain ethnic group? (I think this may be the answer). I know a lot of white people that don’t put as much energy into half these topics because they really don’t have the time, but obviously, some white people do. I would like to know who these people are. Again, I come to you with a question of curiosity or lack of understanding and not with contempt. Thanks
I guess I was heading in another direction in re to positive aspects. Those things you mentioned both now and in your prior post seem to be unconscience motives (from white supremacy), ie the postion on the latter.
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What I was getting at was the conscience and tangible traits that are more appealing to whites than other persons of color. Since we are discussing education, I’ll use that as an example. Why does it *seem* (key word)that Asians do study more, do better on exams, have better discipline in the classroom and home, etc. Why would we think this if at least some of it wasnt true? Granted, I’m certain that there is a lot we don’t see….
OK..here’s what’s problematic when discussing racism. Where does the institutionalized racism Stop and the personal responsibility Start? This is a Huge and Perplexing Challenge.
I think black students should receive Every Possible Break. They should have beautiful facilities, an abundance of text books, first rate teaching staff. Agree wholeheartedly..always have. However, black kids have to do their homework, pay attention in class, not be disruptive and actively participate in the teaching process. There’s a point at which nobody should assign blame as in ‘well,where they live isn’t conducive to doing homework’ or ‘well, his/her mother doesn’t help with homework’ or ‘well, in his/her family scholastic achievement isn’t a priority’. Well, who’s going to make it a priority?
Aren’t blacks responsible for Any of their Behavior or should we look the other way at all problematic actions? Because we can do this in an academic setting Forever. Fact is, this is infantilizing millions and millions of adult black Americans.
I had a commentator on here state once {after I pointed out that slavery existed in Africa for thousands of years before white Europeans brought it to America} that ‘slavery in Africa was kinder than the slavery practiced in America.’ So, when black men practice slavery, it’s kind. But when white men practice slavery it’s cruel? Slavery is Slavery. Ask the poor individual who’s enslaved. I think he’d agree.
I pointed out that the ACORN video was revealing of government monies being poured into an organization that was {in some instances..3 different tapes shown in 3 different cities} abusing and mis-using funds. I suggested investigating {not Closing Down!} Acorn.
Also, would it have hurt the employees One Iota to refuse service to the prostitute? No. I was criticized repeatedly for taking this stance. I was accused of ‘helping the Right’. If the Right uses this for political castigation, then shame on them. However, I will not condone Human Trafficking..that’s Personal Responsibility. The ACORN employees had a choice..they chose to aid and abet human trafficking of under-age girls. Would you want these women to babysit your children? Why? Cause you’re a Racist, or because their personal values don’t reflect your personal values?
I think ACORN is a great organization. But it needs to help the citizens it was intended to help. I want my tax dollars to support the ACORN that was instituted to help poor people obtain loans, not aid prostitutes.
Again: where does racism stop and personal responsibility kick in? Any responses? Time and again, this issue arises.
I feel personal responsibility kicks in when the individual has no other choice then to be responsible. Unfortunately, not many people of all races know the true meaning of be responsible for themselves. I am not talking about responsibility with the world, I’m more inclined to think being responsible is on a personal level like your behavior with other people. Meaning the only person that can be responsible for you, is you. I see so many people from all class, race, religions, etc including, scholars etc. that eagerly point the finger at someone for their misfortunes, and not look at themselves for any thing that they may have done to aggravate the situation.. There are so many, many people from all social class and race that do this that it is a normal reaction for most human beings on the planet. There are not too many people that sit back and analyzes a situation, and try to figure out if they had done something wrong, and try to correct what they did wrong to make it a right. NO the average person don’t care, as long as they feel they are right even though they may be wrong, so they can win money, fame, or a useless argument with a friend, family, or anybody else. This all has to do with the ego of a human being. Unless a person feels enough personal pain on a personal level they will always be right, and never look at themselves in any other way, until proven wrong. This is “human nature”. However, as far as ACRON those people have lived that was since they probably were born and what they are doing in normal to them. Unless, of course they are told it’s wrong or suffer from the consequence of their actions, (this involve pain), so they could be more responsible for themselves, otherwise, they will continue to behave that way because it’s normal for them. I see many people that live in upper society all over the world that do things to people that are wrong, but nobody will say your wrong, so they continue to behave that way. Being responsible for yourself is a very personal decision that a persons makes for themselves, unfortunately, it takes great pain for a person the “wake up”, and change the way they are treating other people, and the start living a more responsible life. Responsibility comes on many levels not just paying bills, going to school, paying taxes etc. Those things will following after a person learns how to be responsible for themselves first.
I guess, nobody answered my question, maybe, because I must search for it myself? That’s OK I am used to doing research. I will come back an tell you the answer when I find it. Thanks:)
Correction: Responsibility comes on many levels not just paying bills, going to school, paying taxes etc. However, for some people, those things will follow after a person learns how to be responsible for themselves first.
Those people that learn this simple thought of responsibility turn out to be the best that society has to offer. Maybe this is what Jesus was talking about when he said “And the last shall come first” 
@ellen: That is a great question that often gets overlooked when proposed in an anti-racist conversation. I, too, have thought about this. As for an answer, I don’t think we will find a cut and dry one.
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Some may argue that a child’s personal environment has a serious influence over other factors like discipline, motivation, etc. While I agree, and have seen those effects first hand with one of my nephews, that still doesn’t exonerate the child from all responsibility. I think that in the grey area of when, like ellen mentioned, is what needs to generate more discussion and analysis.
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If each child is different, in terms of maturity, degree of environmental degradation, personal self-worth, etc., how do we set a standard of when racism stops and responsibility starts? And in additional to how, should we draw a line? My answer is yes we should, but as for how we go about tackling this problem…. That’s where I get stuck!
Most court rooms in this country take into consideration of “mitigating circumstance”. In other words, a lot of Judge’s use this when they make the final judgment of a persons sentencing. Mitigating Circumstance should be used when addressing a persons level of responsibility as well. I feel this would be the fairest way when looking at the person/child/individual. The problem is that most people do not look at a person’s mitigating circumstance. Maybe this could be a way that we as a society could look at the responsibility level of a persons behavior in all fairness. There are no “bad” people, however, there are bad behaviors, of some people. Unless, of course, the people are criminally insane. There are a lot of techniques that could be used to change the behavior of a lot of people, but the way I see it, is that most people don’t really want to take the time and help. I’ve seen many teacher’s that observe a child with some hyper behavior, and complain about that child then the next thing you know the child is medicated/labeled for the rest of their lives. A lot has changed over the years, and there are many people labeling children that are not qualified to do so. However, if they actually looked beyond the child’s behavior, and found out the way the child was living, then maybe, there could be a behavior modification programs set up to help those children cope with stress in their lives that they have no control over as child. Also, that would avoid the labels, which I feel, destroys a child self esteem, and on top of what that child may be going through at home. Geez! I feel it’s a lose, lose situation for a lot of children, especially, for children born into lower social economic environments. I guess, what I may be suggesting is to simple, but in all honesty, there are pharmaceutical companies making a lot of money off these labels that they place on a person…And, the quality of some of the teacher’s out there is very poor, and they would rather see a child medicated, as to avoid some work on their part then to actually help a child to achieve their fullest potential.
ellen said OK..here’s what’s problematic when discussing racism. Where does the institutionalized racism Stop and the personal responsibility Start? This is a Huge and Perplexing Challenge.
I have heard this type of question many times, and I think I understand the sentiment. But I’m going to address what I think are some problematic assumptions and implications of this question.
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First, institutional racism doesn’t “stop” anywhere. Preferences for whites are embedded in the normal operating procedures of every institutional force in our society. (Joe Feagin explains this well in his books Racist America and Systemic Racism.)
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Second, this question implies that people of color are sorely lacking in personal responsibility and this contributes to their lesser outcomes. Personally I’ve never felt comfortable telling people whose lives I’ve never lived that they’re doing a bad job dealing with their circumstances.
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Third, the question implies that people of color don’t assume responsibility for their outcomes. Ethnographic studies consistently demonstrate that poor folks and people of color tend to attribute their failures and difficulties to their own shortcomings. This is the great tragedy of your question – people of color blame themselves nearly as much as the mainstream society does. You can bet that every Sunday countless sermons are preached in black churches about the need for black people to fix all the problems plaguing black communities. People *are* taking responsibility.
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Fourth, the question gets confused over where power lies and how it operates. Let’s not let ourselves naively believe that people in destitute situations have a huge ability to control their life chances.
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(Regarding my second, third, and fourth points, I highly recommend Jay MacLeod’s ethnography Ain’t No Makin’ It. It illustrates very acutely how institutional racism can throw up insurmountable barriers in front of the most motivated, achievement-oriented, inner-city black males.)
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Fifth, what about white people’s “personal responsibility?” Say, responsibility to start giving black men a fair chance for jobs, or responsibility for addressing our racial privileges. The question implies that white people’s outcomes are not in fact directly tied to people of color’s – for example, for centuries wealth has flowed from communities of color into the hands of white families and white institutions. We are all personally invested in the current state of our racial affairs. You can’t ask people of color to “take responsibility” unless you ask it of everyone.
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Sixth, the question assumes that, even if we do everything we can to address institutional racism, it may not be enough. I believe it will. Take a good look at the history of white ethnic immigration to the U.S. – the experiences of Irish Americans, for example. It becomes clear that when people are given access to opportunities enjoyed by the mainstream and stop being discriminated against, they adapt accordingly, and their outcomes rise slowly to rival the dominant group. In other words, it is causal in one direction.
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Last – and most important – it is a fine question for philosophical pondering, I suppose. However, when it comes to deciding what we are going to do as a society to address racial inequality, this question can distract from the *known* task at hand – namely, that institutional racism is real and we have a responsibility to work to eradicate it. Period.
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Along this line, we must acknowledge that (white) institutions alone hold the power to root our institutional racism. People of color, through their efforts at personal accomplishment, cannot accomplish this.
Thanks saves me time to research. I forget a lot fast…:)
Your last question was very interesting. I suppose by identifying a problem first would be the answer. Only when people find out there is a problem; then people can try to find a solution. Most average people walking around don’t know anything about these topics. However, how do you propose to “spread the word”. As far as institutional racism who are the people responsible for dishing out equality? Are they the same people that don’t know about the “white racial frame” of thinking? I am for all people not just a chosen few, so how could you expect the millions of people that are born into this society that don’t have a clue about being brainwashed into a certain way of thinking, and try to fix the problem.. However, I feel that any person that discovers this problem has a responsibly to try to make a difference in the way that they behave, but to expect millions of people to change that don’t know that a problem exist is kinda wishing on a star. I don’t mean to be rude, but this is the reality of how society is. And, there will come a day that this discussion will not matter anymore. However, when you stated that Black people go to church every Sunday and try to act like responsible people, that’s good. There are many white people that do the same, but do know about what’s going on outside their own lives. There is no philosophical answer to the question, but some common sense may be all that is needed. The answer how do you expect society to change a problem when society dose not know that there is a problem . And, no fault of their own if they have been brainwashed from birth. Maybe the answer is as old a man himself. Until people wake up and realize that we all need each other for our own survival there will always be problems between people. The “white frame” is not a moral issue it’s a control issue. There are a lot of good people walking around out there that would treat everybody the same. I guess they are the ones that think for themselves. Patience!
@ MOM:
Wow! President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize! Are you thrilled or What! This is so huge..I’m still trying to digest it. Well, this will Make a Huge Difference in the way he’s perceived by racists, don’t you think? I mean, they Have to Acknowledge this! I feel very gratified. There is Good in the World After all.
First, I want to thank Kristen for chiming into our conversation – I haven’t had a chance to respond to some of the points that ellen and Mom and siss posted, but one of the things I wanted to respond to was the question ellen raised about where personal responsibility and structural matters meet. I think Kristen’s “unpacking” some of the blind spots to these matters is entirely spot on – while I, like Kristen, understand where the sentiment comes from – as I said in one of my previous posts, it is part of the common discourse of society to focus most strictly on personal responsibility because of the belief that we have an open system where hard work=success with no accounting for the structural issues we raise here. Because I know this in the sociology and race courses I teach I always say that “hard work” is always gonna be important but that we are going to focus on the places where structure reinforces or fails to reinforce our hard work – the irony is, of course, that racial, gender, class and other privileges often mean that hard work and responsibility are *less* important for some people because they have important social connections, favorable status in the larger society, wealth, etc. (so, e.g., George Bush gets to be president of the U.S. despite being highly mediocre; white boys who get into trouble as teenagers are often excused under the reasoning “boys will be boys” while black boys are rarely excused so easily, etc.)
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I also wanted to address one the concerns that ellen and siss discussed, and particularly ellen’s sentiment regarding white guilt. @ ellen – I appreciate the points you make, and I think a lot of white people relate to what you are saying – I want to be very clear that most people of color and antiracists are not asking whites to feel guilty. Guilt tends to be unproductive and stiffling, and thus, most people I talk to see it as an obstacle to progress. I believe most people of color and antiracists at a minimum simply want white people to acknowledge that racism exists – to acknowledge the importance of our racist past, to acknowledge the prevalence of contemporary racial issues, the reality of everyday racial oppression and the fact of institutional racism – to stop resisting that these things are real, and, even better, to work toward delivering on America’s promise of equal opportunity.
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I’ve often wondered why, when I was first learning about racism and white privilege, I did not feel personally defensive about it, as a white person – I wish I knew, because I find it to be the most common reaction from white people that I talk to, and creates intense resistance – I believe we have demonstrated we are beyond that in our discussion here, but I do generally believe that these defensive reactions from many white people are part of the white racial frame that Joe discusses. It becomes a way to shut down conversation and worse, action.
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Now, to tap into mom’s point above, when I’ve heard Joe speak he often responds to white people re: this issue of guilt by saying something like the following: “It’s not our fault that we’re in this mess we’re in – we didn’t create the racist foundation of this country, but we’ve inherited it, and so now we have the responsibility of making things better.” (he’s much more eloquent than I’m being here, but this is the general sentiment).
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Mom raises the important point that one of the major obstacles is that many people are not aware of these matters – I would agree but add that unfortunately many people are not simply ignorant and unaware, but are actively resistant. ellen also added the point that some white people don’t feel connected to these issues because they don’t see how they or their families are personally complicit – I grew up in a white family that operated much as yours, ellen – but as Kristen well-stated, to recognize that racism is institionalized means understanding that white privileges are embedded into the normal operating procedures of the institutions of society – as whites we do not have to engage explicit racist behavior to nonetheless receive the “spoils” of living in a racist society. My comment is getting too long, but there are many examples I could provide of this if it would be helpful.
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Nonetheless, the reason we come here and blog, or teach and research on racism and white supremacy, or go out and work toward ending racial oppression is because we have to keep sounding the gong. We keep talking about it to “spread the gospel” so to speak.
I always say that “hard work” is always gonna be important but that we are going to focus on the places where structure reinforces or fails to reinforce our hard work – the irony is, of course, that racial, gender, class and other privileges often mean that hard work and responsibility are *less* important for some people because they have important social connections, favorable status in the larger society, wealth, etc. (so, e.g., George Bush gets to be president of the U.S. despite being highly mediocre; white boys who get into trouble as teenagers are often excused under the reasoning “boys will be boys” while black boys are rarely excused so easily, etc.)
Bravo! Bravo! However, what your touching on everybody from all races suffer. I am going through something right now regarding these “good old boys”. This is what I’ve been trying to say when I talk about “the white elitist men” in this country.
Mom raises the important point that one of the major obstacles is that many people are not aware of these matters – I would agree but add that unfortunately many people are not simply ignorant and unaware, but are actively resistant.
I feel, I know what your talking about, however, rather then being resistant wouldn’t be more like survival?.. If a white person got a job because he was white, and the black person did not get it because he was black doesn’t the white guy still have the same responsibility to raise his family as the black person does? Does this make any sense? LOL .However, because of the post above not all white men fall under that category and are out trying to survive themselves, and take care of their families. I think this really is a matter of survival on this level. I work with a real mix of people. My company does not discriminate when it come to hiring people. In fact. they are looking to hire more Spanish people because we need interpreters. However, I don’t get chosen when it comes time to work cases because some “people”may know somebody that works in the front office. I got my job because of my work ethic, and that’s why the Company keeps calling me back, but me, and other people, don’t get a lot of the same hours, which we need to live, as maybe some other people that do because they “know people”. I feel that’s kind of discriminating. Believe me when I tell you this that I and other people work very hard for are money in comparison to other people that work there. (the ones that know people) Wouldn’t this be a form of racism? I am grateful that you teach the course, so maybe you could help me understand a little better. Maybe a few examples would be nice.
Now, to tap into mom’s point above, when I’ve heard Joe speak he often responds to white people re: this issue of guilt by saying something like the following: “It’s not our fault that we’re in this mess we’re in – we didn’t create the racist foundation of this country, but we’ve inherited it, and so now we have the responsibility of making things better.” (he’s much more eloquent than I’m being here, but this is the general sentiment).
This sounds to me when people find out about the topic of what’s being discussed. Really there are not many people that know about “white racial frame” However, I do know people that are racist. I know people that don’t like people of color because of many other things maybe this is what you are talking about…Most racist people will say things like black people are lazy, don’t want to work, dress funny, etc. And, in reality too me it’s for immature reasons. However, that’s how I perceive racist people to be. My Mother is not a racist person period. My Mother sees good and bad in people like right now she’s having some problems with her “white” neighbor, but loves her “black” neighbor. My Mother may judge a person by their character before the color of their skin. I think she would have a hard time with this topic because of the fact that she has buried five kids. How do you suppose that I tell her that she is racist/brainwashed from birth. I believe a person is the way they are from past experience, and not all people may fall into same mold. However, that does not mean that there in not institutionalized racism, but a few examples as mentioned before would be nice. Thanks
[...] written here (and elsewhere) about various forms of cyber racism, including what I’ve called ‘Facebook racism,’ at the popular social networking site. Now, there’s another form of racism online [...]
I’ll give my opinion on Racism and bow out:
I believe that racism is a “Divide and Conquer” tool that has proved useful time and time again to divert from what would be more serious issues.
Racism will not end whilst there are illegal wars to fight, unelected politicians in positions of power, lobbyists dictating to politicians what their policies should be.
I believe it to be a real shame that the current POTUS couldn’t have been an honest man, but skin colour/race is irrelevant here, and if you find it relevant then you are part of the problem.
I know some here are going to assume I am yet again trying to “undermine evidence of racism” but, I like to fact check. Everything that is reported in the media is not accurate. So, here is another perspective.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/1209/Secret_Service_Threat_level_against_Obama_no_greater_than_under_Bush_Clinton.html
You may not like the leanings of the “politico,” so I deliberately am not quoting from the article itself. The video is what I am actually pointing you towards, it is short, but enlightening.
[...] is no constitutionally protecting right to have a racist group on Facebook. And, given the threat to the president implied by the image linked above, I’m surprised [...]