Since several folks have asked lately about the systemic racism and white racial frame concepts, let me repeat a revised version of what I have posted a year or more ago. The North American system of racial oppression grew out of extensive European and European American exploitation of indigenous peoples and African Americans. It has long encompassed these dimensions: (1) a white racial framing of society with its racist ideology and other key elements; (2) whites’ discriminatory actions and an enduring racial hierarchy grounded in material exploitation; and (3) pervasively racist institutions maintained by discriminatory whites over centuries. White-generated oppression is far more than individual bigotry, for it has from the beginning been a material, social, and ideological reality. For four centuries North American racism has been systemic–that is, it has been manifested in all major societal institutions.
In the books Systemic Racism and The White Racial Frame I develop the concept of a white racial frame holistically and comprehensively. Since its development in the 17th century, this racial frame has been a “master frame,” a dominant framing that provides a generic meaning system for the racialized society that became the United States. The white racial frame provides the vantage point from which European American oppressors have long viewed North American society. In this racial framing, whites have combined racial stereotypes (the verbal-cognitive aspect), metaphors and interpretive concepts (the deeper cognitive aspect), images (the strong visual aspect), emotions (feelings), and narratives (historical myths like “manifest destiny of whites to spread across the country”), and routine inclinations to discriminatory action. This frame buttresses, and grows out of the material reality of racial oppression. The complex of racial hierarchy, material oppression, and the rationalizing white racial frame constitute what I term systemic racism. This white racial frame includes much more than the usual somewhat weak concepts most scholars and popular analysts use in the study of US racial matters, such as stereotyping, prejudice, and bigoted discrimination.
The white racial frame has long been propagated and held by most white Americans–and even, in part, accepted by many people of color. For most whites, the racial frame is deeply held, with many stored “bits,” including stereotyped knowledge, racial images and understandings, racial emotions, and racial interpretations. Not all whites use the dominant frame to the same extent, and in everyday practice there are multiple variations. By constantly using selected bits of the dominant racial frame to interpret society, by integrating new items into it, and by applying its stereotypes, images, and interpretations in many discriminatory actions, whites imbed their racialized frame deeply in their minds.
Take this key example from the early development of the dominant white racial frame. Among the self-named “whites,” who also named “black” and “Indian” Americans, were US founders Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington. They had conceptions of black Americans as very inferior to white Americans, who were seen as greatly superior in civilization. In Jefferson’s only major book, Notes on the State of Virginia, the white framing of African Americans is fiercely racist: enslaved black Americans smell funny, are natural slaves, are less intelligent, are uglier in skin color, are lazy, are oversexed, not as sophisticated in serious music, cannot learn advanced knowledge, and can never be well-integrated into white America.
This dominant racial frame was, and still is, designed by whites to rationalize an extensive system of racial oppression, with its central racial hierarchy, one with whites on top. The old racial hierarchy is rooted in coercive exploitation and resource inequality and is rationalized by the deeply held white racial frame. First centered on African Americans, and to some extent Native Americans, the white racial framing placed later groups of color–such as Chinese Americans after the 1850s and Mexican Americans after the 1840s–well down the already dominant racial hierarchy. Whites were central from the beginning to creating the North American system of racial oppression and its dominant racist frame, including all key words (“white,” “black,” and almost all racist epithets) and interpretations in that frame. Today, as in the past, the white racial frame is not just in the United States, but is fundamentally constitutive of it.
In our book, Two Faced Racism Leslie Picca and I give many examples of the contemporary white racial frame in daily operation. We collected journals from 626 white students at 28 colleges and universities in various regions. They were asked to record (for, on average, about 6-9 weeks) observations of everyday events in their lives that revealed racial issues, images, and understandings. In these relatively brief diaries these white students gave us got more than 7,500 accounts of blatantly or obviously racist commentary and actions by white friends, acquaintances, relatives, and strangers, much of it in backstage areas. In addition, about 300 students of color at these same colleges gave us another 4000 accounts of clearly racist events that happened to them and their friends or relatives.
Their everyday accounts offer many insights into how the white racial frame works today. Here, for example, is one of thousands of extended racial events from the diaries, this one about an evening party of six white students at a midwestern college. Trevor, a white student, reports on a typical evening gathering:
When any two of us are together, no racial comments or jokes are ever made. However, with the full group membership present, anti-Semitic jokes abound, as do racial slurs and vastly derogatory statements. . . . Various jokes concerning stereotypes . . . were also swapped around the gaming table, everything from “How many Hebes fit in a VW beetle?” to “Why did the Jews wander the desert for forty years?” In each case, the punch lines were offensive, even though I’m not Jewish. The answers were “One million (in the ashtray) and four (in the seats)” and “because someone dropped a quarter,” respectively. These jokes degraded into a rendition of the song “Yellow,” which was re-done to represent the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. It contained lines about the shadows of the people being flash burned into the walls (“and it was all yellow” as the chorus goes in the song).
There is nothing subtle about these racist performances. Trevor continues with yet more performances:
A member of the group also decided that he has the perfect idea for a Hallmark card. On the cover it would have a few kittens in a basket with ribbons and lace. On the inside it would simply say “You’re a nigger.” I found that incredibly offensive. Supposedly, when questioned about it, the idea of the card was to make it as offensive as humanly possible in order to make the maximal juxtaposition between warm- and ice- hearted. After a brief conversation about the cards which dealt with just how wrong they were, a small kitten was drawn on a piece of paper and handed to me with a simple, three-word message on the back. . . . Of course, no group is particularly safe from the group’s scathing wit, and the people of Mexico were next to bear the brunt of the jokes. A comment was made about Mexicans driving low-riding cars so they can drive and pick lettuce at the same time. Comments were made about the influx of illegal aliens from Mexico and how fast they produce offspring.
All white male participants here are well educated. Notice the many aspects of the white racial frame, with its subframes negatively targeting an array of groups of color, as well as Jewish Americans (apparently seen as not quite “white”). Notice the great “fun” these educated whites are having as part of this recurring social gathering. Note too the different roles played by whites in this one racialized evening. There are the protagonists performing assertively for an all-white audience. Some appear also as cheerleading assistants, with the recording student apparently acting as a passive bystander or perhaps a mild dissenter. No one, however, openly remonstrates with the active protagonists. Four types of white actions in one room.
The contemporary white racial frame as revealed in such everyday performances has great implications for most nooks and crannies of society.
Another key idea I suggest in the WRF book is that of resistance and counter-framing. Counter-frames are grounded in counter-system thinking and have been important for groups of color to survive and resist oppression over many generations. Certain leaders and thinkers in racially oppressed groups, such as W. E. B. Du Bois and Frantz Fanon, have developed articulated counter-frames, but so do ordinary people, the “organic intellectuals” in these oppressed groups. In these resistance/anti-racism counter-frames whites are defined as problematical, and ideas and strategies on how to deal with whites and white institutions are developed. Among other things, a developed counter-frame includes understandings of how discrimination and racial hostility work, examples of dealing with discriminatory whites from family and friends, and teachings about safety and various passive and active strategies of resistance to a variety of white discriminators.
Are only whites racist, or can others be , too? Is the racism you claim America is built in present in other places, where other races are in the numerical majority? And in America, are other races prejudiced or bigoted toward whites?
In other words, is the problem as you see it that whites are particularly racist, or are they simply the ones in charge in this time and place — the ones who built the frame? Do you imagine a country without racism, or one where racists of other races are able to assert themselves?
Joe, did you leave out parts of the jokes, or is it that I’m just not familiar with the stereotypes enough to know what Arabs (Hebes, right?) have to do with cigarettes or what cats have to do with black people.
What’s funny is that chances are, Trevor and all his friends would become indignant at the accusation that they’re racist. And maybe they wouldn’t burn a cross in someone’s yard, and they clearly know when and when not to make these jokes, but it’s these types of attitudes/thinking that lead to lending discrimination and employment discrimination, etc. Also, when you consider standardized tests, including New Haven’s firefighter test, part of the racial frame is that it’s the only “right” way to learn and understand. Also, these stories should demonstrate to those whites who “just don’t see” or who would say to a black friend, “What if you’re overreacting,” why these attempts to downplay racism are rebuffed.
A couple more questions about these racist jokes. 1 – I saw GUESS WHO when Ashton Kutcher’s character goes through 3 or 4 jokes he’s heard from friends and family. In that regard, my question is the same as Bernie Mac’s: do white people sit around and just come up with this stuff? 2 – I grew up in a very religious (black, so not “fundamentalists”) family and things were very clean cut. That in addition to my teacher mother could maybe explain why I don’t know of any comparable set of “whitey” jokes. My question is, is there a comparable set of “whitey” jokes? I’m familiar with the stereotypes we have about white people: that they’re crazy and do idiotic things like bungee jumping; white kids get a way with much more disrespect to their elders than black kids are bold enough to dream about; white people smell like dogs when they’re wet. I’m familiar with all those stereotypes. But I don’t know any jokes.
Darin, those are all interesting questions, and too many to answer here. See the books there that I mention, and then try one good question at a time, and I will try to answer it. We in the USA have a systemically racist society that was begun on a foundation of 246 years of slavery, which was followed by nearly a century of the near slavery of Jim Crow segregation. About 85 percent of our history is extreme racial oppression, with lasting effects in most nooks and crannies of this society to the present day. We still live under a US Constitution made by slaveholders, just to take one example. Most Whites today tend to ignore or play down that heavy foundation and recent past of extreme racial oppression. It is a heavy burden on the present as the many accounts on this site indicate. (The most famous black scholar in the US, at Harvard, was just profiled and arrested by the Cambridge police at his own home, for example.) It is important to dig deeply into racism in our country, and not to let the reality of problems elsewhere sidetrack us or deflect a thorough study of our own situation. We social scientists and other researchers and analysts have yet to do the complete study of our own racist reality in the US. That is what I and other scholars/researchers on this site have tried to contribute to.
….No!KState, those are good issues too. It is significant that there are thousands of racist jokes by whites about Blacks and other people of color, but so few about whites among people of color. The interviews I have done suggest your experience is typical of black Americans, few or no white jokes. And the commentaries the Black respondents make in our interviews about whites, while sometimes stereotyped, are most typically linked to accounts they give us of discriminatory incidents they or their families have had with whites. That is, black views of whites tend to be out of daily experience, while most whites’ stereotyped views of blacks tend to be from lack of experience, primarily from the media, peers, or racist jokes, etc. I have seen no good research on this, so it is wide open for anyone looking for a good research project.
This is not such a far-fetched idea: [“white kids get a way with much more disrespect to their elders than black kids are bold enough to dream about”] It is true. And sad.
No1 & Joe, on jokes that target whites–
Several years ago in a used book store I came across a little book called Truly Tasteless Jokes by Blance Knott. I just checked Amazon, and there are over 12 different volumes in print, with millions of copies sold.
The book jacket promised to poke fun at everyone equally, with chapters devoted to jokes about the mentally retarded, Mexicans, black people, etc. There was even a chapter on WASPs. But after reading a little further, I was disgusted and bought the book just so that no one else could read it.
The chapter on African Americans was lengthy and extremely offensive, and many of the jokes about other groups just amounted to cracks on black people. But most telling was the section on WASPs, where the style of jokes completely changed and were NOT about poking fun at whites, but about showing how normal and superior they were. For example: How many WASPs does it take to screw in a lightbulb? One.
Joe, I can appreciate you not wanting to answer every question I ask, and I’m sure you’ll appreciate that I may not read the books. Both of us have limited time. So I’ll appreciate any discussion you’re willing to engage in, and maybe some other posters will also comment.
I guess there are three fundamental points I’m getting at.
First, just because the people who created a system maybe have been racists, that does not mean that the system itself is necessarily racist. For example, LEAN process was invented by the Japanese, but it’s been applied world wide in manufacturing. Analogously, the fact that the US Constitution was written by slaveholders is irrelevant to the question of whether its any good. To prove there’s racism (at least to people who aren’t already convinced) you have to go a step further and actually identify racist activity. Notice that I said “activity,” not “outcome.”
That’s the second point: disparities in outcome do not imply racism. Just because there aren’t many white basketball players does not mean that the NBA is racist. Maybe the inputs vary among races. They obviously do when it comes to physical abilities, and it would be surprising to find that they do not also vary in other areas, such as personality and behavior. Furthermore, there are cultural factors that may lead to disparity. An example is language barriers among some groups that can skew statistical performance.
The third point is that it’s not enough to curse the darkness, you must also be willing to light a candle. And you must also offer a reasonable assurance that the candle you’re lighting won’t burn the place down. In other words: What’s your alternative? And how do we know your alternative will be any better?
I want to be clear that my argument is not that there’s no trace of racism to be found anywhere. I suspect racism is vary common, among all races, toward all other races. That seems to be the general rule throughout history, and I have no reason to assume things are different here and now. My issues are more pragmatic.
1. Does it matter from a practical rather than moral perspective? Is it really holding people back in a meaningful sense?
2. Can anything be done about it, anyway?
3. If anything can be done, how do we know it won’t just make matters worse? For example, much of the effect of affirmative action programs has been poisonous. It’s not at all obvious to me that the benefits outweigh the costs, even for racial minorities.
@Darin, any examination of various institutions in our society will provide sufficient evidence that the system is racist (the criminal justice or education systems come to mind). Our “founding fathers” got the ball rolling; now some might say we’re trapped in the “iron cage,” regardless of individuals defending its racist practices (though plenty of evidence shows they do).
My guess is that well over 95% of the people who need to be convinced of the reality of racism are white. That makes since to the extent that they don’t experience racism. But. Mainstream America doesn’t question the LGBT community when they claim homophobia exists. Mainstream America doesn’t question feminists on the existance of sexism. Sure, lots of men may disagree about whether or not sexism negatively impacts women, but we mostly disregard them as sexist. What’s so different about the claims people of color make about racism that we have to convince anyone?
Here’s the alternative: stop racism and/or its effects. Is it better? Yes. Think about this. If every unemployed black man were given a job replacing a white man, who’s subsequently fired of course, that would only impact 1% of white male work force. And no one’s asking for that.
You’re right that disparity in outcome doesn’t prove disparity in opportunity. So what you do is a little more digging to find out what in fact is causing the disparity in outcome. That digging has been done since Dubois in the turn of the 20th century; the cause is racism.
As to your point about sports. I’m not sure there’s any actual data on this, but anecdotal evidence indicates that 1 – most people, including white people, have a bias against white Americans when it comes to their athletic ability. 2 – white teens also feel overmatched athletically and tend shift away from basketball and football. Despite that, there’re only 4 black coaches in Div 1 football; of the 32 NFL teams, there’re just 6 black starting quarterbacks, assuming Culpepper starts for Detroit, no Latinos as it doesn’t appear that either Sanchez or Garcia will be the starters on opening day; 6 black NFL coaches out of 32 teams; 1 black GM; 11 of 30 NBA head coaches were black; 1 was Asian. So even in sports, we see the effects of systemic racism.
@ Kristen and Joe- Thanks for the responses about the disparity in jokes.
@ siss – Well, at least you don’t smell like dogs when you’re wet. I’d say that’s a plus. LOL!
JDF, I don’t mean to be flip, but if that’s all you’ve got you guys will just be talking to each other forever. You can’t possibly expect to convince anybody who isn’t already convinced of the truth of your position based on statements like, “any examination of various institutions in our society will provide sufficient evidence that the system [whatever that is] is racist.”
I’ve spent my whole life “examining” various institutions, and let’s just say I’ve come conclusions very different from yours. Come to think of it, your premise that an institution can be racist apart from the people who comprise it is a little iffy. Why not be bold and just say, “all white people are racists” instead of pussyfooting around? I could at least respect that.
You say there’s plenty of evidence. Well, let’s have it then. What’s the most convincing piece?
more @ Darin – Yes, it’s holding people back. And affirmative action has been incredibly benefitial! The first person that jumps to mind is Pres. Obama. This whole notion that affirmative action promotes unqualified minorities over better qualified whites is just false. First off, it would be illegal. And second off, even that presumption maintains the idea of white superiority, as though there was some equality before affirmative action and now affirmative action is lifting unqualified people.
Before you race to that study on law schools, a lot of people question both the results and the interpretation of the results.
The primary beneficiaries of affirmative action as been white women. Taking into account that at least 75% of white women live in predominantly white communities, a very conservative estimate, most of the benefits of affirmative action have gone to white America.
Sorry, Darin, but another thought about these people who need to be “convinced.” The problem, as I see, isn’t that they haven’t heard the evidence. The problem is that they refuse to accept the evidence. Case in point, you. I can understand the disinclination to take time from a busy schedule to actually look into these things. But if you don’t have that time to take, you have to accept the finding of those who do. I can also imagine the threat honest equality poses to white Americans. But just because something doesn’t feel good doesn’t mean it’s not fair. We’re not going to solve racism by accomodating white attitudes about it. Racism already accomodates white attitudes and feelings. Will it feel good to whites not to enjoy the privilege of the assumption of superiority? Probably not. Tough. That’s justice.
I think you have a point that a disparate racial outcome doesn’t mean there was ill intent that created it, but it’s definitely a point from which to do research, and this research has been done and is being done.
For example, Joe wrote a post a few weeks ago about one excellent study by Diedre Royster called Race and the Invisible Hand, which explains why white male students from a vocational training school achieve better outcomes – steady work that utilizes their training – than their black male classmates. The major factor she found was that white instructors included the white students in their employment networks, passing along job opportunities to them and not to the black students. I suppose I must also say that the black students did not have any deficiencies compared to their white counterparts; they had similar grades, attendance, attitudes, demeanors, etc., and they were from the same socioeconomic backgrounds, so that’s not a viable factor either.
Other studies that look at process reach similar conclusions. There are many ways in which privileges and advantages are given to whites and withheld from people of color, despite abilities and proficiencies.
I think you’re right to require evidence before believe what anyone posts here. So I sincerely hope you’re really not too busy to read a book.
I’ll say it. 99% of white people are racist. Of the 1% who isn’t, 99% of them are complicit and silent when they see racism occur. Now. Could by guestimates be wrong? Yeah. I may be off by a percentage point or one and a half. But I’ll say it. Sure. 99% of white people are racist. And remember, when we talk about racism in this instance, we’re talking about the combination of prejudice and power. So ultimately, the fact that most black people think white people are crazy doesn’t effect your job/income/education/borrowing/etc prospects. Also, you just read the comments about the disparity of racist jokes. None of the stereotypes I’ve heard, or even hold, about white people conclude that you’re less intelligent, less hard-working, more criminal, etc. Of course, we have stereotypes about whites’ lack of honesty when dealing with minorities. And we certainly don’t trust white men to do what best for anyone but themselves. But again, that doesn’t negatively impact your any life prospects you may have. Moreover, like Joe said, the stereotypes blacks have of whites come from direct, one-on-one experiences. The blacks most likely to talk about whites not being intellectually strong are those of us who’ve been the only minority in classes with white students; or the only lawyer; or the only engineer. And even though, most of it isn’t that whites are slower than blacks, it’s that they’re certainly not brighter. To the contrary, most white stereotypes are developed in the absense of interaction with minorities. Moreover, I don’t know of one stereotype about black people that wasn’t developed in the course of rationalizing and promoting slavery. If the stereotypes were wrong then, they’re wrong now. And a white person who tells jokes about black people and kittens is not likely to give a black person an honest assessment when it comes to our life prospects.
I want to go back to Darin’s 3rd point (post #7), which I think is understandable, common, and an important point for discussion.
IF we can acknowledge that our reality of racism and racial inequality is unacceptable, unfair, and oppressive (I know we’re not all on the same page here, but there’s a point to be made), I don’t think our top priority as we go about envisioning and enacting measures should be the feelings of whites. That may sound harsh, but whites are privileged as a group and benefit from it everyday in seen and unseen ways. It may hurt to lose some of that privilege IF whites remain individualistic and self-interested, IF we fail to see that our interests are aligned with people of color, IF we do not believe that reducing unfair advantages will benefit us as a nation.
There is a good parallel in the world of health care reform, where debate could go on for decades over what the perfect system should look like and what is the step-by-step process to get there. But if our current way of doing things is hurting us as a nation, we have to change it now. We don’t have a choice. We have to try something, see how it works, and modify it as we go along.
Policy changes offer few guarantees to anyone and rarely do we forecast all unintended consequences. White people don’t get that assurance, and to require it is to slow, if not bar, change.
No1KState, you’ve got to be kidding. You keep talking about all this evidence, but I see very little effort on your part to produce even a little bit of it. You’ll forgive me if I assume you don’t have any…
Thank goodness for Kristen.
Kristen, I am not sure I agree that disparate outcome is a red flag. It is if you believe in racist conspiracy, but maybe not if you’re of a different mindset. For example, if I saw that Blacks get worse outcomes from vocational training, rather than asking, “What’s wrong with the trainer?” I might ask, “What’s wrong with Blacks?” (I know that’s not a PC question, but then I’m not very PC.) The point is that depending on which way you look at the problem, you get a different answer.
With the vocational training issue, you’ve still got the same causation/correlation question we were talking about before. Does the instructor recommend his best students, or his whitest ones? Convincing someone of the latter is a high hurdle, because the self-interest of the instructor (i.e., wanting a reputation for recommending high-quality employees) seems to point away from racism.
It should be a high hurdle for another, moral reason, too. You assume the worst about the instructor. You assume that if his Black students fail its because of his racism. Even if you’re right, it’s not at all clear what the implications are; and it’s also not clear that you’ve done the Black students a favor by giving them a life-long excuse for failure. And of course you may have done the instructor wrong if your hypothesis (and it’s still just a hypothesis) turns out to be wrong. Shouldn’t you tread carefully?
Let me make sure I understand, though. Are you saying that there’s a similar explanation for each example of disparate impact? A subtle racism that quietly prevents Blacks and Hispanics from succeeding? Whew, that’s a tough row to hoe. Good luck schlepping that theory around. For me, I’ll take Occam’s Razor.
I keep coming back to the Asian question. If “the system” is racist, why do Asians excel by so many of the measures at which Blacks and Hispanics fail? (Whites fail, too, by comparison.) I just read that Asians are the single largest racial group in the University of California system (43%). How does that square? I mean, this is a pretty objective system (grades, SAT score), yet we see very large racial disparities — and, importantly, whites are not at the top. I bet Jews out-perform even East Asians, and there’s no way you’ll convince me it’s because of some WASPy old-boys’ network.
I have all but given up on read sociology books because they always seem to start from flawed premises: Everybody is born a blank slate, we’re all identical except for the environment we’re thrown into. Human evolution came to a screeching halt 50,000 years ago. If someone has a bad outcome it’s not his fault, it’s society’s fault. We have no basis to judge that one society is superior to another: Living in a mud hut in sub-Saharan Africa is just as “good” as living in brick house in Springfield, Illinois. That’s not what I think, and no effort is ever made to convince me I’m wrong, so I have a hard time.
Darin, the questions you have raised are too much for this comments column, but I think if you read half the expert research posts on this blog, you will begin to see that you are looking at the world from a centuries-old white racial frame. There is a huge amount of evidence here refuting your major points. Do Consider stepping back and thinking critically about how you, and most of us, have been brainwashed over the years to see the world just from that old white racial frame. Consider how we usually view the U.S. Constitution and its convention versus what actually happened. This is an accurate view, and I have plenty of cites on it in the books mentioned before (especially Racist America, Systemic Racism, and the White Racial frame). This is from the Racist America book: “In 1787 fifty-five white men met in Philadelphia and wrote a Constitution for what was seen as the first democratic nation. They met at the end of a long revolutionary struggle and often articulated their perspective using strong language about human equality and freedom. However, they had a very restricted view of those grand ideas. As we saw in chapter 1, this Constitutional Convention did not include white women, African Americans, or Native Americans, who collectively made up a substantial majority of the population. Nor did it include representation for white men with little property. The representatives of less than 5 percent of the population framed a new constitution that has governed, with some amendments, the United States since the late eighteenth century. The document created by these propertied white men reflected their racial, class, and gender interests. While some of these interests encompassed the desires of all Americans to be free of the tyrannies of Europe—such as the constitutional prohibition of aristocratic titles and of a state religion— it took strong protests in the colonies from ordinary Americans before a Bill of Rights was added by the elite to their new Constitution.” These white men built into the U.S. Constitution at least 12 provisions protecting and undergirding the slavery system from which the majority profited. There are many issues here for today, but let me just choose one. This is a quote from my revised edition of this Racist America book:
“Over recent decades, the U.S. government has a history of pressuring certain undemocratic countries to develop democratic constitutional conventions or commissions and, thus, democratic constitutions. For example, in 2005 numerous U.S. officials and political commentators put great pressure on the new Iraqi officials who replaced U.S.-deposed dictator Sadam Hussein to develop a constitutional Commission that would represent all the people of Iraq and create a new democratic constitution. There was much U.S. insistence that all major religious and ethnic groups in Iraq have representation, that women be represented, and that women’s rights, minority rights, and religious rights be clearly recognized in the new Constitution. Among the 55 members of this constitutional Commission were indeed male and female representatives of most major groups in Iraq, although some were significantly underrepresented. The final Iraqi Constitution, approved in a national referendum, describes the country as a “democratic, federal, representative republic” and a “multiethnic, multi-religious country.” The Constitution specifically lists an array of protected human rights . . . . This constitution explicitly bans racial discrimination and prohibits groups from propagating racism. . . . Whether Iraq can become a true democracy at this time yet remains to be seen, but what is relevant for our purposes here is that many U.S. government officials and prominent commentators pressured the Iraqis to set up a constitutional Commission representing all major groups of people in Iraq and to craft a Constitution with a full array of strong human rights protections. In stark contrast, however, the United States has never had such a constitutional convention or commission that represented all (or even much) of the population, nor has it developed a Constitution with nearly as large array of human rights protections as this Iraqi constitution provides. It is hard to see how the United States can insist on being the world’s premier democracy without having its own political constitution made in at least as democratic a fashion as the U.S.-pressured Iraqi constitution.” right?
You misunderstand Royster’s research, but understandable because you haven’t read it. She didn’t set about trying to prove the racism of the instructors. She was trying to investigate IF there would be equal outcomes for equally-situated people. The men in the study came from the same backgrounds and went to the same exact school. She started her study while they were enrolled in the training program, did interviews with teachers, students, etc., visited their homes, etc. Then they graduated and got employment, and she followed up on what kinds of jobs they found and how.
The white students as a whole had better outcomes – worked in the profession for which they’d been trained more often and earned higher wages. Her analysis found that the white students’ successes had been strongly facilitated by the instructors having had given them small job opportunities while still enrolled in the training program. Thus, they acquired experience and got steeped in social networks before they even graduated. Notably, these white male students hadn’t sought these opportunities out on their own, but were given them by the teachers who happened to be white males too.
The “Asian question” is interesting, but the statistics about them are misleading on a number of levels. For one, there is a huge disparity in the umbrella category of “Asian American,” with some groups having very high outcomes and other groups very low, similar to African Americans. But more relevant to your query is the fact that Asian Americans have a much higher educational attainment than whites but have only about equal or slightly higher incomes. Plus, on average they live in areas with a higher cost of living than whites. Plus, they tend to have more people per household, which means their household income doesn’t stretch as far.
And, like it or not, there are still powerful social and employment networks that favor whites, white males in particular, for promotion and for leadership positions.
I think your example of U.S. pressure for a representative, human-rights heavy Iraqi constitutional convention is such a crucial contrast for us to consider. It is so fascinating that we will pressure other nations to do things we won’t do at home. One, do we even have room to talk? And two, can we at least make moves to walk our own talk?
Another example is the moralizing pressure we put on Germany to pay reparations to Jewish people post-Holocaust, and our failure to do anything whatsoever to address the injustice we did to Japanese Americans with internment until the 1980s, and only then in response to a lot of activist work by Asian Americans themselves.
I went through the sports stats as they are. For all the black represenation on the field and court, up to 80% one seasion, you’d expect to see more coaches and GMs. I don’t know exactly what it is you want in terms of evidence. Kristen made clear that it wasn’t the case that the white students were better than the black students and you still bring that up as a variable. And I’ve said before, I’m not going to do the googling you could do yourself.
Joe, even if I concede every factual point in the citation you gave, I’m not sure it changes my question: so what? Let’s say Blacks and women and gays and every other group we insist on sorting ourselves into had a seat at the table. How would the document be different today? (I understand the original text would have been different, but that’s not the question.)
Kristen, I have not read the research, but I don’t think I misunderstood it. Your description of the research is what I pictured. The biggest issue is whether you’ve adequately “equally situated.” The men obviously did not all come from the same background because some were white and some were back. That means their genetic (and probably cultural) backgrounds were pretty different. I’m not saying that explains the difference in outcome and I’m not saying it doesn’t, but considering only the most superficial parameters — social status, grades, school — is not persuasive.
If her point was not to prove the racism of the instructor, what then? What do YOU conclude from this study? (Note than I am not asking the race of the author, since it is irrelevant in my view.)
Don’t downplay this Asian issue, I think it’s a big deal for your side to answer. I know lots of sub-groups get lumped together as “Asian,” but that actually bolsters my argument. There’s this sub-group that everybody agrees is Asian that performs at a very, very high level. Why would this be? Why would “the system” be racist against Mexicans, Blacks, Indians, Nigerians, Arabs, and Native Americans, but in favor of (Southeastern) Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, and Koreans? It makes no sense in the framework of a racist conspiracy. How do you explain it?
You are incorrect that Asians do not have higher incomes. In fact, Asians have the highest income among the major racial groups in the US, according to Wikipedia’s summary of the 2004 census. This is true of individual income, household income, average income, and percent above $100k. If we sorted out the various Asian groups, the disparity would be even greater.
How do you explain the fact that they are not in leadership positions? I have an explanation, but I’d like to hear yours first. Be sure to also explain why Jews not only have high incomes but also find themselves in leadership roles.
I agree with you and Joe about compensation for interred Japanese during WWII, by the way. Even if you can make the case that internment was a necessary evil, it’s impossible to argue that compensation is not due. This is an especially clear case, since it’s obvious who should be compensating whom. This is not so true in other cases, such as reparations to Blacks for slavery.
I also agree with your point, Kristen, that the feelings of Whites are not of particular concern. You’ll agree that neither are the feelings of Blacks, Asians, or anyone else. What matters is “goodness,” defined in some meaningful way, comprising freedom, fairness, humanity, and other values. Maybe you would suggest equality, although I would not). But when I say it’s up to you guys to suggest something better, I’m not thinking of the feelings of Whites. I’m thinking of the well-being of all Americans — including Blacks. You can’t just legislate equality any more than you can wish it, and I think the tendency of a lot of well-meaning cure might very well be worse than the disease.
I’m still waiting for even one person to acknowledge racism on the part of anyone other than Whites. Anybody?
Joe, even if I concede every factual point in the citation you gave, I’m not sure it changes my question: so what?
Yes, the question should be, “So what is your point?” other than your desire to be contrarian. That you can’t see the fundamental difference between the U.S. Constitution and the Iraqi Constitution we insisted on the Iraqis adopting some that there would be POWER SHARING with each of the major demographic groups effectively represented in the way the government itself is structured vs. pure majority rule ‘democracy’ then there is no use in you continuing this facade of a dialogue.
The biggest problem with your approach is you’ve arrived here with your stereotypes, talking points and conclusion all strapped on and you’re working your way backwards (in a circle) trying to justify your ill-formed views. Instead of looking at the facts and letting the facts dictate your views, you stay firmly fixed on those stereotypes and worn-out talking points.
For example, instead of investigating whether Asian-Americans make claims alleging racism, instead of research whether they experience racism, you’d rather stick to your pre-conceived conclusion that America can’t be “racist” because of some curious calculus you’ve come up with all on your own — i.e. a calculus you use to counter arguments you think or would like your opponents to make vs. the ones they are actually making.
I mean, seriously… Nobody here said anything about a conspiracy but that didn’t stop you because you have your talking points and you’re sticking to them.
Even more disturbing is the kind of logic behind silly little wisecracks about racist=”evil” Whites and systemic racism = active widespread/powerful White conspiracy network. While these straw-men are convenient for you to maintain your denial, they say more about you and your inability to practice what you preach than it says about anyone who has engaged you in discussion/debate.
For some reason, instead of YOU presenting alternative explanations to your “racism= evil Whites” and “systematic racism”=”active widespread/powerful White conspiracy”… you just figure those inane characterizations fit the arguments/positions of those who place America’s Racism under Review with no, shall I say, “feel good” distractions and diversions — i.e. considerations of the largely ineffectual (and mostly response-oriented) prejudices POC have regarding Whites and racism outside of the USA.
But, I guess, you can’t help the way your brain works. You can, however, help the way you’re trying to establish double-standards in your favor. After all the EVIDENCE, I presented for you to address (not dodge), you have the nerve to say you’re “still waiting” like people are obligated to answer to you because people on this blog dedicated to putting [white] racism under review have to prove something to you.
I’ll finish by again focusing on how you choose to use a stereotype about Asian-American high academic achievement as a weapon against Black people, e.g., while intentionally ignoring the Jewish like racist admissions-capping quotas those Asian Americans (not to be confused with those Asian American populations you conveniently ignore) have long since labeled as White racism directed towards them. Rather than research/assess the facts, you’d rather stick with them decades old stereotypes and “model minority” talking points…. AGAIN, failing to consider/explore alternative explanations.
What do we say about folks like Darin who find any number of ways to resist the truth?
When we talk about “feelings,” what I mean is that the march to racial justice and equality can’t be based on what most white Americans know or are willing to acknowledge. It can’t be based on the unfounded fear that white workers will lose jobs to less qualified workers of color. It can’t be based on satisfying some need white Americans seem to have to absolve themselves of racism without acknowledging their racism. We should move forward without waiting to “convince” white Americans of the need to eradicate racism. Etc and so on.
from a review of Roysters book:
That should answer the concerns about other variables.
I ask, what type of “evidence” do white people need to be “convinced” of institutional racism? We see disparities in outcome. We study why they occur. Time and time again, studies and research shows anti-black or white privilege to be the cause of the disparities. So, what do white people need? Do they need CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies to testify before Congress that they do give a white male more opportunities and better pay just because they’re white? Do they want big bankers to testify that they do charge black applicants more for loans for no other reason than that they’re black? What are white people waiting for? What I find most astounding is that when you probe any individual white person, a litany of negative, false stereotypes about black people come flowing out. Then they pretend all that doesn’t impact their decisions in hiring or lending, etc. They pretend it doesn’t influence their decisions to remain or leave a neighborhood. Let’s get real.
Can anyone besides white people be racist? To the extent that we’re talking about the combination of prejudice and power, no. But if you’re asking if any other people can hold racial prejudices besides white people, sure. Even Caribbean and African immigrants sometimes buy into the negative, false stereotypes of black people. If you’re asking if other people can be prejudice against whites, that, too, has to be nuanced. For instance, black students do choose to sit together at lunch. Mostly for the psychic support that it provides. And it’s certainly a good opportunity to let your guard down and speak black English. On the other hand, if you’re asking if, for example, black people can hold hostilities against white people, the answer is yes. But here’s the nuance – we’re mostly angry at the injustice of racism. Like I said before, I don’t know of any stereotype of white people that would affect life prospects. From my own experience, it seems as though blacks hold white “culture” in low regard. We do think American “values” of individualism and materialism are inferior to our sense of responsibility to one’s community and for one’s family; we don’t base a person’s worth on their networth. If you’re asking about the rejection of interracial marriage, that has more to do with racial politics and pride than anything against a white person just on the basis of their whiteness. And we don’t think white people can cook. We think you’re nasty, don’t practice good hygiene. We certainly think white people have an unnatural attachment to dogs and other pets. I don’t know if you consider that racist. I don’t know of any group that believes they’re superior to white people simply by virture of skin color, hair type, lip size, butt size, etc and so on.
Seriously Darin, what will convince you of the need for change? What’s a bit disturbing is that ultimately, whites have little to fear from a more equal society. You may not get to go to the university of your choice or get your dream job, but is that really sufficient reasons for resisting legal measure and remedies to ensure equality?
And, really, you brought up the NBA!!!? You might as well try that BET line and pretend as if there is no such thing as White TV because the world “white” doesn’t appear in the title.
Actually, it’s time for this nonsense to stop. NASCAR is conspicuously absent. NHL is conspicuously absent. All those virtually ALL-WHITE sports mentioned in The Price of Admission (Daniel Gibson) are conspicuously absent. Even MLB is conspicuously absent. The PGA (or Tennis) is blatantly absent. Which brings me to my point.
The racism/racial exclusion is implicated in the demographics in those sports because the history of inclusion and access is clear. Of all those sports, basketball (basket + ball) is probably the most inexpensive and accessible as far as skills development/training. The NFL quarterback history provides insight on how racist thoughts impact inclusion in that area.
It hasn’t been that long since racist theories dominated the thinking about Black men as quarterbacks because, after centuries of even denying that Black people had the athletic ability to compete with Whites, the ready retreat for racist thought was to say Blacks lacked the intelligence and leadership ability to be quarterbacks. Hell, Rush Limbaugh is a living example of how that kind of thinking used to dominate in my not entirely short lifetime (I’m around 40).
So these idiotic NBA comparisons of physical skills, especially NBA skills where there both few accessibility problems and just as few social/racist stereotypes which work to exclude Blacks from being included in basketball… as they were in America’s living history.
In both baseball and golf… access playing fields and equipment and investment of in the game in the Black community are serious topics of concern.
I found your comments to Darin very informative…And, again, I am learning a lot by just looking at this site..And, I agree with you on the “white framed thinking”…However, my question, how do you explain all the inter racial couples, inter racial marriages, and inter racial children walking around today if “all” of us are brainwashed into the “white frame of thinking”?
No1KState Says Regarding Black Philosophy:
“We do think American “values” of individualism and materialism are inferior to our sense of responsibility to one’s community and for one’s family; we don’t base a person’s worth on their networth.”
Um-m-m I’m not so sure about this vast generalization here. One of the reasons blacks consider themselves oppressed is because they claim they don’t receive the job opportunities whites do. Is that because blacks don’t value “materialism”? The very word materialism has a negative connotation. I think it would be more appropriate to say financial security here. Blacks crave financial security (as they should!) just as much as whites..because “responsibility” to your family, partially at least, Means obtaining financial security.
Also, you imply that blacks feel more of a responsibility to their “community and family” than whites? I think that’s pushing it. I mean to say that if you’re contending there’s racism in this country against blacks ..that’s perfectly valid..cause there is. But to paint blacks as sitting on the right hand of God is a little much..it’s like “Our Ideals Are So Much More Noble Than Those of the White Man”. Now that’s a little extreme.
Blacks Very Much respect their friends who are financially successful. They envy other blacks who are making money..if they themselves aren’t making money. Same applies for whites..human nature really.
As far as the sense of community blacks feel toward other blacks..well..that’s debatable also. I haven’t seen blacks who live in government subsidized housing projects show any particular concern for their “community”. Just the opposite. The black gangs who sell drugs in these areas scare the heck out of the law-abiding blacks in these developments.
Many law-abiding blacks have complained and bemoaned the fact that they have to raise their children next to these gang members who leave hypodermic needles all over the playground where their children play. so it’s really up to the individual black person/family regarding how much they care for their community. Black-on-black crime is very high in the city in which I live. The criminal element of blacks prey on decent but vulnerable blacks.
My point is that blacks are pretty much like the rest of us in their psychology about money, concern for family and community. I don’t see blacks as being any More or Less concerned about these issues than other races. It’s not valid to put blacks on a pedestal as in “they care so much more for community than whites!” or “they’re not materialistic like whites!” We all want Financial Security. I think that’s obfuscating the issue. Just stick to the racism issues, but don’t make blacks a model for all other citizens because of their High Ideals..they’re just like the rest of us…some blacks have high ideals and some don’t.
I will say just a bit more about Royster’s research. You really are misunderstanding. Here’s the deal: There is a common view among economists that the market sorts people according to ability – the invisible hand, it is called. Regular Americans believe something similar – meritocracy, i.e., my hard work will pay off. So Royster said, Okay, let me test this idea firsthand. I’ll follow the students of one school for a few years and study them carefully and then see if they achieve according to their merit, and if not, why. (I can’t believe you called school and grades superficial factors, by the way. We’re talking about adult students here who are spending time & money to enter into a vocational training program. They expect – and we expect too – that the grades they earn will be a major factor in their entry-level employability.)
You are implying that the men’s race and/or “culture” were factors that determined whether they got jobs – and in this case we understand that it was the white men who won out. To say this is only to lend support to the notion that the marketplace favors whites. And, by now it is clear that you will not be reading Royster’s book, so you’ll just have to take my word for it that she found no discernible “cultural” differences between the black and white men. She talked about their communication styles, their demeanors, their politeness, etc.
You have spurred some interesting debate to this site, but honestly at this point I do not feel that you are listening to what I and some others are saying.
You should do some reading on Asian Americans and look at the data closely. Compared to whites, they have a much higher proportion of college degrees (for doctoral degree holders, they are at 250% of the national average), but their incomes are only slightly higher than whites. (This table has a bunch of numbers, but you might find it helpful: http://www.80-20initiative.net/action/equalopp_washingtonpost_table2.gif)
If you look also at the conditions under which the high-achieving Asian American subgroups immigrated, you will see that they arrived in the U.S. with educational credentials. This explains their continuing high education. But again, they are not rising at the rate that matches their educational attainment.
I hear you, Kristen, and I still don’t think I’m misunderstanding. However I haven’t been completely forthcoming, either. Let me be more blunt, and risk offending you. Did she control for IQ? I am virtually certain she did not. If she did, then I’ll admit I’m wrong in this case and I’ll increase the uncertainty of my beliefs about how these things actually work. Fair enough?
You’re right about another thing: I’m not listening to what others are saying. Only you and Joe have shown any inclination to discuss, so I’m basically ignoring everybody else.
By the way, the invisible hand is really not about sorting people by ability. It’s a metaphor used by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations to explain how each of us pursuing our own self-interest works to the benefit of others.
To turn your question back onto you, though, are you listening to me? I keep raising the question of other non-White races and why some of them are doing so well. If racism explains why Blacks and Hispanics are doing poorly, what explains why Asians and Jews are doing so well? I mean, Asians are doing better than Whites! What kind of inept racism is it that can’t keep second-generation Korean immigrants from making more money? Pathetic, don’t you think?
I would like to know where you found you statistics, regarding the American Slave Trade..According the research that I’ve done, thus far, there were 15.3 million…
However, the fact, the in 1444 the Portuguese’s treated their salves better is true because after they completed the project they were set free..
I have been looking at the US census for 2008..According to the census there are approximately 13.4% of the population that is Black American…15.1 Hispanic, and about .03% that are Native American or ingenious people, which by the way, are responsible for 50 to 60 percent of the worlds food growth regarding veges…
I know that the European populations consist of Irish, Russian, Scott, Dutch, English, etc. make up the rest of the population, which I guess, are considered “whites”, but to me inter racial…However, I do feel, this inter racial may have something to do with why the “white” still out number by 74% of the Americas..In other words, there are no pure ethnic’s regarding the whites of today…
Now I would like to take a little time in and give historical dates:.
1776 Constitution signed
1860-Abolitionism of slavery
So, that means that is took approx. 88 years from the signing of the constitution to abolish slavery for all American people..
1878—All men in the USA were allowed to vote
1909- NCCPA was formed…I would guess by Men
1920–Women of all race were allow to vote
1964- Civil Rights were enacted.
I find it interesting that is only took 44 years for the enactment of the Civil Rights Movement..I don’t know, maybe it had something to do with women….I also would like to note that it had only taken half the amount of time, regarding, slavery…..
According to the US census 2050 “white” will be considered a minority in the US..
This is some of the research I’ve done so far. I may be wrong, about some of the dates, but what I am trying suggest, as I have said on this site before, that Men have fault wars since the beginning of time over power and greed..
Women in this Country are not taken seriously enough, looked upon as sex objects, only a few have made any headway in politics, and other professional industries etc..
I am not a feminist, by no means..I do however, experiences discrimination from car dealer’s, service companies, or any type of service like the justice system etc….In fact, when I need something done I get MEN friends to call, and make the appointments for me…
So, I guess, what I am trying to say that it is, and always will be a MAN’S world.
However, I will keep an open mind about the “white frame of thinking” and I do agree with you, regarding that ingenious insight on your part, but I also have to keep an open mind about the injustices regarding women, and the lower social economic class…Thanks MOM:)
Please correct any dates that I may have made…
>Are only whites racist, or can others be , too?
a definition by the UN answers your question:
Article 1 of the Convention defines “racial discrimination” as
any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
Maybe we need someone as young and bold as me to say that all white people are racist. We all are. Unfortunately we have been taught to be. Even those of us who work day-in-and-out to negate the decades of socializing cannot ever be completely not-racist. We can be anti-racist, and work towards negating that which we have been taught, but we will never be free from the bondage we have been taught into. Maybe I am being fatalistic, but Darin, I am answering your call for someone to flat out call white racist. I am calling all whites racist. And I am one of them.
This is an interesting observation by MOM:
MoM to Joe Says:
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:42 am
I found your comments to Darin very informative…And, again, I am learning a lot by just looking at this site..And, I agree with you on the “white framed thinking”…However, my question, how do you explain all the inter racial couples, inter racial marriages, and inter racial children walking around today if “all” of us are brainwashed into the “white frame of thinking”?
Because, MOM, it’s Not true that All whites are brainwashed into the white frame mind set. I made several mentions about the city I live in on the last post. There has been a Huge surge in inter-racial dating in this city over the last 10 years (I’ve lived here for 24 years). It’s mostly black boys/men dating white women. Many have married. I see mulatto children virtually everywhere. I live in a large city the South, so we have a big population of blacks.
Obvioulsy alot of white women find black men attractive. We’re so used (actually) to seeing mixed race couples in this city..nobody blinks an eye at it. We see tons of black/Asian couples, Asian/white couples, Hispanic/white couples…pretty much of a United Nations down here. We also have a huge number of people who moved here from India.
99% of the people from India and Asia are Very well-educated and are ferocious about getting their kids into a good college. They don’t take “no” for an answer when it comes to being ambitious.
Many of them have been here for 5 years or less and live in $400,000 houses. They stick together as an ethnic group and help each other out..purchase from each other, go into business together, babysit for each other’s kids etc etc. Many of them work 7 days a week and they never complain! They know they have to work to get ahead in America..so they do. Tons of them also take classes in speaking English. I mean ta tell ya..these guys kick it!
You won’t find them on sites like this. They don’t have the time!
But that doesn’t mean we do not have a moral responsibility to use every breath in our body to destroy that which we have built. Our society is deeply troubled, despite all the ego-stroking we do and all the multiculturalism we see on TV accounts (when we look for it). We anti-racists need to desperately unveil the white racial frame that binds us to evil and try and create room for young people to be socialized into the Liberty and Justice Frame. And with that we can overhaul our social institutions from the inside.
But not only do we need to change individual perspectives (by challenging the white racial frame), we also need to challenge the very social institutions we take as imperative to the functioning of this (in)egalitarian society. Take, for instance, the electoral college…
No1KState says: “I’ll say it. 99% of white people are racist. Of the 1% who isn’t, 99% of them are complicit and silent when they see racism occur.”
I am interested in reading from what objective and scholarly study you retrieved this information. If this is your own personal observation, then I don’t think we can give this much merit..since personal observations differ according to whom you’re collecting the data from.
I’ll take seriously an objective study by psychologists or sociologists, with say 3,000 individuals used as subject material, but there’s no way anyone will take seriously a statement such as yours based on very subjective emotions. If you want to be taken seriously, give people studies they can read.
You have not offended me personally by your assertion that black people have less innate intelligence than white people and this explains their worse outcomes. But you have certainly shown yourself to be an adamant believer in biological racism.
I am glad you have been honest, but it is clear now that you are operating from a very racist, outdated, and completely unscientific standpoint. You have complained here of Sociologists, but you will be hard-pressed to find ANY scholar from any discipline who would support your notion of biological racial inferiority. All the evidence is mounted against you.
My brief explanation of the invisible hand concept as used commonly in the field of economics was accurate.
@Carl F – If you read through the entire thread, you’ll see my comments were directed at Darin. I stand by what I said as far as black culture vs white culture. Financial security is not the same thing as materialism. Financial security means I want a job that pays well enough to meet a certain standard of living I would like to have. Materialism isn’t just wanting to things, it’s judging people by the things they have. Black folks may bemoan living in crime-ridden communities, but we don’t reject our poor by calling them names like “white trash.” Responsibility to the community means that you get an education and come back and use that education to benefit your community, to help address racial inequalities in a way that nullifies that racism of mainstream America. From what I can tell, one American value is “individualism” where people have that attitude that I got mine and you get yours. Some black people may have that attitude, but it’s rejected as wrong by the collective community. And yes, some black people get jealous of those who acquire wealth. But so do some white people. The difference is that acquiring wealth for the white community seems to be a virtue. And yes, that’s a lot of my personal opinion and observation. I know personally, because of the demographics of the schools I attended, taking AP classes put me on the outside. My saving grace was my connection to the black faith community.
In regards to the number of racist white people, again, I was responding to a question Darin asked. That is my guess. It’s based on having read through not a few studies, books, and research; it’s based on observing mainstream news coverage; it’s based on observing political rhetoric. After reading study after study regarding the lack of opportunity granted to African Americans on the basis of the color of their skin – cause by the way, few jobs, and certainly no manual labor jobs I can think of, require an IQ test as part of the application – it’s hard not to reach the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of white Americans are racist. And yeah, because of the vast numerical difference, not all white people have to be racist to get the outcomes that we do. Even if just 10% of white Americans were racist, that leaves around 7 racist white people for every 13 black people. The reason I score it so high is that 1) even if just 10% of white Americans are racist, another 89.5% just sit around and do nothing about it. And 2) Darin was mockingly putting forth this idea that the only way to believe racism has the impact we say it has is to believe there’s some widespread “racist conspiracy.” Then he dared someone to just say that we think all white people are racist, which Darin probably regards as racist itself, which itself is interesting in light of his question about IQs – by that I mean if I assumed that Darin was racist, and I did, he may be offended that I prejudged him, but he has now shown some racism, so I was right. However, I guess I could’ve been more clear in answer that question. Do black people believe that there’s some secret phone number that white people call at night to get their instructions on how to be racist the following day? No. But if I come across a white stranger, will I assume that person is racist? Yep. And that’s as much about surviving and attempting to be successful outside of my home community. See, I know what white people think about black English even though there’s no real linguistic reason for the contempt, which means the condescention for black English has to do with the speakers and not the dialect itself. So if I meet a white stranger, do I verbalize all verbs and make sure subject and verb agree? I code-switch without even thinking, so yes.
@Darin – I guess I’m one of the ones you’re not paying attention to. I guess I could’ve been as thorough and specific as Joe and Kristen. But I figured from the beginning you would look for any excuse to deny facts and figures, even disregarding a study that proved white privilege if not anti-black bias on the basis of not having held for IQ, so I declined to waste my time giving you links and specific studies as though you can’t just type “racial employment discrimination” in google search and get this: “http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=racial+employment+discrimination&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=” which includes almost 2mil links. I knew if you really wanted to get to the bottom of things, you would’ve done that. But you don’t want to get to the bottom of things, you just wanna prove that racism isn’t what’s holding black people back, even if you have to bring up the subject of black people possibly not being as smart and thus identifying yourself as racist. Sorry I didn’t care to play your game by your rules.
I mean for heaven’s sake! Even the UN has reprimanded the US as recently as last year on its racism. But you probably don’t trust the UN, huh? You want some CEO to get on TV and say that s/he instructs people in charge of hiring to give white people a few bonus points just because they’re white? Since we both know that probably won’t happen, what exactly is it that you need to be “convinced” of racism, despite showing your own racism?
“99% of the people from India and Asia are Very well-educated and are ferocious about getting their kids into a good college. They don’t take “no” for an answer when it comes to being ambitious.
Many of them have been here for 5 years or less and live in $400,000 houses. ”
I have found this to be unquestionably true! Plus, regarding the skin color issue, many people from India could pass for black! Some are very dark complected. This doesn’t seem to impede their progress in America one bit. I think this issue merits examination. I mean if blacks are proposing that their skin color is an impediment to success, then why do people from India do very well in the United States?
I really don’t know the answer to this. I do have one suggestion to people of color, in the work place, I think it would be an intelligent move to drop the black vernacular. So far, nobody’s been willing to accept that as “professional” discourse..and I just don’t think most Americans..like Asians and Indians..ever will.
I would focus on equal rights regarding job opportunities, housing, retirement benefits etc. These issues are a matter of being able to support your family and to Live.
On the other hand, I would not try to Make everybody accept that black vernacular in the work place is professional sounding. Nobody seems to think it is. I’d drop that endeavor. I think it’s a waste of your time. Just a suggestion.
CarlF & smoke.a.,
Please reference my comment #28.
Thank you for the explaination regarding the comment that I asked Joe…
Now, I need to make a correction..
NAACP founded in 1909..
I know that I have a lot of grammatical errors when I write on this blog, apologies….
Asian children do better in school because they are expected to attend school 220 days per year…Their hours are from 7:30am to 2:00pm. They have a two hour lunch, and are expected to return back to school until 5:00 pm. Then the Asian children return back to school at 7:00 p.m. until 9:00 p.m. Their main focuses are science, math, and languages….The all wear uniforms….The US school system could learn a lot from the Asian people regarding their school curriculum and approach…My son is going over to Asia after he graduates to teach ESL…
Carl I don’t know if you were being sarcasstic with me when you stated that they are so busy that they don’t have time to “kick back” and visit these sites….I am very greatful for the time that I have right now because I have learned a lot in the past week regarding racism and getting a different perspective of what racism truly is…
However, I am between “cases” right now, and I as mentioned above, I am glad that I found this site… The “cases” that I work on allows me to talk to people from all over the world, regarding, health…Not my field of choice, but it pays the bills, and unfortunately, it is part time employment…However, when I work on my “cases” I work 12 hr days, so I do know what it’s like to work hard, and I’ve worked hard all my life…I have been very blessed because I am able to relate to people from all walks of life because I am from all walks of life..I hope you understand….
I feel that when I leave this site I will be able to educate others on what I have learned, and hopefully make a difference one person at a time…I’ll be back with more facts.. I just have to organize them…Thanks, MOM:)
Could someone clarify “black english”? Kstate, i’m sure you have discussed this eleswhere, you comment would be appriecated…
Kristen, I’m not sure what “biological racism” means, but if it means I don’t assume all races are identical except for superficial differences like skin color, then I guess I am. If it means I think there’s a moral difference between people of different races, or that personal animosity or even bias against individuals on account of their race is justified, then I’m not. Which is closer to your definition, so I’ll know whether I should take exception to you accusation?
As for the science of racial differences in personality, I feel like I’m pretty solid ground. I could give the the array of respectable social scientists who agree with me (well, who convinced me), but a dueling-experts debate between you and me will not be very interesting. Instead, let’s see if we can find some common ground.
Let’s go back to the study you brought up. Would you agree that IF the two groups involved in the study happened to differ in terms of cognitive ability, then that would be a reasonable explanation for the differences in outcome? I’m not saying they DO differ. Well, why didn’t the researcher control for that? Maybe she thought their grades were a good proxy for intelligence, but I’m sure you and I would agree that they’re not — we can both think of plenty of smart people who got bad grades in a particular class, and vice versa. So let’s agree that intelligence would have been a good variable to control. Yes? I mean, at the very least controlling for IQ would have shut up crazy people like me.
I’ve been pretty good about addressing point you raise. Maybe you’ll address my question to you about differentials in outcomes among various non-white minorities. Why do Koreans do so much better than Mexicans? More importantly, is the fact that they do compatible with the notion that American society is dominated by White racists?
Darin, the only way to get a real understanding of how deep racism is in this society is to read and study the many 100s of research studies that demonstrate that harsh reality. I provide citations to hundreds of such studies in the books I have mentioned before. A brief look at the world or relying on media and personal experience just will not cut it. You are mostly operating out of that very old white racial frame, which is a “con” sold by whites to themselves and others to legitimate and rationalize the high levels of racial oppression this society is built upon. You need to step outside of it and think critically about what you and most of us have always been told about race and racism. We have been lied to.
One major Reason: About 85 percent of this country’s history was extreme racial oppression in the form of slavery and Jim Crow, and that history/structure persists like the proverbial battleship. Once set in motion for our first 346 years it does not disappear in a few short decades. It infects and affects most aspects of society, including the deep racial framing we buy into.
For example, your points on IQ. There is no such IQ. The critical research on so-called “IQ” demonstrates that there is no such thing. There are multiple knowledges and intelligences among humans, most of which are not measured by the modest, mostly paper and pencil tests (and symbol manipulation tests) that the conning white framing says do really measure “IQ.” This is the IQ con.
Sorry about this, but the only way you will understand well and deeply how this racist society really operates is to study the extensive research literature on racism carefully. Dismissing science or not studying is, does not liberate the mind. There are research answers, and much data and research documentation, in the books we often mention on this site, including my own Racist America and Systemic Racism books, that refute clearly many of your points. I am sorry but there is no easy way to bypass studying the extensive social science research if you really want to understand how the society works on racial matters. Much of What you think you know is mostly not backed up by the research. I have a challenge no one has ever taken. Read Racist America through carefully, and then refute the major points with data and evidence.
Some Indians and Southeast Asians are dark-complected, yes. But I haven’t seen one I thought was black.
I’ve never hard of anyone using black vernacular as “professional.” I would expect that maybe black people use vernacular with each other or in situations that don’t require “professionalism,” ie asking if anyone would like some coffee.
Black English – I’ll just repeat some basic linguistics and maybe some advanced.
1 – There is no such thing as “proper” English. There is no such thing as any “proper” language. Black vernacular is as credible a dialect as white English. It’s just that we’ve chosen white English as our standard English. The extent to which blacks came here as slaves, and white Americans made the rules, that’s understandable. It’s a sign of white cultural supremacy, but understandable. What’s not so understandable or acceptable is the mainstream attitude in regards to black English. There are several English dialects in America. As I’m aware, a heavy Bronx accent is frowned upon. And people with “Southern” accents are often regarded as slow. But there is no other dialect that gets the bashing that black vernacular gets, and when you look across the dialect spectrum, what’s really being bashed is blackness, not the dialect.
2 – Some linguists would describe black vernacular as more than just a dialect of English, but a language unto itself.
3 – Nobody suggests not teaching students standard English. What activists in this area are asking is that students be taught to code-switch. It’s worked very well in places where it’s been used. – This helps make a further point about the degrading of black English. – In Italy, there are several different dialects of Italian, but no student is taught that their dialect is “wrong” or “bad” or “lazy.” They’re taught that they’re dialect is fine, it’s just that in order to succeed, they need to learn standard Italian. Activists here are asking for the same thing. Language is a touchy issue. It’s not just a way of communicating, it represents the culture; it’s passed down from one generation to the next. To mock someone’s language is to mock their culture and community. So when teachers tell black students that they dialect is shoddy, inferior, and wrong, they are in efffect telling black students that their culture, their parents, their community is shoddy, inferior, and wrong. – So what code-switching does is use black vernacular to demonstrate relationships between subjects, verbs, nouns, modifiers, prepositions, conjunctions, etc. Now that the students no how their language functions, and it’s been validated, they use this knowledge to understand standard English and its grammatical features. These students do better on standardized tests and show higher self-esteem.
3 – We don’t learn language in kindegarten. So when comments/questions are made, ie “Why can’t they learn proper English yet?” it demonstrates a lack of understanding of the way language is learned. By the time a child is 5, s/he has basically learned whatever dialect of whatever language(s) spoken in the home. So, you don’t learn language in kindegarten. That’s very important to keep in mind. You learn language from your parents and the adults in your life. They learned language from their parents and the adults in their lives. Your grandparents learned language from their parents and the adults in their lives. Therefore, black English today maintains some features of slave creole. Cause remember, you learn language by the time you’re 5. You may go to school and learn this and that as far as “proper” English; but it’s rare that these features are maintained in a nonacademic setting. For example, we know the rule against double negatives. And black English is degraded by folks who don’t care to learn any better because of the use of multiple negatives. The problem is that in everyday speech, no one, not even speakers of standard English, counts the number of negatives. A person may hear the double negative and count it against the speaker, but no one hears the double negative and thinks a “positive” has been made. It’s fairly well understood that double negatives mean more negative. So if I were to say, “John ain’t got no money,” you may think I’m ignorant, but you don’t think John does money.
4 – The following is definitely my own opinion. Throughout my academic career, speakers of black English have been regards as lazy and/or stupid. But something occurred to me: white people are definitely not using the very “to be” properly when mocking speakers of black English. No one would say to a cop, for example, “This be police brutality!” But that’s how TV shows and movies portray black English. And the truth is, I haven’t met any black person who couldn’t understand standard English in conversation. So. If I ask a speaker of black English can understand you, but it’s clear you don’t understand me, is it really the case that you’re somehow smarter than I am? If I speak black English and mastered standard English (I code-switch without even thinking about it.), but you can’t even get something as simple as the verb “to be” right, which one of us is really the smartest?
siss, I hope that makes sense. Linguistics is a favorite subject of mine.
“Materialism isn’t just wanting to things, it’s judging people by the things they have. Black folks may bemoan living in crime-ridden communities, but we don’t reject our poor by calling them names like “white trash.” Responsibility to the community means that you get an education and come back and use that education to benefit your community, to help address racial inequalities in a way that nullifies that racism of mainstream America.”
First of all, the black people who have moved out of the ghetto that I know…have Absolutely No Wish to Return! So if your definition of “responsibility to the community” means black people using their education to benefit other blacks who are still in the ghetto…I haven’t seen it. Who in their right mind would want to return! And that’s the point you made in the first place..that black people have this huge sense of “community responsiblity”..like over and above whites. Again, ask any black person living in a government subsidized housing project who They Think Hurts Their Community the Most..they’ll say it’s the black drug dealers. Again, black-on-black crime is the biggest crime (this is documented) in the very large southern city I live in. So, your point about blacks being such a cohesive group is nullifed by the amount of crimes they commit against each other.
Plus, blacks are just like anybody else when it comes to material things. Blacks crave material things:nice cars, televisions, electronic items, jewelry just as much as Any Ethnic Group. If they didn’t care about “materialism” then why are they complaining about not having enough job opportunities? I mean, if they don’t care about making money to have “material things”…then what’s the problem?
In the news recently, in our city, some young black men in a gang who were in a “war” with another gang knocked over an old black man while running. The man suffered a fractured hip and couldn’t get up until he was “discovered” the next morning by white police officers. What happened to all the compassion those young black men, according to you, show to people of their own race? If cocaine is involved, these black men are out for themselves alone..they sure don’t show much concern about “the black community”. Plus, they interviewed that old man on television and he just shook his head and said how “these kids are ruining our neighborhoods..just killing us.”
I just think you painted yourself into a corner with the “blacks aren’t materialistic” thing and the “blacks all care about their communities”. I agree that there’s racism in America..but blacks are not paragons of humanity any more than any other ethnic group.
@ admin – I usually don’t ask questions like this but I’m quite annoyed. Being that this is a blog documenting and discussing racism; one ran by social science professors/researchers and grad students; and most commentors here come to learn more and/or already know a bit about racism, white racial frame, etc; should any commentor feel compelled to prove this or that that we’ve learned and know? Ie, should I feel compelled to site the specific study and numbers to commentors who don’t know and demand to be “convinced”?
I plan on googling this, but I’m still stuck on “hebes” and ashtrays, and kittens and black people. I’m sorry. I just don’t get the jokes. And I wonder if it’s because white people maintain even harsher stereotypes of “others” than I realized. But anyway, what’s “racial differences in personality” and are the differences biological or cultural?
Joe, I can appreciate your position, which if I understand correctly is something like this: “You (Darin) show up here demanding to be convinced, but the arguments are complex and it’s not something I can spit out in a few paragraphs. If you’re really interested, do the research.”
Fair enough. Here’s the problem I have, though. What you’re describing about American, the social science you claim exists, and the logic you seem to be applying are completely foreign to me. They’re contrary to what I see every day and what I believe I already know. You talk about built-in oppression, but all you offer to back it up is that Blacks don’t seem to do as well as Whites when it comes to things like income. Well, I’m not uneducated when it comes to social science, I understand how it works, and I know more or less what’s wrong with the reasoning. I’ve tried to raise one problem (i.e., ignoring IQ), but all I’ve gotten back is an accusation of racism and an assertion that IQ doesn’t exist. Not very persuasive.
I’ve asked a couple specific questions here that I think are perfectly reasonable and germane, but nobody has bothered to answer them: How do you account for Asians? If Blacks and women had had a seat at the table during the founding, what would be different today? Those aren’t rude or loaded questions, they’re just hard questions. Yet it seems they’ve been ignored in favor of telling me I just don’t understand because I haven’t read the right books. You can see why that too is not very persuasive.
I’m sure I know more White people than you do, and I feel pretty confident that their motivating principle is not racism — either in favor of whites or against any other race. In fact, I think there’s a tendency to be a little embarrassed about the differences between races when it comes to things like income and academic success — I suspect that most Whites would be relieved if every field of business, every college, and every jail turned out to be proportioned by race. Maybe then we could, “Just shut up about it, for the love of God!” if you see what I mean.
The reason I presume to argue with you in what is obviously your field and not mine is that I assume your objective has got to be to convince people like me that you’re right. It’s hard to see how you’re going to get anywhere without convincing a bunch of regular White people to go along with you. Is that controversial? It shouldn’t be. The Civil Rights movement, for example, was successful because enough Whites were convinced (by Blacks, perhaps) that it was morally necessary. The Civil War was fought mostly by White against other Whites, in part because they thought slavery was abhorrent (I won’t deny there were other reasons, too).
So I think its entirely reasonable for me to wonder whether you can convince me, and I also think you should relish the opportunity to try. I’m probably a harder target than, say, Dave Paul (#32), since telling me I’ve been lied to all my life does not sway me. I’ve long since taken responsibility for my own education. I’m actually intrigued by the challenge of reading and attempting to refute your book, but of course the effort required is way beyond what I can dedicate to it. But besides that, your strategy can’t possibly be to get every White person in America to read your book; you must be able to distill your arguments down to a few hard-hitting points. Is there a pamphlet version somewhere?
Again, I appreciate your efforts and attention. I certainly intend no disrespect, just healthy disagreement, toward you or Kristen.
Darin Johnson said: “I’ve asked a couple specific questions here that I think are perfectly reasonable and germane, but nobody has bothered to answer them: How do you account for Asians?”
Absolutely Darin! I agree. Nobody on this site Ever seems to address Asians Or people from India who Carl F. stated are so dark could easily pass for black. It’s just one of those complicated questions that defy the logic of: 1.we’re black..that’s why we have such a hard time in America or 2. we’re a minority..that’s why we have such a hard time in America or 3. white people don’t do enough For Us..that’s why we have such a hard time in America. The entire premise is [I assume] if Whites Could Change Their Thinking regarding blacks..and give them : 1.more tax dollars 2. more free programs regarding education, health care, housing 3. accept everything without question about the “black culture” from black drug dealing [they just do it cause the whites won’t give them a job] to celebrating Kwanza Instead of Christmas…everything would be square..well almost..cause it’s fair game to dislike the entire white population no matter what we do Anyway!
The fact is that historically [and this is documented] blacks have been the recipients of more welfare checks than any other ethnic group in America. And many blacks [well..some of the ones on this site anyway] still feel that their future success depends Not On Them but on someone else. It’s this displacement of responsibility that many whites find frustrating..to keep taking white tax dollars and then telling whites how racist and stereotypical they are.
It’s never enough..Head Start..Start Over..Free Pre-K for Blacks. There’s this continuous cry of “I can’t do it..I need help..I can’t make it on my own..so what if the Asians and people from India made it..I Still can’t do it..I can’t, I just can’t.” Yes you can! Let me repeat that: Yes you can!
This from President Obama regarding blacks and their future:
“President Obama recently admonished black America not to search for handouts or favors, but to “seize our own future, each and every day”.
I think this is infinitely logical. Some blacks think this is insulting. I don’t understand that logic at all. I mean blacks were instrumental in putting Obama in the Oval Office..so take his advice. You trusted him enough to put him there..so take his advice. I think Obama’s a good man. I voted for him myself and I’m white. I’m proud he’s our president.
smoke – You’re wrong on history. You’re wrong on your assumptions of what you think we think. You’re wrong about Pres Obama cause he said much more than that. The questions about Asians was answered.
Just in general cause Darin isn’t reading my comments – I hardly think we should have to convince every single white person of the need to change. Too many just don’t want to be convinced.
When it comes to how things would’ve been different had women and blacks been at the Constitution Convention –
1 – no slavery
2 – vote for everyone
3 – equal protection under the law for everyone
4 – women would’ve had the right to own property, even after marriage
That’s just what comes off the top of my head.
“I’ve asked a couple specific questions here that I think are perfectly reasonable and germane, but nobody has bothered to answer them: How do you account for Asians?”
That’s a lie. I’ve addressed that “model minority” meme from several angles and didn’t even bring up the self-selection aspect. Others have addressed your working-backwards question as well (see Kristen’s comment about your stereotyping that doesn’t account for Asian American groups that don’t fit your ‘model minority’, high achieving/well off/not-held-back Asians meme).
I stated plainly that yours is a blatant case of not letting the facts dictate what the reality is regarding racism in America. FACTS, Darin, not your dime-a-dozen stereotypes and talking points.
If whatever point you think you’re making attacking the strawman you based your Asian question on… if you had a point then there would be no Asian Americans who feel like they are being discriminated against. No Asian Americans who feel like White racism negative impacts their lives and life chances. But that is clearly not the case.
You have no regard for Asian-Americans, much less what they have to say on the question of racism in America. So, really, how do you “account” for Asians when want to invoke them and their experience but don’t consult what they have to say, themselves, about their experience?
The obvious answer is: the game is over. Matter of fact, it’s been over for a while now.
Such rank ***hypocrisy***…
Li, who was enrolled at Yale and now studies at Harvard, cited a white classmate from his high school who was admitted to Princeton with lower test scores and grades as alleged proof of racial discrimination
Indeed, the very ***schizophrenic*** nature of your denialisms has not gone unnoticed. Go ahead, continue your complete and total silence.
Could’ve sworn I closed that tag. But anyway . . .
@ Darin – What do you need to hear or see to “convince” you that racism remains the underlying factor behind the disparities in income, housing, education, criminal justice, healthcare, wealth accumulation, cost of borrowing, etc and so on. What “evidence” will “convince” you?
To smoke.a.newport and Darin – I know there is not extensive information on this site regarding Asian Americans as “model students” or “model minorities.” I can actually give you a great deal of information on it, the book I published last summer with Joe was actually centered on this topic. So, let me try to squeeze some of the main points (from 200 pages) into a short blog comment:
1. Asian American is an umbrella term that incorporates the most nations and ethnic groups. So, there is much diversity in their educational attainment. There are many Asian American groups with less than high school education at rates of 30% or more. 59% of the Hmong, for example, have less than a high school education.
2. This myth of the model minority comes from the seeming success of Americans of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Asian Indian, and Filipino descent. However, there are structural reasons that these groups differ from other Asian Americans (from Southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands) First, over 50% of Asian Americans have immigrated after racially restrictive immigration laws were lifted after the Civil Rights Movement. These immigrants came VOLUNTARILY, and to do so, the visas they were awarded were for specific purposes. These were academics, scientists, engineers, and middle to upper class entrepreneurs. So, it’s not a crosscut, realistic representation of the general Asian population. Instead we were getting the top graduate and undergraduate students. Top scientists, engineers, physicians, then they had children in the United States and a good indicator of a child’s education is their parent’s level of education. Interestingly, immigrants from African nations are seeing the same results. Second generation Nigerian Americans have top SAT scores, and high educational attainment. This is because this is VOLUNTARY immigration regulated by immigration laws. This explains disparity with other Asian Americans. Largely, the Hmong, Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Laotian Americans where they were political refugees. There wasn’t SELECTIVE immigration in this case because of our involvement in wars in Southeast Asia. The Hmong educational attainment is among the lowest in the United States.
3. The numbers are still misleading. With household incomes for Filipino, Japanese, Chinese, Asian Indian, and Korean Americans, being higher than white Americans, it seems like the Asians in the United States just “have it together.” However, all of them have higher poverty rates than whites. A few things account for this, first there are usually more people living in the households. So, while income may be higher, there are more mouths to feed. Secondly, over 50% of Asian Americans live in places with high cost of living, California, New York, and Hawaii. So, that money doesn’t go as far.
4. I could go on with more facts and data (Just so you know all the numbers I’ve shared are straight from the US Census). The biggest point I want to make is that even though Asians seem like they have it together and that they are naturally more smart, the truth is there is a racial morphology at work (Haney Lopez 1996). Touting Asian Americans as “models” was a strategy AGAINST integration. Japanese Americans that were excelling in California were actually responding to the racism of Internment Camp during WWII (Tanaka 1999). So, even though East and South Asian Americans appear to be making it, they still face discrimination. The type of East and South Asians that are in the United States is not by accident, it’s by handpicking the creme de la creme. There are high rates of illiteracy throughout Asian nations, rural areas where children stop going to school after the 2nd grade. Largely, those are NOT the ones coming to the U.S. on work and student visas.
I hope this information has been helpful in explaining the Asian phenomenon, which is really socially engineered, NOT biological.
See also the “Categories” pull-down menu in the left nav bar, and select “Asian Americans,” for numerous posts going back two years.
I think I have a post caught in the spam filter due to several url’s/links. Anyway, here you go, Darin:
[Jian] Li, who was enrolled at Yale and now studies at Harvard, cited a white classmate from his high school who was admitted to Princeton with lower test scores and grades as alleged proof of racial discrimination
Rosalind, I never once, nor would I, used the term “model minority.” I have lots of un-PC views, but I’m not patronizing.
Emphasizing the fact that “Asian” in the census includes a wide range of nationalities that actually have very little in common genetically is a great point. In my favor. I’m the one saying that racism can’t explain why Blacks do poorly since there are other racial groups that do so well. The fact that the distinctions go even finer makes my point even stronger. I mean, some White racist suffering from false consciousness can hardly be expected to tell the difference between all these pesky little sub-groups. Yet their performances differ. Why?
Furthermore, you state that the Asians who came here were the cream of the crop, and that’s why they and there descendants do so well. I have no idea whether that’s true (I doubt it, but I’ll drop the point for now) but it doesn’t matter: it makes my point EVEN STRONGER. High IQ Asians settled in the US, and they and their offspring prospered. Makes sense.
I’d like to recruit Rosalind to my side. She’s making my case for me!
If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that Asians are actually poorer than Whites, but this is lost in the census data because they live disproportionately in expensive areas and have disproportionately large families. Well, that’s a testable hypotheses. However, I would bet money that it doesn’t change the fact that the high-performing Asian groups (Southeastern Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese) really are high performing. Would you like to make this wager? Besides, income is hardly the only area where Asian’s advantages show up. Take a look at any school of engineering, computer science, or physics. They’re utterly dominated by Asians. Why?
However, I will concede a point to you. Asians do face discrimination. They are already no longer considered “minorities” for diversity-credential reasons by many colleges, and the University of California system is considering steps whose implicit purpose is to admit more Blacks and Hispanics at the expense of Asians. That’s unfair. All races should compete on equal footing for college: grades and test scores, that’s it.
“Just in general cause Darin isn’t reading my comments – I hardly think we should have to convince every single white person of the need to change.”
Many white people who have commented on this site who have entered here with the Best of Intentions, truly trying to understand your perspective have been treated with Utter Contempt! I read some pretty cruel comments addressed to [for example] MOM. She seems to be a very nice lady by anybody’s estimation.
I happened to notice she was a Native American, which is my area of expertise, and while doing so was appalled at the manner in which her thoughts and feelings were treated! This is the verbal abuse she was exposed to that I noticed. Check it out :
“Yeah OK..but you don’t Really Understand! What do You know about the black experience! You don’t know shit! LOL! You live in the Twilight Zone! LOL! Aw Shucks..I just gotta say it…A-freakin’-mazing!..Get this..Typical White Stereotype bullshit! You think you know us..You’re Stupid..just a dumazz! This is too much..I can’t stop laughing!”
I mean what is that? I don’t see “intellectual open-minded discussion” when I read those comments. Apparently people on this site just couldn’t resist kicking the crap out of her because she wasn’t as “intellectual” as you? Didn’t have a degree in sociology..just a good heart!
No..you don’t have to convince anybody of anything..I agree! Neither do whites who come here Trying to understand your perspective but never completely will because they’re not black (Duh!) have to take this unbelievable brow-beating when they get jumped on by a pack of jackals.
Tonight you actually had to work a little harder than usual No1KState cause it appears your like-minded friends weren’t here to back you up. Well, there will be nights like that. But you take this burden on yourself. You don’t have to convince every white person to change or even address every white who wanders on this site. However,you need to take ownership for the choices you made..just cause it’s more work than you expected is no reason to cry about it.
For what it’s worth I think you’re actually brave to do this. But please don’t take the position of: “I need to do this to change the world…but it’s too much work”. In all honesty, did you think it would be easy?
I get the impression you are a young woman..maybe I’m wrong. But young people have a tendency to be naive when it comes to changing the world. Everyone can forgive naive..just don’t be cruel when it suits you and then act all weary and tired when you have to be on the defensive sometimes. Just another tough night of saving the world…
To Rosalind: Thank you for all the information. That was interesting. In the large southern city where I live, Asians are definitely admired for their work ethic and the manner in which they push their kids to excel. In fact, the children continue to amaze with their almost prodigy-like achievements! I suppose this could be a factor of the Asians here being the creme de la creme from their individual countries.
By the way, I would never attribute ambition and work ethics to “biology”. I don’t think one race is superior to any other on a genetic level. My point was a sociological one..that some ethnic groups in America stress achievement more than others, some ethnic groups stress extended family ties more than others etc. These are socially conditioned phenomena that have nothing to do with genetics. These are values that have been part of that group’s social psyche for long periods of time.
I know from reading about you that you are Asian. Rosalind S. Chou is co-author of The Myth of the Model Minority: Asian Americans Facing Racism. I might read this. I work with many successful Asians..they surely don’t seem to face discrimination..everybody admires them. However, I will abstain from generalizations till I read your book.
smoke – You’ll noticed, Mom actually likes me. So please don’t hang all that baggage on me. You didn’t even address the point of my response which was that, no, I wasn’t citing any specific study, just making a general observation in answer to Darin’s question. But, you will have to forgive people “like me” if we aren’t to receptive to people who seem to have other agendas, who don’t seem to want to learn but teach, and who “just don’t see race.” I for one try to stick to points of fact. Others can be harsher in their critique, but no one made any personal insults towards Mom. If people come here stating their contrary views, they should expect to have their opinions torn apart. And that’s all that happened.
Here’s another personal observation. Most commenters here, especially if they’re black, don’t come here to have to “prove” this or that or “convince” this or that other poster. We get enough of that offline, thanks. Kinda like I went to classes prepared to learn, not prepared to explain how only white males could wonder if it was always necessarily bad to lose your culture.
And, smoke. Please don’t call me out to address issues with other commenters and then put words in my mouth. Yes, I’m a young woman. But I’m hardly naive. I don’t mind having an open, intellectual discussion with someone who’s trying to understand a different perspective. I do, however, mind having to explain the same stats over and over to people who aren’t really looking to learn.
@ Darin – Racism doesn’t have to play out the same way, or to the same extent with every group. On the scale of acceptability, different groups are at different levels. It’s no wonder that these cream of the crop Asians, who are stereotyped as incredibly smart, come over and do well. Rosalind doesn’t make your point. Actually, you unmake your own point. How can you on one hand argue that racism doesn’t play the role we think it does, but on the other hand espouse so many racist views?
Darin…. Darin…. All races should compete on equal footing for college: grades and test scores, that’s it.
[Jian] Li, who was enrolled at Yale and now studies at Harvard, cited a white classmate from his high school who was admitted to Princeton with lower test scores and grades as alleged proof of racial discrimination
Your hypocrisy is showing. And no amount of closed-eye, ignoring facts in plain view talking points can hide that. Can’t hide this either:
New UC admissions policy gives white students a better chance, angers Asian-American community
A new University of California admissions policy, adopted to increase campus diversity, could actually increase the number of white students on campuses while driving down the Asian population.
Now angry Asian-American community leaders and educators are attacking the policy as ill-conceived, poorly publicized and discriminatory.
“It’s affirmative action for whites,” said UC-Berkeley professor Ling-chi Wang. “I’m really outraged “… and profoundly disappointed with the institution.”
Under the new policy, according to UC’s own estimate, the proportion of Asian admissions would drop as much as 7 percent, while admissions of whites could rise by up to 10 percent.
The White Man’s Guide to Getting a Minority Scholarship
Tennessee State University => “scholarships for Caucasian Tennessee residents.”
Alabama State University => special Diversity Scholarships programs for both undergraduate and graduate white students
Alabama A&M University => like ASU, scholarships to boost enrollment of those underrepresented in the school: whites and Native Americans. “Large chunks of money have been earmarked each year to attract white students” at both schools.
Jackson State University => university Diversity Scholarships restricted to Caucasian applicants…
Alcorn State => Full and partial scholarships are awarded to “non-blacks” and candidates must have at least a 3.0 GPA to qualify.
Mississippi Valley State University => offers undergraduate and graduate Diversity Scholarships for “non-black” students
The trolls are too much. They have time to draft up offensive posts and dispute the truth others are speaking, yet don’t have time to read a book? They could have completed the Racist America reading by now and had many of their questions answered.
Just because this is not their area, it’s funny that they just can’t seem “to get” any of main posts or comments that address their questions. Hell, people with no college education come on here and follow the main posts just fine. It’s cracks me up to see folks with no college having a higher intellectual capacities than the white educated folks above.
White supremacist folks above, there are some theoretical concepts you may want to familiarize yourselves with in order to follow. I understand that would be a real challenge for you as the main tool you rely on in terms of keeping your false positions so strong is to cling onto stereotypes and lies. But learn some fundamental theoretical concepts that non-college folks who read here have not have to do: Systemic Racism; White Racism; Institutional Racism; White Privilege; and as Joe has noted and defined, the White Racial Frame. Once you read some of this work, then you might be able to follow. If you read some of those works noted above and learn some of those concepts and you still can’t follow or understand what’s being said, then your intellectual capacity is weak. All of your racist questions above are answered in those readings already. Do the readings, then come back with questions. Perhaps serious conversations could then take place.
“If whatever point you think you’re making attacking the strawman you based your Asian question on… if you had a point then there would be no Asian Americans who feel like they are being discriminated against. No Asian Americans who feel like White racism negative impacts their lives and life chances. But that is clearly not the case.”
I’ll give you that there are probably “some” Asians [not many though..cause they’re making money hand over fist now!] who feel discriminated against as a minority…but hear this: They Sure Don’t Identify With Blacks! No Way..and they don’t want to either.
I have, actually, quite a few Asian friends and you talk about black jokes..whoa! I mean, they do not want to be identified with you! They have eyes..they can see the housing projects falling apart, the high rate of black-on-black crime that I mentioned was a Fact in the large southern city where I live, the way black teenagers present themselves playing rap music at 1,000 decimals through their neighborhoods, the way there is a disproportionate amount of blacks in low-paying jobs such as MacDonalds and Burger King and Kentucky Fried Chicken.
The Asians complain cause they don’t get into the IVEY LEAGUE college of their choice…I mean we’re talkin’ a whole different level here. Don’t be comparing yourself with Asians…CAUSE THEY SURE DON’T COMPARE THEMSELVES WITH YOU GUYS!
To smoke.a.newport: Actually, there were Asian Americans in my research that very much identified with African Americans. They were not the majority of respondents, but they were the ones who had a larger understanding of institutional and systemic racism. They were very clear about understanding the significance of the Black Power movement and civil rights. Even built coalitions with African American student groups, etc. There was a range. Those not as racially aware as the respondents I just mentioned would even say, “I saw in this country who was oppressed and knew that I had to act more like white people.” I had several respondents say things like this. Then there were some who just saw the situation like many people who aren’t familiar with race scholarship. These Asian Americans would adopt the racist stereotyping about other people of color and themselves. It was very sad to see. But, I did want to stress that there are DEFINITELY Asian Americans that identify and admire African Americans and DO wish to be compared with them.
Thank you for defending me, but it was really not necessary. I beat to a tune of a different drum. However, I was verbally attacked by the lack of understanding of the subject, but if you notice, I stayed around to learn, regardless of what anybody thought or said about me..
Joe-I agree with you regarding the IQ test. I had that debate in one of my psychology classes with my professor. My belief was and still is that everyone of us that is born into this world has a certain degree focus.. Some people are more focused then others, and how can measurement be done on the majority of people with different levels of focus. The answer was that everybody’s IQ can be increased, period. I lost the debate, but we had fun…My professor, was a little pissed off at me to say the least, but then again, I was questioning the beliefs of psychology.. I do believe the first measurement regarding IQ was introduced 1905…However, I do know that the true founders of psychology dates back to 300-600 BC, also known as, philosophy.
I pulled my son out of the public school system when he was in eighth grade because of what the school administration was trying to do to him, regarding, labels…My son, is a deans list student in one of our local universities, and I believe, is a true genius. (I may be a little bias), but he is a true example of what I was debating with my professor 20 years ago. Thanks Mom:)
@Rosalind: Thanks for clarifying the Asian debate. While I still have my personal inclinations on Asian vs. Black achievement, your post was very helpful.
@Kstate: Your quote from post #51 [“Then why not support affirmative action? Affirmative action is about equal opportunity, not equal outcome.”] If it’s not about equal outcome, only equal opportunity, then why is everyone so concerned with disparate impact?? One could argue that the opportunity isn’t equal to start out with but that depends on what situation your applies applying that logic to.
@Sativa – trolls with come and go. If you have followed this site for any length of time, you’ll see that they eventually fall of the wagon. Plus, as Jessie (or maybe Joe) mentioned that they allow a certain number or vile posts through the filter, not to cause offense, but to allow the other to dissect and debunk their arguments – which I think is great component to this site. However, [“Hell, people with no college education come on here and follow the main posts just fine. It’s cracks me up to see folks with no college having a higher intellectual capacities than the white educated folks above.”]. It cracks me up that you’re able to discern peoples educational attainment via internet posts. Bravo!
Nothing serious to add, here. I just wanted to highlight the great metaphor in #66 — “I beat to a tune of a different drum.” I’m not sure whether you meant that as a joke, but it’s hilarious. I love it!
I have noticed a lot of people coming to this site and then leaving because they were not taking the time to learn exactly what “racism”means in America…They were stuck in a certain “frame of thinking” as Joe and others have mentioned time and time again…So, I started to look a little harder at this site, and have done a little research, regarding, what was being proposed..I have to agree with what is being said…I believe, it’s a “higher order of thinking’ regarding racism, and I am grateful to learn, and maybe, help to educate other people of my own network.. As far as “beating to tune of a different drum”? I try to look at people not by the color of their skin, education, social status etc., but by they way they treat other people in general..I believe that to be a “higher order of thinking”, however, in order to achieve that kind of thinking you would have to experience a tremendous amount of pain. I would discuss this with you further, but I don’t believe this would be an appropriate site.. Thanks, Mom 🙂
Mom, just wanted to say that I greatly appreciate your post #69. Thank you, and I am glad you have stuck around.
Mom comes right out and says: “However, I was verbally attacked by the lack of understanding of the subject, but if you notice, I stayed around to learn, regardless of what anybody thought or said about me.”
Mom Knows she was attacked..so don’t deny it! And she wasn’t attacked because of her lack of understanding of the subject matter…calling someone a “dumazz” and “stupid” is not an Intellectual attack..it’s personal. She was attacked because of the unbelievable Reverse Racism that exists on this site. If you truly believe that All Whites are White Supremicists..that’s Reverse Racism! Period.
Then you claim that everybody who doesn’t accept every tiny little dot and tiddle you espouse as Gospel Truth [yes ma’am..now I am a believer..forgive me ma’am for questioning the All Mighty No1KState’s Wisdom..your highness..sorry I exist..so sorry to offend..so sorry..] is in “Denial”?
Where do you get this stuff? I mean really..My truth as I see it is just as valid as Your truth as you see it..study Plato! Truth is a relative term especially when it comes to human dynamics. Racism is not an exact science like physics or chemistry. Surely you must appreciate this.Let me repeat this cause it’s extremely relevant to this site: Racism is Not An Exact Science Like Physics or Chemistry!
Mom happens to be a class act..and is obviously willing to forgive the little juvenile-acting people who were so rude to her. Yes..and this from a “troll”..is that yet
another intellectual term..along with the ever-admirable “dumazz”? From which “study” and “statistical data” did you discover this label?
Again, I do appreciate your intelligence and commitment to your cause. But being cruel will not serve your purpose. And I think YOU’RE in denial on this particular point.
@ smoke – First, Mom doesn’t say I attacked her. So don’t call me out in order to admonish other people. Second, Mom admits, was you quote, that she was “attacked” because of her lack of understanding, not because she was “white.” Third, thinking all white people are either racist or complicit is not “reverse racism.” Sorry.
~ Wise and Omnipresent, No1KState, The All Mighty ~
Mom, what’s the difference between what you’re saying and what some crazy-kooky cult might say? “You don’t agree with us now, but if you stick around long enough you’ll come to see things our way.” Oh, really? You mean if I read all your literature and listen to enough speeches I’ll eventually be brainwashed into your way of thinking? (This is an extreme way of stating it, to make the point.)
People who have truth and science on their side don’t talk like this. They can explain why what they think is true actually is true. They’re prepared to present their reasoning to people from the outside in a transparent way.
I have seen no indication that this site represents an interest in not judging people by the color of their skin, by the way. What am I missing?
“First, Mom doesn’t say I attacked her. So don’t call me out in order to admonish other people. Second, Mom admits, was you quote, that she was “attacked” because of her lack of understanding, not because she was “white.” ”
Gosh.. I think we have a clear cut case of DENIAL here folks, don’t you think? I rest my case!
Also, it’s supposed to be “Wise and Omnipotent”..not “Wise and Omnipresent”. The first phrase means you’re all powerful, the second means you’re everywhere at the same time.
Name calling, in regard to anybody from your little side of the sand box, is unprofessional and kindergarten mentality. And again, calling someone “dumazz” and “stupid” and saying “LOL” everytime someone, especially someone kind and gentle like MOM, is trying to make a point tells your audience (ie the people who read this website) alot more about You than it does about who you’re being abusive to.
How I’ve come to those conclusions about how “I”look at life has nothing to do with CULTS. Obviously, you have some growing to do. Please do not include me into these negative arguments.
I did a little more research on “hate crimes” and what surprised me is that the “Jewish Americans” experience more “hate crimes” in America then any other ethic group.. This study did not include Asian people. Thanks, Mom
To Darin: Mom’s one of the nice people so don’t hurt her. She’s new here. She’s not part of the jackal pack..she’s actually a victim of it.She’s a sweet little Native American woman who came onto this site and was made fun of repeatedly by “the regulars”..exactly the way they went after you. [They travel in packs for safety..or lack of courage actually].
But as far as everything you said…YEAH..WAY TO TELL ‘EM DARIN! The funniest part..if you just plain don’t buy what they’re selling, they say you’re in Denial! I mean..it’s definitely got its comical side..know what I mean?
One last thought before I go to my second job:
Racism is Not An Exact Science Like Physics or Chemistry!
I hope everybody has a good evening. It really would be nice if we could have a true meeting of the minds. We are, after all, All Americans..that should mean something. If we persist in this infrastructure bickering it will make us look ridiculous to the rest of the world. I think we should back Obama All the Way!
@Mom – Will you please tell smoke that you and I have no beef?
@smoke – I didn’t call her names. All I suggested is that the criticism she got, however it was verbalized, was because her views were wrong.
And yes, I meant omnipresent – being everywhere at all times. Correct me if I’m wrong, but using both “omnipotent” and “all mighty” would be redundant, right?
For all the charges back and forth of who has science to support their views and who doesn’t, I haven’t read any comments giving evidence to support that black Americans are holding ourselves back. And seriously, you cannot dismiss the finding of a study on the basis of not holding for IQ. How Asians immigrants with high IQs and better opportunities which they are able to pass to their children proves the point that racism doesn’t have a negative impact on black people, I don’t know. I’m not quite following the logic. It’s not just the IQ that’s genetically inherited, it’s being in neighborhoods with better schools, having parents with a better income who can afford more educational opportunities and exposures, etc and so on. So, not only has no one given in evidence proving that anti-black bias is not a barrier to African Americans, no one has really poked any holes into the theories put forth here.
@ siss –
Here’s how I see it: 1 – Considering everything we know, if the US were really post-racial, there wouldn’t be any disparate impact or outcomes. 2 – When certain policies have disparate impact or disparate outcomes, it’s a signal that maybe something’s going on. So, you dig farther and studies find racism. 3 – I personally don’t have a problem with quotas. If it’s true that the US is post-racial and that there’s every opportunity for upward-mobility – even though went economic studies and models predict the opposite for this generation at least – if it’s true that neither race (nor class) has a negative impact, then we should see test scores, college graduation rates, prison population, home-ownership, etc and so on, that pretty much mirror the population at large, or at least comes fairly close. 4 – Since a lot of people would bulk at that, or at least argue that it’s not feasible, the next most reasonable thing to do is legislate and enforce legal opportunity. 5 – I guess what I was trying to say, however poorly worded, is that anti-racist don’t seek to flip the situation whereas people of color would dominate society. What we want to do is ensure equal opportunity and justice for everybody, especially those currently not receiving it. So, if it’s the case that this is a meritocracy, then white Americans have nothing to fear from legislation that ensure everyone has an equal opportunity to display their merit.
Think of it like this: say you live in a town that just passed a new noise ordinance that nothing go above 25 decibals. If you never play music or anything above that level, you can go about life as normal. I’m using that same kind of logic. If there isn’t racial bias, the putting in place measures to ensure no one faces racial bias shouldn’t be such a big deal.
@ siss – Yes, that’s the basic argument. That there really is no equal opportunity. Sorry for not saying that upfront.
No1K and I have do not have a beef. In fact, we had a nice discussion at the end of the “pool segment” that was posted. I guess, we found a mutual respect as human beings.
NoK – I found your explanation, regarding, linguistics to be very interesting. Thanks, Mom:)
@Mom – Will you please tell smoke.a.newport that you first represented yourself as a single WHITE parent” before you said you were a true Native American Indian?
@smoke.a.newport ___ Your post would have some redeeming value if it wasn’t the biggest joke…
Nowhere did I say Asian-Americans identify with African-Americans. Whether they do or they don’t is immaterial to the clear point I made that post simply could not touch. Instead you went on some rant, raving about rap music which is largely bankrolled by White corps and White teens. Color me unimpressed.
I also made nothing close to a comparison between Asian-Americans and African-Americans. None at all. None. I simply schooled your blindfolded friend, Darin Johnson, who (like you) is clutch his cuddly stereotypes to help in sleep at night or whatever his and your problems are with letting the facts, not stereotypes, determine the truth of the matter.
Speaking of facts, its just so unfortunate that you borrowed Darin’s blindfold when you composed your post #64. That’s the only thing that explains why you act like my post #56 didn’t pre-emptively sink your curious assertion that “Asians complain cause they don’t get into the IVEY LEAGUE college of their choice.”
Curious because I’ve repeatedly made such a point to Darin inducing his severe, chronic shut-ups. But, not only that, your post is curious because the survey data I quoted in post #56 explored how (1) Chinese/Asian-Americans feel like “perpetual foreigners” or “Others” due to the racism they experience; how (2) 39% of report experience “verbal harassment” racism; how (3) many, 54%, believe they as likely to be racially profiled as Arab-Americans; how (4) many believe their loyalty to the USA is questioned because of their race/ethnicity; how (5) many feel like they are not only discriminated against on college campus but continue to be limited by (6) a racist glass ceiling in the workplace and (7) suffer because of a lack of adequate representation in the halls of government.
That’s seven (7) things I counted without even trying and the only thing you came up with was one… one thing that Darin wants to twist because, apparently, it just too hard for him (and, now, you) to face the facts.
Mom – Thanks, and you’re welcome.
“Not judging people by the color of skin” This discussion, I thought, was about cultural differences maybe theirs something that I’m missing…This fact the jwbe kept using the word “Euro centrism” was how I was able to understand a little better the concept of what everybody was talking about…My suggest, look the word up, and then maybe you would be able to understand..I also asked Joe on another post why he would use the expression “white frame” because I thought that expression would be a little offensive to most “white” people that visited this site, and they would close their minds immediately to what was being discussed.. However, when you look at a person white, black, yellow, and red,do you judge everybody at first glance? Or do you get the know them a little better then make a judgment about that person? ..Do you have friends from all different races, or are all of your friends from one particular race? I don’t know anything about you, however, I would assume that you have friends from all different cultures…So, my question to you would be why do have friends from all different races?
6/6/1775–Declarations of Cause(“The Americas are resolved to die as freemen rather live as slaves”. Sounds like a hyporcritrical statment coming from a bunch of educated men.
7/4/1776-Declarations of Independence-I do believe, it may have been singned by those same men.
1778-US Consitution Signed -Articles 1-7 each with different Sections, and then 27 Amendments. My guess, would be enacted by those same men.
1865- Abloslishment of slavery – Bloody war over that one. However, I read the Abe Lincoln did not really want to abolish slavery, but rather contain it to the Southern states, but the Southern states got mad and decided to split from the North, so the Civil War was born.
1870- Amendment for all men to vote..The only reason why was because there was only 6% of the population at that time that were white land owners, so they needed the black mans vote.
1920- All women were allowed to vote
1924 – All Naitive Indians allowed to vote, which I found very surpising being that these people who now are almost istinct are responsible for 50 to 60 percent of the worlds food supply regarding vegetable…
So, this is how I came understand what was being discussed on this site…Shoot me I don’t care, but I watch the Military History Channel a lot, and have came to the conclusion that the English were nothing more then a bunch of WAR mongers, and their mission in life was to search, kill, and destroy, which they have done a fine job throughout history…That’s is my opinion. I’m not including the other Europeans that came over to the “New World” and wipe out masses of the native people with diseases, or try to convert them into their way of thinking…
You said you received an accusation of racism, which I assume referred to my statement:
I just wanted to clarify for you and for other visitors here that you were not ACCUSED of racism (although I realize it may be interpreted that way); I was making an observation, linking your perspective to that which is referred to commonly as biological racism, in a nutshell: the belief in the biological/innate superiority of one or more races over others. Your comments here made clear that you believe racial inequality can be explained by blacks’ intellectual inferiority, for example, you said:
I called your perspective “outdated” because it is. This idea has been disproven. In fact, the notion of “race” itself as something that is biologically meaningful has also been disproven by scientists (i.e., what we refer to as “race” – skin color + select phenotypic traits – does not correlate with any other characteristics). A resource I recommend on this topic (especially for the non-reader) is a PBS documentary called Race: The Power of an Illusion (your public library or area college might own the DVD). It is quite illuminating for most everyone who watches it, because the idea that race is biological, that people really can be effectively sorted into 5 or so racial categories, and that there are fundamental innate differences between these groups, is such a taken-for-granted assumption in our society. I don’t fault you or anyone else for believing it.
Now I refer back to your statement:
I do think you should provide some support for your claim here, since you say you have it.
Lastly, I was mentioning this thread to my partner who holds a PhD in Neurobiology, and he said the entire concept of I.Q. was abandoned by that discipline (these are the brain scientists, as you know) in the early-1900s, because any “measure” you try to use just amounts to a skills test.
Okay, Kristen, fair enough. I keep pounding you guys about not providing any backup, so I’ll pony up. First a little housekeeping, though.
I’m not sure how the “observation” that I’m an “adamant believer” in something called “biological racism” is different than an accusation that I’m a racist. “Racist” is a pretty ugly accusation (maybe the worst thing you can say about a person in this place and age), so I would hope you’d be more circumspect that to use it cavalierly.
To shore up the point that race exists, I will quote from “Taboo,” by John Entine. I choose this example because it’s completely objective; even if you don’t like the book, the example is salient.
“All of the thirty-two finalists in the last four Olympics men’s 100-meter races are of West African descent. The likelihood of that happening based on population number alone – blacks with ancestral roots in that region represent 8 percent of the world’s population – is 0.0000000000000000000000001 percent.” [i.e., impossible]
I think I counted the zeros properly. You’re not seriously going to deny that there’s a difference between men from West Africa and the rest of the world when it comes to running super fast are you? You’re not going to try to tell me that it’s because of culture or opportunity are you? Remember that these men may have genetic roots in West Africa, but they grew up all over the place.
Based on this kind of thing (and there are infinitely many other examples) it’s blindingly obvious to anyone who’s willing to look that race exists. The implications of that are another matter, of course. The fact that Black men run faster or that East Asians think faster is not relevant morally. But it matters when you propose to use outcomes as a basis for establishing the presence of racism.
“Power of an Illusion”? You know, it’s funny, you’re arguing that race doesn’t exist, yet you’re the one claiming it’s the central fact on which America exists. I, on the other hand, claim it does exist, but that it should not matter in a moral context. Strange.
I don’t know your friend and I don’t know neurobiology, but I do know that IQ is alive and well among educators, the military, colleges, psychologists, and social scientists — despite the best efforts of the PC crowd to kill it. It’s just too powerful a tool, it won’t die. Besides, even if he’s right, what’s the point? Of course it’s a skills test, but that has no bearing on whether it’s a VALID or MEANINGFUL test. The 100 meters is a skills test, too. So what?
Below is a smattering of links about the gap. I’ve tried to choose paper’s whose authors want the gap to be small, so you won’t think I’m selecting to favor my side.
I’m sure these won’t convince you, but hopefully they’ll stop you from implying mine is not a valid position, that it can be dismissed without rebuttal. There are a million more, plus books by Murray, Pinker, Flynn, and others, many of which try to explain the gap away, but none of which deny it. My intent is not to dwell on this issue in and of itself (although I suspect that may be difficult now that we’ve gone down this road). I just want to make the one simple point I made above: there’s a lot of cheating that goes on is social science, and one big cheat is to assume IQ out of the running.
I posted a response, but it’s not here. Am I blocked or something?
When anyone posts a comment with multiple links, the blog software automatically reads it as ‘spam’ and it goes in the spam folder (which I tend not to monitor that closely because mostly it’s, well, you know, spam). Just an FYI.
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:42 pm
@Mom – Will you please tell smoke.a.newport that you first represented yourself as a single WHITE parent” before you said you were a true Native American Indian?
Your Honor..may I respectfully address the jury? Thank you. Mr. Nquest was extremely rude to “MOM” when she ventured onto this website approximately a week ago. It’s well documented he used terms such as “Just Stupid” and “You live in the Twilight Zone” and “Aw shucks..I just gotta say it..You’re just dumb!” “LOL” “Dumazz!”
In regard to the post he made at 8:42 PM last night which you may all read above, Are We To Assume He Justifies His Unprofessional Insolent Child-Like Behavior Toward Mom Because He Thought She Was White? Are we to assume from this post that if he thought she was “a true Native American Indian” he would have treated her with more respect?
First of all, if this is indeed the case, then we can safely label NQuest as a bona fide racist. He judges people and speaks to them with/without courtesy based on race alone!
Secondly, if we re-read the conversation wherein Mr. NQuest was unquestionably crude and cruel in his treatment of the defendant, He Made Many Of These Unprofessional Comments AFTER she stated she was a Native American.
Joe, Jessie and Rosalind, True Scholars if there ever were, Never Address anyone in this manner. One of Joe’s works was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. How would he appear to the public,who esteems his credentials, if he addressed his debate rivals with “Dumazz!” “Mo-Fo!”
Thank you your Honor. The defense rests.
I like some of the things Darin said on this blog. But I absolutely don’t buy the theory that races are genetically different..when it comes to anything Other than overt physical features. Someone’s mind and intellectual faculties are not the same thing as the shape of someone’s nose.
Charles Darwin’s “scientific” findings in the late 1800’s did alot to convince even highly educated people that some races were inferior/superior to others.
Charles Darwin stated,”It might also naturally be enquired whether man, like so many other animals, has given rise to varieties and sub-races, differing but slightly from each other, or to races differing so much that they must be classed as doubtful species?”
Darwin actually thought some homo-sapien races were a “sub-species” of the white race. This is pretty extreme thinking and many whites in the late 1800’s justified their treatment of blacks based on Darwin’s Descent of Man.
Descent, Chapter Seven: On the Races of Man, pp.343
-differentiates between the different “races” and claims that some have different mental capabilities than others.
“The races differ also in constitution, in acclimatization and in liability to certain diseases. Their mental characteristics are likewise very distinct; chiefly as it would appear in their emotional, but partly in their intellectual faculties.”
-shows that his racist viewpoint of non-Aryan races to include even the Irish:
“A most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class has been strongly insisted on by Mr. Greg and Mr. Galton, namely, the fact that the very poor and reckless, who are often degraded by vice, almost invariably marry early, whilst the careful and frugal, who are generally otherwise virtuous, marry late in life, so that they may be able to support themselves and their children in comfort. . .Those who marry early produce within a given period not only a greater number of generations, but, as shown by Dr. Duncan they produce many more children. Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: ‘The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits…”
Charles Darwin’s “scientific research” did alot to further racism with “scholars” all over the world. Some of the stuff he wrote, obviously, like the natural selection theory in regard to all fauna was brilliant. Too bad his discoveries were laced with racism.
Smoke, is Charles Darwin the one who’s scientific research indicated that we all evolved from a “Mud Slicker”? I treated my grand daughter to a day at the Aquarium, and I was surprised that Darwin’s actually thinks that we all evolved from a little tiny lizard/tadpole like creature…My thoughts about this is that if this were true, then why are there still “mud slicker’s? Did some of the”mud slickers” say ” no I don’t want to evolve I want to stay as a “mud slicker”? I also question a lot of “theories” about evolution.. I don’t mean to be a smart a**, but I actually see the humor in some of the “world renowned theorist”. I liked Einstein because as brilliant as he was he still believed in a power greater then his scientific research..I also like the work of Carl Jung in his theories about analytical thinking.. What I like about Carl Jung is that he also had a a more spiritual philosophy, regarding, his work with psychology..Thanks Mom:)
I agree with smoke.a.newport on the no-name-calling issue. If people on this site want to be taken seriously, there’s no room for hurling insults at anybody whose opinion differs from yours.
I just finished listening to Obama speak. He said he spoke personally to both the white police officer and professor Gates about the arrest incident. He said he feels that both parties were good people and that he feels both parties over-reacted “a little”. He also called for “national unity”. He said we needed it very much.
It seems to me that some people on this website would rather see this country burn than extend a hand in unity to the other race. Reminds me of Heath Ledger’s interpretation of the Joker in the last Batman movie. Batman’s friend Alfred tells Batman..when asked what motivates people like Joker..”Some people just want to watch the world burn.”
There’s also a great line in “Tombstone” when Wyatt Earp asks Doc Holliday why people like Johnny Ringo are so angry and filled with hatred. Doc says, “To get even”. Wyatt says, “For what?” Doc says, “For being born.”
The other thread was closed because of ‘personal attacks’, becoming off topic etc.
Post Number 89 is nothing else than a personal attack…
Are whites not able or not willing to create spaces free of the ‘white racial frame’?
jwbe says:Post Number 89 is nothing else than a personal attack…
Are whites not able or not willing to create spaces free of the ‘white racial frame’?
How about an apology from NQuest to Mom? That would be nice. She surely deserves it. She’s a great person. I’m surprised she stuck around after that beating she took a week ago. Signed: The White Racial Frame..Includes Glass Window!
>How about an apology from NQuest to Mom? That would be nice. She surely deserves it. She’s a great person. I’m surprised she stuck around after that beating she took a week ago.
those who defend mom ignore in their white mind that she lied and talked down to other people, that she offended other people.
But I didn’t come to to this blog to have exactly these racist situations like anywhere else on internet, where whites get the support regardless what they do.
This is supposed to be an anti-racist blog or something like this and not a place where whites can repeatedly confirm themselves in their whiteness.
Mom-smoke a newport Says:
July 24th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Smoke, is Charles Darwin the one who’s scientific research indicated that we all evolved from a “Mud Slicker”?
Hey Mom, well..most paleontologists and zoologists definitely believe we evolved from other mammals. There’s a tremendous amount of scientific evidence [fossils mostly] to substantiate this. They think that life began in the ocean with one-celled organisms. [This is Very Commonly believed stuff..so I’m just reiterating what all the science books tell us.]
After that..life on earth evolved into 2-celled organisms etc. We’re still in the ocean here. First life forms were these tiny critters. Eventually, after millions of years..we actually had “Fish”. Then these fish started appearing with fish flippers that were especially sturdy. They then used these “sturdy flippers” to venture onto land! And voila..life becomes amphibious [that means can go on land And water..frogs are amphibians].
OK..let’s see..then more and more fish-that-could-walk traveled on land..and some stayed! Now, we’re getting into land creatures. The ones that stayed began life on land alone. Then we go to the Triassic Period..about 250 Million Years ago..when the Earth was crawling with dinosaurs..tons of different types of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are reptiles..cold-blooded..scaley skins..lay eggs and don’t give birth to “live” offspring.
Dinosaurs hang around millions of years. And some dinos have slight similarities to mammals..hairy coverings, whiskers..but still basically reptiles. Well, the dinosaurs died out..maybe cause of an ice age..there’s various theories on this..nobody knows for sure.
Then enter: the mammals. They have fur/hair on their body and give birth to live young and breast-feed infants and are warm-blooded. Now things get complicated. There is a great deal of evidence that chimpanzees are the closest animal in the “animal kingdom” next to modern day man. Appears from fossil evidence that apes gradually started to walk upright and their cranium [brain casing] got bigger to accomodate a larger brain.
Well larger brain Means dominance over the planet..cause these “smart” apes learned to use tools, make fire, cook food, walk upright, use ‘sign language’ and a whole host of other things the other mammals couldn’t do. So..yeah..I believe in evolution. And basically, if you go back far enough..I think we did evolve from mud-slickers..otherwise known as amphibians. Cause, everything that inhabits land evolved from these amphibians.
I think it would be nice if we all came from superior beings or something like that..but scientific evidence tells us otherwise. Although, I would never exclude what many scientists call the “God Factor”. That means if you dig..deeper and deeper and deeper..there is still a big question as in “Yeah..but then who created the Universe?” Scientists are divided on this issue of a Superior Intelligence who “got the whole ball rolling” so to speak. So I’m not “taking official sides” here..God may be looking down on me right now saying, “You have no idea where I am or where I’m going.”
And that concludes our nightly broadcast of “Paleontology 101”. 🙂
from the ‘about us’ section here:
RacismReview is intended to provide a credible and reliable source of information for journalists, students and members of the general public who are seeking solid evidence-based research and analysis of “race,” racism, ethnicity, and immigration issues, especially as they undergird and shape U.S. society within a global setting.We also provide substantive research and analysis on local, national, and global resistance to racial and ethnic oppression, including the many types of antiracist activism.
where is the resistance to racial oppression on this blog’s comment section? This is like white-led ‘anti-racist’ organizations that rally against racism on the streets but don’t dare challenge the racism within their own organization and those who challenge it are considered as the ‘trouble-makers’. THIS just can’t be real here.
and from the OP:
In these resistance/anti-racism counter-frames whites are defined as problematical, and ideas and strategies on how to deal with whites and white institutions are developed. Among other things, a developed counter-frame includes understandings of how discrimination and racial hostility work, examples of dealing with discriminatory whites from family and friends, and teachings about safety and various passive and active strategies of resistance to a variety of white discriminators.
Well..here’s the thing jwbe:
This website is monitored by The Distinguished Joe Feagin and Jessie Daniels. With lots of help from Rosalind Chou. All published authors..considered authorities by any measure on Racism and Its Repercussions. Joe, alone, is a Pulitzer Prize Nominee! I mean if the guy gets the Nobel Prize I wouldn’t be surprised. Pretty heady company, wouldn’t you say?
And..They decide whose texts get posted on this site. Now..if they want me to leave..I’ll leave..no problemo! I’m mean..one word from Any of Them..and I’m gone.
You do not decide who can say what, think what, feel what, or even play Texas Hold ‘Em on this site. Sorry if I have a soft spot in my heart for MOM. Sorry if I see brutality by bullies and I point it out.
Think..if Jessie, Joe and Rosalind think I’m so off-base with my “I think Kindness and Civility Count” routine..then they’d tell me to leave.
With All Due Respect.
PS I’m the one who criticized Darwin’s writings regarding “superior races” on post #90. I think that was a very valuable post and would probably convince Some People to think twice about concluding one race is superior to another on a genetic level.
Of course, you just see through Your Bias a white person and you then create all Your Assumptions about me that aren’t even based on fact.
I was just thinking..the truth is this website Means Much More to You than it does to me. Re-reading your comments..I get the impression my presence really upsets you. I mean I’ve enjoyed myself here for a week, but it’s not like it’s the end of the world for me if I don’t post anything..or even read anything on here again.
You guys really are on a mission, in your own minds. Obviously this place is some sort of a “sacred forum” for you to express your feelings. And apparently white people whose views even differ partially from yours, seem to upset the “delicate balance” you guys seem to think you have going.
I really don’t want to upset this balance cause..like I said..this site means way more to you than it could ever mean to me. So I won’t be posting anymore stuff on here anymore.
Plus, despite how I sound..I actually have done some reflection on some stuff you guys espouse. You’re a little too militant for my taste. I mean I sense Everything is a Reflection of White Racism with you..which is OK..I just don’t see things this way. I mean if I buy a white T-shirt at K-mart’s instead of a black one..I think you guys would consider that choice..White Racism.
Good Luck and I hope you learn alot of cool stuff here. I’ve enjoyed talking to you.
You’re a toughie..I’ll give you that..but I think you have a good heart. Keep on “saving the world”..cause if anybody can do it, you can.
@ Joe, Jessie and Rosalind:
Admire the work you do here. And if it were up to me, Joe, I’d have given you the Pulitzer.
Thank you for that explaination..I have to tell you that I already knew most of it, but I wonder, about “theroies”. I’m more of a FACT person. That’s why I took the time and researched the FACTS about what was being discussed. Anybody and arugue about theories, but they cant’s agrue about facts. When I first ventured onto this site I didn’t understand period. I do believe that’s maybe why some of the people just were defending the FACTS about racism, but I keep telling everybody to take a Social Economics Class.. However, after a while, I just started asking some of the “nicer” more level headed people questions because I didn’t understand why I had to keep defending myself, or why I was getting the backlash, until I started taking a harder look at this site. It got out of control and I said some things to.. However, a lot of white people that come onto this site are brutal and then leave, and I mean just really nasty. However, I was surprised they left their comments up on the internet, and deleted my rebuttal because my rebuttal was not as nasty as the others.. Anyway, I was thinking about the many different cultures around the world. I’ll get back to you about how many people, but I do believe there are approx. 7,000 different language spoken. I believe every culture should be proud of where they came from because that is their roots, their ancestry, or their tribe. I believe we all originated from a tribe and that includes all races. However, in America, we don’t think like that we think ethnic groups. I believe, every ethnic group wants to feel proud of who they are, regardless, of what group they belong to. This is their “God given right” as human beings. However,at this time the percentage of “whites” are higher, but that is supposed to change by the year of 2050. I dont know if it’s because whites are going to be leaving the US, or because we are going to become an extinct race. I do know that a lot of Americans are leaving the US right now because they don’t like the” politics” that is going on in this country. They are finding other countries to live in because it’s just plain hard to live here, and that has nothing to do with races. It has to do with corruption of “white collar” America.
Thank you for the education, regarding, the FACTS about racism…I have to say, I’ve learned alot in one week then most people learn in a life time…
I would suggest that maybe if you would just state the FACTS a little clearer to most people that visit this site that they would proably keep an open mind about what is being discussed…I also believe that there should not be any personal nasty remarks made to other people who come here seeking knowledge about what is being discussed…
I will tell my friends and some of my family members who by the way are “BLACK” about this site and what I’ve learned..
My suggestion to all of the negative energy that is being wasted. Take a moment of silence each day, burn some sage incense, and do some reflection on how you treat other human beings…Never allow your mind to except negative words, thoughts, or actions from another person. If feeds your ego, which then reinforces the negative feelings that you feel about yourself..Experiment: The next time someone says something you don’t like, do not react, do nothing, do not allow what is being said to enter your mind…It works!!!Sometimes people tend to say stupid things without thinking, but you are only responsible for how you feel and think..
With love, light, peace, and hope MOM
this is what is stated on this site:
We also provide substantive research and analysis on local, national, and global resistance to racial and ethnic oppression, including the many types of antiracist activism.
and on this post:
examples of dealing with discriminatory whites from family and friends, and teachings about safety and various passive and active strategies of resistance to a variety of white discriminators.
Of course, readers come here for different reasons. But I don’t read a lot about actual anti-racist strategies here, strategies that work or not and why. What ways are effective, what can white people actually do in real life, starting with family and friends where every white who challenges racism probably also knows how difficult this can be, workplace/school, institutions etc.
also it would be interesting to have discussions about white women and anti-racism, I am white female and in every organization I joined so far not only racism was a problem but also sexism, white males on the top, happily discriminating. I am tired of that. I am tired of white male ‘experts’ who fill every place of social life and declare it their own.
I have no problem with people who actually want to learn but also have the respect to acknowledge that they have only limited knowledge and therefore they are humble enough to read here, and to ask questions if necessary, but not trying to impose their non-knowledge on all others.
I also don’t understand why people who do not agree feel the need to post here and try to disrupt. Go for example atheists in a Church, shouting ‘I don’t agree with you’ and starting debates with the believers there? Or in general, when average people join clubs/organizations etc, do they deliberately join where they disagree only to express their ‘opinion’?
But when it comes to anti-racism and internet it is very common that those who have a ‘different’ view feel free to interupt and get too much room to do so, and I don’t understand why this can happen here? Why is it that those members who agree with the content of this page have to face insults etc.?
This website is monitored by The Distinguished Joe Feagin and Jessie >Daniels. With lots of help from Rosalind Chou. All published authors..considered authorities by any measure on Racism and Its Repercussions. Joe, alone, is a Pulitzer Prize Nominee! I mean if the guy gets the Nobel Prize I wouldn’t be surprised. Pretty heady company, wouldn’t you say?
yep and when even these people are not able/willing to create spaces free of racism, how disappointing is that? For me it is, I have to say, but perhaps I really joined this site with wrong expectations.
And because I feel like the troublemaker here it’s probably me who should leave this blog and also the entire American internet, I don’t know.
I have learned alot on American internet but its perhaps time to go. This is how it feels at the moment
@ Darin Johnson –
I think the book “The Race Myth” by Joseph Graves, Jr. presents a lot of credible evidence that contradicts your notion and perception of biological races.
It’s important to bear in mind the distinction between “superior/inferior,” which carries a moral connotation, and “different,” which does not.
I hope that those of you who insist that there are no differences other than the most obvious physical ones between races do not rely on that as a justification for believing that racism is morally wrong. Whether there are differences is an empirical question and frankly it has been answered in the affirmative, whether you know it or not. There are many, many statistical correlations between behavior, physiology, and personality on one hand and race on the other. (I believe, although I’m not positive, that it is generally possible to identify race probabilistically simply by looking at genes.)
Race has been described, by Steven Pinker among others, as an extended, highly inbred family. Since you obviously share more genes with your brother than with a stranger, it stands to reason you’ll share more genes with someone from your race than someone from another race. How is that not obvious? Based on that, to believe all races are identical, you have to believe that all people are identical. Well, I’ve got news for you — they’re not. It might be nice to hold hands and buy the world a Coke and talk about that great day, but it ain’t today.
To borrow some language from those White guys you all disdain so much, “all men are created equal” because of the unalienable rights endowed by their Creator — in other words, equality is a moral question, not a technical one. It’s impossible to look at Thomas Sowell, who is an accomplished, educated, intelligent man, and say he’s equal in a technical sense to some wretched slob who just got his third strike stealing cars to pay for his meth habit. The equality on display here is their moral equality due to their humanity. And that’s about it.
So what’s the point? Well, technical equality matters when you talking about outcomes — we don’t expect different people to have the same outcome. Moral equality matters when we’re talking about process — we differentiate based on what people have actually done, not what group they belong to.
Mom, there’s a common misunderstanding of evolution. As a shorthand, people say we evolved from chimps, which raises your question, Why are there still chimps. Biologists don’t actually believe we evolved from chimps. What they believe is that we and chimps both evolved from a common ancestor which no longer exists.
Human evolution is fascinating. I recommend “Before the Dawn,” by Nick Wade for those who are interested in the subject. He’s the science writer for the New York Times, and the book is an overview of humanity basically from the time it began to migrate from Africa to now. Apparently, all non-African races are traced back to a very small number of people (possibly as few as 150!) who crossed from Africa to the Middle East about 50,000 years ago.
jwbe, why on earth would you think this website is a “racism-free zone”? This website exists to identify (and I would argue, to foster) racism wherever and whether it exists. This site is based on the notion that racism is everywhere and that it’s the founding principle of America.
I have yet to get anyone to tell me whether people other than Whites can be racist (can they?), but depending on that answer there’s only two ways this site could be free of racism, by its own definitions:
1. No Whites came here (if only Whites are racists).
2. Nobody came here (if everybody is racist).
I will resist the temptation to speculate about which is more likely.
I’m the Neurobiologist who questions your call to “control for IQ”. What Kristen meant when she said that IQ is a skills test is that your proficiency on an IQ test depends on life experience (like the amount of practice you’ve had answering the kinds of questions that tend to appear on IQ tests) and is not innate. So, taking it back to the study in question, if you controlled for IQ and found a difference, what could it mean?
Well, it could mean that the “Low IQ” group didn’t have access to the kind of education that the “High IQ” did. We already know that systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country. So in this case, you could say that the job recruiters may not have been racist, but it would only reinforce the fact that racism is pervasive, since the African American applicants were screwed by racism years before they got to the interiew.
The core of your objection really seems to be that you don’t believe that the experimenter’s assessment was accurate. Fair enough. This is a subjective field and there’s no way to know “the truth” about the accuracy of the experimenter.
But what about the “resume” experiment in which identical resumes were sent to employers, the only difference being that the names of applicants were traditionally African American in one case and White in the other. The “White” resumes got far more callbacks. There are no uncontrolled variables in this experiment. The employers are using the perceived color of the applicants as a proxy for some other assumed quality. That’s racism.
It does seem reasonable, doesn’t it? But it’s not true. The reason is that the mental categories we use when we assign a person to a race in our minds depends on only a few genes having to do with superficial appearance, when there is a whole ocean of genes that we do not see that collectively determine genetic similarity. As a result, there is MUCH less correlation between what we think of as race and our genetic heritage than nearly everyone assumes. For example, there was a funny story on NPR recently about a guy who had assumed his entire life that his heritage was African, because he “looked black”. But when he hired a gene analysis service to analyze his ancestry, there was not a drop of Africa in him.
I understand how you feel about the discussions that happen often on this website. Many people who have very little understanding of racism (and I wonder what percentage of people/Americans in general have even heard the term antiracism…) come here to debate, and they always find ready opponents.
I share your disappointment at how the conversation gets co-opted by those who dismiss the antiracism discourse altogether, or those who demand we explain or justify our shared understanding (i.e., “White racism? Are you saying only white people can be racist! That’s racist! You’re the racist ones!”). I guess for me, though, it feels more like frustration than disappointment. I want to be open to others and assist them in gaining more knowledge if that’s what they are ready for (this is the optimistic, patient teacher in me), but it gets very exhausting exchanging with newcomers who have little, or bad, information and who want to debate as if we’re all on equal ground here. I have learned that race is one of those topics on which everyone feels like an expert, even if they’re up against a scholar of race. Sometimes I bemoan, Do botanists have to deal with this? Random people telling them, “You don’t know anything about plants, let ME tell you about plants.”
I’m glad you’re raising this issue. There are certainly some very good discussions that happen here, but it is worth thinking about whether we want to ask the site administrators to designate an explicitly antiracist space somewhere on this website. I wonder what the options are, but it seems to me that asking for more stringent monitoring is going to lay a lot more work on someone’s shoulders, and as far as I can tell, Joe and Jessie are already committing a huge amount of time and effort.
.Let’s think about the options!
Kristen, I think that’s a disappointing post. Really patronizing. If you think the “science” that goes on here is equivalent to botany you’re just wrong. But you don’t really think that, do you? Any peer-reviewed journals of racism studies? (By the way, the proper comparison is physicists, you’re supposed to ask whether Steven Hawking ever has this problem.) If you don’t like debating with me, stop. I hope you don’t stop, of course.
Nick Bentley, I don’t know you. You say you’re a neurobiologist, so I’ll assume that’s true. What that means is that you’re smart and that you’ve had a decent education. It doesn’t mean you know anything about this topic, so I’m not automatically going to defer to you. Fair enough? I don’t say that to be rude, but to explain why I’m not just shutting up at your say-so.
You can be sure that if IQ test and the black-white gap could be explained away by education or diet or language or culture or any other one of a million factors, it would have been by now. This result has probably caused more heartburn in sociology than anything else — especially for the politically correct sort who tend to practice in this field. They bend over backwards to make it go away.
I mean, be honest, don’t you think if the gap could be explained by something as simple as education some Harvard sociobiologist would have done the work? He’d be a hero! And remember, this is a full standard deviation or more, not some minor different that has to be teased out. How about looking at the references I provided, or providing some of your own. Am I supposed to be convinced just by your word? No, I suppose not. But the choir will be relieved to hear that you disagree — their dogma is safe.
My objection is NOT that the experimenter’s assessment was incorrect. My objection is that it is INCOMPLETE and her conclusion is not supported by her analysis. You next statement, that there’s no “truth” anyway, is so inane I wonder whether you’re even being honest about your own background. No offense, but there either is or is not a meaningful thing called “g,” and there either is or is not a significant difference among races when it comes to that, and that difference either does or does not explain why White students got more jobs. It may not be easy to figure these things out, but the experimenter in this case didn’t even bother with that question — she skipped right to the conclusion. That’s bad science.
I’m not at all aware that “systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country.” That’s question-begging. You’ve still got exactly the same chicken-and-egg problem you had before. Do you see?
As for your second post, if you truly believe that the genetic makeup of a third-generation White guy with four Scandinavian grandmothers is not (on average) closer to a random Swede than it is to a Black guy in Alabama whose ancestors were slaves — let alone one who’s still in Western Africa — then I guess I won’t try to convince you otherwise. Oh, yes I will… http://www.goodrumj.com/Edwards.pdf
I know about the callbacks study. I think the Freakonomics guy talked about it, unless I’m mistaken. What do you want me to say? The author of Kristen’s study explained why this would happen (i.e., the correlating characteristics). I won’t go through it again, since it’s completely superseded by the discussion above.
I don’t know, maybe we’ve reached the point where we’re just going to go in a big circle. You guys asked for my sources, I gave them to you. You made no effort to refute them or even comment on them. This has been a one-way thing. You ask, I answer. I ask, nothing. You demand, I provide. I request, nothing. What would an impartial judge who had no stake in the discussion think?
Let’s try to bring this around to what I believe is the point. The point is not to talk about IQ and gaps and all that other stuff. My point is to get you guys to consider that there might be some other explanations for variations in outcome besides the racism of White people toward everyone else. You seem to assume the worst about White people and America, and although it may not be nice to face up to the idea that races vary in unfair ways, the psychic rewards might be worth it. You can quite obsessing about the perceived wrongs being done you and live you life.
I say that in all earnestness, without any malign intent. Please take it that way.
>I have learned that race is one of those topics on which everyone feels like an expert, even if they’re up against a scholar of race. Sometimes I bemoan, Do botanists have to deal with this? Random people telling them, “You don’t know anything about plants, let ME tell you about plants.”
the ‘experts’ pop up when it comes to social issues and stereotypes serve to discrimate against a certain group. Think about the West stereotyping Islam for example and read in comment sections, the West defines what Islam allegedly is and indirectly (and sometimes directly) consider Christianity as the civilized religion vs. Islam the uncivilized religion which has to be civilized [moderate Islam or in Europe also called ‘Euroislam’], with the underlying assumption that Islam itself is backward and only with ‘Europeanizing’ it it becomes ‘progressive’]
Darin, you could have had at least of had half of another book read by now—like the Systemic Racism, which would provide a contextual answer on why it is that “systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country.” And if you disagree with the theory, then you can bring in some serious dialogue to these threads.
One thing I do have to agree with that you said: “Racism is not a science.” I don’t know where that was ever claimed. But sociology is in the academic cluster of social sciences. By and large both the social and physical sciences operate on theories and one of the primary differences between the the two is how measurements take place and data is analyzed—which is why we always have standard error and scientists typically do not. Both the physical sciences, such as biology, and social sciences, such as, psychology and sociology have been racist in the past, which has resulted in a practice called eugenics. I would argue that still takes place today—just in different forms. Through both quantitative and qualitative analyses, many studies have shown that racism still plagues this society.
I personally happen to be a fan of Emile Durkheim, whom drew off of some of Darwin’s Origins work and completely demolished eugenic and Social Darwinism folks like Herbert Spencer. Both Durkheim and Darwin (at least in Origins) argued that there is more variation within groups than between. Both the physical and social sciences have supported those early claims. And your argument on siblings is pretty funny too as when my uncle was looking for a stem cell match due to his cancer, not one of his 4 siblings matched. An unknown donor from who knows where was a match.
You and even smoke-a-newport above seem to have a sincere fascination with racism and the field of sociology. My question is, if you’re so determined to challenge the work and claims made at this site, like other scholars, why don’t you read some books and bring some critiques? Then your questions would not be like the one noted in the beginning of this comment because you would already have an answer. Instead, you could either offer an alternative theory or suggest how that theory could be improved. What’s so hard about that? If it’s the case that you are financially strained and too embarrassed to admit that is the reason you haven’t begun reading, send a mailing address to either Joe or Jessie and I will get a copy of Racist America to them to send to you. That would also help you with your question on if you purchased a white T-shirt over a black one, would that equate to white racism.
Sorry, smoke-a-newport asked the white T-shirt question. But it would still provide an answer to questions such as those.
@Darin Johnson –
Genetic differences within races is as great, if not greater, than across races. Again, see “The Race Myth”.
For example, sickle cell anemia is often considered a disease that only afflicts Afr-Am. or those of African descent. However, Kenyans (who by all accounts will fit into the racial category “black”) and those with Kenyan heritage don’t get sickle cell anemia–Kenya is very mountainous with very few mosquitoes which plays a role in various disease risks. However, Syrians (who would not fit into the racial category “black”) actually are susceptible to sickle cell anemia.
These “physical”, racial, genetic differences you describe are really a function of geography and human migratory patterns, not inherent racial characteristics.
Darin Johnson said: “My point is to get you guys to consider that there might be some other explanations for variations in outcome besides the racism of White people toward everyone else.”
Darin here is speaking about IQ. BecauseI like the way he worded this, I’m going to take the Liberty Of Changing His Premise A Moment to state my case. I actually don’t believe that blacks differ genetically on an intellectual leval from whites. The “variations in outcome” I’d like to refer to are the financial gains whites make over and above blacks. This is important because financial gains translate into an over-all better life style, agreed? Better health care, nice home, comfortable car, choice of nutritious food, nice clothes, access to many things that contribute to better education for children:books, computers, vacations wherein children can see historical sites etc. Agreed?
Well, many educated black people who have left posts on this site have stated the case that it’s necessary to blend in to the status quo to achieve these material advantages..and these advantages are considerable..especially in America! If it were me, I’d pull my pants up around my waist instead of wearing them around my knees, I’d study hard in Public Schools Available to All, I’d try to speak the English the teachers in these systems teach instead of shouting “No! That’s racist to try and get me to change my English”.
A BLACK woman had an answer to the blacks on this cite regarding doing a disservice to black children in encouraging them to “defy conforming to the status quo”, [as you would define it] because you are crippling them in your zeal. You are teaching them Any Conformity to the Status Quo is Giving In. I guess it doesn’t matter that your words will doom these kids forever. Your words will Positively Ensure they Stay in the housing projects. Do you really care about these kids? Do you? Here’s the post:
ms booker Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:59 pm
“I was a black studies major. I am black. Grew up in a Midwestern, black church-surrounded community and now live, unchurched, in Washington, D.C. While the juxtaposition of the poster’s visual messages leaves much to be desired, I find the hand-wringing here a little much. Racism is prevalent — that’s undeniable — but failing to address how we remove these young males from a trajectory and behaviors that doom them to inertia is just as criminal as institutional discrimination. You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided “tolerance.” Better outcomes can be achieved through a combination of personal responsibility within their families, better education, and *well-managed* state or nonprofit assistance, as well as volunteers. I understand that this show-your-bootycrack trend is an offshoot from prison culture — I get that –but we have young boys emulating this behavior long before jail becomes a dangerous reality. And the behavior doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s linked to other behaviors that lead to certain outcomes that affect not only these young black males, but the communities around them.
Now, in a perfect world, we would all be tolerant of more “casual” styles of dress in the workplace, or on the street. But this ain’t merely casual. More, at the end of the day, I don’t care if John White Boy enters a job interview in flip flops, a tee-shirt, and a baseball cap. Oh, the injustice! If you know the cards are stacked in some way — and black folks have known it for 400 years — then the objective is to take the damn cards from the opponent. It’s called dominance strategy, and though black people in this country have often had a much harder time applying it to their circumstances than ethnic whites who don’t share our slavery-based history, many have achieved it. Along the way, some of these people have been called “Tom” and ” Sellout” while quietly financing the lives and educations of many others.”
Naturally you jumped all over her “lack of logic” which is Absolutely Astounding to Me! I have my doubts whether you really care about the young black children you proclaim to defend. I see such a zealous, blind hatred for ‘anything that smells white’ that you’d rather ‘throw the baby out with the bath water’ than even concede 2 millimeters.
You sit there with Your Educations already under your belt, with loads of time to type on these blogs, loads of time to read study after study…while the poor black children are struggling Not Against Whitey but against, at this point, Your Misguided Idealogy that tells them “Hey..c’mere kid..don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us..be black and be proud..education/schmeducation!..who gives a damn..wear your pants on your head if that’s what you want!..Bill Cosby and President Obama want you to sell out..but I don’t! If you do, you’re a rat to Our Cause! Get it?’ Children are Not Lab Rats. Let me say this again: Children are Not Lab Rats.
And this while you continue typing..all your “American” educations and masters degrees in tact. And I assume your refrigerators are Full of Food also.
I say this not with disrespect but with conviction. Thanks.
Also Darin and smoke-a-newport (if you’re still around)—it is wise to read up on literature you perceive to be a direct threat to you or your group and not run from it. If you perceive Joe’s work, and the work of others as threatening to you or your group, you may want to know what’s being said. You have the luxury and privilege of being able to do so, where as many who have been targeted in the past for things such as, oh I don’t know, genocide, eugenics, slavery, etc., did not. And it’s not like this work is all secret and a covert conspiracy to bring harm to white people (it is directed at challenging the systems of oppressions that are harmful for all people)…why don’t you learn what’s being said?
To Darin @ #112–some peer reviewed journals of racism studies include: Ethnic and Racial Studies (which incidentally is one of the top ranked sociology journals); Race and Class; Race, Gender, and Class; Phylon; and the DuBois Review. Additionally, several top ranked peer reviewed sociology journals also publish research which is reflected in many of the arguments mentioned on this blog (see for instance American Sociological Review; Social Problems; Social Forces; and Annual Review of Sociology). You may not respect it, but sociology (and the racial/ethnic minorities/racism subfield within it) is a rigorous field of study that is on par with any other science. Because people often think their commonsense, everyday observations serve them well enough, it’s easy to dismiss the research in this area (particularly when it doesn’t conform to what people *think* they know). But racism studies, at least in sociology, follow strict methodological and theoretical protocols that allow researchers to offer well-informed, scientific analyses of how society works and the role of race/racism therein.
To your IQ questions, are you familiar with Claude Steele’s work? He’s a Stanford psychologist who has done extensive research on the concept of stereotype threat. Generally, Steele’s work shows that when people are under the impression that members of their group do not do well on tests, their performance on said tests suffers. If I remember correctly, Steele found variations in performance in various groups (whites males, white women, blacks, Asian Americans) when test-takers were told that people in their groups underperformed on a given test. Many contemporary researchers suggest that this, coupled with class, actually does do a lot to explain away racial differences in testing.
To Carl @117: I resent your implication that attention to and focus on structural racism is done at the expense of any real concern for black children (or adults). You don’t know the people who post or write on this blog. You don’t know what they do in their personal lives. Do you know that people affiliated with this blog have gotten death threats for speaking out about the impact racism has on black youth and children, an impact they only have a sense of because they take the time to *listen* to the very black youth you think they are ignoring? Do you know that people on this blog volunteer with an organization that services poor women and children (who are mostly black due to the nonprofit nature of the organization and its location in an inner city), in an effort to address the hard consequences of racism that we write about? Do you know that people who write this blog have had family sever ties with them because these blog writers cared about, and spoke publicly about, racial problems like police violence and racism in media? Do you know that the work done by some of the scholars who post here has been invaluable for students of color, who read these studies and are relieved–sometimes to the point of tears–to see evidence of things they’ve only suspected and have been taught to believe are figments of their imagination?
You don’t know us as anything but screen names. You don’t know what we do when we’re not on this blog. So quit with your sanctimonious assumptions when you have NO IDEA of the sacrifices–personal and professional–that people on this blog make in their efforts to improve life chances for black children–and for ALL children.
I hear what you are saying. I think that’s admirable that you volunteer in the housing projects. You’re right to point this out to me. I was not aware of this.
But why did you jump all over ms. booker’s statements regarding black children blending in to achieve financial success in America? What was wrong with her concern [and she sounded genuinely concerned] about this hand-wringing at the expense of black children?
It just appears to me that you guys put philosphy above practical survival mechanisms. ms booker’s stance is the exact opposite. She is saying: do what you have to do and take the cards from your opponent if the cards are stacked against you. It’s called dominance strategy. She was a black studies major in college. Surely she has credibility in this area. Why did you guys jump all over her?
Cause we weren’t saying that black children shouldn’t use dominance strategy, we were saying they shouldn’t have to.
ms. booker, a Black woman who majored in black studied [see #117] stated, “You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided ‘tolerance.’ ”
What in the world is wrong with this approach?
Your Misguided Idealogy that tells them “Hey..c’mere kid..don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us..be black and be proud..education/schmeducation!..who gives a damn..wear your pants on your head if that’s what you want!..Bill Cosby and President Obama want you to sell out..but I don’t! If you do, you’re a rat to Our Cause! Get it?’
This is both ridiculously dishonest and patently racist. It’s the idea that Black people, even Black children, are too dumb to know or do what’s in their best interest. Even worse, it says that Black people/Black children don’t have the capacity to think on their own because it assumes that the only way Black people/children come to believe what they do is by somebody telling them what to think. Somehow, American society and history itself, has nothing to do with the views Black people/children have. You, see according to CarlF, Black people/children have to be brainwashed by somebody to think what they do — i.e. Black people/children don’t have the mental/intellectual capacity to make observations about the world they live in and form their ideas, even ideologies, without the help of someone else.
This is also evidence of how people like CarlF (and even Ms. Booker) don’t have any real point or at least none that deal directly with any points the people he calls “you guys” have actually made. Unable to effectively dispute/debate the people he calls “you guys” on substantive points, CarlF would rather erect ridiculous strawmen arguments that come nowhere close to anything that’s been said here.
don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us
… is simply ridiculous. First, who the hell is “Whitey?” Second, what does “hate” have to do with it?
These child-like terms reflects on CarlF’s inability to engage in an adult level conversation/debate. But let’s see, CarlF, what’s your alternative?
List the thing “Whitey” tells Black kids to do that Black kids should do because “Whitey” says so. I guess that’s what this is all about after all. “Whitey” should get to tell Black people/kids what to do and Black people/kids should listen to “Whitey” because “Whitey” knows best or whatever this bs is about…
I suppose that my post (#111), which was not directed at you by the way, sounded patronizing to you because it alluded to the basic fact that you are not a scholar of race and other people here are. Now, this doesn’t necessarily mean that someone like you has nothing valuable to add to the discussion (indeed, you have not been ignored here, and you have not been shouted down, and several of us have tried to explain some research findings to you).
But it does mean that many of the other posters here have done a lot of studying on these topics and have read the few things you have read and much more, written papers and books, debated with others, listened to umpteen lectures, given lectures, joined community groups, had discussion upon discussion, learned methods of scholarly criticism, research, and analysis, etc. This is the work that people have done. I have done this work for a few years and have gained a solid base of knowledge; I have a lifetime ahead of me to keep learning. There is always something to learn, some deeper way of understanding things.
Again, it’s not to say that race-racism scholars are the only ones who should get to talk about these issues, but it does mean that some of these people used to be where you are in terms of knowledge. Some of us may try to identify where you are at in terms of understanding and make suggestions to you – books, an article, a documentary. We are open to hearing what you have to say, but we also appreciate being able to have a discussion where everyone is on pretty much the same page as far as understanding systemic racism. I empathized with jwbe’s lament that a site like racism review can’t guarantee a safe space for antiracist discussion, although I also understand it’s important to allow anyone to comment here, especially people who write in a considerate tone, as you do.
Now, you can choose to deny this, but you have been misled by some shoddy scholarship. I misspoke in an earlier comment that no scholars would agree with your belief in biological racism- that some innate inferiority explains and justifies racial inequality and disparate treatment. I should clarify that no credible scholars of race and society would agree. Murray & Hernnstein’s Bell Curve has been strongly refuted by social scientists by a mountain of evidence that negates their basic premises. In fact, their book did not get vetted (peer review, exposure to other scholars) before publication as is standard procedure for other books. The book was very well-received by the general (white) public – they read what they wanted to hear.
And you also mentioned Rushton. J. Philippe Rushton is a particularly bad example of a scholar. He’s still using cranium measurements, for example, to try and demonstrate intelligence differences between what he calls “whites,” “blacks” and “Orientals.” I say “still,” because (thankfully) the scientific community has moved full force away from the pseudo-science of eugenics, which was created by Europeans to justify racial oppression and never succeeded in finding fundamental biological differences between different groups of people. Although they tried hard for a century or so, measuring skulls, clavicles, feet, even brain color of all things. Now eugenics is part of a bygone era and a blight on the history of science (and maybe we still don’t have it all right, but we’ve definitely improved in our understanding), and yes there are a few scientists in different disciplines who still try to further these kinds of ideas.
Darin, I sincerely hope that you seek out a bit more information, since it’s clear that you’re interested in the topic of race. You can start with your base of knowledge and read a critique of The Bell Curve, or Rushton’s work, and see how it sits with you. (A suggestion I hope you don’t find patronizing)
Damn, Carl…using all those words just to say “Black people should shut up about racism”.
ms. booker posted that comment and never returned to the thread. There was some good discussion of her comment, and I can’t imagine what you’re referring to when you say, “Why did you guys jump all over her?” Her comment and its potential implications were discussed at length, with different posters having different interpretations and reactions to it.
So, if a teacher is white, the black kids don’t have to listen to her? Well, you just made a case for segregation? Is that what you did? You’re suggesting that only black teachers should teach black kids? With your thinking, the Brown vs Board of Education of Topeka Kansas ruling would go right out the window. Back to segregation cause NQuest thinks it’s condescending for black kids to take advice or be taught by White teachers. Fine, if you can sell that , go ahead.
You are a perfect example of wanting to destroy this country and POC before you’ll stop this total hate mongering.
ms booker wrote: “Racism is prevalent — that’s undeniable — but failing to address how we remove these young males from a trajectory and behaviors that doom them to inertia is just as criminal as institutional discrimination. You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior.”
She is simply stating that not everything black kids do, on their own cognizance will help them out of their “inertia” [her words, not mine]. And alot of things black kids do in the housing projects are killing their chances of finding financial security in this country.
If you don’t agree with my view, I won’t lose any sleep over it since I actually don’t want someone who thinks in terms of unmitigated hate to agree with Anything I say..that would make me doubt my own opinions. How am I supposed to take seriously someone who hates his own Black President? You think Obama’s a “Tom”. You think all black men are “Toms” except..who..you?
You are suggesting Black kids don’t Have to listen to White adults. Hey! If they listen to Educated Black Adults like ms. booker or President Obama (who don’t come from the stance of “hatred for all humanity” that you’re coming from) that would help them considerably! These educated blacks could guide these children to the types of behavior they need to adopt to become financially successful…It Doesn’t matter Who Does it..White or Black!
“I understand that this show-your-bootycrack trend is an offshoot from prison culture — I get that –but we have young boys emulating this behavior long before jail becomes a dangerous reality. And the behavior doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s linked to other behaviors that lead to certain outcomes that affect not only these young black males, but the communities around them. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided tolerance.”
You don’t Have to agree with me, and I don’t Have to agree with you.I’m sticking with ms. booker’s views. I think she genuinely cares about helping the black community. I think people like you are a little too wrapped up in your own egotistical rants to care about anything but getting people to accept all your opinions Without Question.
PS. I agree with smoke.a.newport that you owe MOM an apology. I will not engage in any further discussion with you unless you do so. Actually, even then I probably won’t cause I don’t like your misanthropic attitude toward the Whole Planet. Have a Great Evening! 🙂
So, if a teacher is white, the black kids don’t have to listen to her?
More Twilight Zone comments…
Well, you just made a case for segregation? Is that what you did?
So thoroughly unconvinced in the bs you’re trying to peddle, here you are begging me to make the case for something you wish you can say I said but you know I didn’t so, instead of quoting what I said and demonstrating how I “made a case for segregation” you’re reduced pleading with me… “Is that what you did?”
Back to segregation cause NQuest thinks it’s condescending for black kids to take advice or be taught by White teachers.
No, it’s back to the drawing board for mental midgets like you with the intestinal fortitude of a gnat. It’s not that hard.
List the thing “Whitey” tells Black kids to do that Black kids should do because “Whitey” says so.
You brought the subject up, surely you have more to say on it and apparently think it’s important for Black kids to do what “Whitey” says; hence, you saying…
don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us
… as if that (1) accurately depicts the position of the people you’ve called “you guys” and (2) as if Black kids should do what “Whitey” tells them.
“…instead of quoting what I said and demonstrating how I “made a case for segregation” you’re reduced [to] pleading with me, [begging me]… “Is that what you did?””
Kristen, if you weren’t talking to me, then I’ll accept that. Where we clearly disagree is over the idea that “racism studies” could ever be a field of its own, independent of sociology, biology, economics, and so on. I don’t believe it can in this sense: if the “real” science, the one that does not start from the premise that racism is the be-all, end-all of life in America, disagrees with “racism studies,” then the “real” science is almost surely right.
We’re not going to agree on this IQ question. That’s okay, because it’s not very central to my point. I’m just say that I’ve heard more refutations of The Bell Curve from people who have obviously not read it than I care to count. Even your own criticism of it suggests you don’t quite know what the book actually says.
I admit that I am not familiar with Rushton. What you say may be true. I chose that link only because it’s an article in Psychological Science — a peer-reviewed, scientific journal — that acknowledges this IQ gap we were talking about. I’m not trying to hang my hat on the author’s name.
I think if you’re honest, you’ll admit that you’re not really challenging your “racism matters a lot” premise at this point. You didn’t really read the links I sent you, for example, and I didn’t really expect you to. But it’s that one extra premise that’s really the heart of the disagreement.
I will make only one more suggestion. We seem to have gotten to the point where we’re both saying that the other has been duped — you said it explicitly, and in case I wasn’t clear, I think the same about you. (Obviously, we’ll both just have to not take offense at that idea. At least you think I was tricked, not just too stupid to understand the truth!) Here’s a point for you to file away for future consideration: I’m coming to this debate with one fewer premise than you are. You say “racism matters,” I say, “I don’t know if it matters or not.” If I’m honest, I will admit that I don’t think it matters from a macro perspective — obviously it can matter very much from a personal perspective. But in terms of our debate, I seem to be the one with fewer assumptions. In Bayesian terms, I believe I’ve chosen a less-informative prior. Is that fair?
I suppose that’s why I’m completely unimpressed by the scholarship you talk about here. I don’t think it’s real scholarship, I think it’s advocacy. I think it’s people who have an ax to grind going about grinding it with a little science-sauce to make it more convincing. I will admit here and now that this assessment is based only on the conversation I’ve had here and my experiences with similar single-issue groups elsewhere. It could turn out that the Racism Review Blog is full of top-notch science and I just missed it. But I doubt it.
PS. I agree with smoke.a.newport that you owe MOM an apology.
So. You and everybody else here can agree and say I owe MOM an apology. Matter of fact, take your own little poll and list all the people who agree with you and smoke.a.newport then see what my response is.
Obviously you feel like what you think (or what smoke.a.newport thinks) is important to me. That’s your first mistake.
Regardless, for the record, when MOM can be so dishonest as to represent herself as “a single WHITE parent” before she and I had an exchanged but then start to represent herself as “a true Native American Indian” once we began our exchange…. you, MOM and smoke.a.newport have another thing coming, talking out your anus saying I owe MOM an apology. And that’s just for the record…
This is too:
MOM, I find your words to Nquest rather condescending.
Given how MOM and none of her would-be surrogates/supporters even acknowledge that… and won’t to play blindfolds when it comes to MOM at first claiming to be “a single WHITE parent” then changing her identity and claiming she’s “a true Native American Indian” and never reconciling/explaining the two apparently contradictory statements she made… Well, like I said, ya’ll got another thing coming.
PS: Go ahead, be my guest, tell me what things Black kids should do when “Whitey” tells them.
“… and [want] to play blindfolds…”
I have a question…First I will go out and do some reading, regarding the books that were mentioned.
However, my question are certain parts of the country more racist then others?
@Nquest” There is such a thing as intellectual intelligence, and then there is such thing as emotional intelligence..I may not understand on a scholar level of thinking about what’s being discussed, but I sure know the personal attacks that you make at other commentator’s indicate the level of emotional intelligence that you have or maybe the negative feelings that you have about yourself. Please explain too me why do you feel the need to be so nasty to everybody…I am certain that face to face you would not be…This is not condescending, just observation, of how you talk and treat people in general…
However, would you someone please answer the question…Thanks, MOM
I did indeed follow the links you sent, and I know what The Bell Curve says. This all started from a discussion of documented actions carried out by people that create and exacerbate racial disparities. Your argument that IQ of all things must be the missing factor in why white vocational training program graduates experienced better outcomes was utterly preposterous (we are talking about construction workers and electricians here), but for some reason I and others entertained the notion and explained the research more and offered you some credible information on race and genetics. You dismiss an entire body of sound research on institutional processes that solidify racial inequalities because you don’t believe it to be “real” science. But, as I mentioned in my last post, you are not a good candidate to decide what is sound research and what is not. You have not studied these issues in-depth; you have located a couple scholars and bloggers who support your point of view. You are not on solid footing here. Unless something changes, I will not be engaging with you on this site anymore.
I now exit this thread and call up Joe’s comment in post #16:
I’ll be careful not to set myself up as some being too heroic, but I suspect, Kristen, that you’re not used to being challenged. Why else would you be so bothered by this? I’m not being belligerent. We obviously disagree profoundly, and I haven’t tried to hide that fact, but then neither have you.
I have to say, I’m a little disappointed. But I’m not too surprised. This website is an echo chamber. You all think the same things, you all say the same things, you all have exactly the same assumptions. And you’re apparently not used to talking to somebody (me) who does not share those assumptions. Maybe I’m just as guilty as you, but there’s an important difference. My view (i.e., not sharing the assumptions) is much more widely held. In other words, you’re going to have to find a way to deal with people who don’t start in exactly the same place you do if you ever want to convince them. Maybe you don’t care about that.
Best wishes, Darin
WOW Darin you’re a trip!!LOL
I did some research into the background of Joe, and I have to say, that I’m surprised that he would allow such nasty remarks from his scholars such as “stupid, gnat brain, twilight zone, etc” to be posted on this blog that he and Jesse created..Does not look good for the welfare of this site…
I’ve got to go, but I would think that there are some states that are more inclined to be more prejudice then other state, especially, the southern part of our country…I know this to be true, because as mentioned before, I’m going through some legal stuff because of discrimination of national origin…We don’t have any organizations out there to help us..All we can do is hire a civil rights attorney…Thanks, Mom
Wait, okay, let’s do this. Kristen, why don’t you choose a couple papers or posts you think will be particularly interesting or persuasive, I’ll read them, and then we’ll discuss.
I have been away on a camping trip since Thursday and just got reconnected to the internet. I see that I’ve been addressed in some posts with some questions and will respond once I’ve had time to catch up.