Loading ...The White Racial Frame: A Reprise
BySince several folks have asked lately about the systemic racism and white racial frame concepts, let me repeat a revised version of what I have posted a year or more ago. The North American system of racial oppression grew out of extensive European and European American exploitation of indigenous peoples and African Americans. It has long encompassed these dimensions: (1) a white racial framing of society with its racist ideology and other key elements; (2) whites’ discriminatory actions and an enduring racial hierarchy grounded in material exploitation; and (3) pervasively racist institutions maintained by discriminatory whites over centuries. White-generated oppression is far more than individual bigotry, for it has from the beginning been a material, social, and ideological reality. For four centuries North American racism has been systemic–that is, it has been manifested in all major societal institutions.
In the books Systemic Racism and The White Racial Frame I develop the concept of a white racial frame holistically and comprehensively. Since its development in the 17th century, this racial frame has been a “master frame,” a dominant framing that provides a generic meaning system for the 
racialized society that became the United States. The white racial frame provides the vantage point from which European American oppressors have long viewed North American society. In this racial framing, whites have combined racial stereotypes (the verbal-cognitive aspect), metaphors and interpretive concepts (the deeper cognitive aspect), images (the strong visual aspect), emotions (feelings), and narratives (historical myths like “manifest destiny of whites to spread across the country”), and routine inclinations to discriminatory action. This frame buttresses, and grows out of the material reality of racial oppression. The complex of racial hierarchy, material oppression, and the rationalizing white racial frame constitute what I term systemic racism. This white racial frame includes much more than the usual somewhat weak concepts most scholars and popular analysts use in the study of US racial matters, such as stereotyping, prejudice, and bigoted discrimination.
The white racial frame has long been propagated and held by most white Americans–and even, in part, accepted by many people of color. For most whites, the racial frame is deeply held, with many stored “bits,” including stereotyped knowledge, racial images and understandings, racial emotions, and racial interpretations. Not all whites use the dominant frame to the same extent, and in everyday practice there are multiple variations. By constantly using selected bits of the dominant racial frame to interpret society, by integrating new items into it, and by applying its stereotypes, images, and interpretations in many discriminatory actions, whites imbed their racialized frame deeply in their minds.
Take this key example from the early development of the dominant white racial frame. Among the self-named “whites,” who also named “black” and “Indian” Americans, were US founders Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and George Washington. They had conceptions of black Americans as very inferior to white Americans, who were seen as greatly superior in civilization. In Jefferson’s only major book, Notes on the State of Virginia, the white framing of African Americans is fiercely racist: enslaved black Americans smell funny, are natural slaves, are less intelligent, are uglier in skin color, are lazy, are oversexed, not as sophisticated in serious music, cannot learn advanced knowledge, and can never be well-integrated into white America.
This dominant racial frame was, and still is, designed by whites to rationalize an extensive system of racial oppression, with its central racial hierarchy, one with whites on top. The old racial hierarchy is rooted in coercive exploitation and resource inequality and is rationalized by the deeply held white racial frame. First centered on African Americans, and to some extent Native Americans, the white racial framing placed later groups of color–such as Chinese Americans after the 1850s and Mexican Americans after the 1840s–well down the already dominant racial hierarchy. Whites were central from the beginning to creating the North American system of racial oppression and its dominant racist frame, including all key words (“white,” “black,” and almost all racist epithets) and interpretations in that frame. Today, as in the past, the white racial frame is not just in the United States, but is fundamentally constitutive of it.
In our book, Two Faced Racism Leslie Picca and I give many examples of the contemporary white racial frame in daily operation. We collected journals from 626 white students at 28 colleges and universities in various regions. They were asked to record (for, on average, about 6-9 weeks) observations of everyday events in their lives that revealed racial issues, images, and understandings. In these relatively brief diaries these white students gave us got more than 7,500 accounts of blatantly or obviously racist commentary and actions by white friends, acquaintances, relatives, and strangers, much of it in backstage areas. In addition, about 300 students of color at these same colleges gave us another 4000 accounts of clearly racist events that happened to them and their friends or relatives.
Their everyday accounts offer many insights into how the white racial frame works today. Here, for example, is one of thousands of extended racial events from the diaries, this one about an evening party of six white students at a midwestern college. Trevor, a white student, reports on a typical evening gathering:
When any two of us are together, no racial comments or jokes are ever made. However, with the full group membership present, anti-Semitic jokes abound, as do racial slurs and vastly derogatory statements. . . . Various jokes concerning stereotypes . . . were also swapped around the gaming table, everything from “How many Hebes fit in a VW beetle?” to “Why did the Jews wander the desert for forty years?” In each case, the punch lines were offensive, even though I’m not Jewish. The answers were “One million (in the ashtray) and four (in the seats)” and “because someone dropped a quarter,” respectively. These jokes degraded into a rendition of the song “Yellow,” which was re-done to represent the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. It contained lines about the shadows of the people being flash burned into the walls (“and it was all yellow” as the chorus goes in the song).
There is nothing subtle about these racist performances. Trevor continues with yet more performances:
A member of the group also decided that he has the perfect idea for a Hallmark card. On the cover it would have a few kittens in a basket with ribbons and lace. On the inside it would simply say “You’re a nigger.” I found that incredibly offensive. Supposedly, when questioned about it, the idea of the card was to make it as offensive as humanly possible in order to make the maximal juxtaposition between warm- and ice- hearted. After a brief conversation about the cards which dealt with just how wrong they were, a small kitten was drawn on a piece of paper and handed to me with a simple, three-word message on the back. . . . Of course, no group is particularly safe from the group’s scathing wit, and the people of Mexico were next to bear the brunt of the jokes. A comment was made about Mexicans driving low-riding cars so they can drive and pick lettuce at the same time. Comments were made about the influx of illegal aliens from Mexico and how fast they produce offspring.
All white male participants here are well educated. Notice the many aspects of the white racial frame, with its subframes negatively targeting an array of groups of color, as well as Jewish Americans (apparently seen as not quite “white”). Notice the great “fun” these educated whites are having as part of this recurring social gathering. Note too the different roles played by whites in this one racialized evening. There are the protagonists performing assertively for an all-white audience. Some appear also as cheerleading assistants, with the recording student apparently acting as a passive bystander or perhaps a mild dissenter. No one, however, openly remonstrates with the active protagonists. Four types of white actions in one room.
The contemporary white racial frame as revealed in such everyday performances has great implications for most nooks and crannies of society.
Another key idea I suggest in the WRF book is that of resistance and counter-framing. Counter-frames are grounded in counter-system thinking and have been important for groups of color to survive and resist oppression over many generations. Certain leaders and thinkers in racially oppressed groups, such as W. E. B. Du Bois and Frantz Fanon, have developed articulated counter-frames, but so do ordinary people, the “organic intellectuals” in these oppressed groups. In these resistance/anti-racism counter-frames whites are defined as problematical, and ideas and strategies on how to deal with whites and white institutions are developed. Among other things, a developed counter-frame includes understandings of how discrimination and racial hostility work, examples of dealing with discriminatory whites from family and friends, and teachings about safety and various passive and active strategies of resistance to a variety of white discriminators.
@ jwbe:
I was just thinking..the truth is this website Means Much More to You than it does to me. Re-reading your comments..I get the impression my presence really upsets you. I mean I’ve enjoyed myself here for a week, but it’s not like it’s the end of the world for me if I don’t post anything..or even read anything on here again.
You guys really are on a mission, in your own minds. Obviously this place is some sort of a “sacred forum” for you to express your feelings. And apparently white people whose views even differ partially from yours, seem to upset the “delicate balance” you guys seem to think you have going.
I really don’t want to upset this balance cause..like I said..this site means way more to you than it could ever mean to me. So I won’t be posting anymore stuff on here anymore.
Plus, despite how I sound..I actually have done some reflection on some stuff you guys espouse. You’re a little too militant for my taste. I mean I sense Everything is a Reflection of White Racism with you..which is OK..I just don’t see things this way. I mean if I buy a white T-shirt at K-mart’s instead of a black one..I think you guys would consider that choice..White Racism.
@Mom:
Good Luck and I hope you learn alot of cool stuff here. I’ve enjoyed talking to you.
@ No1KState:
You’re a toughie..I’ll give you that..but I think you have a good heart. Keep on “saving the world”..cause if anybody can do it, you can.
@ Joe, Jessie and Rosalind:
Admire the work you do here. And if it were up to me, Joe, I’d have given you the Pulitzer.
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Thank you for that explaination..I have to tell you that I already knew most of it, but I wonder, about “theroies”. I’m more of a FACT person. That’s why I took the time and researched the FACTS about what was being discussed. Anybody and arugue about theories, but they cant’s agrue about facts. When I first ventured onto this site I didn’t understand period. I do believe that’s maybe why some of the people just were defending the FACTS about racism, but I keep telling everybody to take a Social Economics Class.. However, after a while, I just started asking some of the “nicer” more level headed people questions because I didn’t understand why I had to keep defending myself, or why I was getting the backlash, until I started taking a harder look at this site. It got out of control and I said some things to.. However, a lot of white people that come onto this site are brutal and then leave, and I mean just really nasty. However, I was surprised they left their comments up on the internet, and deleted my rebuttal because my rebuttal was not as nasty as the others.. Anyway, I was thinking about the many different cultures around the world. I’ll get back to you about how many people, but I do believe there are approx. 7,000 different language spoken. I believe every culture should be proud of where they came from because that is their roots, their ancestry, or their tribe. I believe we all originated from a tribe and that includes all races. However, in America, we don’t think like that we think ethnic groups. I believe, every ethnic group wants to feel proud of who they are, regardless, of what group they belong to. This is their “God given right” as human beings. However,at this time the percentage of “whites” are higher, but that is supposed to change by the year of 2050. I dont know if it’s because whites are going to be leaving the US, or because we are going to become an extinct race. I do know that a lot of Americans are leaving the US right now because they don’t like the” politics” that is going on in this country. They are finding other countries to live in because it’s just plain hard to live here, and that has nothing to do with races. It has to do with corruption of “white collar” America.
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Thank you for the education, regarding, the FACTS about racism…I have to say, I’ve learned alot in one week then most people learn in a life time…
I would suggest that maybe if you would just state the FACTS a little clearer to most people that visit this site that they would proably keep an open mind about what is being discussed…I also believe that there should not be any personal nasty remarks made to other people who come here seeking knowledge about what is being discussed…
I will tell my friends and some of my family members who by the way are “BLACK” about this site and what I’ve learned..
My suggestion to all of the negative energy that is being wasted. Take a moment of silence each day, burn some sage incense, and do some reflection on how you treat other human beings…Never allow your mind to except negative words, thoughts, or actions from another person. If feeds your ego, which then reinforces the negative feelings that you feel about yourself..Experiment: The next time someone says something you don’t like, do not react, do nothing, do not allow what is being said to enter your mind…It works!!!Sometimes people tend to say stupid things without thinking, but you are only responsible for how you feel and think..
With love, light, peace, and hope MOM
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@smoke
this is what is stated on this site:
We also provide substantive research and analysis on local, national, and global resistance to racial and ethnic oppression, including the many types of antiracist activism.
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and on this post:
examples of dealing with discriminatory whites from family and friends, and teachings about safety and various passive and active strategies of resistance to a variety of white discriminators.
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Of course, readers come here for different reasons. But I don’t read a lot about actual anti-racist strategies here, strategies that work or not and why. What ways are effective, what can white people actually do in real life, starting with family and friends where every white who challenges racism probably also knows how difficult this can be, workplace/school, institutions etc.
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also it would be interesting to have discussions about white women and anti-racism, I am white female and in every organization I joined so far not only racism was a problem but also sexism, white males on the top, happily discriminating. I am tired of that. I am tired of white male ‘experts’ who fill every place of social life and declare it their own.
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I have no problem with people who actually want to learn but also have the respect to acknowledge that they have only limited knowledge and therefore they are humble enough to read here, and to ask questions if necessary, but not trying to impose their non-knowledge on all others.
I also don’t understand why people who do not agree feel the need to post here and try to disrupt. Go for example atheists in a Church, shouting ‘I don’t agree with you’ and starting debates with the believers there? Or in general, when average people join clubs/organizations etc, do they deliberately join where they disagree only to express their ‘opinion’?
But when it comes to anti-racism and internet it is very common that those who have a ‘different’ view feel free to interupt and get too much room to do so, and I don’t understand why this can happen here? Why is it that those members who agree with the content of this page have to face insults etc.?
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This website is monitored by The Distinguished Joe Feagin and Jessie >Daniels. With lots of help from Rosalind Chou. All published authors..considered authorities by any measure on Racism and Its Repercussions. Joe, alone, is a Pulitzer Prize Nominee! I mean if the guy gets the Nobel Prize I wouldn’t be surprised. Pretty heady company, wouldn’t you say?
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yep and when even these people are not able/willing to create spaces free of racism, how disappointing is that? For me it is, I have to say, but perhaps I really joined this site with wrong expectations.
And because I feel like the troublemaker here it’s probably me who should leave this blog and also the entire American internet, I don’t know.
I have learned alot on American internet but its perhaps time to go. This is how it feels at the moment
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@ Darin Johnson -
I think the book “The Race Myth” by Joseph Graves, Jr. presents a lot of credible evidence that contradicts your notion and perception of biological races.
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It’s important to bear in mind the distinction between “superior/inferior,” which carries a moral connotation, and “different,” which does not.
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I hope that those of you who insist that there are no differences other than the most obvious physical ones between races do not rely on that as a justification for believing that racism is morally wrong. Whether there are differences is an empirical question and frankly it has been answered in the affirmative, whether you know it or not. There are many, many statistical correlations between behavior, physiology, and personality on one hand and race on the other. (I believe, although I’m not positive, that it is generally possible to identify race probabilistically simply by looking at genes.)
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Race has been described, by Steven Pinker among others, as an extended, highly inbred family. Since you obviously share more genes with your brother than with a stranger, it stands to reason you’ll share more genes with someone from your race than someone from another race. How is that not obvious? Based on that, to believe all races are identical, you have to believe that all people are identical. Well, I’ve got news for you — they’re not. It might be nice to hold hands and buy the world a Coke and talk about that great day, but it ain’t today.
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To borrow some language from those White guys you all disdain so much, “all men are created equal” because of the unalienable rights endowed by their Creator — in other words, equality is a moral question, not a technical one. It’s impossible to look at Thomas Sowell, who is an accomplished, educated, intelligent man, and say he’s equal in a technical sense to some wretched slob who just got his third strike stealing cars to pay for his meth habit. The equality on display here is their moral equality due to their humanity. And that’s about it.
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So what’s the point? Well, technical equality matters when you talking about outcomes — we don’t expect different people to have the same outcome. Moral equality matters when we’re talking about process — we differentiate based on what people have actually done, not what group they belong to.
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Mom, there’s a common misunderstanding of evolution. As a shorthand, people say we evolved from chimps, which raises your question, Why are there still chimps. Biologists don’t actually believe we evolved from chimps. What they believe is that we and chimps both evolved from a common ancestor which no longer exists.
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Human evolution is fascinating. I recommend “Before the Dawn,” by Nick Wade for those who are interested in the subject. He’s the science writer for the New York Times, and the book is an overview of humanity basically from the time it began to migrate from Africa to now. Apparently, all non-African races are traced back to a very small number of people (possibly as few as 150!) who crossed from Africa to the Middle East about 50,000 years ago.
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jwbe, why on earth would you think this website is a “racism-free zone”? This website exists to identify (and I would argue, to foster) racism wherever and whether it exists. This site is based on the notion that racism is everywhere and that it’s the founding principle of America.
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I have yet to get anyone to tell me whether people other than Whites can be racist (can they?), but depending on that answer there’s only two ways this site could be free of racism, by its own definitions:
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1. No Whites came here (if only Whites are racists).
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2. Nobody came here (if everybody is racist).
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I will resist the temptation to speculate about which is more likely.
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Darin,
I’m the Neurobiologist who questions your call to “control for IQ”. What Kristen meant when she said that IQ is a skills test is that your proficiency on an IQ test depends on life experience (like the amount of practice you’ve had answering the kinds of questions that tend to appear on IQ tests) and is not innate. So, taking it back to the study in question, if you controlled for IQ and found a difference, what could it mean?
Well, it could mean that the “Low IQ” group didn’t have access to the kind of education that the “High IQ” did. We already know that systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country. So in this case, you could say that the job recruiters may not have been racist, but it would only reinforce the fact that racism is pervasive, since the African American applicants were screwed by racism years before they got to the interiew.
The core of your objection really seems to be that you don’t believe that the experimenter’s assessment was accurate. Fair enough. This is a subjective field and there’s no way to know “the truth” about the accuracy of the experimenter.
But what about the “resume” experiment in which identical resumes were sent to employers, the only difference being that the names of applicants were traditionally African American in one case and White in the other. The “White” resumes got far more callbacks. There are no uncontrolled variables in this experiment. The employers are using the perceived color of the applicants as a proxy for some other assumed quality. That’s racism.
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Darin,
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You said,
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It does seem reasonable, doesn’t it? But it’s not true. The reason is that the mental categories we use when we assign a person to a race in our minds depends on only a few genes having to do with superficial appearance, when there is a whole ocean of genes that we do not see that collectively determine genetic similarity. As a result, there is MUCH less correlation between what we think of as race and our genetic heritage than nearly everyone assumes. For example, there was a funny story on NPR recently about a guy who had assumed his entire life that his heritage was African, because he “looked black”. But when he hired a gene analysis service to analyze his ancestry, there was not a drop of Africa in him.
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Hi jwbe,
I understand how you feel about the discussions that happen often on this website. Many people who have very little understanding of racism (and I wonder what percentage of people/Americans in general have even heard the term antiracism…) come here to debate, and they always find ready opponents.
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I share your disappointment at how the conversation gets co-opted by those who dismiss the antiracism discourse altogether, or those who demand we explain or justify our shared understanding (i.e., “White racism? Are you saying only white people can be racist! That’s racist! You’re the racist ones!”). I guess for me, though, it feels more like frustration than disappointment. I want to be open to others and assist them in gaining more knowledge if that’s what they are ready for (this is the optimistic, patient teacher in me), but it gets very exhausting exchanging with newcomers who have little, or bad, information and who want to debate as if we’re all on equal ground here. I have learned that race is one of those topics on which everyone feels like an expert, even if they’re up against a scholar of race. Sometimes I bemoan, Do botanists have to deal with this? Random people telling them, “You don’t know anything about plants, let ME tell you about plants.”
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I’m glad you’re raising this issue. There are certainly some very good discussions that happen here, but it is worth thinking about whether we want to ask the site administrators to designate an explicitly antiracist space somewhere on this website. I wonder what the options are, but it seems to me that asking for more stringent monitoring is going to lay a lot more work on someone’s shoulders, and as far as I can tell, Joe and Jessie are already committing a huge amount of time and effort.
.Let’s think about the options!
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Kristen, I think that’s a disappointing post. Really patronizing. If you think the “science” that goes on here is equivalent to botany you’re just wrong. But you don’t really think that, do you? Any peer-reviewed journals of racism studies? (By the way, the proper comparison is physicists, you’re supposed to ask whether Steven Hawking ever has this problem.) If you don’t like debating with me, stop. I hope you don’t stop, of course.
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Nick Bentley, I don’t know you. You say you’re a neurobiologist, so I’ll assume that’s true. What that means is that you’re smart and that you’ve had a decent education. It doesn’t mean you know anything about this topic, so I’m not automatically going to defer to you. Fair enough? I don’t say that to be rude, but to explain why I’m not just shutting up at your say-so.
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You can be sure that if IQ test and the black-white gap could be explained away by education or diet or language or culture or any other one of a million factors, it would have been by now. This result has probably caused more heartburn in sociology than anything else — especially for the politically correct sort who tend to practice in this field. They bend over backwards to make it go away.
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I mean, be honest, don’t you think if the gap could be explained by something as simple as education some Harvard sociobiologist would have done the work? He’d be a hero! And remember, this is a full standard deviation or more, not some minor different that has to be teased out. How about looking at the references I provided, or providing some of your own. Am I supposed to be convinced just by your word? No, I suppose not. But the choir will be relieved to hear that you disagree — their dogma is safe.
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My objection is NOT that the experimenter’s assessment was incorrect. My objection is that it is INCOMPLETE and her conclusion is not supported by her analysis. You next statement, that there’s no “truth” anyway, is so inane I wonder whether you’re even being honest about your own background. No offense, but there either is or is not a meaningful thing called “g,” and there either is or is not a significant difference among races when it comes to that, and that difference either does or does not explain why White students got more jobs. It may not be easy to figure these things out, but the experimenter in this case didn’t even bother with that question — she skipped right to the conclusion. That’s bad science.
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I’m not at all aware that “systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country.” That’s question-begging. You’ve still got exactly the same chicken-and-egg problem you had before. Do you see?
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As for your second post, if you truly believe that the genetic makeup of a third-generation White guy with four Scandinavian grandmothers is not (on average) closer to a random Swede than it is to a Black guy in Alabama whose ancestors were slaves — let alone one who’s still in Western Africa — then I guess I won’t try to convince you otherwise. Oh, yes I will… http://www.goodrumj.com/Edwards.pdf
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I know about the callbacks study. I think the Freakonomics guy talked about it, unless I’m mistaken. What do you want me to say? The author of Kristen’s study explained why this would happen (i.e., the correlating characteristics). I won’t go through it again, since it’s completely superseded by the discussion above.
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I don’t know, maybe we’ve reached the point where we’re just going to go in a big circle. You guys asked for my sources, I gave them to you. You made no effort to refute them or even comment on them. This has been a one-way thing. You ask, I answer. I ask, nothing. You demand, I provide. I request, nothing. What would an impartial judge who had no stake in the discussion think?
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Let’s try to bring this around to what I believe is the point. The point is not to talk about IQ and gaps and all that other stuff. My point is to get you guys to consider that there might be some other explanations for variations in outcome besides the racism of White people toward everyone else. You seem to assume the worst about White people and America, and although it may not be nice to face up to the idea that races vary in unfair ways, the psychic rewards might be worth it. You can quite obsessing about the perceived wrongs being done you and live you life.
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I say that in all earnestness, without any malign intent. Please take it that way.
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>I have learned that race is one of those topics on which everyone feels like an expert, even if they’re up against a scholar of race. Sometimes I bemoan, Do botanists have to deal with this? Random people telling them, “You don’t know anything about plants, let ME tell you about plants.”
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the ‘experts’ pop up when it comes to social issues and stereotypes serve to discrimate against a certain group. Think about the West stereotyping Islam for example and read in comment sections, the West defines what Islam allegedly is and indirectly (and sometimes directly) consider Christianity as the civilized religion vs. Islam the uncivilized religion which has to be civilized [moderate Islam or in Europe also called 'Euroislam'], with the underlying assumption that Islam itself is backward and only with ‘Europeanizing’ it it becomes ‘progressive’]
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Darin, you could have had at least of had half of another book read by now—like the Systemic Racism, which would provide a contextual answer on why it is that “systemic racism underlies differing access to education in this country.” And if you disagree with the theory, then you can bring in some serious dialogue to these threads.
One thing I do have to agree with that you said: “Racism is not a science.” I don’t know where that was ever claimed. But sociology is in the academic cluster of social sciences. By and large both the social and physical sciences operate on theories and one of the primary differences between the the two is how measurements take place and data is analyzed—which is why we always have standard error and scientists typically do not. Both the physical sciences, such as biology, and social sciences, such as, psychology and sociology have been racist in the past, which has resulted in a practice called eugenics. I would argue that still takes place today—just in different forms. Through both quantitative and qualitative analyses, many studies have shown that racism still plagues this society.
I personally happen to be a fan of Emile Durkheim, whom drew off of some of Darwin’s Origins work and completely demolished eugenic and Social Darwinism folks like Herbert Spencer. Both Durkheim and Darwin (at least in Origins) argued that there is more variation within groups than between. Both the physical and social sciences have supported those early claims. And your argument on siblings is pretty funny too as when my uncle was looking for a stem cell match due to his cancer, not one of his 4 siblings matched. An unknown donor from who knows where was a match.
You and even smoke-a-newport above seem to have a sincere fascination with racism and the field of sociology. My question is, if you’re so determined to challenge the work and claims made at this site, like other scholars, why don’t you read some books and bring some critiques? Then your questions would not be like the one noted in the beginning of this comment because you would already have an answer. Instead, you could either offer an alternative theory or suggest how that theory could be improved. What’s so hard about that? If it’s the case that you are financially strained and too embarrassed to admit that is the reason you haven’t begun reading, send a mailing address to either Joe or Jessie and I will get a copy of Racist America to them to send to you. That would also help you with your question on if you purchased a white T-shirt over a black one, would that equate to white racism.
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Sorry, smoke-a-newport asked the white T-shirt question. But it would still provide an answer to questions such as those.
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@Darin Johnson –
Genetic differences within races is as great, if not greater, than across races. Again, see “The Race Myth”.
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For example, sickle cell anemia is often considered a disease that only afflicts Afr-Am. or those of African descent. However, Kenyans (who by all accounts will fit into the racial category “black”) and those with Kenyan heritage don’t get sickle cell anemia–Kenya is very mountainous with very few mosquitoes which plays a role in various disease risks. However, Syrians (who would not fit into the racial category “black”) actually are susceptible to sickle cell anemia.
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These “physical”, racial, genetic differences you describe are really a function of geography and human migratory patterns, not inherent racial characteristics.
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Darin Johnson said: “My point is to get you guys to consider that there might be some other explanations for variations in outcome besides the racism of White people toward everyone else.”
Darin here is speaking about IQ. BecauseI like the way he worded this, I’m going to take the Liberty Of Changing His Premise A Moment to state my case. I actually don’t believe that blacks differ genetically on an intellectual leval from whites. The “variations in outcome” I’d like to refer to are the financial gains whites make over and above blacks. This is important because financial gains translate into an over-all better life style, agreed? Better health care, nice home, comfortable car, choice of nutritious food, nice clothes, access to many things that contribute to better education for children:books, computers, vacations wherein children can see historical sites etc. Agreed?
Well, many educated black people who have left posts on this site have stated the case that it’s necessary to blend in to the status quo to achieve these material advantages..and these advantages are considerable..especially in America! If it were me, I’d pull my pants up around my waist instead of wearing them around my knees, I’d study hard in Public Schools Available to All, I’d try to speak the English the teachers in these systems teach instead of shouting “No! That’s racist to try and get me to change my English”.
A BLACK woman had an answer to the blacks on this cite regarding doing a disservice to black children in encouraging them to “defy conforming to the status quo”, [as you would define it] because you are crippling them in your zeal. You are teaching them Any Conformity to the Status Quo is Giving In. I guess it doesn’t matter that your words will doom these kids forever. Your words will Positively Ensure they Stay in the housing projects. Do you really care about these kids? Do you? Here’s the post:
ms booker Says:
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:59 pm
“I was a black studies major. I am black. Grew up in a Midwestern, black church-surrounded community and now live, unchurched, in Washington, D.C. While the juxtaposition of the poster’s visual messages leaves much to be desired, I find the hand-wringing here a little much. Racism is prevalent — that’s undeniable — but failing to address how we remove these young males from a trajectory and behaviors that doom them to inertia is just as criminal as institutional discrimination. You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided “tolerance.” Better outcomes can be achieved through a combination of personal responsibility within their families, better education, and *well-managed* state or nonprofit assistance, as well as volunteers. I understand that this show-your-bootycrack trend is an offshoot from prison culture — I get that –but we have young boys emulating this behavior long before jail becomes a dangerous reality. And the behavior doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s linked to other behaviors that lead to certain outcomes that affect not only these young black males, but the communities around them.
Now, in a perfect world, we would all be tolerant of more “casual” styles of dress in the workplace, or on the street. But this ain’t merely casual. More, at the end of the day, I don’t care if John White Boy enters a job interview in flip flops, a tee-shirt, and a baseball cap. Oh, the injustice! If you know the cards are stacked in some way — and black folks have known it for 400 years — then the objective is to take the damn cards from the opponent. It’s called dominance strategy, and though black people in this country have often had a much harder time applying it to their circumstances than ethnic whites who don’t share our slavery-based history, many have achieved it. Along the way, some of these people have been called “Tom” and ” Sellout” while quietly financing the lives and educations of many others.”
Naturally you jumped all over her “lack of logic” which is Absolutely Astounding to Me! I have my doubts whether you really care about the young black children you proclaim to defend. I see such a zealous, blind hatred for ‘anything that smells white’ that you’d rather ‘throw the baby out with the bath water’ than even concede 2 millimeters.
You sit there with Your Educations already under your belt, with loads of time to type on these blogs, loads of time to read study after study…while the poor black children are struggling Not Against Whitey but against, at this point, Your Misguided Idealogy that tells them “Hey..c’mere kid..don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us..be black and be proud..education/schmeducation!..who gives a damn..wear your pants on your head if that’s what you want!..Bill Cosby and President Obama want you to sell out..but I don’t! If you do, you’re a rat to Our Cause! Get it?’ Children are Not Lab Rats. Let me say this again: Children are Not Lab Rats.
And this while you continue typing..all your “American” educations and masters degrees in tact. And I assume your refrigerators are Full of Food also.
I say this not with disrespect but with conviction. Thanks.
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Also Darin and smoke-a-newport (if you’re still around)—it is wise to read up on literature you perceive to be a direct threat to you or your group and not run from it. If you perceive Joe’s work, and the work of others as threatening to you or your group, you may want to know what’s being said. You have the luxury and privilege of being able to do so, where as many who have been targeted in the past for things such as, oh I don’t know, genocide, eugenics, slavery, etc., did not. And it’s not like this work is all secret and a covert conspiracy to bring harm to white people (it is directed at challenging the systems of oppressions that are harmful for all people)…why don’t you learn what’s being said?
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To Darin @ #112–some peer reviewed journals of racism studies include: Ethnic and Racial Studies (which incidentally is one of the top ranked sociology journals); Race and Class; Race, Gender, and Class; Phylon; and the DuBois Review. Additionally, several top ranked peer reviewed sociology journals also publish research which is reflected in many of the arguments mentioned on this blog (see for instance American Sociological Review; Social Problems; Social Forces; and Annual Review of Sociology). You may not respect it, but sociology (and the racial/ethnic minorities/racism subfield within it) is a rigorous field of study that is on par with any other science. Because people often think their commonsense, everyday observations serve them well enough, it’s easy to dismiss the research in this area (particularly when it doesn’t conform to what people *think* they know). But racism studies, at least in sociology, follow strict methodological and theoretical protocols that allow researchers to offer well-informed, scientific analyses of how society works and the role of race/racism therein.
To your IQ questions, are you familiar with Claude Steele’s work? He’s a Stanford psychologist who has done extensive research on the concept of stereotype threat. Generally, Steele’s work shows that when people are under the impression that members of their group do not do well on tests, their performance on said tests suffers. If I remember correctly, Steele found variations in performance in various groups (whites males, white women, blacks, Asian Americans) when test-takers were told that people in their groups underperformed on a given test. Many contemporary researchers suggest that this, coupled with class, actually does do a lot to explain away racial differences in testing.
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To Carl @117: I resent your implication that attention to and focus on structural racism is done at the expense of any real concern for black children (or adults). You don’t know the people who post or write on this blog. You don’t know what they do in their personal lives. Do you know that people affiliated with this blog have gotten death threats for speaking out about the impact racism has on black youth and children, an impact they only have a sense of because they take the time to *listen* to the very black youth you think they are ignoring? Do you know that people on this blog volunteer with an organization that services poor women and children (who are mostly black due to the nonprofit nature of the organization and its location in an inner city), in an effort to address the hard consequences of racism that we write about? Do you know that people who write this blog have had family sever ties with them because these blog writers cared about, and spoke publicly about, racial problems like police violence and racism in media? Do you know that the work done by some of the scholars who post here has been invaluable for students of color, who read these studies and are relieved–sometimes to the point of tears–to see evidence of things they’ve only suspected and have been taught to believe are figments of their imagination?
You don’t know us as anything but screen names. You don’t know what we do when we’re not on this blog. So quit with your sanctimonious assumptions when you have NO IDEA of the sacrifices–personal and professional–that people on this blog make in their efforts to improve life chances for black children–and for ALL children.
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To Adia:
I hear what you are saying. I think that’s admirable that you volunteer in the housing projects. You’re right to point this out to me. I was not aware of this.
But why did you jump all over ms. booker’s statements regarding black children blending in to achieve financial success in America? What was wrong with her concern [and she sounded genuinely concerned] about this hand-wringing at the expense of black children?
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It just appears to me that you guys put philosphy above practical survival mechanisms. ms booker’s stance is the exact opposite. She is saying: do what you have to do and take the cards from your opponent if the cards are stacked against you. It’s called dominance strategy. She was a black studies major in college. Surely she has credibility in this area. Why did you guys jump all over her?
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Cause we weren’t saying that black children shouldn’t use dominance strategy, we were saying they shouldn’t have to.
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ms. booker, a Black woman who majored in black studied [see #117] stated, “You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided ‘tolerance.’ ”
What in the world is wrong with this approach?
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Your Misguided Idealogy that tells them “Hey..c’mere kid..don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us..be black and be proud..education/schmeducation!..who gives a damn..wear your pants on your head if that’s what you want!..Bill Cosby and President Obama want you to sell out..but I don’t! If you do, you’re a rat to Our Cause! Get it?’
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This is both ridiculously dishonest and patently racist. It’s the idea that Black people, even Black children, are too dumb to know or do what’s in their best interest. Even worse, it says that Black people/Black children don’t have the capacity to think on their own because it assumes that the only way Black people/children come to believe what they do is by somebody telling them what to think. Somehow, American society and history itself, has nothing to do with the views Black people/children have. You, see according to CarlF, Black people/children have to be brainwashed by somebody to think what they do — i.e. Black people/children don’t have the mental/intellectual capacity to make observations about the world they live in and form their ideas, even ideologies, without the help of someone else.
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This is also evidence of how people like CarlF (and even Ms. Booker) don’t have any real point or at least none that deal directly with any points the people he calls “you guys” have actually made. Unable to effectively dispute/debate the people he calls “you guys” on substantive points, CarlF would rather erect ridiculous strawmen arguments that come nowhere close to anything that’s been said here.
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don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us
… is simply ridiculous. First, who the hell is “Whitey?” Second, what does “hate” have to do with it?
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These child-like terms reflects on CarlF’s inability to engage in an adult level conversation/debate. But let’s see, CarlF, what’s your alternative?
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List the thing “Whitey” tells Black kids to do that Black kids should do because “Whitey” says so. I guess that’s what this is all about after all. “Whitey” should get to tell Black people/kids what to do and Black people/kids should listen to “Whitey” because “Whitey” knows best or whatever this bs is about…
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Hello Darin,
I suppose that my post (#111), which was not directed at you by the way, sounded patronizing to you because it alluded to the basic fact that you are not a scholar of race and other people here are. Now, this doesn’t necessarily mean that someone like you has nothing valuable to add to the discussion (indeed, you have not been ignored here, and you have not been shouted down, and several of us have tried to explain some research findings to you).
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But it does mean that many of the other posters here have done a lot of studying on these topics and have read the few things you have read and much more, written papers and books, debated with others, listened to umpteen lectures, given lectures, joined community groups, had discussion upon discussion, learned methods of scholarly criticism, research, and analysis, etc. This is the work that people have done. I have done this work for a few years and have gained a solid base of knowledge; I have a lifetime ahead of me to keep learning. There is always something to learn, some deeper way of understanding things.
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Again, it’s not to say that race-racism scholars are the only ones who should get to talk about these issues, but it does mean that some of these people used to be where you are in terms of knowledge. Some of us may try to identify where you are at in terms of understanding and make suggestions to you – books, an article, a documentary. We are open to hearing what you have to say, but we also appreciate being able to have a discussion where everyone is on pretty much the same page as far as understanding systemic racism. I empathized with jwbe’s lament that a site like racism review can’t guarantee a safe space for antiracist discussion, although I also understand it’s important to allow anyone to comment here, especially people who write in a considerate tone, as you do.
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Now, you can choose to deny this, but you have been misled by some shoddy scholarship. I misspoke in an earlier comment that no scholars would agree with your belief in biological racism- that some innate inferiority explains and justifies racial inequality and disparate treatment. I should clarify that no credible scholars of race and society would agree. Murray & Hernnstein’s Bell Curve has been strongly refuted by social scientists by a mountain of evidence that negates their basic premises. In fact, their book did not get vetted (peer review, exposure to other scholars) before publication as is standard procedure for other books. The book was very well-received by the general (white) public – they read what they wanted to hear.
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And you also mentioned Rushton. J. Philippe Rushton is a particularly bad example of a scholar. He’s still using cranium measurements, for example, to try and demonstrate intelligence differences between what he calls “whites,” “blacks” and “Orientals.” I say “still,” because (thankfully) the scientific community has moved full force away from the pseudo-science of eugenics, which was created by Europeans to justify racial oppression and never succeeded in finding fundamental biological differences between different groups of people. Although they tried hard for a century or so, measuring skulls, clavicles, feet, even brain color of all things. Now eugenics is part of a bygone era and a blight on the history of science (and maybe we still don’t have it all right, but we’ve definitely improved in our understanding), and yes there are a few scientists in different disciplines who still try to further these kinds of ideas.
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Darin, I sincerely hope that you seek out a bit more information, since it’s clear that you’re interested in the topic of race. You can start with your base of knowledge and read a critique of The Bell Curve, or Rushton’s work, and see how it sits with you. (A suggestion I hope you don’t find patronizing)
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Damn, Carl…using all those words just to say “Black people should shut up about racism”.
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CarlF,
ms. booker posted that comment and never returned to the thread. There was some good discussion of her comment, and I can’t imagine what you’re referring to when you say, “Why did you guys jump all over her?” Her comment and its potential implications were discussed at length, with different posters having different interpretations and reactions to it.
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To NQuest:
So, if a teacher is white, the black kids don’t have to listen to her? Well, you just made a case for segregation? Is that what you did? You’re suggesting that only black teachers should teach black kids? With your thinking, the Brown vs Board of Education of Topeka Kansas ruling would go right out the window. Back to segregation cause NQuest thinks it’s condescending for black kids to take advice or be taught by White teachers. Fine, if you can sell that , go ahead.
You are a perfect example of wanting to destroy this country and POC before you’ll stop this total hate mongering.
ms booker wrote: “Racism is prevalent — that’s undeniable — but failing to address how we remove these young males from a trajectory and behaviors that doom them to inertia is just as criminal as institutional discrimination. You can achieve the same goals of promoting greater equality and resource access for young black males, in particular, without dismissing problematic behavior.”
She is simply stating that not everything black kids do, on their own cognizance will help them out of their “inertia” [her words, not mine]. And alot of things black kids do in the housing projects are killing their chances of finding financial security in this country.
If you don’t agree with my view, I won’t lose any sleep over it since I actually don’t want someone who thinks in terms of unmitigated hate to agree with Anything I say..that would make me doubt my own opinions. How am I supposed to take seriously someone who hates his own Black President? You think Obama’s a “Tom”. You think all black men are “Toms” except..who..you?
You are suggesting Black kids don’t Have to listen to White adults. Hey! If they listen to Educated Black Adults like ms. booker or President Obama (who don’t come from the stance of “hatred for all humanity” that you’re coming from) that would help them considerably! These educated blacks could guide these children to the types of behavior they need to adopt to become financially successful…It Doesn’t matter Who Does it..White or Black!
“I understand that this show-your-bootycrack trend is an offshoot from prison culture — I get that –but we have young boys emulating this behavior long before jail becomes a dangerous reality. And the behavior doesn’t exist in a vacuum; it’s linked to other behaviors that lead to certain outcomes that affect not only these young black males, but the communities around them. I see young males all the time in my city who look like this, and often show no respect for anyone, young or old. They need guidance, love, and discipline, not apologies and misguided tolerance.”
You don’t Have to agree with me, and I don’t Have to agree with you.I’m sticking with ms. booker’s views. I think she genuinely cares about helping the black community. I think people like you are a little too wrapped up in your own egotistical rants to care about anything but getting people to accept all your opinions Without Question.
PS. I agree with smoke.a.newport that you owe MOM an apology. I will not engage in any further discussion with you unless you do so. Actually, even then I probably won’t cause I don’t like your misanthropic attitude toward the Whole Planet. Have a Great Evening!
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So, if a teacher is white, the black kids don’t have to listen to her?
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More Twilight Zone comments…
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Well, you just made a case for segregation? Is that what you did?
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So thoroughly unconvinced in the bs you’re trying to peddle, here you are begging me to make the case for something you wish you can say I said but you know I didn’t so, instead of quoting what I said and demonstrating how I “made a case for segregation” you’re reduced pleading with me… “Is that what you did?”
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Back to segregation cause NQuest thinks it’s condescending for black kids to take advice or be taught by White teachers.
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No, it’s back to the drawing board for mental midgets like you with the intestinal fortitude of a gnat. It’s not that hard.
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List the thing “Whitey” tells Black kids to do that Black kids should do because “Whitey” says so.
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You brought the subject up, surely you have more to say on it and apparently think it’s important for Black kids to do what “Whitey” says; hence, you saying…
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don’t do Anything Whitey tells you..they all hate us
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… as if that (1) accurately depicts the position of the people you’ve called “you guys” and (2) as if Black kids should do what “Whitey” tells them.
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CORRECTION:
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“…instead of quoting what I said and demonstrating how I “made a case for segregation” you’re reduced [to] pleading with me, [begging me]… “Is that what you did?””
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Kristen, if you weren’t talking to me, then I’ll accept that. Where we clearly disagree is over the idea that “racism studies” could ever be a field of its own, independent of sociology, biology, economics, and so on. I don’t believe it can in this sense: if the “real” science, the one that does not start from the premise that racism is the be-all, end-all of life in America, disagrees with “racism studies,” then the “real” science is almost surely right.
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We’re not going to agree on this IQ question. That’s okay, because it’s not very central to my point. I’m just say that I’ve heard more refutations of The Bell Curve from people who have obviously not read it than I care to count. Even your own criticism of it suggests you don’t quite know what the book actually says.
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I admit that I am not familiar with Rushton. What you say may be true. I chose that link only because it’s an article in Psychological Science — a peer-reviewed, scientific journal — that acknowledges this IQ gap we were talking about. I’m not trying to hang my hat on the author’s name.
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I think if you’re honest, you’ll admit that you’re not really challenging your “racism matters a lot” premise at this point. You didn’t really read the links I sent you, for example, and I didn’t really expect you to. But it’s that one extra premise that’s really the heart of the disagreement.
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I will make only one more suggestion. We seem to have gotten to the point where we’re both saying that the other has been duped — you said it explicitly, and in case I wasn’t clear, I think the same about you. (Obviously, we’ll both just have to not take offense at that idea. At least you think I was tricked, not just too stupid to understand the truth!) Here’s a point for you to file away for future consideration: I’m coming to this debate with one fewer premise than you are. You say “racism matters,” I say, “I don’t know if it matters or not.” If I’m honest, I will admit that I don’t think it matters from a macro perspective — obviously it can matter very much from a personal perspective. But in terms of our debate, I seem to be the one with fewer assumptions. In Bayesian terms, I believe I’ve chosen a less-informative prior. Is that fair?
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I suppose that’s why I’m completely unimpressed by the scholarship you talk about here. I don’t think it’s real scholarship, I think it’s advocacy. I think it’s people who have an ax to grind going about grinding it with a little science-sauce to make it more convincing. I will admit here and now that this assessment is based only on the conversation I’ve had here and my experiences with similar single-issue groups elsewhere. It could turn out that the Racism Review Blog is full of top-notch science and I just missed it. But I doubt it.
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PS. I agree with smoke.a.newport that you owe MOM an apology.
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So. You and everybody else here can agree and say I owe MOM an apology. Matter of fact, take your own little poll and list all the people who agree with you and smoke.a.newport then see what my response is.
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Obviously you feel like what you think (or what smoke.a.newport thinks) is important to me. That’s your first mistake.
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Regardless, for the record, when MOM can be so dishonest as to represent herself as “a single WHITE parent” before she and I had an exchanged but then start to represent herself as “a true Native American Indian” once we began our exchange…. you, MOM and smoke.a.newport have another thing coming, talking out your anus saying I owe MOM an apology. And that’s just for the record…
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This is too:
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MOM, I find your words to Nquest rather condescending.
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Given how MOM and none of her would-be surrogates/supporters even acknowledge that… and won’t to play blindfolds when it comes to MOM at first claiming to be “a single WHITE parent” then changing her identity and claiming she’s “a true Native American Indian” and never reconciling/explaining the two apparently contradictory statements she made… Well, like I said, ya’ll got another thing coming.
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PS: Go ahead, be my guest, tell me what things Black kids should do when “Whitey” tells them.
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It’s.not.that.hard.
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CORRECTION:
“… and [want] to play blindfolds…”
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I have a question…First I will go out and do some reading, regarding the books that were mentioned.
However, my question are certain parts of the country more racist then others?
@Nquest” There is such a thing as intellectual intelligence, and then there is such thing as emotional intelligence..I may not understand on a scholar level of thinking about what’s being discussed, but I sure know the personal attacks that you make at other commentator’s indicate the level of emotional intelligence that you have or maybe the negative feelings that you have about yourself. Please explain too me why do you feel the need to be so nasty to everybody…I am certain that face to face you would not be…This is not condescending, just observation, of how you talk and treat people in general…
However, would you someone please answer the question…Thanks, MOM
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Darin,
I did indeed follow the links you sent, and I know what The Bell Curve says. This all started from a discussion of documented actions carried out by people that create and exacerbate racial disparities. Your argument that IQ of all things must be the missing factor in why white vocational training program graduates experienced better outcomes was utterly preposterous (we are talking about construction workers and electricians here), but for some reason I and others entertained the notion and explained the research more and offered you some credible information on race and genetics. You dismiss an entire body of sound research on institutional processes that solidify racial inequalities because you don’t believe it to be “real” science. But, as I mentioned in my last post, you are not a good candidate to decide what is sound research and what is not. You have not studied these issues in-depth; you have located a couple scholars and bloggers who support your point of view. You are not on solid footing here. Unless something changes, I will not be engaging with you on this site anymore.
~
I now exit this thread and call up Joe’s comment in post #16:
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Kristen, Wow.
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I’ll be careful not to set myself up as some being too heroic, but I suspect, Kristen, that you’re not used to being challenged. Why else would you be so bothered by this? I’m not being belligerent. We obviously disagree profoundly, and I haven’t tried to hide that fact, but then neither have you.
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I have to say, I’m a little disappointed. But I’m not too surprised. This website is an echo chamber. You all think the same things, you all say the same things, you all have exactly the same assumptions. And you’re apparently not used to talking to somebody (me) who does not share those assumptions. Maybe I’m just as guilty as you, but there’s an important difference. My view (i.e., not sharing the assumptions) is much more widely held. In other words, you’re going to have to find a way to deal with people who don’t start in exactly the same place you do if you ever want to convince them. Maybe you don’t care about that.
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Best wishes, Darin
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WOW Darin you’re a trip!!LOL
I did some research into the background of Joe, and I have to say, that I’m surprised that he would allow such nasty remarks from his scholars such as “stupid, gnat brain, twilight zone, etc” to be posted on this blog that he and Jesse created..Does not look good for the welfare of this site…
I’ve got to go, but I would think that there are some states that are more inclined to be more prejudice then other state, especially, the southern part of our country…I know this to be true, because as mentioned before, I’m going through some legal stuff because of discrimination of national origin…We don’t have any organizations out there to help us..All we can do is hire a civil rights attorney…Thanks, Mom
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Wait, okay, let’s do this. Kristen, why don’t you choose a couple papers or posts you think will be particularly interesting or persuasive, I’ll read them, and then we’ll discuss.
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Fair enough?
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I have been away on a camping trip since Thursday and just got reconnected to the internet. I see that I’ve been addressed in some posts with some questions and will respond once I’ve had time to catch up.
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[...] in The Race Card, in his ‘primer’ on race for Slate Ford ignores the research on systemic racism altogether. In case you missed any of the previous posts that Joe (or I) have done about this [...]
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