In this video from MSNBC (on the long side, 16:08, but worth it), Pat Buchanan ardently defends white male privilege (h/t @kellieparker). And, Rachel Maddow offers a substantial challenge to him:
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I’ve written about Pat Buchanan here before, both here (online) and in my first book, White Lies (Routledge: 1997). In that book, part of what I did was lay out the ways that extremist white supremacist discourse in movement publications was similar to mainstream political discourse about race, and I mentioned then-presidential-candidate Pat Buchanan as one of those examples. I also investigated the ways that gender and race intersected in both extremist and mainstream discourse. In the video clip above, Buchanan goes on about the “white men who built this nation” and I have to say that what came immediately to mind for me was an image from a white supremacist publication (such as Tom Metzger’s “White Aryan Resistance,” or “WAR”) that I included in that book (on pages 34-35). Here’s a bit of the passage:
“The image is of a white man, with airplances and bridges in the background, and the accompanying text reads, ‘White Men Built This Nation, White Men Are This Nation!” (emphasis in the original). the images conveys several messages. It signals a link between race, ‘whiteness’ and masculinity, specifically ‘white men,’ such that white men are the central, indeed the only actors visible. …[The illustration] presumably refers to those materially involved in ‘building’ an infrastructure, those who literally ‘built’ the bridges, airplanes, and skyscrapers featured in the background. Meanwhile the image simultaneously obliterates the labor of racial and ethnic minorities, both men and women, whose labor did, in fact, build this country.”
Once again, there is little if any distinction between the argument that Pat Buchanan is making on MSNBC and the one that extremist white supremacist publications are making. Both are interested in defending white male privilege while ignoring the talents, hard work, and accomplishments of people of color whose labor has made this country wealth, yet who are, much too often, excluded from reaping the benefits of that labor.
I love Rachel Maddow but she is usually better than this. I think she should have been prepared with a little of the voluminous research on Affirmative Action and the fact that it hasn’t ever hurt white people, despite their considerable protestations. Nixon himself supported affirmative action as a wedge strategy to divide the whit working class from minority workers, and it seems that Buchanan is looking to make that strategy the gift that keeps on giving. In fact, from that clip, it is not even clear that Buchanan knows factually what affirmative action is or what it has done. He highlights several test cases in which predominantly right wing groups were fishing for sympathetic white defendants who had supposedly been wronged by the evils of AA. Without some research it is just her batting her head against the racial common sense in this country. And, the whole “isn’t it great that we have our first Latino” argument is kind of weak.
I viewed Maddow’s challenge as substantially lacking. She allowed Buchanan to define affirmative action as discrimination against white males. She allowed Buchanan to get away with framing AA virtual hand-outs for the less than qualified and less than capable as Buchanan dominated Maddowon her own show, both in tone and time.
I would have cut his mic or otherwise demanded that he respected my show and STFU when I wanted to respond. Maddow failed to do that at one point when Buchanan was on an extend blah, blah of nonsense and purposely talked over her to shut her up.
Of course, I appreciate Maddow because, out of all the hosts/regulars on MSNBC, she’s the quickest and firmest when it comes to telling “Uncle Pat” when he has crossed the line. She just didn’t do in this show and the “Pat you’re dating yourself” line was White Liberal wimpy.
From my vantage point as an African-American, I found myself thinking with White Liberal allies/friends like this, who needs enemies. In short, Maddow’s defense of affirmative action conceded too much via her silence or avoidance of issues Buchanan was already or bound to be even more belligerent on.
And, really, to let him just say that “White Men Built This Nation” stuff and let it slide after he dodge her immediate question/response to it??? No, I’d have pulled even fake outrage or been purposely emotional showing complete and utter disgust towards him effectively ending the segment with a Olbermann like special comment monologue (complete with the drama camera shots.. lol) recounting all the racist bs Buchanan has pulled on shows with Maddow or a series of indicting rhetorical questions never meant for Buchanan to get half a word out in response.
In other news, Buchanan claimed he could understand African-Americans benefiting from AA but not Hispanics because they were never enslaved…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8khe-n5lI-4
Hi there Victor, Nquest ~ I’m decidedly mixed on Rachel Maddow. While, I should confess in the interests of full disclosure that I find her *completely* crush-worthy (perhaps TMI), the tingly feeling tends to go away when she talks about race as I’ve written about here before (http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2009/01/21/obama-inauguration-racism/). For her and for this show, I thought she did an OK job of taking on Buchanan. But, you both raise excellent points about where she failed here. I think the larger point really is why does Pat Buchanan have a big, well-paid job on MSNBC to spew this kind of crap.
i don’t quite agree with my other commenters regarding rachel maddow’s performance. i thought she gave pat buchanan just enough rope for him to hang himself- which he then did a surprising flourish. she really didn’t have to do much of anything else. further, i don’t think she can stage a keith olberman ‘special comment’ because the ingrate pat buchanon is a fellow msnbc property. it is seems abundantly clear that the powers that be at msnbc still value his contribution. i nearly couldn’t believe that msnbc would even allow this segment to air, such was the offensive message of buchanan’s diatribe.
I don’t know where to put this so I’ll place it here. The Root has got an interesting article about Obama’s speech on racism at the NAACP Conference. http://www.theroot.com/views/obama-doctrine-racism-s-real-deal-it
I would be interested if any contributors on this blog could post a new article about it.
Siss, in my quick reading of the piece from The Root, as far as the question the piece attributes to the Obama Doctrine:
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Do individuals or the inequalities into which they’re born matter most?
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The question is a non-starter. Substitute the health care crisis/reform issue and the asininity (if that’s a word) of the question is clear. Obama isn’t arguing for Americans to “raise above” the health care issues and raising costs of insurance through dent of “hard work” and familial support.
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Now, the question The Root extrapolated from Obama’s speech makes sense as a motivational speech by an avg. citizen or mere civic leader of whatever stature (note I said it makes sense but didn’t deem it non-problematic) but Obama isn’t the community organizer now. He’s the gottdamn president who, by swearing to uphold the U.S. Constitution, has a duty to eliminate any and all racism/racial discrimination to the extent it’s possible during his term of service.
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Returning back to the health care analogy… It’s amazing how people can see the ramifications for the uninsured, under-insured and all those insured who can’t afford high premiums or expensive treatments but insist on African-Americans (some, if not all) swimming up stream pretending as if their are no contra-current or debris in the water that is supposed to have an impact on them/us as swimmers.
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Obama’s doctrine is an absurd rehashing of Cosby’s much more boldly stated equation that “With all the systemic problems of racism, the solution is parenting.” And I’ll say again, for Cosby to say that, is one thing (it’s as understandable as it is problematic, IMO) but for Obama to say it, it’s altogether different because of the office he holds, not to mention the supposed power the wields to reduce/eradicate the extra-added drag-burden of racism/racial discrimination.
Excellent point, mordy: It seems abundantly clear that the powers that be at msnbc still value his contribution. Yes, yes it does.
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Siss, thanks for the link, and I agree with Nquest that your question based on that speech is a non-starter.
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Here’s relevant quote from TheRoot piece and the gist of what they’re calling the “Obama Doctrine on Race”:
“assume these white folks are gonna be racist, then figure it out anyway”
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The key point about last night’s speech that no one’s mentioned here is that this was a speech given to a predominantly (if not exclusively) black audience. And, it’s familiar territory for most black and brown folks in this country. The first part of that sentence I quoted above is “The children of black and brown strivers across generations will recognize a familiar refrain …” In other words, non-white parents have been saying this sort of thing for generations to their kids.
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The mistake here would be for white people to use PBO’s speech last night as an excuse for finger-pointing at black folks. The task for whites to do is to work on the “white folks will be racist” part of that, along with dismantling structural inequality.
A “rich white” male blogger at dailykos has this strong critique of the classism that is also part of Buchanan’s frame: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/16/754343/-Buchanan-is-right.This-white-man-is-full-of-resentment.
He argues that Buchanan is carrying water only for wealthy white men.
White men did build the United States. There is just no way around that reality.
I would like for someone to tell me where this black and/or minority utopia is in America where blacks and/or other minorities hold all or the majority of positions of power and get preferential treatment in every aspect of their lives from education to employment to health care to housing.
I don’t understand how white males can claim “reverse discrimination” when they cannot point to any evidence of minorities being over represented in this country with respect to demographics in any area of American culture other than athletics or our penal system.
As far as white men building the United States, I’ve always wished there was an effective way to appraise what this country would be like if we could magically erase any contributions made by women and minorities to test this fallacious claim.
post 9, James Miller, brainwashed by Tom Metzger and Jared Taylor and others. Posting a link to his blog which, as an example of online hate-speech, would violate German laws.
Something for Buchanan and all of his fundamentalist brethren:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI
As a black woman, I am coming from the roll of the oppressed. However, I don’t see anything wrong with Obama saying that parenting is important within the black community.
I mean..I know..I know..it Sounds a little condescending. And if we’re going to be extremist we could make the claim that “Duh! Everybody knows parenting is an important cornerstone..but why mention it to US already?” Like the implication is that we Need this advice the most.
The fact is he was speaking to a minority of blacks..ones on welfare etc who have multiple father-absent family dynamics. As if there were’t whites in the same predicament. All that being said, I think we’re being overly critical regarding Image if we take Obama to task. Yeah..yeah..the rest of America heard it and that might hurt our image..but father-less black children have Already hurt our image.
Nothing wrong with attempting to alleviate an issue that is truly a problem with a fragment of African Americans. If it makes a difference, Obama will have done much more good than evil by just coming out and saying it.
It’s like having a leak in your roof and you call a carpenter to assess it. He says,”You need a new roof.” We say, “Hey I’m offended cause you told me that!” See my point? If it don’t need fixin’ then why did Obama say it? The blacks were instrumental in electing Obama. Let’s listen to the guy and stop dissecting Image. What he said..yeah..might have hurt the image of blacks to an extent..but a higher purpose was served..at least that’s my opinion.
Children are our most precious commodity here..really. They should not be cheated of anything that would benefit them..EVEN IF WE GOTTA TAKE A FEW MOSQUITO BITES TO ACCOMPLISH THIS. Image is important, but improvement regarding education/parenting/ responsible for our children takes a priority. Let it go.
The history of this so called Nation was until recent times overwhelmingly White European.
The way you sound now you should stress the mule community since Mules and Horses were a greater contributor to building this nation than so called minority races.
I do not include the slave-ocracy since that system did more to retard the building of the nation and now the offspring of that Capitalist folly is destroying the nation faster than it can be patched up.
Supervising slaves who actually did the manual labor does not equal building the country.
Listening to Buchanan and his rant made me think two things – the white race has been set back 100 or more years AND it’s scary to think that there are people out there who believe this vitriol.
Laquita, it’s not the first time that Obama singles out Black people, in America as well as Africa.
Perhaps I missed it but I didn’t hear him talk to white America seriously to deal with their racism and history in America.
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>Yeah..yeah..the rest of America heard it and that might hurt our image..but father-less black children have Already hurt our image.
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it isn’t about ‘hurting Black image’, it is about singling out Black people who must be perfect and to do it alone as if living in a vacuum while all others get coddled and should be understood. Obama as the president of the United States of America is responsible to treat her citizens equally and to hold all people to the same standard.
But perhaps I get a wrong picture
@TM you may exclude the slave system in your personal mind, that doesn’t change the history of the US. You may come here and get the possibility to offend people, and yes even my response to you gives you too much room you don’t deserve with your mind-set.
No-8…I read what that old rich “white man” said, and I have to tell you, he’s probably referring to Social Economics Class. However, I don’t understand the meaning of “the white frame” , or “white frame thinking”…Would you please be a little more specific about that…
The fact is he was speaking to a minority of blacks..ones on welfare etc
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Hmmm…. I didn’t know the members of the NAACP were composed of the minority of African-Americans who are on welfare, etc. — as if people on welfare, in the main, forsake good parenting… something only stereotypes and other types of emotions vs. facts inform.
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As I suggested before, Obama is the president and these speeches are outside his job description. IMO, if he’s not talking about policies and what his administration can and cannot do so that the NAACP doesn’t feel its going to have to be around another 100 years… then he can STFU.
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I will, however, acknowledge how I have read/heard the entire speech which, from the snippets/reviews I’ve read, may have struck a totally different tone overall as the president covered a lot of ground painting the picture of what made the NAACP necessary in the first place.
To jwbe: You stated:
It isn’t about ‘hurting Black image’, it is about singling out Black people who must be perfect and to do it alone as if living in a vacuum while all others get coddled and should be understood.
I can’t dispute other ethnic groups get coddled compared to blacks. It’s true. I also agree with the premise that blacks are expected to be perfect to MAKE UP FOR JUST BEING BLACK! This is a truly bizarre phenomenon and pretty hard to combat. It’s like: “You look different from us, have biologically different features..that makes us uncomfortable..thus..you gotta be Over and Above perfect to even think about being accepted.” True indeed. It’s a tough road to climb. And don’t we all get sick of trying and trying to be “what they want” and still failing.
All that being said, we gotta take care of our kids. Again, there are priorities and priorities. If Obama made Just One black parent ( who was in that extreme minority of blacks) re-think how to better her relationship with her child..well..I love children..what can I say..it was worth it.
And yes, I think Obama could insert a few more statements in his speeches about compassion for the black community. As in: Black people are doing they best they can. Let’s reach out to them and REALLY accept our fellow Americans (as in) a MLK approach. I guess I’m a sucker for the compassion approach. Hey..you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Thanks for your response. 🙂
Mom-Joe, click over on the left on the “white racial frame” categories. I have explained it there. Also click Systemic Racism. For a fuller documentation with hundreds of research studies cited, see my new book on various book websites: The White Racial Frame: Centuries of Racial Framing and Counter-Framing, just out.
Just a little more talk about this racially different appearance thing. It can’t be under estimated. God..I could talk about this for hours!
Blacks differ visually from whites more than any other ethnic group. Now wait a minute..don’t say “DUH!” let me finish. Our skin is drastically darker than whites, our lips are fuller for the most part, our hair is tightly curled..we just “look” like we don’t fit in.
Whites complain about a whole range of black Behavior that separates them from the mainstream. Well..ok..put the case white people did Everything..I mean Everything that blacks supposedly do outside the norm. Result? I don’t think anybody’d kick up much of a fuss. Cause they LOOK like they belong.
I personally believe that racism will exist in America for a very long time. It exists all over the world..why shouldn’t it exist here? But (I’m gonna get slaughtered for this one!) behaving Irate, Combative, Malcolm X, Spewing Hatred, Foaming at the Mouth in Rage….just gonna make ’em say,”See I told you! Blacks ain’t Any Good!”
I’m not a born again Christian or anything so don’t go there..but I believe Love Is Stronger Than Hate. You can’t MAKE people change. It has to come from within. They have to internalize it. They ain’t gonna change with an AK47 in their face. Only makes them dig in their heels and Refuse to Listen.
Be Smart people! Make another man cry with compassion for Your Story..and you’ve won him. Use the psychology approach..the broken record..explain your feelings, your pain, your observations..that’s all any of us have really. And do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again… It’s not going to work overnight..hasn’t completely gotten us where we wanna be in how long? But hate-mongering Will Not Minutely Further Our Cause.
Argue the point if you want..and I appreciate the feedback. But again I’m sticking to my approach. AK47’s don’t change people’s souls. I honestly don’t “hate” anybody..and it’s served me well in my life. Medgar Evers, the black Civil Rights Worker in Mississippi, who was murdered by a white supremicist in 1963 once told his wife,” Half the people you hate don’t know it..and the other half don’t care!”
So who does hate hurt? The perpetrator of course. Don’t let the white man rot your soul with hatred. Again..broken record!
Hi LaquitaG,
I’m not here to slaughter. But I want to comment on your statement: behaving Irate, Combative, Malcolm X, Spewing Hatred, Foaming at the Mouth in Rage….just gonna make ‘em say,”See I told you! Blacks ain’t Any Good!”. . . . They ain’t gonna change with an AK47 in their face. Only makes them dig in their heels and Refuse to Listen.
Be Smart people!
Like you, I consider myself a person for “love not hate.” But I do not love racism or the denial of racism, and I hate the fact that I live in a racist society. I don’t see how pointing out and challenging racism or any other form of oppression is hateful. In fact, I see it as the exact opposite of hateful. (And I for one appreciate the perspective that Malcolm X offered to the public discourse.)
I think I understand your preference for a light-handed approach, but the truth is that no matter how you challenge oppression, you will encounter a huge amount of resistance. (Note that, although history has remembered MLK as a wonderful person, a large proportion of white people were none too fond of him in his heyday.)
Kristen Says:
“I don’t see how pointing out and challenging racism or any other form of oppression is hateful. ”
Kristen, I thik you’re spot on with that statement! I totally agree with you. Yeah..point it out and challenge it..just don’t accompany it with hatred and expletives and cruelty. I mean, state your case with the whites..but state it diplomatically.
Maybe I wasn’t clear on this. Once we stop pointing out the horrors of racism, it will proliferate more than ever. Just act like a class act when you do it. Be patient, be repetitive (even if you don’t feel like it!) Act like a good human being yourself..like Rosa Parks for example..an absolute Angel in my book. She was firm, oh yeah, but not cruel and vindictive.
And as far as reparation for slavery (another hot button)..guys..I’m a realist..it ain’t gonna happen. I’d let that one go and work on Today and the Future. Every sword is double edged: meaning for what we gain there is always a down side/price to pay. You want to make progress, think futuristically. If America, very realistically , made reparations for slavery it would economically break the country. Yeah..it would!
You made some good observations Kristen. Thank you!
About Buchanan’s rant..and it sure was a rant! Jeez-Lu-eeze!
Put aside was Maddow actually said to the guy (some of you don’t think she was tough enough). Let’s look at body language, urgency with which Maddow and Patty spoke, and hand gesticulating. Know what I saw? Patty was frantic to get his points across. He looked out of control, extremely nervous..KNOWING FULL WELL AT LEAST 50% of Americans were gonna go, “You’re so full of it Patty! You sound like a re-run of Alabama’s George Wallace in the 1960’s.”
He was Obviously hanging by a thread and he knew it. And why did he “know he was whistling in the dark”? There’s a black man in the Oval Office pal..you and the chummy white aristocracy’s days are numbered. Couldn’t you see the sweat on his brow? Oh-h-h-h the Agony of Defeat. He was scared sh–less.
Then there’s Maddow..Cool As A Cucumber. Her relaxed half-smile never faltered. She Knew his days were numbered..let him do his little tirade. Believe me..he did Not set Civil Rights back 100 years..if anything he illustrated how the White Right is in a state of transitional panic mode cause..The BS ain’t gonna work anymore pal..face it..you’re a dinosaur. I saw this interview as a hopeful sign…a very hopeful sign..
When the White Right starts to st-st-st-stutter like Patty did..they know it’s the beginning of the end.
Re: LaquitaG’s statement about using “Lover and not hate” (first, what does hate have to do with it?), I wonder how that works with the other thing mentioned about expecting Black people to be perfect.
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I also have a problem with acting like Black people are responsible for how White people chose to act. (I also have a problem with people who insist on telling Palestinians, e.g., how to act (i.e. non-violently) and suffer occupation/oppression at the hands of Israel.)
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Then, too, I can’t understand the unprovoked admonishment that “you can’t make people change” (me, I specifically don’t have that mindset addressed for that exact reason). I especially don’t understand the admonishment when it’s followed up with instructions of styles and strategies LaquitaG feels can be used to persuade Whites as if that’s the job of non-whites. And I really don’t understand any of that when LaquitaG suggests that racism has an long and indefinite expiration date. For the life of me, I can’t believe that was even a thought/consideration for Dr. King who promoted “Love”, at least at one point, as the weapon of change.
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And I agree with you, Kristen… Framing Malcolm X as a “hater” and mentioning the AK47 as if Malcolm X used it to threatened Whites is beyond the pale and historically challenged; the same way society remembers a very sanitized King and gives the impression that King was appreciated vs. resented like Rev. Jackson, Sharpton and, perhaps, Rev. Wright are today.
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There’s that schizophrenia again. And I’d be remiss if I didn’t note how some Whites insist on POC talking sweet to them and spending inordinate amount of time and energy trying to persuade them and “win” them over. If that ain’t WHITE SUPREMACY, I don’t know what is.
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I also don’t know who asked LaquitaG about reparations.
Thanks Joe,,
I will make an attempt to read, however, you would mind if I could ask you some questions about what you have written?.., I’ ll probably to ask you to “water is down for me., so that I may grasp the concept better. Thanks, again 🙂
Joe, just to let you know that this site is being censored by the “powers that be”…Anyway, I have read some of you explanations…I will get back to you when I have researched a little m0re about the topic…Thanks, Mom:)
One More Question for you…Do you believe in the “Freemason Society”.? / Thanks
Well, well, well. If it’s not our West Coast freak show, Tommy boy. (if that’s even really you—it’s probably some lame prank) Your suggestion is deliberately insulting and wrong. Who built this nation of hate, intolerance, and calculated and deliberate plaguing ignorance of the masses? White men. Who created eugenic and separatists ideals that have caused death, despair, and destruction upon people of color, including some white folks? White men. Do we forget the North American continent was firstly inhabited by abundant Indigenous populations prior to Spanish colonization? Then prior to European colonization, do we forget there were Spanish, Asian, and American Indian populations prior to Westward expansion? (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOKtE2bGj_w ). Are we that stupid? Honestly? Come on Thomas.
Excuse me, but who built the physical structures of this nation, such as, the White House, state capitals, etc.? Enslaved people. Whose actual labor was used to generate the wealth you speak of? Enslaved people. And how were they treated during those times? The cattle of the slave owners were treated better than enslaved human beings. Plus, I don’t think they raped their cattle as much as they did the human beings they enslaved—of whom they procreated with and served as prime role models for all men on how to dodge parenting responsibilities and caring for the children they bring in to this world. This nation is in much debt for slavery of which will hopefully be paid up sooner than later. Not to mention all of the other invaluable and priceless contributions African American communities have made to this nation.
On your cowardly practice of preying on younger, poor, disadvantaged in some way, white folks to screw up even more with your paranoid and sociopathic hallucinations, illusions, and fairy tales? Then trying to act like you’re all leftist? You’re anti-war? Really? You just have to change your tune enough so you don’t get sued again. And that’s probably why you’re so anti-capitalist now—because justice done right and economically drained you. Troubling, is that justice has not gone far enough in holding you accountable, as they did with Charles Manson, for all the hate crimes that have been carried out by your followers. But times are changing ever so slowly….
>You can’t MAKE people change. It has to come from within. They have to internalize it. They ain’t gonna change with an AK47 in their face.
Only makes them dig in their heels and Refuse to Listen.
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Laquita, please point out where in history ‘hugs and kisses’ ended oppressive systems. In addition that blames the victims of oppression that they acted ‘wrong’ in the first place and now deserve the discrimination.
To jwbe:
I didn’t say hugs and kisses. Guys… please don’t go beyond what I’m suggesting. I’m advising cool-headed logic and bombarding your opponent with facts.. not angry rampages. And no..DON’T KISS ASS! THAT’S DEMEANING! OF COURSE I BELIEVE THAT! Case in point: read my reaction to NQUEST. Do I sound remotely like an ass-kisser to you?
By the way, it’s So Nice to talk to a person who falls in the category of rational and level-headed..like you jwbe. You are a person who uses logic and reason to discuss issues. I mean, here’s a perfect example. I WILL LISTEN TO YOU..because you approach me in a calm, reasonable manner.
NQUEST? Well..let’s just say I think the guy’s got more axes to grind than Equal Rights. I just think the guy’s not on the level. Is anybody gonna agree with me that NQUEST is a little heavy-handed? You shouldn’t defend him Just Because he’s black. Yeah, he’s black..but he’s psycho. I mean the dude doesn’t like anybody. Read his blog history. He doesn’t like: Jews, Obama, Whites, Personallly I think he’s got a thing against women..I mean that takes in alot of territory. You got that kinda pent-up h
If you don’t..hey..that’s ok. Like I say, my approach has served me well. I like it. DON’T GO EXTRAPOLATING ON ME..KISSING UP DOES NOT EQUAL KEEPING COOL! THE COOLER YOU ARE..THE MORE FLUSTERED YOUR OPPONENT BECOMES..STANDARD DEBATE PROCEDURE.
Just trying to share my observations.
@Laquita,
I am a very direct person and therefore point one: I question that you are actually Black. I already question this because you mention in some threads here that you are Black and feel it necessary to point it out so often. I can be wrong of course, this only that you know how I perceive your writings, this will also not change regardless who you claim to be.
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>NQUEST? Well..let’s just say I think the guy’s got more axes to grind than Equal Rights. I just think the guy’s not on the level. Is anybody gonna agree with me that NQUEST is a little heavy-handed? You shouldn’t defend him Just Because he’s black. Yeah, he’s black..but he’s psycho.
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And now I have enough. I am tired of how Nquest is treated by so many, throughout the years I know him/posting together on internet. The so many people who are not willing or mentally capable to actually read and understand what he writes.
And while you Laquita try to diminish him and his knowledge by calling him psycho, it tells more about you than you are perhaps able to realize.
You also don’t have to tell me that you would listen to me because you think I would be rational and calm, I know, that you will stop listening to me at a certain point of discussion with the mind-set you have, so do not even try this with me and don’t insult my intelligence
Let’s get this discussion back on to the subject at hand, which is about Pat Buchanan, and less with the personal attacks about various people commenting, their intelligence or lack thereof.
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About Pat Buchanan, there’s a petition floating around on Twitter to tell MSNBC to fire him. I got into an interesting discussion on Twitter (I’m there as @JessieNYC if you want to follow my updates there) with someone I follow there about whether or not he should be fired. He was arguing that having Pat Buchanan on MSNBC was a good thing for racial equality because it showed just how crazy/racist he is. I argued that he should be fired because it emboldens his perspective, which as I’ve demonstrated, is indistinguishable from white supremacists such as Tom Metzger (who commented here above).
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So, what do you think: should MSNBC fire Pat Buchanan? Why or why not?
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Discuss, stay on topic, and please keep it civil or we’ll close the comments again.
>Discuss, stay on topic, and please keep it civil or we’ll close the comments again.
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I would like to ask you to make an open thread or whatever to be able to discuss this. You let through some quite offending/racist posts,but when people try to challenge this you threaten to close the comments section.
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Yes they should. His racist dribble shouldn’t have access to mainstream news, I don’t care if Lawrence O’Donnell calls him the “crazy uncle.” I’ve got crazy uncles. They’re crazy. Not racist.
So now I’m not black? I’m not black cause I stated it at the beginning of some of my posts? This is truly INSANE.
Excuse me for barging in at the Club House. Didn’t know this was a Private Party!!
Jessie, if MSNBC won’t fire Buchanan (I voiced my displeasure to MSNBC back during the primaries when Buchanan wrote that African-Americans should be “grateful” to be here), there should be a movement for racial/racist equality insisting that MSNBC balances ‘Uncle Pat’ with someone who evokes a similar reaction in the public imagination, like Obama’s “crazy uncle” Rev. Jeremiah Wright or Min. Louis Farrakhan.
>I argued that he should be fired because it emboldens his perspective, which as I’ve demonstrated, is indistinguishable from white supremacists such as Tom Metzger (who commented here above).
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why do you think that PB should be fired and on the other hand you give Tom Metzger the space to publish his thoughts and link to his website? Where is the difference?
Thanks for staying on topic, No1Kstate. LaQuitaG, you’ve said your piece. You’re welcome to stay, but please stay on the topic.
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Jwbe – Calling someone’s identity into question isn’t helping move the discussion forward.
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I swear, I feel like Mother here…I’ll turn this car around if you can’t quit bickering.
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Seriously people, last chance. Keep civil, keep it on the topic (not individual personalities).
In light of focusing back on Buchanan, let’s take another look at Laquita’s logic:
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behaving Irate, Combative, Malcolm X, Spewing Hatred…[is]…just gonna make ‘em say,”See I told you! Blacks ain’t Any Good!”
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I want to know what are the widespread Buchanan Behavior in the media is “just gonna make” POC say. That is, what I Told You So’s is both Buchanan’s Behavior and Rachel Maddow’s and MSNBC’s behavior is being reinforced by giving Buchanan a platform they most certainly won’t give Jeremiah Wright.
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Enter Keith Olbermann.
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Out of all his Worst Person’s In The World, I don’t recall Buchanan being among them no matter how much and how many times, just on the Sotomayor nomination alone. Yet, Olbermann does his best to meet the stereotypes conservatives have of self-righteous, self-important, moralizing liberals who, in Olberamann’s case during the last Rev. Wright media frenzy, feel appointed to say who is and who isn’t “a man of God.”
Jessie, does your book on Cyber Racism deal with the observed reality POC are aware of with regards to repeated and numerous White interlopers who claim to be Black or Native American or Hispanic yet eventually reveal themselves via “the white racial frame” they espouse and other observable inconsistencies?
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Of course you know cyber racism isn’t merely contained on sites like Stormfront.
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In my online experience, I’ve seen it all and I’ve certainly seen people pretend to be something that they’re not. It’s like the oldest trick in the book and like any other trait/behavior Dr. Feagin or Bonilla-Silva has observed.
I don’t think that Buchanan would have the possibility of media presence in Germany.
As to German hate-speech laws for those Americans interested: Tom Metzgers website is considered illegal in Germany and also linking to it violates German hate speech laws, which I appreciate, the German google search engine does block access to his website, because in Germany owners of blogs, websites, forums etc., are responsible for the content on their sites, including links
“The blacks were instrumental in electing Obama.”
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Regarding mainstream discourse… It’s clear plenty of people in the so-called “mainstream” agree with Buchanan’s take on the Ricci case.
@Jessie – I haven’t read through all the posts. So I was more or less responding to the question you posed cause it was the first comment that made sense without having to read through all the posts. So, I’m not sure how much I stayed on topic as much as I didn’t care to read the back and forth concerning Laquinta.
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“World’s Worst Persons” used to be one of my favorite segments. But having heard all of and listened to the entire interview around Rev. Wright’s “them Jews” comments, Olbermann lost my respect when he placed Rev. Wright at the top of the worst’s list. It was clear to me that in a haste to prove his “nonpartisan anti-racism” he maligned Rev. Wright. Maybe I have the benefit of black English being a first language (Take a look at social linguistics.) , but it should’ve been clear to any thinking person that Rev. Wright was talking about the AIPAC. So, I’m not sure how much of a true balance Olbermann offers to PB, and I also don’t think Rev. Wright would be a true balance because much, if not all, of what he says is true. I don’t follow (as in watch, not as in disciple) Farrakhan, so I’m not up on his most recent rhetoric. From what I’ve heard him say, though, he sticks closer to the truth than PB.
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PB needs to be fired, even if you’re operating out of a white racial reference frame, because he’s inaccurate and misleading. Yeah, the Constitution was written by white men – they didn’t let anybody else in the meeting! I think someone else said before that PB’s claims ignores/denies the labor of women and people of color and the money and time generated by that labor. Remember Gloria? The commenter who got mad cause we said, according to her, that her immigrant father didn’t sweat his way to success? For all her pride about her grandfather, what happened to her grandmother? Did she die in childbirth or something? This patriarchal rhetoric PB spews is widespread, even in my family, I confess. But the man is wrong, inaccurate, misleading, and racist, I don’t care what he did in the Nixon admin. You’d think just being allied with Nixon would kill someone’s chances of being taking seriously.
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But PB ain’t the only one! Why does CNN keep giving his wife air-time? And what about Bill Bennet? How does he have a job?
@Nquest – I think they agree cause they’re uninformed and ignorant, too. And, has anyone heard from the black firefighters on this?
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@everyone else – Sorry about the bold. “top” was the only word that was supposed to be in bold. Thought I had closed it.
ok, I did a short research, I am not so familiar with Pat Buchanan. Because it seems that he is also a Holocaust denier he would face prison and definitely had zero mainstream possibility to spread his hate
No1KState, the operative phrase was “in the public imagination.” To spell it out, take a person who White America despises the way Black America despises/regards Pat Buchanan. Of course, we know America’s history, by definition, make direct equivalents pretty difficult. And I share your thoughts about the loss of respect for Olbermann which is the reason why I said what I did.
I don’t know whether it’s been mentioned here but Frank Ricci has filed several employment discrimination or wrongful firing/retaliation suits in his career. I mentioned that because Ricci owes it to the very civil rights struggle Buchanan & Party demeans. According to reports, Ricci got his first firefighter job by a successful settlement reach from his suit brought against New Haven FD alleging violations, due to his dyslexia, of the Americans with Disabilities Act (which, IMO, was aided or made possible by the CRM).
http://www.slate.com/id/2222087/
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I would love to know the facts in that case because it’s not clear from the limited information I’ve seen that he had a case — i.e. no reference to having a higher score than other test takers.
“…has anyone heard from the black firefighters on this?”
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That’s what I was wondering or trying to figure out when they announced that Frank Ricci and Lt. Vargas were going to be on one of the witness panels. I’m not very familiar with how confirmation hearings go but I just found it odd for the Senate to give one-side of the debate, so to speak, preference/deference.
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No1, it’s my understanding that the Black firefighters with the help of the NAACP will try to sue New Haven regarding the test. The problem I had with how the case has been portrayed in the media is how no one really talked about the history of the department up to and including the last test or two before the one in question in the Ricci case. Seems to me that, after a long history of problems with discrimination/lack of any diversity, a number of Blacks and Hispanics started making rank when the test was different (i.e. I got the impression that the test in the Ricci case was the first time they used it).
@Nquest – Yeah, I get that. I just don’t like that people who’re telling the truth are compared equally to someone who’s inaccurate.
@Nquest –
It was the first time they used it. Ginsburg mentioned the history of discrimination in the dissent, but it didn’t get much play.
Joe, I am not finished with my research regarding your books, but I do see where you would get the “white frame thinking” from…I agree with you that it is ingrained into our heads, not from our parents, but from the time we enter school…It’s the “frame of mind of the American Patriot”…Right?? I am still in the beginning stages, but I like history, and have been researching a lot about “slavery” in general around the world..I am sure you know that there have been slaves from all cultures, since the beginning of time..I would like to discuss this with you at a later date…..However, I think that your site is very informational, regarding the African American slavery and culture, and I truly enjoyed the article, regarding American Indians..”Ingenious People”””Thanks, MOM
Mom-Joe, glad that has been helpful so far. Slavery is an important question. Yes, it has existed in many places. Yet, White-on-black enslavement, many scholars agree, was distinctively oppressive beyond many other slavery systems. For example, in many slavery systems, as in the ancient world. those enslaved could become educated or were otherwise treated better, or much better, than in the US system. Tis a long story. Whites invented and controlled the Atlantic slave trade for centuries, and 30 – 50 million Africans (and some indigenous people who were enslaved) died or were enslaved in that bloody system..
To MOM:
Are you the Native American woman who was on the blog regarding the Valley Club swimming pool discrimation charges? The blog that was closed down?
Cause I’ve got a long list of books for you to read linking/comparing Black Experience in America with Native American.
Yes, Indian blood..My great grandmother was the Pocahontas of one of Lenape tribes in the northern states many years ago….Why do you ask?
Mom: The people mentioned here are virtually all over the net. Just take your pick. You can find many of the books they wrote by simply going to Ebay, typing in Books and then their names. Hope you like reading them. I own The Invasion of America by Francis Jennings myself. Great read. Enjoy.
Deborah Batiste and Pamela Harris urge in a multicultural manual for teachers, “Avoid dwelling on the negatives which may be associated with a cultural or ethnic group. Every culture has positive characteristics which should be accentuated.” Historian Ronald Takaki argues that blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians were no less responsible than whites for shaping the ideas and institutions of the United States: “What we need is a new conceptualization of American history where there’s no center, and there’s no margin, but we have all these groups engaging in discourse . . . unlearning much of what we have been told . . . in the creation of a new society.”
In order to see the multicultural paradigm at work, we would do well to consider the passionate debate that has raged in the academy over the legacy of Christopher Columbus. Provoked by the five hundredth anniversary of the Columbus landing, virtually every leading advocate of multiculturalism-Edward Said, Stephen Greenblatt, Kirkpatrick Sale, Gary Nash, Ronald Takaki, Patricia Limerick, Garry Wills-lashed out against Columbus or his successors. Yet it is not Columbus the man who is being indicted but what he represents: the first tentative step toward the European settlement of the Americas. Consequently, the debate over Columbus is a debate over whether Western civilization was a good idea and whether it should continue to shape the United States. Many critics argue the negative:
“Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent,” asserts American Indian activist Russell Means.
Winona LaDuke deplores “the biological, technological, and ecological invasion that began with Columbus’ ill-fated voyage five hundred years ago.”
The National Council of Churches declares the anniversary of Columbus “not a time for celebration” but for “reflection and repentance” in which whites must acknowledge a continuing history of “oppression, degradation, and genocide.”
Historian Glenn Morris accuses Columbus of being “a murderer, a rapist, the architect of a policy of genocide that continues today.”
“Could it be that the human calamity caused by the arrival of Columbus,” African-American writer Ishmael Reed asks, “was a sort of dress rehearsal of what is to come as the ozone becomes more depleted, the earth warms, and the rain forests are destroyed?”
“All of us have been socialized to be racists and benefit from racism constantly,” Christine Slater laments in the journal Multicultural Education. “The very locations on which our homes rest should rightfully belong to Indian nations.”
Literary scholar Stephen Greenblatt alleges that Columbus “inaugurated the greatest experiment in political, economic, and cultural cannibalism in the history of the Western world.”
Let us examine the consistent portrait that emerges in multicultural literature about the legacy of Columbus. The advocates of multiculturalism are unanimous that Columbus did not discover America. As Francis Jennings writes in The Invasion of America, “The Europeans did not settle a virgin land. They invaded and displaced a native population.” American Indian activist Mike Anderson says, “There was a culture here and there were people and there were governments here prior to the arrival of Columbus.” Kirkpatrick Sale contends, “We can say with assurance that no such event as a ‘discovery’ took place.” Novelist Homer Aridjis contends that Europeans and native Indians “mutually discovered each other.” Garry Wills, Gary Nash, Ronald Takaki, and other scholars typically speak not of a “discovery” but of an “encounter.”
” Historian Ronald Takaki argues that blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians were no less responsible than whites for shaping the ideas and institutions of the United States: “OMG!!!
Thank you for the information…Now I would like to give you some UTUBE sites to go to and please “keep an open mind” the sites are as follows on YouTube.com
Illuminati Bloodline
Illuminati Freemason III 6/7
Illuminate Symbolism (open your mind)
Famous Freemasons Exposed
Barack Obama related to 6 presidents
These are a few of them, however, you will be able to open up other sites that involve the Bush genealogy….In fact, that was broadcasting on one of our news channels….
I agree, every race has positives character traits or gifts that should be celebrated…However, if you look what’s going on in “modern day” we won’t have a that luxury….
Joe I want to get back to you at a later date to continue with our discussion..
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Thanks, Mom
Very happy to oblige you Mom! You seem like a very sweet lady with a genuine interest in learning as much as possible about racism. I WILL check out those sites you mentioned! Best Regards, smoke.a.newport! 🙂
@Joe
>click over on the left on the “white racial frame” categories. I have explained it there. Also click Systemic Racism. For a fuller documentation with hundreds of research studies cited, see my new book on various book websites: The White Racial Frame: Centuries of Racial Framing and Counter-Framing, just out.
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a question to you, why do you call it ‘white racial frame’ and not Eurocentrism?
Jwbe, I prefer to accent just how racialized this broad frame is…..It certainly has Eurocentric elements. The concept of frame is also useful for my conceptual and empirical analyses of actual racial oppression and its rationalization/legitimation in North America, which is my focus in this book.
>Jwbe, I prefer to accent just how racialized this broad frame is…..It certainly has Eurocentric elements.
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ok. Do you think one can combat white supremacy without combatting Eurocentrism?
Good questions. It is a bit of a long discussion, since you first have to define the terms here, like Eurocentrism.
I do spell out in detail what I mean by the white racial frame here
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/03/12/white-racial-frame/
and in the book The White Racial Frame. Also Systemic Racism. What do you have in mind with the term Eurocentrism? It is used in many different ways in the stuff I read.
@Joe
I will read it later.
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>What do you have in mind with the term Eurocentrism?
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Do you know the book Yurugu?
Yes, I have used Yurugu numerous times in my sociological theory seminars, and regularly cite the book. She makes very important points about the character of the Western philosophical approach to the world.
@Joe
ok, I will write my thoughts about Eurocentrism later.
Just now as a side-note, yes I got it that you studied, wrote books, hold seminars etc.
Be aware, I have ‘studied’ European culture my own way almost my entire life and I am very sensitive to quite alot typical ‘white frames’.
Rachel Maddow attempts to set the record straight:
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907200054
@Joe,
you can find my answer here:
http://stuffwhitepeoplesay.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/white-racial-frame/
there we can continue the discussion
Mom-Joe, I’ve done a little more research regarding discrimination….I also took the liberty in looking up the word “Euro-centrism”, which by the way, I am grateful, to “jwbe” for bringing that up over and over…..I also discovered a new word called “Afrocentrism”, which would indicate that African Americans would also have their own belief systems..I don’t understand the logic…. However, I do know, that is sounds like an insult to “white people” if they didn’t stay around and further investigate this site. When using that term it would immediately shut down the minds of most “white people” in thinking that your are a racist against white people, in general. And, I don’t feel that’s what you are talking about…Anyway, as mentioned before, I am still in the beginning stages of this research. I do have a question for you..Why are you targeting the Northern states with your book?…Thanks Mom—-
Mom-Joe, as mentioned before, I have been doing research, regarding ,discrimination, but I have to tell you something it’s an enormous amount of information..However, when I am done, you will probably, be sorry that you invited me…(I mean that jokingly)….I am a researcher, this is my field of expertise….I am not a scientist, however, I am more like a librarian…LOLOL ,but ture!!!!!:)