It’s summer time and kids across the land are looking for ways to cool off and have fun. Many of them turn to swimming pools, like these kids (NBCPhiladelphia).
During Jim Crow segregation, prevalent in the North as well as in the South, racial integration in public accommodations such as swimming pools was prohibited both by law and, in many more places, by custom. Then, the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965 passed, and discrimination on the basis of race in public accommodations such as swimming pools became illegal. Today, almost fifty years later many tend to regard racial discrimination in public accommodations a relic of a bygone era.
Unfortunately, some white folks in Northeast Philadelphia failed to get the message (h/t @netwoman). More than 60 African American kids attending a day camp in Northeast Philadelphia were turned away from a private swim club because of their race. Here’s the story from the local NBC affiliate:
“I heard this lady, she was like, ‘Uh, what are all these black kids doing here?’ She’s like, ‘I’m scared they might do something to my child,'” said camper Dymire Baylor.
The Creative Steps Day Camp paid more than $1900 to The Valley Swim Club. The Valley Swim Club is a private club that advertises open membership. But the campers’ first visit to the pool suggested otherwise.
“When the minority children got in the pool all of the Caucasian children immediately exited the pool,” Horace Gibson, parent of a day camp child, wrote in an email. “The pool attendants came and told the black children that they did not allow minorities in the club and needed the children to leave immediately.”
The next day the club told the camp director that the camp’s membership was being suspended and their money would be refunded. “There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club,” John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club said in a statement.
Since this story broke earlier today, another camp has stepped in and and offered their pool to the kids where their “complexion” would not be a problem (h/t @AllAboutRace).
The actions of the white pool owners has caused so much controversy that U.S. Senator Arlen Specter (D-Pa.) plans to launch an investigation into the discrimination claim. In a statement today, Specter said:
“The allegations against the swim club as they are reported are extremely disturbing. I am reaching out to the parties involved to ascertain the facts. Racial discrimination has no place in America today.”
It’s a good thing that there are laws in place that prohibit racial discrimination of this sort, and that people were outraged this happened, and that a U.S. Senator is stepping up to investigate and, at least potentially, take some action against these perpetrators of swimming pool racism.
Yet, it’s an appalling fact to realize that nearly fifty years after the passage of the Civil Rights Acts, we are still grapping with the continuing significance of racism in public places. We are, apparently, still at a point where we’re having to investigate people for violating the prohibition against racial discrimination in public accommodations. Think about these kids in Northeast Philly next time you hear someone use the phrase “post-racial.”
Update: If you’d like to tell the people at the exclusionary club what you think of their actions, you can reach them by email here: email@example.com or by phone here:215-947-0700 (h/t @CMcGranahan @harrislacewell).
2nd Update (7/10/09, 8:48amET): The Valley Club in NE Philly denies racism saying the kids were turned away because the pool was “overcrowded.” And, Cullen Jones, Olympic Gold Medalist swimmer and African American, reacts to this incident. Both here (via @BlackInformant).
3rd Update: Adam B at DailyKos has this sharp review of local newpapers and recent events.
UPDATE 4 (JOE):
The Swim Club has backed off, according to CNN:
A suburban Philadelphia swim club has invited children from a largely minority day-care center to come back after a June reversal that fueled allegations of racism against the club, a spokeswoman said Sunday. The development came during a hastily called Sunday afternoon meeting of the Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania. Club members voted overwhelmingly to try to work things out with the day-care center, which accused some swim club members of making racist comments to black and Hispanic children contracted to use the pool, said Bernice Duesler, the club director’s wife.
A little public pressure and looks like they may belatedly do the right thing?
UPDATE Thursday, 7/16, 8:37amET: Comments are now closed (read-only, no additional posts). Previous posts that include personal attacks have been deleted. This blog is intended to be a place for civil, adult conversation about issues related to race and racism. While these subjects can become heated when people disagree, it’s possible to have such a conversation without resorting to ad hominem attacks against individuals. We invite you to comment elsewhere on the blog and remain respectful of each other. If you’re unable to do that, we invite you to find a different blog on which to post comments. – Joe & Jessie
It’s so sad to say that I am not surprised at all… “even today” as we like to say… Thank you for including their contact information!
I’m a bit torn on this issue. While on the surface, this incident is horrific, especially its impact on the self-esteem of the children being forced to exit, I have some underlying questions before I can throw the baby out with the bathwater.
1. It’s a private club. However disgusting it may be to have “criteria” for joining, it’s legal, and rampant. Federal law states “Federal law prohibits privately owned facilities that offer food, lodging, gasoline or entertainment to the public from discriminating on the basis of race, color, religion, or national origin.” (http://public.findlaw.com/civil-rights/civil-rights-enforcement/public-accommodation-discrimination-enforcement.html) Just because they engaged in a contract with an organization, does that mean it automatically makes the club public? The issue that keeps coming up is that if they are paying “customers”, it no longer is private. Not necessarily. Just because a club contracts with other organizations, doesn’t mean it’s open to the general public, like a library, grocery store, or shopping mall is (which is what law was intended for – imo).
2. Did the members vote on allowing outside contracts? Did they have the right to vote on issues like this? I read somewhere (I keep trying to find the article that referenced it, but no luck) that stated this was a new thing to allow non-members access. Regardless what the policy was, why weren’t the members informed about guests using the facility? My interpretation of the article was that they were taken by surprise.
3. When the day camp signed the contract, was there stipulations or clauses inserted that allowed the club to cancel as long as all monies were refunded? This is popular wording in contracts which, if included, would give this club some wiggle room.
4. Looking at it from a social standpoint, why did the white children leave the pool? Did they feel uncomfortable because of new people? Because of their skin color? Because of the kids behavior? Or just because they were new? Were their parents forcing them to get out? Did the parents make them feel bad for wanting to stay in, if they wanted to? Those questions have gone unasked. Also, we have eye-witness accounts from a parent of a guest, but what about a parent/child that was a member? What is their side of the story? I am inclined to believe this incident occurred because the campers were black; however we still need to hear what them members/club management has to say.
The club will have to give a better reason for terminating the contract other that “it was changing the complexion” of the club – realllllllllly bad wording on their part. Hopefully the kids can find a more accepting atmosphere to swim this summer.
siss, I mean, really? Really? No, really?
Didn’t we, and by we I mean us as a nation, learn how important “contracts” are with the whole business of TARP and bonuses?
Now. If we wanna chalk this up to “private” country clubs and their rights, fine. Cause I’m just waiting to have the funds to open a country club for the black elite of my area. But there’s no need to try to keep the baby. The baby’s dead. The baby drowned. Dead, drowned baby. Throw it, and the now toxic bath water, out. We don’t need to do an autopsy or have a memorial. Just throw it out.
Siss, you are probably related to the Club’ s owners. You sound like such a bigot.
The fact is these kids were discriminated against by some white yuppies who are still trying to live in the 50’s.
I’m a businessman myself and you can’t try to explain away the actions of the pool owners from a business point of view. The truth is the truth.
Get a brain, you idiot.
I will say this though. If I was the camp, and especially the kids’ parents, I would take the attitude that I was doing that club a favor! Something like, “I ain’t wanna swim with your [some caustic version of a negative stereotype black folks have about white people] selves anyway!”
siss– I can’t tell if you are trying to rationalize the irrational or excuse the inexcusable..but it’s impossible to do either.
This article literally reduced me to tears.
One striking thing here is just how many whites participated in such racist activity–numerous white children, parents, officials, and so on. More than 2-3 bigots. And where is the local white protest against discrimination at the club–
There seem to be no white dissenters to discrimination locally?
One more, racism and the old white racist frame are shown to be deep and strong.
Adam B at dailykos has a good summary of recent events and news coverage:
A few points. To siss: I am so tired of people trying to make the club’s private nature an issue. Who cares? The issue is not whether they have a “right” to discriminate, if they are private. The issue is, people who do this are assholes and racists, and need to be called out. Hiding behind their rights is a cowardly thing: just because I have a right to do something doesn’t mean I should be immune from criticism when I do it. I have a “right” to shout racial slurs on the corner, but if I do, you have a right (and obligation) to call me an asshole.
Secondly, the comments on the NBC affiliate website in Philly indicate something even worse: that for many, many whites, they are GLAD the club doesn’t want blacks there, and are justifying that behavior in explicitly racist ways.
Third, and here’s the kicker: it appears as though the club president, John Duesler, is a frickin Obama supporter, and the head of the Philly area Peace Action group…which confirms my Racism 2.0 thesis in my book, Between Barack and a Hard Place: namely, that white liberals who supported Obama were often the kinds of people who liked him only because he was “different” than “those other” black folks: so they carved out exceptions for the “exceptional” while still holding on to prejudices re: the larger group.
Tim, Joe, No1KState, THANK YOU.
More biting commentary here: http://field-negro.blogspot.com/2009/07/i-though-black-folks-couldnt-swim-why.html
Thanks for all the warm responses. Especially you MP, a real class act.
Distance: Where in any of that post am I rationalizing this behavior? Because I’m trying to understand all aspects I am some how condoning it? I think not.
Tim: I agree that just because you CAN do something, doesn’t mean you SHOULD. The contract issue was only one point that I brought up. No matter how things look from the outside, each side deserves a chance to explain what happened. Most likely the club will make up some bs excuse about why they did what they did, however, it still needs to be heard. That was the whole point of my post.
I’ll be nicer than some, but you’re so wrong and digging a bigger hole with every single post, OK.
For as many folks described in the article as getting out of the pool when the black kids got there, you’ve got to ask yourself: was that REALLY a nice thing for them to do to some camp kids?
First off, the club accepted that $1900 in good faith. If they didn’t want outside folks in their little club, then up the rates on the members, right?
I recommend you look at the psychological damage this sort of thing can do to a child before getting into the “rights” of a private club. On the heels of Barack Obama’s election, what do these kids from Philly think about how the world really works?
That crappy country club isn’t the victim here. Some day camp kids showed up on a hot day to swim and their camp organizers paid good damn money for that to happen. But, I guess that’s OK for some people to put a group of kids back on a bus in the summer’s heat so that their “rights” aren’t infringed upon? What this country club did was cruel. And until you point that out, nobody’s going to listen to you because you sound like an apologist for the club, and that’s just a big old bowl of wrong.
One of The biggest signals of the white racist orientation of many whites in this case is that there is absolutely, so far as I can find, no local white protest to this extreme racist action. Where are the “good whites” the media keeps saying there are? Why so little open dissent by whites to acts of racism. That is a direct refutation of notions of a post-racial society.
The big issue is not just whites who do this stuff, but all the whites who sit back and do nothing.
Thanks Phil, but no thanks. Funny how I DID make mention of their well being before I divulged into my points. Because really, the only thing that matters are the well being of both the white and black children in this situation, so to jog your memory, I’ll repost. [“…this incident is horrific, especially its impact on the self-esteem of the children being forced to exit…”] From the standpoint of the children, yes it was extremely cruel if they where kicked out because of their skin color. Also it is detrimental to the white children because its sets the example that it’s acceptable to do so. No one has yet to consider my point #4? Why not look into that aspect too? Can we not question WHY the children left the pool, among other things? However, is customary for many to hone in on one point and hang on with a death grip. *cries myself a river, builds a bridge and gets over it*
To address the legal issue first: It is a private club that advertises that it is “open to all” — that is, anyone who can pay the dues can join. I don’t know if that makes it a place of public accommodation, but I think it should.
And now to address another flimsy excuse — that it wasn’t really about race, it was about quantity and overcrowding, about the reality that 65 additional swimmers all at once was just too many: Please. Here’s an idea for a little experiment: Get 65 white kids together and somehow slip them into this club one by one until all 65 are in. Betcha no one even notices.
If quantity was the problem, they should have addressed that at the time arrangements were made. (You think they weren’t told that the payment was for 65 campers? How do you suppose that $1,900 was calculated?) However, I doubt they’d turn away 65 individual new members, and would never give a moment’s thought to what would happen if all 65 of those members showed up at the same time.
It would be interesting to track how many of their memberships get canceled because of this. Hell, I’d join SPECIFICALLY so I could cancel.
I don’t mean to pile on here, but based on the four numbered points you raised, it seemed (intent is always hard to determine on the Internet) to me like you were playing the role of the Valley Swim Club defense attorney or something (“While on the surface this incident is horrific…”–no, it’s horrific all the way down to the core)—discussing the rights of the club members/management while not mentioning the rights of the camp-goers, legal contract issues and the possibility of giving the club ‘wiggle room’, and searching for other mitigating circumstances–(the white kids didn’t leave the pool because the camp-goers were black, they left because they were ‘new’) which in all honesty, aren’t mitigating in the least.
Cause, Joe, the club has “rights.” And siss, this is why everyone’s responding to you the way we are. We don’t need to examine their side, they’ll do it themselves. And ultimately, it doesn’t matter. But, I am familiar with the tack you’re taking. The problem is that on the surface and down deep, on this side and the other, on this hand and the other, this is a horrific thing to do. If the members didn’t get to vote, they’re less horrifically racist ways to voice discontent. Unless every black child dove into a white child and tried to drown him/her, there’s no excuse for this reaction. I’ve been at a pool where there was a dead mouse in the drain, and the people didn’t act like this. And you can believe everybody got back in the water once the mouse was taken out. What did these people think was gonna happen? We say chocolate to describe complexion, not because black skin actually melts. And with that whole thing about black people not being able to swim, you’d think they would’ve been to stunned to see black people swimming to act like such buffoons! Ok, not really, just saying. They didn’t have react like that – like Bush invading Iraq in response to 9/11/01. Maybe the camp should have sent in one black child at a time at 15-20 min intervals. You know. Boil the white kids like frogs. One day, 5 black kids. Next day, 6. By the end of the summer, you’d have a pool full of black kids, including the white kids who got covered in “chocalate!”
Okay. Putting my serious hat back on. I haven’t read any online comments about the story. Has anyone brought up the prospect of “miscegenation”?
Based on the DailyKos link you provided (which seems to be updated frequently), a (white) gentleman named Marc Stier has organized a protest to take place today at 5:30pm outside the grounds of the swim club–racial make-up of the protesters TBD. Unsurprisingly, mainstream media coverage of this incident and the resulting outrage is non-existent.
Distance: It seems very clear that the children’s rights are being covered extensively AS THEY SHOULD BE. I was offering a different opinion for the sake of discussion and my personal opinion. The wiggle room comment was meant to convey that the club might get off on a technicality, not that because they were free of blame. Intent is a very hard thing to grasp over the internet, indeed.
The NAACP is going to become this club’s worst nightmare.
Read this late last night- made me think of how loaded the whole swimming thing still is….
I think about everytime my kids are the only black kids in the pool (often)- the range of receptions (visible recoiling to nonchalance) we encounter…
While this instance is particularly well defined and well publicized- the reality is that a lot of “public” spaces and institutions are still closed to our kids… sigh…. public or private- racism is racism. Separate is not equal.
Also, just saying, when the same kinds of rationale’s were used to bolster anti-semiticism in “private” club public spaces it seems very few people argued in favor of the club’s rights…
And finally, yes, I am ranting, hello, who cares who owns the facility- its another example of the institutionalized racism that creates the foundation for health and educational disparities between African American children and the general population.
This piece deeply disturbed me. Being from Philly, it hurts me to see my own neighbors turned away due to the color of their skin. It seems as if this headline jumped out of a paper from the 1950s. What bothers me the most was that the first act of racism was the White children exiting the pool as the Black children entered. These children obviously were raised to fear and avoid Blacks.
At least you are looking at the issue from both sides. Thank you for that..
Everyone else, racism is STILL in this country, period. It will never go away. Don’t kid yourself.
Now, for those that complain, think about this. When I went to college, I remember thinking why are there all these “minority” scholarships, special offers, etc (Example: http://www.blackexcel.org/link4.htm) Hmmm
I think it is funny that the only time you hear something about racism in the media it is because a BLACK person felt they were denied something because of color. How about a WHITE person being denied something because they are WHITE. That is how I personally felt every time I see all these minority only things.
So in short, you don’t have to like it, you can complain all day about it, but it will never change.
So what did you expect these kids to do? Drag around their attorney with them at every paid activity they put down four figures for just on the off-chance someone renegs on a contract?
As for you and your little friend Bubba, when you start to cry “reverse racism,” you first need to realize, acknolwedge and accept that the racism that blacks in this country dealt with is real, not imagined. But please, by all means, continue to live in your little fairy tale world that these country club folks are, somehow, repressed by “reverse racism.”
You white folks are UNBELIEVABLE. Are you saying that black folks have taken all your “good jobs?” Please. You think black folks are lazy and shouldn’t be allowed into places even after they pay admission, so why should anyone listen to a thing you’ve got to say?
To the contrary, black folks should have it equal to white folks. But you missed my point. WHY should black folks have anything SPECIAL ( special minority scholarships, NAACP, etc) when if WHITE people do it is RACIST??? And it is not “reverse racism” it is just racism. Why wouldn’t the NAACP come to the aid of a WHITE person that didn’t get a job because they were WHITE? or maybe they couldn’t get into a BLACK private club because they are WHITE. It is because it is the Nation Association for the Advancement of COLORED People. hmmm Racist organization for colored ( aka black) people.
All I am saying is that equal is EQUAL.
I am not saying that that the swim club did was right or wrong. All I am saying is that until BLACK folks stop having all these BLACK only organizations then they have no leg to stand on as far as complaining when it is in the other direction.
There was an old SNL skit spoofing The Real World with every possible minority living in the house, and every minority hating another minority. Lesbians hated Eskimos, Eskimos hated Irishmen, Irishmen hated Native Americans, Native Americans hated African-Americans, African-Americans hated gays, gays hated Hispanics, etc. Years pass but it remains so trenchant.
So when African-Americans and Hispanics vote en masse to deny gays and lesbians their rights, or, hell, when I flip on a Redskins (great name, huh?) game and see an old black man dressed in “Indian” garb and warpaint . . . well, the irony of all the outrage you guys are voicing on this blog is just seems so delicious! Let me just cover the rest of it for you:
Scrap the firefighters’ exam in New Haven because only white people and Hispanics qualified for promotion; throw the black kids out of the pool; ban gay marriage; stop trying to secularize Christmas; live in a colorblind society; colorblindness is a farce, there are the effects of centuries of racism that need to be ameliorated; Native Americans need better healthcare; too many black people are in prison; people are being discriminated against because they “look Muslim;” racial profiling is the right idea, white grandmothers aren’t blowing up anything; white grandmothers are blowing up abortion clinics; abortion is murder; women have rights; fetuses aren’t human beings . . . whew.
Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
“Reverse racism” doesn’t happen at near the same rate as “actual” racism – that’s why you don’t hear about it a lot. And as for the different treatment, think of it like this – if you forced me to my knees to climb on a table, is it “special” treatment for you to just lend a hand to pull me up? The actual comic strip I’m referring to is better, but I hope you can get the gist of what I’m saying. White people have had and still have advantages based on the color of their skin. They don’t need any help. You mention minority scholarships. Well, considering just the gap in wealth accumulation that came about due to racism, hopefully you can see how it makes sense to give minority scholarships and not have “white” scholarships. And also, think of this. I remember once a classmate in college complained about the “unfairness” of their being a black student movement group, but not comparable white student movement group. But the campus was 80% white. Why do the white students need a student movement? That’s just piling on.
So, if the NAACP is racist, as you so ignorantly try to equivocate, where were the good white people when that black church got bombed and the girls were killed after Sunday school? One of them could’ve been Condi Rice (she KNEW one of those girls.)
It’s so typical of white people, ones that think like you, to deny their white privilege and then declare themselves the victim. Ignorant people like you will complain about Black History Month while ignoring the other 11 months out of the year. And, besides, February only has 28 days, so why act like a baby.
You’re supposed to be the master race, right? But that crown is slipping down on that pointy head of yours.
“All these BLACK only” organizations? Are you kidding me? You’re complaining about scholarships given to minorities by minority organizations? You people have enjoyed MAJOR advantages from the days of slavery to Reconstruction through the Jim Crow Era and into the 1970’s. Most land-grant universities (public schools) didn’t allow black students wholesale until, oh, about the 1970’s, really. You could go to many of these schools, sure, but in the South, you went with the National Guard and got spit on by your “fellow students” or forced in isolation by yourself up North. Very difficult environment to learn in, and I’d like to see you succeed. But since you’re on here, as a white person, claiming no advantages or privilege, you’re too much of a coward to admit you wouldn’t endure what some minorities have had to in this country’s past that some of you want to go back to.
As for minority admissions to college? Keep in mind that the late 1980’s and early 1990’s were the first black college students to even have a CHANCE at legacy admissions, which was one of the greatest advantages in gaining access to college. Except that someone like you will act as if the previous 200 years where no blacks could gain legacy status didn’t exist.
Even if a black person got a job over you, you’d never even fathom that they got it because they were more qualified. You’d probably sue for “reverse racism.” If you can sue for “reverse racism” then this country club can be sued. Or what are you going to do? Go burn a cross on the black guy’s lawn that “took” your job. You’d sit here and tell some black folks that they don’t have a “right” to go to a swimming pool they paid the directors money to enter, but you’ve got some sort of “right” to a job or a scholarship because you don’t think it’s fair for a black-only organization to give out a measly scholarship? People like you are pathetic. I just with the good white folks out there would start shouting you jerks down.
Yes Phil they MUST take a lawyer with them everywhere they go. Stupid questions get stupid answers.
I didn’t say anything about reverse racism – you are confused with another poster. And just because bubba agrees with the way I analyzed the scenario doesn’t give you the right to “generalize” us and assume we are friends. That displays what little attention you gave to your post. It also perpetuates the bigotry you are speaking out against.
You also show that your not really interested in figuring out why it happened (besides strained racial relations due to slavery and Jim Crow-that’s obvious) rather… you’d prefer to incite an argument and attempt to get off topic by entertaining bubba’s anecdote.
What my OP and subsequent posts have suggested is more than just a contract (because that is one aspect) but also why it occurred. If people are just pointing the blame and getting their panties in a twist then nothing is getting solved. Don’t we want this to STOP this from happening? YES. Sitting around lamenting over it isn’t progressive. Questioning the club and both sets of children and their motives are crucial if we intend on rectifying the situation. Any one can say “oh that’s awful, file a law suit stat!” but that doesn’t teach racists the error of their ways, its give them more ammunition.
Bubba, I appreciate the way you worded your first post, that you “personally feel” scholarships and such for racial minorities are wrong. I wonder have you ever looked for evidence that supports your feeling. You might be surprised to hear that less than 4% of all scholarship money even considers the racial-ethnic background of the applicant and about .25% (that’s one-quarter of 1 percent) is restricted to applicants of color. (If you’re interested, there is a lot more data cited in Tim Wise’s book Affirmative Action.) And I would imagine that many of these scholarships for students of color have been created in just the past few decades, alongside the increase of admissions opportunities – meaning that nothing has been “taken away” from anyone. White college students are entitled to feel any way they want, but the numbers show that they’re equally competitive for 96+% of the money (and it could be added that white students are disproportionately competitive for the remaining money due to systemic inequalities in the education system, a fact that is also heavily documented if you seek it out).
And I just have to say also that I always find it unfortunate when the issue of the original post gets completely lost in the debate. This Philadelphia pool case deserves our attention without veering off into irrelevant tangents such as the idea of reverse racism.
Whats the big deal? If its a private facility they have every right to turn down people for whatever reason, kind of what nightclub do. The real problem was they didn’t mention that in their advertisments.
O’ Lordy Lordy! Why dems crackas be so racist. Deys do nutin’ wong and wees gots ta get in.
siss – I was responding to Bubba.
kstate – that was directed at Phil, not you. My apologies.
If the kids’ check didn’t bounce and they showed up to swim, per the agreement, then…..why weren’t they allowed to swim? Whoever at the club that took the check and deposited it knew how many kids they were talking about. They also knew that the agreement was for 90 minutes per week. I’ve worked swimming pools before, that’s a VERY small block of time for a swimming pool’s use.
You don’t care that the kids didn’t get to swim even though they paid for it, you and Bubba’s only concern here is to be club apologists and look for reasons why they shouldn’t have been admitted even after paying money.
I can guarantee that white people, ones that think like you and Bubba, wouldn’t go to an establishment, pay for admission and then allow any person, let alone a black person, to look you up and down, then think about it for a minute, consult a manager, let alone a black manager, and THEN deny you admission.
Incite an argument you say? You haven’t given one single plausible reason for denying those campers to swim after paid admission was rendered. If the pool was too crowded when the kids arrived, let’s hear some metrics from you (since you’re the club expert) on the dimensions of the pool, how many members were there and what the capacity of the pool was. Crickets chirping, eh, as you scramble for that data: you don’t have it. You haven’t posted it for discussion; therefore, you have no argument.
You want to take the club’s “word” that the pool was too crowded? OK. I’ll grant you that. But the camp directors’ word that they were denied admission unfairly, I guess, since she’s black, her word means nothing on its face.
I’m glad I don’t have neighbors like you and Bubba. It must be a barrel of laughs to live near folks like you.
I would thank Kristen for getting us back on track. Her use of facts and statistics seemed to momentarily stun the posters that were responding on a purely emotional level.
Living in New Orleans I’ve seen the ugliness of both “actual racism” and “reverse racism” (which are both “IGNORANT-FRIGGIN-RACISM”). But I am also very often privileged to see the beauty of people forgetting themselves long enough to celebrate life together and to realize we are all in the same boat. Unfortunately, attempts to have honest discussions about race always devolve into emotional arguements that fuel the flames of distrust and ignorance
We are getting some more damning information on the club that answers questions raised by some here. On the day the Black kids were turned away, a member says the pool was half EMPTY. In addition, the number of kids was NOT the problem because as a local newspapers makes quite clear in the 3rd update “Twelve days before the Creative Steps campers were shown the door … The Valley Club hosted four sixth-grade classes from Rydal East Elementary School in Abington.” Of course all but two in that “crowd” of kids were white. So, No problem.
It’s possible (notice I said POSSIBLE not CERTAIN) this was more a social behavior issue rather than a racial one. Some children, white or black, are extremely rowdy in public and this makes protective parents nervous.
I remember when I belonged to a local YMCA that a bunch of kids entered the pool once from a “family reunion” party. They were WHITE. As a group, they were very loud and rambunctious. They seemed to just “take over” the entire pool not really being cognizant of the other kids. The other kids were intimidated and many left the pool to sit with their parents.
Now, I’m Not Saying this happened in Philadelphia, I’m only saying..none of us were there..we don’t know how the kids behaved. Were they courteous? Were they considerate of other people in the pool? Were they loud?
I’ve seen WHITE kids at the Y where I swim that I still complain about to the lifeguard. They were splashing water so enthusiastically at each other that it was hitting me consistently. They didn’t even look in my direction or notice that I and several other kids were affected. They would throw pool balls in my direction, dive for the balls, and if they bumped into me not say, “Excuse me”. There are Manners to behaving in a public place..Any public place..that holds true for black, white, green or purple kids.
In short, I’d have to have been there to make a judgement. If I saw 60 kids hit the pool like a pack of puppies allowed to run for the first time.. shouting and rowdy and oblivious to other swimmers..yeah.. I might pull my child out also…if my kid was white OR black.
Again, I’m not saying this was the case. I’m just throwing this out there. There are many black kids who swim at the Y I now attend..they are very sweet. Everybody likes them. They are courteous, typical, fun-loving kids. They play with the white kids in a very harmonious manner. They’re not loud, discourteous, oblivious to everything but their own play..they act like they’re part of a group.
Did the black kids in the Philly pool realize there were indeed other kids in the pool before they got there? Or in their child-like enthusiasm just “hit the ground running”, splashing, yelling and throwing toys around totally oblivious of other people? We don’t know..we weren’t there.
Bill Cosby made a speech to the NAACP telling black people in general to conduct yourselves with self respect and whites will respect you! Don’t expect to be accepted into the white world or Any World if you have different behavior standards for yourselves than you expect from others. Cosby told the group if you are rude, play rap music at high decimals driving down the street, use improper English such as using words like “dat”, “she go dere”, “he be den crossin’ dat street when he not spose to”, “he ain’t no right do me like dat…he racist”.
Bill said, “That’s terrible English! I would never speak like that and expect to Not Be Biased Against.” He did not give his fellow blacks non-productive sympathy..he was tough with them. He told them acceptance means good manners, proper English, good work ethics..just like every ethnic group that came to America needed to do. Michelle Obama has Outstanding People Skills…she has won the entire World over with her soft spoken, lovely demeanor. If she talked Hip-Hop, do you really think people would show her the same respect!!!!
Again, I Was Not There..I don’t really know the behavior of the black children..but this issue may Not have been about skin color but about polite social behavior in a public place. God Bless and Thanks For Reading.
PS. I voted for Obama and one of my white son’s best friends was a terrific little black boy named Chris..he was very well-liked in our mostly white neighborhood because he was a great little guy! We just saw him recently, all grown up, attending college with his lovely black fiance. So nobody out in cyber-space call me a racist..my behavior has Not been one of a racist! Total nonsense. I’m simply throwing another angle on this issue.
hey joe, thanks for the update: do you have a link for the info about the other white kids allowed at the club twelve days earlier? I’d like to post that on FB
I have lived in Western PA and in Mississippie.
The south has moved on, but PAians are still living in the past.
Small towns like Indiana, PA and around those parts are worse than the South.
Trust me, PAians are racists. When Sen Muntha said that these PAians are crackers. He knew what he was talking about.
I knew an Indian gugy who was dating this white girl in Western PA when he was in school at IUP.
They were trying to move into a house with other co-ed folks. She was categorically told that she cannot move it because of the brown guy. They told her to her face.
In response to Gloria, thanks for sharing your example, however it seems a but unrelated because as far as I can tell the children in Pennsylvania didn’t even get an opportunity to swim. There were assumptions made and actions taken before any sort of behavior was demonstrated. While any person of any color can act obnoxiously, your example demonstrates some of the privilege awarded to the white kids to act out without consequence. While these children of color were met with a situation of prejudgment.
As far as your plea for the community to refrain from pointing a finger at you with the “R” word, I would urge you to explore your fear and defensiveness. We are engaging in scholarly discussion so as long as you are putting forth well thought out critical observations, we don’t need to get personal in our attacks.
I do urge you to think beyond the fact that knowing and liking one person or one family of color, doesn’t make free someone from problematic notions. One example I give all the time to my students is many men know many women, like women and girls, have relationships with women and girls, but that does not absolve them from sexist notions. I am not sure why, in the race discussion, simply liking or knowing a person of color makes it impossible for a person to have racist notions.
So, if you would like to be taken seriously on that note, I urge you to refrain from mentioning trivial details like that.
Aryan Nations to Open Pa. Outpost
The Associated Press/October 4, 2001
By Nicholas K. Geranios
Spokane, Washington — The white supremacist Aryan Nations want to establish a branch in Pennsylvania where supporters can gather after the loss of the white supremacist group’s Idaho compound.
The new location in Ulysses, Pa., will allow members to “gather and worship without interference of the media and so-called authorities,” August B. Kreis III, the group’s director of information, wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.
Aryan Nations founder Richard Butler, 83, long maintained a 20-acre compound near Hayden Lake, Idaho, that was a home and meeting ground for his followers. He lost a civil rights lawsuit last year, which resulted in a declaration of bankruptcy and the sale of the compound.
Butler has since been living in a home – paid for by a supporter – in nearby Hayden.
“The headquarters will stay here,” Butler said by telephone Wednesday. The Pennsylvania property will be a branch of the group, Butler said.
Ray Redfeairn of Dayton, Ohio, was recently named the group’s new national director and will succeed Butler upon the latter’s death. Redfeairn has said he will move to the Pennsylvania property soon.
The Aryan Nations is part of the so-called Christian Identity movement, whose followers believe white people are the lost tribe of Israel. Members of the movement are anti-Semitic and anti-minority.
It is amazing that the national press has jumped on this issue and has already slapped a “racist” label on the Valley Club, its members and its president without affording Mr. Duesler an equal opportunity to present his or the club’s point of view. This is an shameful smear campaign. If Mr. Duesler would not be afraid to tell it like it it is, this is what you would hear: The Valley Club has rules that were created by its board to maintain the safety of all of its members, including no horseplay and no running in the pool area. Did Mr. Duesler review the rules of the club with Ms. Wright? Should the children be allowed to break all of the club rules, endangering themselves and others while the lifeguards and club members stand idly by afraid to say ANYTHING for fear of being slapped with the “racist” label? Ms. Wright should been more in control of her campers and should have gone over the club rules with them in addition to teaching them the proper way to behave in a public place. She is doing a tremendous diservice to her campers by allowing them to play by a different set of rules and setting up low expectations for their behavior because they are “underpriveleged,” black and hispanic. I don’t know if whether or not the boy who claims to have heard racist comments at the club is telling the truth, but he needs to be taught that it is a very serious offense which he is accusing someone of and that it will have legal ramifications. It is not ok to throw around the word racist because you don’t having to follow the rules that the rest of the world must live by. Teaching young, black “underprivileged” children to use their color to get their way is very dangerous indeed. The sensasionalization of this story will do nothing to help race relations in any way and will only serve to intensify the mistrust between blacks and whites in the community and nationwide. Having been “victim” of reverse racism, I would also like to ask, why is it that nobody came to my defense and why did my story not make national news when I, as a teacher, was repeatedly taunted and called “white-bread bitch” by black students who simply hated me for being white? I said and did nothing racist to them and in fact wanted nothing but to help them succeed in life. Where was the press? Why did the suburband school district, want to handle it in a hush hush way even after the students admitted to it? Why didn’t anybody care that it was reverse-racism and racial intimidation? I still don’t hate black people, but I am more sensitive to reverse discrimination because it’s real- it really happened to me and it’s happening to Mr. Duesler. This man has a family and friends and he’s being smeared. He needs to get a lawyer for himself and his club asap if he doesn’t already have one. By the way, I am from Huntingdon Valley- grew up there and was schooled in the public school system there. If anything, we were taught about the monstrosities of slavery and Jim Crow, the civil rights movement and were indoctrinated with very very liberal ideas by very very liberal teachers. I still keep in touch with former classmates and ALL of them voted for Obama and don’t have a racist bone in their bodies. Many of them work for social services helping the underprivileged or work in inner city schools. So please don’t tell me that all poeple in HV are racists. That’s ridiculous.
That’s all fine and well, but did the camp kids even make it IN the water before the country club kids jumped out? I mean, really.
Kids that are in a swimming pool don’t automatically register that the pool’s “too crowded” or that the other kids getting in are going to harm them. Doesn’t work that way. Unless, of course, the country club parents told their kids to get out or the camp kids showed up with switchblades or something. I think it was the former rather than the latter.
I appreciate the feedback I received. I think this discussion is a very valuable one. I’d like to add that I admit, from personal experience, that I’m sensitive to blacks claiming “Racism!” if they don’t get their way. I’m not saying this was necessarily the case at the swimming pool, but I’ve seen it happen so many times In My Experience that I am very attuned to it.
I am a teacher during the school year, and in the summers I hostess at a restaurant here in town. I have worked with some lovely black hostesses. I have also worked with some black hostesses who celebrated being black in a negative way. They enjoyed talking the black street talk that Bill Cosby ( read my former post) detested. They knew better because they didn’t speak that way to the guests. However, they spoke that way to their fellow employees and To Me.
I’ve heard them say, endless times, if the manager reprimanded them for being late or leaving their post to take a break while the restaurant was slamming busy, “He racist! Dat why he doin’ me lak dat.” OK..so would someone respond to that please? Is poor behavior excusable Because You’re Black? Does Michelle Obama conduct herself like this?
Again, this may well be getting away from the incident at the pool..going beyond it I’ll admit. It’s just that I’ve been spoken rudely to by some blacks who, again, celebrate being “pushy and obnoxious” thinking I’ll not respond to them for fear of being called a racist. They bait white people to observe their response. Is this acceptable?
Once I was at the post office when a tall black man in his late 20’s, covered with tattoos and wearing chains everywhere, addressed me as I put my packages down on a counter he was working at. This was a Big Counter..with plenty of room for both of us. He turned to me and said, “You takin’ up the whole counter!” My intuition told me he was “showing off”. He thought that because I was a middle-aged white lady, I would tremble in my shoes at a large black man reprimanding me. I turned to him and said,” Actually, Sir, I’m not taking up the whole counter. There’s plenty of room for both of us. Do you have a problem with me sharing this counter with you?”
His jaw dropped..literally. He was so surprised that I didn’t cower in fear..and my guess is he’s made a career out of intimidating whites..just to “get even” for..what?..slavery? I didn’t own slaves, my family never owned slaves, my grandfather came to this country from Italy in 1896. He worked his butt off to make a living while learning English. He was never given anything for free. He knew he had to play by the rules if he expected to make it.
And, yeah, he was called a wop and a guinea and was the victim of cruel jokes about “Eye-talians”. Still..our family persevered. We valued education, maintained an attitude of conducting ourselves like ladies and gentlemen in public places, do not go around talking like Tony Soprano just to get even with a few people who called us wops. If you want to Move Forward in America..ya gotta..well..Move Forward! To Rosalind who claims I’m “fearful and defensive”..I’m not fearful Rosalind..but yeah..I’m defensive..my family paid their dues and they did it by maintaing high standards of behavior Even Though We Took Our Hard Knocks. Why should I bow down to aggressive black people? If they are kind to me, I am reciprocally kind to them. If they bait me merely because I’m white, and because they think they can always play the “Race Card” if I respond..yeah..I’m defensive. And I’ll stand up for myself. Period!
I would appreciate any responses. Your responses are valuable to me and I really do contemplate over whatever you personally feel in regard to what I’ve said. Thanks and God Bless.
You’ve brought up Bill Cosby a couple of times. Seems to me a certain ilk of white folks rather lustily enjoyed some of the things he said. Glad he entertained you.
Would it shock you to know that Dr. Huxtable’s daughter was on drugs? Probably. You were too busy enjoying him browbeat “low-class” black folks. He’s got his own skeletons to deal with.
How’d I know that Cosby had issues? Why because all low-class, middle class and upper-class blacks know each other, of course. (Kidding, kidding.) There’s a nice book about it that you can go find and read. It’s all there in black and white, so to speak.
Bill Cosby was a great TV dad. In real life? Even with all that money, he had his blind spots as all people of all creeds sometimes do. If I were you, I wouldn’t lean on his comments at the Brown v. Board 50th anniversary as the linchpin to a discussion on race. I’m just saying. You bring up Bill Cosby to even the black folks you find acceptable and you aren’t necessarily going to get nodding heads in agreement with you. We aren’t a monolith any less than you are.
Sorry that the black dude crowded your space at the post office.
Hi Phil. Thank you for your comments. And I really mean this..I’m not being sarcastic.
Here’s the issue..as I see it..there is a segment of the black population that revel in being “low class”..they romanticize it in rap music, their speech with each other, their attitude toward whites. They bait the entire population with an attitude: “Go ahead. Disagree with me. You’ll be sorry cause I’ll play the racist card and/or intimidate you and you’ll have to accept it Cause I’m Black!”
Do you disagree with this statement? Bill Cosby addressed this as a true scar to the black community. Nope..I didn’t know Bill had a daughter on drugs. However, DOES THIS FACT INVALIDATE WHAT HE SAID ABOUT SOME BLACKS PROUDLY AND DEFIANTLY CONTINUING TO SPEAK POOR ENGLISH WHEN THE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS IN EVERY PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACH PROPER ENGLISH? DOES THIS FACT MAKE HIS COMMENT ABOUT HOW HE WOULD NEVER TALK THIS WAY AND EXPECT TO “GET AHEAD” STUPID? ARE YOU DEFENDING THE ENTIRE BLACK POPULATION JUST BECAUSE THEY’RE BLACK, REGARDLESS OF THEIR DEMEANOR AND THEY WAY THEY TREAT OTHER PEOPLE?
Plus, the “black dude” didn’t crowd my space. If you read my comment carefully, He said I was crowding His space. And I never refered to him as a “black dude”..that was your moniker for him.
I would never defend All Italian-Americans. How could I possibly? So, why are you defending all blacks?
PS: I teach the book Warriors Don’t Cry written by one of the first black students to attend a white high school after the famous Brown vs Board of Education decision about educational integration. I Teach students how cruel it was for whites to make this little girl’s experience as miserable as possible..just because she wanted an education that was truly equal to the one offered the white kids in Little Rock, Arkansas in 1957. The author is Melba Pattillo Beals and She Wanted to be educated. She suffered terribly so all blacks could get a good education. Do you think she approves of the segment of blacks who scoff at education and actually revel in being aggressively uneducated? Would they suffer to receive a good education like Melba did? Melba was an example to all blacks. She was a heroic woman.
Gloria, you need to keep the relatively minor problem of those modest numbers of black children or adults who “scoff at education” in perspective. The lack of educational achievement for many children of color is not because parents and children of color are not supportive of education, an incorrect and racially stereotyped view often argued by many whites to explain persisting racial differences in educational outcomes. One recent Department of Education report showed that 94 percent of black parents checked on their children having completed homework, as compared to some 82 percent of white parents. In surveys and other studies the overwhelming majority of parents of color reveal themselves to be strongly committed to better educations for their children. Indeed, today the overwhelming majority of students of color have strongly internalized the value of more education, such as going to college beyond high school. Surveys and in-depth studies show that. Systemic racism creates much of the schooling issue you raise.
Moreover, many students of color just do not have the economic means to attend any type of college—or even if they make it into college, to stay in for four years—because of the negative impacts on their families from both past and present racial barriers.
This is no such thing as proper English.
How did the manager talk to the white employees who showed up and late or took a break during busy hours? Did he speak to them the same way he spoke to the black hostesses? With the same tone and manner?
Are you sure you weren’t taking up more than your share of the counter?
Your family has benefitted from being able to assimilate. Your great-grandfather had access to jobs not offered to blacks, pay not given to blacks, and probably a host of other things including better financial services and not being subject to neo-slavery. An accurate study of history and assessment of current issue will show that many blacks do succeed and this despite racism.
Loud, pushy and obnoxious? I don’t think that’s limited to any particular ethnic group or another. But if we are going to pretend that it is, Sicilian Italians have quite a repuations. In fact, most poor whites have a reputation for being loud and obnoxious regardless of ethnic background. Being loud, pushy, and obnoxious isn’t a “black” thing.
When it comes to thinking we can scare why people with our blackness – We can and often do without even trying or noticing. And the truth of the matter is, if we’re going to talk about differences in gender, white women don’t have to do as much convincing before their complaints are taken seriously. We play the “angry black woman” when nothing else has worked.
I agree with Joe.
Being an educator doesn’t make you immune from either racism or not being aware of the facts, otherwise known as ignorance. Take the word “ignorant” for it’s true meaning – you do not know what you’re talking about. I mean, do you really think all white Americans value education? Each and every single one?
Sandy Darity, Karolyn Tyson, and others have studied high-achieving black children, and found that those in predominantly black schools in NC rarely get abnormal levels of anti-education flak from other black students. It is true that many white and black adolescents in US high schools are often not too keen on high achievers, but this is not a distinctive “black thing.” http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2004/10/achievement_1004.html (Why is this study not on front pages of newspapers?)
However, in predominantly white schools the few high-achieving children there do get more negative (“acting white”) commentary from the few other black students when the former do a lot of associating with white kids (as they must in predominantly white-schools’ almost all white “higher tracks”). No surprise there?
And apparently very few black students in either setting have let the comments have a signifciant effect on their educational achievements.
By the way, being kidded or even modestly mocked for high educational achievement is not new, or just a “black problem.” Adolescents, regardless of race, sometimes do this everywhere. It is true for all all-white high schools now, and it was true when I went to all-white Lamar High school in Houston in 1956! You get kidded, but I have yet to meet a high-achieving student who was stopped by it, of any color.
“Acting white” is yet another phrase that is often widely circulated by many white analysts and a few conservatives of color to play down the systemic racism that is the foundation of US education systems. It is intentionally designed to take our focus off the real problem of systemic white racism–that is what really limits education opportunies, and job opportunities, in this country. Change that systemic reality dramatically, and you get rid of the problem of “race” in education.
Where are you people from? Well I live in the city of Philadelphia and I see the destruction these people (mostly black and latino) leave behind first hand. Most of my family is from north Philadelphia and I’ve seen old pictures (black and white pictures) of how nice and clean it was and with (as I was told) little crime in the area. Since then my entire family has moved to far northeast philadelphia or outside of the city where it’s mostly white . Why? I’ll give you a few good reasons. Better schools, cleaner,safer,less drugs,more polite people,less cars with loud anoying radios playing the words Fuck ,dick sucking, banging bitches ect ect. ect.
Why would I want to subject my kids or even chance subjecting my kids to this kind of people? I have some black freinds and white freinds ,even my freindly neihbors are latino but these are the rare few that are decent and do you know why they moved away from the city? Yea you guessed it because they don’t want to deal with the real niggers and spics and white trash this city breeds and they are minorities themselves.
Up until about 10 years ago my parents never even locked there doors at night but even the good neihborhoods are changing. Why? You guessed it because the minorities are moving in our mostly white neiborhood. I challenge any of you people to ride around our so called great city and watch what color is walking down the street and what that peticular neiborhood looks like. Take a tour of our jails they are 95% black and latino. Why is that? Was I born predjudice? Of coarse not. I was made predjudice because of real experience with this type of people we all call niggers.
@philly – The jails are more than 50% black and latino because of systemic racism.
Would it be fair to enstate some sort of rule, however informal, that white people, and everybody else but especially white people, read up on facts and history before entering a conversation on race?
@Joe (the professor) – I think “acting white” is an indictment of our educational system. It is white, and to achieve, in some ways you do have to act white. The history taught is Eurocentric. The literature is Eurocentric. Things that are culturally black are degraded. In a sense, our education system teaches kids that white is “right” and black is wrong. Plus, when kids do what, they’re questioning the person’s loyalty to the race. They’re accusing the achieving student of believing that white is right and black, and therefore themselves, is wrong. So, it’s more about race politics than about academic achievement.
Thank you for your comments. I guess the real issue here is whether America is a country that today, in 2009, practices, as you wrote “systematic white racism”. You truly believe that America, as a whole, treats their black citizens differently than their whites. You truly believe that blacks, today, in the United States of America, “have limited education opportunities, and job opportunities”. You truly believe that American blacks are treated in a sub-standard fashion from the average American.
I don’t see this actually. I’m just going by my own personal observation. I think 60 years ago (I’m the teacher who teaches kids the book written by the black girl who was one of the first black children to go to an all-white school in Arkansas in 1957) you could have said that.
Today, I honestly fail to see America as a nation that systematically practices “white racism”.I’ve seen tremendous strides made by blacks in America because our government passed numerable Civil Rights laws, instituted many educational programs to help under-privileged children, passed laws forbidding employers to discriminate on the basis of race, urged colleges to fill quotas for in-coming students with a balance of black and white, given scholarships to thousands of black students who couldn’t otherwise afford to attend college. But..I guess that just doesn’t count.
You think America elected a black man to be their president because America practices “systematic white racism”? Sorry, I still don’t accept this. I truly don’t know how Obama got elected by a bunch of white supremicists. I don’t understand why Michelle Obama is so well thought of and loved if this is a country full of white supremicists. I can’t understand why Michael Jackson is mourned all over America by blacks and whites if this is a country of white supremicists. I don’t understand how a black man like Michael Jackson became a multi-millionaire in a country full of white supremicists.
You truly believe the United States of America is full of horrible white supremicists who systematically practice white racism each and every day? Any black or white American who truly believes that is simply crippling themselves. Don’t try to improve..just tell yourself you can’t and be done with it? It’s all about white racism..your individual efforts to improve yourself don’t count?
Gosh..maybe that’s why Oprah Winfrey is one of the wealthiest women in the Entire World..cause she is a black talk show host in a country of horrible white supremicists who tune in and listen to her every day. All those white sponsors and station managers and broadcast companies conspired to “keep Oprah in her place”? And that’s why she’s worth 300 million dollars? I disagree with you Joe. I don’t think America practices systematic white racism. But, again, I appreciate you responding to my comments.
To Gloria, you seem very open to learning and feedback. These discussions can become quite emotional. This emotion surrounding race and racism is explained and theorized in Joe’s most recent book, the White Racial Frame. You ask some excellent questions about Joe’s “beliefs” and what I would suggest that might be quite helpful in your search for some of these answers you seek, would be to look at another book with much historical data Racist America. That books provides evidence of the systemic racism of which many of the posters discuss. Instead of personal vignettes (which are still quite valuable) there is hard facts of the history of racism and how it operates in this country. I think it will be quite beneficial to you. While there are certainly African Americans who now occupy positions of economic and political power, some of these academic readings can explain how these things are still quite possible in a racist society. Again, I like to use gender as an example to show power relations. Many women have benefited from the civil rights movement, but there is still very apparent sexism. Women who are supreme court justices, senators, millionaire entrepreneurs, but there are still SYSTEMS and systemic sexism that prevails. Why would it be different for race? Similarly systems of classism and homophobia, while things can be less violent and blatantly oppressive, the truth is oppression persists. However, it seems with race that people (of all colors) work so hard psychological to deny its existence. Examples of success, while great (Obama, Oprah) do not mean that systems of oppression have been abolished. If Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin won the election, would that mean sexism was dead? I think you know the answer to that.
The Jails are 95% black and Latino because the city is 70% minority now.
Would it be fair to enstate some sort of rule, however informal, that white people, and everybody else but especially white people, read up on facts and history before entering a conversation on race?
Until you see it first hand like I have then you will be truly educated on the facts and history. I come from a American Indian backround and can give a rats ass about what people did 100 years ago. I don’t exspect to be treated any different then any other. The way I see it the blacks and other minorities use history as a crutch to get by the easy way and get everything handed to them. Ever here of reverse discrimination? It goes on every day but no one says anything about it. Know why you never see a bunch of white people wanting to go to a black neiborhood and go swimming? Do the words robbed,beaten,threatened,rude mean anything to you?
Like I said until you lived in this shithole (black governed) city and exsperienced a real so called nigger or spic you have no idea what you are talking about.
Ask one of your southern black friends who visited our great arm-pit city and they will tell you “those nigga’s are nasty”). At least thats what they say to me when I visit down there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhsx9bjLiu0&feature=response_watch for more information about the township where this incident occured
Joe from Philly, you are not alone in your beliefs, I’ve done research on Asian Americans (including South, East, Southeast Asian, and Pacific Islanders) who adopt the stereotypes about people of color and whites. This really isn’t about whether you CARE about what happened 100 years ago, but about the reality of how are history affects TODAY. I’m certainly not insisting that all whites read up on history to engage the conversation. Gloria kept asking for feedback and information, so I was obliging her. If that struck a chord for you personally to reply to that, then that’s your own thing that I was not addressing. I’m simply saying that all people have very little understanding of social systems, that’s exactly how HEGEMONY works, where the status quo becomes the common sense. That is the position you are taking, your common sense. If you want to believe all that you have been taught, then so be it. I’m suggesting to people who are open to learning to re-evaluate their knowledge systems. If that’s not you, then continue to parrot and spew the things you have learned over your life course, which you so skillfully have already demonstrated.
Gloria said: “I don’t think America practices systematic white racism.”
When did America completely undo past practices of systematic [white] racism (which requires more than just ‘stopping’ or ending such past practices)?
For example, one systematic/institutional racist practice was denying African-Americans the opportunity to attend most colleges and universities. That practice, of course, hardly exist any more but, while there is all kinds of outrage over affirmative action, a White [elite] advantaging legacy system remains in place — a virtual systematic/institutional hold-over from an admittedly racist past.
While that’s not even the kind of example I wanted to point out, it does show how at odds your view is with the reality and how easy it is to demonstrate systematic racism.
Both the U.S. Senate and House have apologized for slavery and Jim Crow but the kind of reparations that would undo the kind of social advantage Whites gained at the expense of African-Americans or the kind of reparations that would compensate African-Americans for the material losses/damages they collectively incurred… well, those are “divisive” issues that America has never dealt with. Never.
That kind of denial of reparations/compensation has been systematic from Reconstruction to the present day.
Beyond that, perhaps the biggest source of racial inequality exists as a result of systematic racism in the housing markets. And, yes, housing discrimination remains an example of on-going systematic racism. More importantly, it is evidence of racial wrongs never undone/corrected/compensated for.
One can argue that the kind of restrictive covenants Levittown represented have been outlawed but the mere passing laws (and poorly enforced laws at that) didn’t undo the inequality set in place by those racist policies of yesteryear. White families that were favored by those policies continue to be so favored because of the nature of the housing markets. Up until the current economic crisis, those houses that racism built were a constant source of increasing wealth for White suburbanites blessed by the nation’s racist, White favoring policies of yesteryear.
That kind of racist wealth inequality was never undone which, by definition, means the systematic racist policies remain in place, in the practiced, lived reality-effect, if not in fact.
Gloria, I write from 45 years of research on systemic and everyday racism in US society. My colleagues and I have done more than 40 studies in the field on racial discrimination issues, and on the ways white, black, Latino and Asian Americans experience our racialized system. We have interviewed more than a thousand black Americans and more than 400 white Americans, just as an example.
There are literally hundreds of research studies that show there is still quite widespread discrimination against all these Americans of color, most especially black Americans.
I suggest that if you are really interested in intellectual liberation on these difficult issues, that you make some effort to learn about this extensive research, and think on it. One thing this society does well is to hide its racist reality, so to become educated you have to probe deeply into that reality.
The books Rosalind mentions are a good start, where I review much of this social science research on racism. Also, see my book Systemic Racism (Routledge 2006). (I have 55 others too) I would welcome discussion of the data and research in these data-oriented books with anyone who wants to learn how this society really operates as a systemically racist society..
I got to the view I have, as I said from 4.5 decades of extensive field and library research. I started out as a southern segregationist some 50 years ago now , and it was the many social science data/research studies that got me to understand rather deeply now just how this society really works in regard to both systemic racism, sexism, and classism. Do keep asking questions, but also read the research studies in some detail.
To Rosalind and Joe: you both seem like really nice people..I know that sounds trite..but you do.
There is nothing wrong, however, in giving personal anecdotal experiences their due. Joe From Philly is an eye witness to the depravity rampant in Some Black Neighborhoods. He’s been personally affected by it. Then Rosalind tells him to basically read a book and educate himself instead of trusting his own visceral observations. She tells him he is parroting things he’s heard. No He’s Not! These feelings are his own..garnered through personal experience. He’s not parroting anybody Rosalind. He’s got eyes..he can see for himself.
Plus, nobody answered my question about Melba Beals, one of the first white teenagers to receive an integrated education in America. My question was, is the behavior of this segment of the black population (defying education, listening to rap music that challenges Every type of authority figure including respect for women) something Melba would have respected? Just answer yes or no. Go by your gut here. Don’t hide in an ivory tower. Just use simple common sense.
There is nothing wrong with Joe From Philly’s hands-on observations. I already related some of my personal experiences. Also, Joe, in regard to those statistics you study..aren’t many of them based on Personal Very Real experiences? That’s how these numbers are compiled..let’s be real here. I have to read a Doctoral Thesis to verify if what I’ve observed and felt and experienced is real or not? Baloney.
Speaking of personal experience..my father ran a retail store in Buffalo,New York for 40 years. During the “race riot” era of the 1960’s there was a group of black teenagers terrorizing the downtown area where his store was. One day, they walked into my dad’s store. He heard one of them say, “You’re in trouble whitey.” My dad was scared to death. They then started throwing merchandise around the store. My dad told them to leave and they just laughed. It was “Pay Back for Slavery Day” in Buffalo..and guess who had to pay the bill? Yeah..this little Italian guy who never did so much as a beetle any harm his entire life.
My dad told them to take all the merchandise they wanted, if they’d just leave the store. They broke some items, took some items with them, and luckily left after that. My dad was a good man. He said he was so scared after what happened that he went in the back room of the store and threw up. He reported the incident to the police and closed the store for the day. From then on, he kept a gun under the cash register. So, just another one of my “biased” anecdotes. I guess I’ll have to read one of Joe’s books so I can “make an intelligent judgment” about what happened. I already know what happened Joe! A bunch of black teenagers held up my dad!
In summation: I know many lovely black people. Funny..I never hear them yell racist! They just go about their business of working hard, getting an education, and being good friends and nice people. Then there’s another element of blacks who..Yup, that’s correct!..I don’t want to associate with. They walk around with a huge chip on their shoulder just “hunting” for a tiny scrap of evidence that any white man within 50 yards of them is Racist. They work below par. They don’t value education. They account for the largest ethnic group that commits crimes in the city I live in.
Maybe They should educate themselves huh? I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if They read a book or two? That would be a surprise.
Thanks, I am sure you are quite nice as well. I do think my point is still being quite missed. Common sense is not quite what it seems. That’s my point. Our reality is very valid, I acknowledge that fully. I’m not saying that anyone’s reality is wrong. What I am saying is that our common sense does not come from out of nowhere. We are social beings, who have been influenced by our circumstances and surroundings. For example, we start to be gender socialized before we even come out of the womb. Many parents prepare the baby room in a gendered fashion if they find out the sex of the baby through ultrasound. Socialization begins to shape these experiences. There is no gene given to girls that they must like pink, or dolls, etc, it’s a socialized process. Some girls resist or have families that don’t impress upon them as rigidly, but the point is that things that are seen as feminine or masculine become “common sense.” All I am urging with these suggestions whether you read or book or not about it, is that all of these things are constructed and made up. So, racial characteristics and personalities and stereotypes are all constructed. That’s all, quest things. People in positions of power create a logic or knowledge system, so that’s all, question it. I’m not going to make sweeping generalizations about any race being one way or another, these are all constructions that serve those in power. I hope that makes more sense. Again, I’m discounting anyone’s experience, just urging people to question how things come to be. There is a social reality with issues of educational inequality, racial disparity in crime, as sociologists, which some of the posters happen to be, is to examine why these trends exist based on social factors, not because individuals or groups are innately more prone to them or that their culture has different values. At this point I don’t know if the conversation will go much farther is the larger examination can’t be made. I’ve reiterated that there is nothing wrong with anecdotal examples, I do qualitative work so I am always listening to narratives and value all of them. It just wouldn’t be fair for me to create a theory based on one persons. Collecting many stories to compile a larger trend seems like a more fair representation of the big picture.
In terms of the Melba Beals question, in your first post mentioning her you say she was black and in the second, you say she was a white teenager so I became a bit confused. In response about education, I just get confused about this sweeping notion about African Americans not valuing education. I actually have seen many surveys showing the opposite, that African Americans value education as much as other racial groups. Here is some stuff from the US Department of Education and a link to a Journal of Black education that has much more:
• Percentage of all white parents in 2007 who reported they checked that their children had completed their homework: 82%
Percentage of all black parents in 2007 who reported they checked that their children had completed their homework: 94%
(U.S. Department of Education)
• Percentage of all white American students who started either a two-year or four-year college in 2004 who by 2006 had not earned a degree and were not still enrolled in higher education: 31.2%
• Percentage of all African-American students who started either a two-year or four-year college in 2004 who by 2006 had not earned a degree and were not still enrolled in higher education: 43.4%
(U.S. Department of Education)
• Percentage of white first-year college students in 2004 who said they often talked with faculty members outside of class about academic matters: 12.0%
• Percentage of black first-year college students in 2004 who said they often talked with faculty members outside of class about academic matters: 20.8%
(U.S. Department of Education)
This is example of when we have anecdotal evidence that may not reflect the larger picture. I think that someone like Melba, or anyone who sacrifices themselves for a social justice cause would be sad to see their efforts derailed. Kenneth Clark, the African American doctor that did the doll study that was so imperative for the Brown v. Board of Education case was very disheartened at the end of his life that his work did not solve the issues of racial inequality. However, the issues of inequality in education are more about the enforcement, or lack thereof after the decision and not addressing the actual issues or racism. Again, many people have expressed these sentiments in many different ways, scholarly, and outside of scholarship.
There is nothing wrong, however, in giving personal anecdotal experiences their due.
So, then, what weight do you give to the personal experiences of Black people and other people of color whose personal experiences are affirmed by the research Dr. Feagin refers to?
And why are you privileging the anecdotes of Joe-From-Philly while disparaging the personal experiences of that “element of blacks” who “walk around with a huge chip on their shoulder”, according to you… not them, but you… as if there is something about their personal experience that makes whatever “tiny scrap of evidence” — i.e. an admission by you that the evidence exists — that someone White is racist is somehow contrary to something that’s true and real?
Simply, you can’t try to esteem personal experience and an individual’s lens by which they interpret their experience as reliable, trustworthy information while at the same time denying that personal experience and the interpretation of that experience, etc. is wrong, flawed, etc. when it doesn’t align with how you see the world.
So, obviously, this isn’t about the value placed on personal experience vs. research/data found in books. It’s clear you have a problem with certain types of personal experiences/interpretations of personal experiences.
What’s funny though is how you’re arguing against the need to EDUCATE YOURSELF so you can “make an intelligent judgment” — anti-intellectualism by any other name — while at the same time talking about another ethnic group (or, rather a certain element of the group you admit you don’t associate with but happen to know so much about… hmmm) that, according to you, “don’t value education.”
Only in America.
To Rosalind: Melba was a black teenager. She was one of the first blacks to participate in the integration for schools program in Arkansas as a result of the Brown v. Board of Education ruling. I made a typo calling her a white teenager.
Thanks for answering my question regarding Melba. I think she would have been saddened to see her efforts derailed also. The question is who derailed her efforts? Was it the segment of the black population who discounts education, or the whites?
You certainly sound like an extremely well-educated and articulate person. I also think you are very optimistic and kind-hearted.
The French Revolution was justified in many ways. The serfs were starving while the aristocracy ground them into the dirt and squeezed the life out of them. However, after the “Republic” came into power, some of those very people who experienced such monstrous treatment became monsters themselves. They beheaded everything that was even remotely connected with the ruling class. A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens illustrates this aspect of human nature in some situations. The terrorized become the tyrants. They “will have their revenge” even at the cost of their own souls. It never ends. No reparations are ever enough. When is it enough?
Abraham Lincoln faced a congress, after the Civil War, who continued to battle with each other. He asked sadly, “Haven’t we seen enough blood?” The blacks in America who want to succeed do succeed. They work hard and persevere and they do very well. The ones who are looking for excuses certainly have no shortage of them. Any ethnic group can do this, by the way.
To Nquest: Would you please explain to me how America is supposed to “make reparations” to blacks for slavery? The blacks in today’s America are not enslaved. Do you mean to tell me blacks are supposed to take My Tax Dollars because their great great grandmother was a slave and I am supposed to compensate them for that?
OK..then I would like to be compensated by our government because my grandfather, a simple uneducated Italian man, could only find a job in America as a gardner in 1906. The United States government needs to compensate me for earnings lost by my grandfather just because he couldn’t speak English. Plus, he served America during WWII. I want compensation for that too! He didn’t work while in the army in France. Therefore, he lost wages, and therefore his progeny (that being me) should be compensated.
PS. Another Typo: My grandfather served during WWI. That’s the war I want compensation for.
I’ve met Melba. . . or her sister. One of them. Cool lady.
Imagine, Gloria, you or Joe being a loan officer, or a police officer, or a jury, or a store clerk, or principal, etc and so on, do you both suggest that you’ll look at each individual and treat them fairly? What usually happens is that folks like you two, with otherwise good intentions, don’t think black parents care as much as white parents and so they don’t put black students in their proper academic track. Or, they don’t think a black couple would be as responsible as a white couple, so they charge them a little more for a mortgage – despite having the same downpayment, collateral, income, and credit rating. I could go on, but I’m sure you get my gist.
The problem Philly sites isn’t about race. It’s about class. Have you never seen or heard of trailor parks? It’s not like you can pile up a bunch of poor whites together and everything will be hunky dory. Er, the real “hunky dory,” not trying to be slick.
Here’s my personal opinion. Why should anyone, including white people, trust a white person’s view on race or racism? The system benefits you. You don’t experience the systemic barriors. So how would you know? I’ve been followed, talked down to, dismissed, etc and so on just because I’m black. Luckily, I have a medium-small frame and light skin and a baby-face, so I don’t get as much as others. I can also sound white over the phone, and I can tell you, there’s a difference.
Hey, listen. My mom was a teacher. On teacher work days or at sporting events, my first experiences with white people including smiles and cooing and candy. Great stuff. I actually thought some people were brown (African American) and some people pink (white) and everybody was just people until about kindergarten. When I transferred middle schools, the first person to act like she knew, though she didn’t, was a white girl. We became friends and even roomed together our first year in college. So I don’t come to this from a “down with whitey” place. I’ve just read and studied and researched. Systemic pro-white racism exists in this country. Period.
What’s odd is that white people, online and in real life, make all these arguments that this country isn’t racist and blah, blah, blah, “I have black friends.” Then when you get them behind closed doors, or start asking deeper questions, or just have them keep track of everytime a friend or family member makes a racist comment, you get reems and reems of stories of racism. Odd.
According to a study done by Eduardo Bonilla (?), people who white college students call friend, black college students call aquaintances. We don’t mean the same thing when we say friend.
John McCain won the white vote, so white folks should stop congratulating themselves for their colorblindness. Plus, black people have been in this country since it’s founding; it was founded on our backs; and we’re just now getting a black president? One who is bi-racial, very light-skinned, “articulate and clean,” and who admonished the black community for our failures in fatherhood when 1) black father who aren’t in the home spend a lot more time with their kids then other father who aren’t in the home, and 2) he didn’t admonish anyone else. Obama even cut off his afro to look more acceptable. He was clearly the most intelligent candidate. The other candidate was running on “Let’s keep doing what the last white guy did the screwed the country.” So, Obama wins. But he didn’t win the white vote. And you want a cookie?
I agree with Rosalind. There’s no big problem with asking questions. But if you already have your answer, and insist that you’re right even though studies show you’re wrong; then ask yourself, are you really hoping to expand your knowledge . . . or just confirm the lies you already know? Do you really want to be anti-racist, or do you just like thinking that you are?
What I find amusing is that every comment that has been written, thus, far has been about white verses black..Let’s hit the rewind button…..We as HUMAN beings have HUMAN rights…In other words, EVERYBODY should be treated with respect, regardless of the color of their skin..And, as far as minority’s, I am a single WHITE parent that is struggling to get her son through college…NO hand outs here, but college loans. HINT!!!The problem that I am having with all this racist garbage being flung around is that those little children from the camp were probably very excited about going to a big pool, and then they were told that they were not good enough because of their color, which in reality, hurt their feelings..Shame on the members of that swim club, and shame on the parent’s for not teaching their children mutual respect for another human being.. The club should had made an announcement about contracting out to local camps, due to the lack of participation from it’s “private members” to keep the pool open for EVERYBODY!!! People in general need to get a grip and understand that we may be all different shapes, sizes, and colors, but what ties us all together are our feelings..
I truly feel bad for those kids who were rejected. I am certain that they were really hurt and disappointed…What really gets too me is that they were not disappointed with the kids at the club, but the behavior of the adults that were at the club..Racist breeds prejudice, and prejudice breeds hate, and hate causes conflict, and the conflict needs to stop. Teach your children better you are their example and they are our future…And, this comment goes out to whites blacks, yellows, and reds, Open your mind and you will open your heart..Love, Light, Peace, and Hope.:)
So..you’ve met Melba..and your response is “So what?”
Wow..the arrogance! I defended and applauded Melba. I mentioned earlier I teach the autobiography she wrote in my classes. I want my students to understand the tremendous struggle black people went through to merely achieve an equal education as white people.And you roomed with a white girl in college? And you still dismiss Melba with “So what!”
I also agree with you that this issue I address is about class at a deeper level. It’s true. However, I still wouldn’t walk through a crime-ridden black neighborhood at midnight whistling a happy tune. Would you? And the point I’ve tryed to make all along on this site is that regardless of “studies and statistics”..I will treat people in accordance with how they treat me. If a black person is kind and friendly (like the black family who’ve lived two houses down from me for 20 Years!) I am kind and friendly in return. If they exhibit reverse racism toward me (like the black teenagers who held up my father’s store and said “you’re in trouble whitey” to him..did you not read my comment in which I told that story?) then I will avoid them. Why in God’s name would I stand in front of a moving train? Huh?
I’m not going to let anybody who hates me from the get-go step on my face. I’m not advocating racism, I’m merely protecting myself. And I’d do it if the person who was cruel to me was green, yellow, blue, purple,lived in a trailer park, a hollowed out tree, or a mansion in the clouds.
With your mother being a teacher, sounds to me like you’ve had many advantages that many blacks haven’t had. And you’re still bitter? Cause you sound bitter. And please don’t tell me what “people like me” would do in given circumstances. You have no idea what “people like me” would do in Any Circumstances.
And that thing about “studies” have shown that whites who call blacks “friends” are called “aquaintances” by the blacks themselves. You are digging here Sir. Pulling out all the stops in Your Reverse Racism. Appreciate that you live in a great country and work hard to achieve your goals. Sounds like an intelligent man like yourself wouldn’t have any problem doing that. Thanks for Reading and God Bless!
First, my “so what” was in response to what point Melba had on the conversation. Not that I met her.
I didn’t say you should camping out for concert tickets in south central.
Bitter? You’re hilarious!
But you’re just as I suspected. You don’t really wanna change the status quo, you just wanna feel good about it. If it helps you “love America,” you can call me any name you like. But you have really studied US racial history? Again and again and again, white Americans just can’t accept a black person who rejects the status quo, be it slavery or neo-slavery and segregation or today’s “colorblind” racism, which you seem to want to perpetrate. So long as there is injustice for my people, and any other group, just because of their color of their skin, I’ll be “bitter” and probably give myself a cookie for it, too!
Slow down, Gloria. I said people like you. Not you in particular. For the record, I meant a healthy enough number of everyday, average white people who don’t “hate” black people but still charge more for loans, follow us in stores, place our children in academic tracks beneath their demonstrated academic prowess, don’t offer us jobs/promotions/raises that we clearly qualify for, etc and so on. Any generic white person fits the bill. Sorry if you don’t like being “typical,” but you are.
And shouldn’t I be bitter that not all black people have had some of the advantages I have just because their parents weren’t teachers?
Please, read some studies and research about the racism black people and other people of color face before you decide who should or shouldn’t be bitter. And especially before you start commenting on “reverse” discrimination.
THANK YOU MOM FOR GETTING BACK ONTO TOPIC. I know these comments can be over-run by andecotal commentary or straying off topic (from which I am guilty of both) but come ON.
Plus, most of what is being said is speculation. We dont know what happened until the authorities release official statements from members, members children, camp children, camp parents. We need to be asking questions about what happen but not creating stories about a situation in which WE WERE NOT PRESENT. Period. *steps off soapbox*
Poor ,poor kids. I don’t feel that sorry them. I’m gonna tell you why they needed to use that pool in another neiborhood. 1. 1/3 of the public pools in this city are closed thanks to our poor economy. I must add the ones that were opened (95%) of them were in black neiborhoods ,thanks to our mostly black governed city.
2. Why swim in a pool that needs constant police survalance with cops on the grass to make sure a huge fight don’t break out.
3. Theres less drug dealing in pools up in the Northeast Philly and suburbs.
4.You don’t have to worry about a drive by shooting by kids that are just a few years older then the poor kids you see on T.V.
I think you get the idea.
What I see here is a couple of educated blacks and whites that are getting there information in books or studies done in the wrong places in our country.
Go to and big city and do a long term study. Was my family all born racist? Did they move away because people were black or latino? MAbe the “class’ statement someone made has a little to do with it. Did you ever here the term “there goes the neiborhood”? Well I have to tell you I see blacks everyday with nice cars and clothes, ect. ect. ect. that still don’t respect other people in a movie theater,throw trash on the ground like it’s where it belongs, sit in a restraunt being loud , cursing and holering. Do I see whites doing it to? yes a small percantage of them that were taught no better have no class and there parents talk just like …….. a nigger.
Soon all our great cities will be all boarded up houses if this continues. Mabe by then the the white people in the suburbs will have moved even father away and the plague that haunts our inner city will move in there old houses and hopefully not destroy that neiborhood too.
Put your books down and tell me what you see people.
I am surprised at you. You seem to be a committed teacher, but also resistant to the suggestion being made here that you read up a bit on some research. As a professor and graduate student myself, I know that the deepest learning occurs when a person seeks out new information and evaluates it in light of her prior knowledge and perspective. You seem like a person who’s interested in thinking and talking about race, so why be resistant to learning new things?
Did you explore this site further? I think that many people come here and don’t realize that this site was created by antiracist social science scholars. This discussions here are for sharing new research and analyzing current events in an accessible, yet scholarly, mode.
Can someone tell me, is there a protocol for hate speech on this site? I believe that Joe from philly has crossed the line with his casual use of offensive words. Two thumbs down from me.
Oh?! We can “thumbs down” people? Philly’s getting 2 thumbs down here, too.
Obviously, you are prime example of what I’m talking about..It’s not to late to change..And, speaking about change if you want to solve the worlds problems you can start by solving your own…Nothing can be done about”drive bys” and fights, but there can be something done in how we teach our children about respecting another person’s human rights…I truly believe, that you could start by going back to school and learning how to speak a better vocabulary..Furthermore, if you don’t like what’s going on in the Philly area then move….However, if you want to live in the problem and not try to find a solution then keep your nasty mouth shut!!I can smell abuse from miles away, and you, dear Joe, are abusive…Oh, by the way, I am from the city right over the bridge, so I know what goes on in city’s…However, I am not going to comment on something I have no control over because in reality, the only person I have control over is me, and hopefully, I’ve passed some of my open minded thinking onto my children and grandchildren…We can make a difference one person at a time…So Peace Out Joe don’t get your panties in a knot….LOLOLOL
Gloria said:To Nquest: Would you please explain to me how America is supposed to “make reparations” to blacks for slavery?
Gloria, I addressed your obviously indefensible claim that America does not practice systematic white racism. Either you can address the points I raised and show how what I said does not contradict your claim or you can just concede that your claim that America does not practice systematic white racism is ill-conceived.
If you want to say something about reparations then speak about it in that context. I sure did and my challenge to you/against your claim is still open.
Note: I also mentioned the systematic white racism enshrined in LEGACIES and the preserved (i.e. UNDONE) White advantage gained from the racist housing markets. Each of those things, including the repeated, systematic denial of reparations from the end of slavery ’til today represents America’s continuing practice of systematic white racism by not undoing the effects/White advantage created by past racist practices.
I welcome your comments on the actual point of contention.
Gloria, the lesson we are suggesting is that the white racist frame is drilled into most heads in the US, esp whites. You need to be critical of that white racist framing that has been taught to you , not just operate out of it. You cannot, thus, generalize from your own limited experiences about black people or others, without consulting the extensive research on these matters. That is why consulting the research is very important if you really want to understand how racism works in this country.
Kristen, we do screen out a few of the more extreme hate comments we get, but let most others through so that viewers can see how many people think in the US — esp comments that take the time to make common arguments that need critiquing in this public medium.
Joe from Philly is getting two huge thumbs down from me too.
Words hurt. Especially the loaded epithets he’s so carelessly dropping.
First of all I’m a very open minded person thats not afraid to exspress my opinion. Did you people ever think that mabe some of what i’m saying is true? You seem to be close minded. What i’m trying to say is I’d pick the person with 40 years real life exsperience over someone who read about how to do a certain job or how he used to do a certain job (history) or what have you.
My opinion is started with exsperience dating back to the 70’s. My parents taught me lots of things and they don’t enjoy this lowly class of blacks ,latino’s,or white trash for that matter being in there pool or in there neiborhood.
I look at it in a big picture too. Why do the majority of white families whether poor or rich teach better values to there kids. I don’t need statistics or books to figure that one out.
The evidence is clear. Where theres crime it’s black,more bad schools black, more drugs black, dirty neiborhoods black, jails black,abandoned homes black,graffitii black ect. ect. ect.
Like our citiy and most other major cities this is the norm. Why is that? It’s simple….. Keep you house and neiborhood clean and your kids will do the same when they grow up (mostly), go to school and stress education to your kids and they do better in school, teach your kids not to be rude and loud and they might be treated the same, teach your kids that you have to work hard to get ahead in life instead of collecting from the government and they work hard to be responsible for themselves.
Change starts in the home and it’s not my fault or any other white person’s fault that these people don’t do this for themselves. For some reason they seem to wanna cry about how there being held back.
I leave you with my fathers famous words.” YOU MADE YOUR BED NOW LAY IN IT”
I appreciate Joe not screening these messages and he is right get out of your shell and see how most of the rest of the country feels.
Nquest says: I also mentioned the systematic white racism enshrined in LEGACIES and the preserved (i.e. UNDONE) White advantage gained from the racist housing markets. Each of those things, including the repeated, systematic denial of reparations from the end of slavery ’til today represents America’s continuing practice of systematic white racism by not undoing the effects/White advantage created by past racist practices.
OK Nquest..I will really try to make some kind of connection with you..although it’s been difficult as per our discussions so far. And..I want some credit for hanging in there..I could just walk off into the sunset..which I probably should..You won’t budge an inch..and I think my points are valid also.
First of all, you wrote Legacies, did you mean legalities? Cause that’s kind of important. I mean..big difference between legacies and legalities. As a language arts teacher I have a tendency to notice “stuff like that”.
You mentioned the” repeated systematic denial of reparations from the end of slavery til today”. Could you PLEASE explain what specifically Americans can do to make reparations for slavery? I know this will involve my tax dollars..funny how my ancestors were on a small farm in Italy during the slavery days of America..but still..I’m supposed to Pay Out to you in 2009 huh?
Plus, please tell me why Americans should make reparations to blacks but not other minority groups who suffered on the way to becoming accepted in the American melting pot. As I mentioned in one of my posts, my grandfather, who’d been in America a mere 10 years fresh off the boat from Italy, fought for America during WWI. How about My Reparations? I know he had to leave my grandmother and mother and aunt alone in America while he fought. My grandmother took in sewing to stay alive. I want Reparations for the monetary loss my Ancestors suffered cause my grandfather risked his life for America. If blacks are entitled to reparations, why not me? I await your answer..please.
We know that’s how you feel. You’re just wrong. You and everybody else who feels that way. Stats, research, studies all say you’re wrong. You can have your own opinion; you can’t have your own facts.
A suburban Philadelphia swim club has invited children from a largely minority day-care center to come back after a June reversal that fueled allegations of racism against the club, a spokeswoman said Sunday. The development came during a hastily called Sunday afternoon meeting of the Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania. Club members voted overwhelmingly to try to work things out with the day-care center, which accused some swim club members of making racist comments to black and Hispanic children contracted to use the pool, said Bernice Duesler, the club director’s wife.
A little public pressure and looks like they may belatedly do the right thing?
Joe Philly writes,
I think backing down is an addmission of guilt.
Guilty of being steriotypical yes, rasicm no.
If 60 big fat biker guys on Harley’s came to swim don’t you think the members would wisper the same kinds of comments? I for one would get out of the pool too and take my kids with me.
Would that be racist?
The answer is NO!
It’s the belief in America that bikers are bad drug dealing dirty drunken thugs. The movies protray it also.
Now I’ve seen bad bikers and i’ve seen good ones but would I let my kids swim with a bunch of them ?
Why take the chance! NO way!
Now you might say “but they were only kids”
The way white people see it is “where theres one theres many” just like cochroaches. And just like cochroaches there annoying and dirty. Just like bikers.
This is the perception we are given and the stereotypes we form.
You won’t see this on the news because they don’t report the aftermath of what this will do to the swim club but I garauntee it will go down hill lose members and close and be boarded up in years to come.
No1kstate this is for you
our country is 12.8% black but makes up 41% of our jail populution.
80% white and 37% of jail population
Who’s fault is that?
Sorry heres where I got the jail percentages from.
Joe from Philly, you need to do more research and not just try to generalize so glibly beyond what you experience. You have a right to view your situation as difficult, but not to generalize out of the white racist framing of society. You are living by several myths.
The prison data are just solid evidence that there is a severe racial bias in US policing and the so-called justice system. The data show that white youth are more likely than black youth to use marijuana or cocaine, to smoke cigarettes, or to drink alcohol. Recent surveys of high school students find that white students routinely indicate they are more likely to use drugs than black students. Research also shows that rates of drug abuse (also of child abuse) are higher for single-parent white families than for similar black families. Moreover, the general surveys of white and black adults indicate little difference in rates of drug use. Data on serious emergency room visits that are drug-related indicate that whites account for the lion’s share, about 70 percent, of all such visits. These drug-related emergency room visits have also grown much faster for whites than for blacks over the last decade or so.
Quite clearly, discrimination is evident in the fact that black Americans account for 12-13 percent of drug users but some 37 percent of those arrested by the police for drug use. In addition, the majority of drug couriers are likely to be white, as are the overwhelming majority of drug pushers. The extensive white drug using and dealing in this country gets much less police surveillance and prosecution, pretty clear evidence of discrimination in the policing and judicial systems. The disproportionate percentage of black folks in prison is a direct measure of extensive racism in the “Justice” system.
Gloria, once again, I welcome your comments on the actual point of contention. You claimed America does not practice systematic White racism. I provided you with examples of how America does (practice/preserve the effect of systematic White racism) specifically in terms of never undoing the effects of past racism — effects of past racism that have current-day impact.
And I was very clear when I mentioned legacies (academic — get into college because of mommy’s or daddy’s alumni status — legacies). I mentioned the idea in the context of affirmative action (see post #60).
Gloria said: “How about My Reparations?”
Stupid question. How about your reparations?
If blacks are entitled to reparations, why not me? I await your answer..please.
And my answer to your attempt to avoid the problems with your indefensible claim that America doesn’t practice systematic white racism is… WHY NOT YOU?
Reparations to you and yours… Go for it!!
Not a single drop of sweat off my brow. So, after you actually address the actual point of contention maybe you could explain why you think I’m supposed to be bothered by you wanting reparations. All you do is show your problems by making these statements.
It is a shame that these black kids had to experience this. I am very angry with this matter!!!!!I have learned from places here in my town that private sometimes means certain races are not aloud. The whole US should be after the owners and the inexperienced white lady who made the comment as well as every parent that removed their kid. They can teach these kids what they want but they need to realize that by the time these kids reach their teenage years they start getting an attraction to people of other races.That same woman who made the comment has some suffering to do once her kid starts dating……..wish that there was a way to follow up.
One thing you could do, Gloria, is read a book by Douglass Blackman, Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II. He used court records and financial records to detail the terror and slavery blacks in the South were still subject to.
As far as systemic racism after WWII, of course, you still have some neo-slavery. Also, segregation. The destruction of black economic centers to build the interstate highway. You have veterans being denied the school and home loans they were entitled to. Beyond that, of course, there remains employment discrimination. Discrimination in housing and lending. – Your grandparents and parents had access to jobs black men and women didn’t have access, too. That’s one way in which you’ve benefitted from slavery/neo-slavery. – There’s discrimination throughout the insurance industry, or maybe that’s just my local area. What happens is that black families are told whole life, or some version of it, is what’s best when actually everybody should have term life. Aside from that, there’s discrimination in education and school discipline. Quite frankly, the soft subject are quite problematic. In general, the books read are nearly all written by white authors, and the history taught is definitely Eurocentric. The whole “acting white” thing is not quite as common as made out to be; it only happens in specific situations. And when it does happen, it’s more about questioning whether or not the achievement student really buys into the subtle racism prevalent in these situations.
Did I mention that linguists all agree there’s no such thing as “proper” English? Black vernacular English is equally credible a version as any other. It’s just that as a nation, we’ve chosen white English as our standard. Think about it. Do you teach students the same grammer Chaucer spoke?
And NQuest definitely meant what he said: legacies. Students who may or probably not (W Bush) qualify for a school, but get in because their parents or grandparents went. Of course, this is gonna help white students more than black students!
Joe just made a quick detail of discrimination in the criminal justice system. But it won’t hurt to go through step by step. Black people are profiled and randomly stopped WAY, WAY more than white folks. Black folks are arrested more. What may throw you is that black offenders are arrested and released. But most people think that’s because the officers care less about the community, and what happens once offenders are just arrested and released. But everything else is fairly standard fair. Once arrested and booked, I guess, blacks are more likely charged. From here, they’re more likely to be convicted. Once convicted, black receive harsher sentencing.
Also, poor black mothers are more likely to have their children taken from them in situations where the issue may be something like, the electricity’s been cut off and so, there’s no heat. Then, the black mothers don’t receive as much help to have the initial situation corrected; and, have a much difficult time getting their kids back even after the initial situation has been corrected.
Then there’s the discrimination in the healthcare industry. For the same diagnosis, white patients receive much more aggressive, and better, treatment. And even though it’s pretty well known to people who care that whites are more likely to abuse prescription drugs, when a patient arrives complaining of some sort of pain, a white patient is more likely to be given a narcotic, and a black patient given a really strong ibruprofen.
You remember California passing prop 209 that outlawed affirmative action? Well. The percentage of minority students in state universities did drop, but not as a result of merit.
To interject in this discussion about reparations – It’s well documented that even though blacks have made some progress in closing the earnings gap, there still exists a gap in wealth accumulation. Which, if you recall, whites received a big boost from the govt in their ability to accumulate wealth through the GIBills which were administered at the state level and so only a very few black veterans received the benefits they were entitled to. No to mention generations of lower pay. – Mind you, even today, both white men and white women earn more than black men and black women. No respectively, here. Yes, that means that even white women earn more than black men. The gap in income even shows up for people of equal education and equal experience. – And the fact that many areas of labor dominated by African Americans, like domestic work , were intentionally left out of social security. Black farmers are still fighting for the funds due them from New Deal era laws. Past that, of course, the completely unpaid and unrestituted era of slavery. And while the specific people are dead, business that made money off slavery are still alive in a business/legal sense. And all the wealth the founding fathers had? And the wealth that supported both sides of the Civil War? That wealth came from black slave labor. Take a second to think about it: what would your great-grandfather have come to if there were no black bodies upon which to build America’s wealth?
Regular readers have probably read this a couple of times, but like I’ve said before, I like it, so I’ll keep saying it: People die; money gains compound interest.
I don’t want to seem mean in saying this. But please, please, don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. -That saying means the same to everybody, right?
Oh! And let’s not forget the way blackness is demonized. I think it was Gloria who said something about learning the language? Well, black folks aren’t the only ones with a vernacular. Where’s the condescention for other nonstandard vernaculars of English?
A MESSAGE TO JOE FROM PHILLY: PLEASE TAKE A NAP
@Joe, Kristen, and the other editors for this blog – Beyond “denial,” and maybe arrogance, is there a word for what we’re witnessing here?
@Gloria – It’s “white privilege” that allows you to think you’re as credible a commentor on race as any random black person. What makes you think you’re more credible than social scientist, I don’t know. But just think about it. It what other area of life does anyone, including the oppresor, presumes to be as credible on an issue as the oppressed? Do we take men’s word when it comes to sexism? If nurses complained about the way a doctor was treating them, and the doctor refuted the accusations, who would we believe? And just a random question – in your head, is the doctor a man or a woman, black or white? Are the nurses a group of men or women? Are we so dismissive to the complaints coming from the LGBT community? (And lets just all agree that there’s a difference between not having your relationship recognized by the state, or being lynched for your relationship, regardless of where you come down on gay marriage.)
And let me try to make Joe’s explanation of the white racial frame a little less abstract. now, though, like I said, I’ve had interactions with white people from an early age. + That reminds me. I don’t think I mentioned any particular advantage to having interactions with my mom’s white colleagues in this thread. So what were you talking about, Gloria, when you said I had advantages other blacks students didn’t have? It’s true that I did have advantages, that’s why I’m only now asking you what you had in mind? The advantage that comes to my mind is that if I misbehaved, I was treated like the white students and not yelled at like the black students. What were you thinking? + But, even though I knew there were brown people and pink people, everyone in my “home” world was black. So even now, if I point in a direction and say, “Look at the man over there. What is he doing?” I’m probably asking about a black man. When I want to point out someone of another race, I preface the race: ie, “Look at the white/Latin/Asian man over there. What is he doing?” In the same way that for me, “black” is normal, for white Americans, “white” is normal. And in this way have you been imprinted with a white racial frame that you need to question. I mean, did you know that even in 1964-5, when many school remained segregated regardless of region of location, the majority of white Americans thought black students received an equal education to white students? White people were wrong then. White people were wrong in the 80’s. Reagan lied about the “welfare queen.” Which reminds me, when it comes to state assistance, white applicants are more likely to be approved, regardless of whatever standards would be applied. And once approved, more likely to receive more benefits.
But back to my point. There’s no time in American history where white people, by and large, had an accurate perception of race in American. Not during slavery. Not after. Not in the 60s through the 80s. Not in the 90s and not now.
You said something to Rosalind or Kristen about your black friends not complaining about racism but holding their heads down. That’s the case with the overwhelming majority of black Americans. We don’t complain to our white friends about racism, as though you’ll mention it at the next National White American Conference. We hold our heads down. We know how contentious a discussion about race can get with you guys, so we complain about it to each other and at church. Maybe we should start complaining about it to you guys. I’ll think about mentioning that at the next National Black American Conference. -Okay. Sarcasm aside. Maybe we should talk more openly with our white acquaintances about race. Then we wouldn’t have all this misguided white folks who think, “Well, my black friends are happy.” [N-Quest, feel free to imagine what I’m really thinking!]
By, “hold our heads down,” I mean “hold our heads down” and work hard to achieve, not “hold our heads down” in deference.
And this explains some of the reason why people who are friends to white college students are acquaitances to black students. When you ask white students about their “friendships” with black students, you’ll find out that they consider a classmate with whom they share greetings a “friend.” So, the label black students use, “acquaintance” is more accurate.
No1 said: N-Quest, feel free to imagine what I’m really thinking!
I know what I think when someone like Gloria talks about different “elements” in the Black community contrasting one to the other. First, I think: how come Whites like Gloria never seem to think about what that says about them? The fact that Gloria et al feel so comfortable talking about African-Americans like they/we are lab rats. There is something really odd about the way the Gloria’s of the world are so eager to report their dubious findings (because, of course, lab rats don’t speak, so the gracious lab scientist like Gloria will tell you, in effect, what African-Americans think being sure to point out the differences between Black group A and group B).
Shoot! N-Quest didn’t say it so I’ll have to.
Sound quite remiscent of, “Well, mah niggras is happy. Jussa look at’em! Justa sing-ng and worken hard!”
I got to know this. When black people talk about reparations, we mean from a govt that allowed and gained revenue from slavery and slave-based industries; the business and industries that gained from use of slavery; the families who acquired wealth through slavery and slave linked work. For example, farmers who grew more than enough to subsist sold the extra produce and meats to slaveowning plantations. Or, in the north, average white workers were using cotton grown by slave labor, lumber cut by slave labor, etc. So, we can make a direct link from who made money to who didn’t and where that money went. With that in mind, exactly who would pay for your grandfather’s coming here? Meaning, who benefitted illegally from your grandfather’s migration?
I do agree with your response, NQuest.
Well, I learned alot tonight. Like my Italian grandfather made it in America, not by the sweat of his brow, but because of black slaves. I guess that poor man doesn’t deserve any credit at all. You’re right guys..I’m definitely out-numbered here. I honestly, HONESTLY, did not mean to generate so many defensive comments. I said the following earlier:
I know many lovely black people. Funny..I never hear them yell racist! They just go about their business of working hard . . .
Then No1KState said:
Sound quite remiscent of, “Well, mah niggras is happy. Jussa look at’em! Justa sing-ng and worken hard!”
To me..that’s a huge stretch! You know I never meant that! I have not used that type of language on this website..but it’s ok for you to use it. Right. I get it. I’m not welcome here. I truly am not. I’m sorry if I offended anybody.
Thanks for Allowing me the opportunity to speak. I won’t be giving any of my “stupid” opinions on this website again. I apologize to everyone. Have a Good Night.
Gloria said: Well, I learned alot tonight. Like my Italian grandfather made it in America, not by the sweat of his brow…
LOL… For a self-professed language arts teacher, you’re reading comprehension is way below kindergarten grade level.
First, you got all dsylexic pretending like the clear reference I made to legacies was perhaps me saying legalities. Anything to obfuscate, I guess. Now, this convenient learning/reading problem you have, has you creating, whole-cloth, stuff that was never said.
Sucks when your predictable little pre-school argument games result in answers you didn’t anticipate.
And, seriously, what did you think? For some reason, you faked like you wanted my response to you wanting reparations (for Italian-Americans). Really, what did you think? That that was something I have a problem with? That I would respond/react to the idea of reparations to/for Italian-Americans the way you have regarding reparations to African-Americans? In a word: stupid.
Simply, there is no other way to describe it. Now, all of a sudden, you don’t want to talk about reparations for Italian-Americans anymore. No, you’re too busy trying to find an escape route for that. lol
Obviously, you were not serious when you claimed America does not practice systematic White racism — you’ve long since given up trying to defend that nonsense. Likewise, your “MY reparations” routine wasn’t serious/honest. If it was, you would talk about it independent of any references made here to reparations for/to African-Americans.
(Revised post, since Gloria chimed in before I completed this post.)
No1 said: Shoot! N-Quest didn’t say it…
And the “lovely Black people” Gloria referred to didn’t either and, now that I’ve read her earlier comments (post #38, in particular, with the Bill Cosby and the references to the Obamas), I’m even less inclined to regard Gloria as a serious/genuine commenter… as if her clear obfuscation and direct avoidance tactics regarding her bogus and indefensible claim about America not practicing systematic White racism wasn’t enough…
And, really, what makes knowing Black people, including “lovely Black people”, something remarkable?
Like I said: how come Whites like Gloria never seem to think about what that says about them?
It’s bad enough for Gloria to comment as if she/Whites are the only ones who pay taxes. Even more absurd and completely lacking any semblance of awareness is her “MY reparations” argument based on “the monetary loss [her] Ancestors suffered” due to her grandfather risking “his life for America.”
I mean, the last thing someone trying to argue that if Blacks are entitled to reparations (when the obvious intent is to argue that Blacks are undeserving) then Italian-Americans, etc. deserve reparations too… the last thing someone trying to make that argument should bring up is military service/sacrifice because, frankly, for any such White ethnic immigrant group like Gloria’s Italian ancestors… there is simply no comparison.
[insert any given link to all the wars, from the Revolutionary war to the Civil War to the Vietnam war, etc., etc., etc. that African-Americans have fought in]
1) First off, nobody said your grandfather didn’t deserve any credit. All I’m suggesting is that all this credit you’re giving him, wondering why it is that he could be successful and black Americans couldn’t, is unfounded. Sorry that hurts your feelings. I’m not saying your grandfather didn’t sweat or work hard. All I’m saying is that there were other people sweating just as much and working just as hard and the reason they weren’t as successful was the color of their skin. Point blank. Period. And yeah. Immigrants were scoffed at, but they were giving jobs before African Americans. That’s just history.
And, I’m not accusing you of saying anything. Okay? You said what you said and meant just that. It’s almost as huge a stretch for you to presume I was putting words in your mouth. I don’t go for such cryptic tactics as would have to be presumed to jump to the conclusion you did. I pointing out the tendency white people have to assume that just because the representative few black friends they have don’t complain about racism, then everything’s okay. That’s just a false assumption. I’m not saying they don’t see things the way you do. But if you look throughout history, when a white person is questioned about the state race is America, they’d say everything fine cause they black people they know don’t complain about race. And there is some tone of ethnographical study, or in some case, outright ownership of black persons.
The truth is, most blacks don’t complain to whites about racism. As evidenced by this thread, the typical white person just can’t handle the truth, so why go down that road? You also seem to assume that if a black person gets along with white people, they don’t have a problem with the state of race. That’s just not true.
Also, yes, I can use the language I used. I clearly was using it to describe the attitude white landowners had about black people, whether they were their slaves, their tenants, or just the black family who lived on their own property down the road. Clearly, that’s how I was using the language. Do white people have to be careful when using that word? Yes. I’m sure you don’t call your lovely black friend your “n****as.” And unless you’re clearly using it to make a point about white people’s attitude throughout history about blacks, why else are you using it?
No one said you’re not welcome. Personally, I do wonder why you would come to a thread like this if you weren’t looking to learn more. I find it curious that you think your personal anecdotes should have the same consideration as scientific studies and research. Even the justice system is lowering the consideration with which it takes eyewitness accounts. I think it would behove you to do some research on your own before you continue to make inaccurate statements. But no one said you’re not welcome.
And here’s another question for Joe or Kristen or Rosalind. Maybe this happens in other places and situations and it’s just a tactic of human nature, and I’m not closing my mind off to that possibility. It’s just, there’s something odd about the fact that white people get so offended when others won’t take their word for it that racism doesn’t, or didn’t depending on the time period in question, exist. I guess back to my sense of whose word we take when oppression occurs – the oppressor or the oprressed. I’m not aware of any time in history where a group of people made false claims of oppression. So why is it that with all the outcry from the black community, white Americans just refuse to listen.
And Gloria, before you really pack it up and leave, if that’s what you decide to do, I think we can all agree that no one attacked you or your grandfather personally, we’re just ripping apart your false opinions and statements.
Wait, Gloria! Before you go, if you do, would you mind answering the questions put foward to you?
Sorry, guys. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I just wanna finish my thought about white people’s reaction when others (black people most especially) won’t accept their claims that racism doesn’t exist – it seems as though they wanna guilt the other person into agreeing with them. I can’t remember the name of the blog where this tactic was made clear to me. But generally, the person who’s views are most likely to be rejected turns language into weapons and then basically intimates that anyone disagreeing with their views has assaulted them in some way. The example used had to do with the author, when he was in college, taking a women’s studies class; and before he said something he knew his mostly female classmates would reject, he said something like, “Hear me out before you beat me up.” As though he were the victim.
That particular tactic isn’t exclusive to white Americans. So, I could be getting the wrong idea, but it seems like in America, the tendency to assume white is right, actually accurate, is so broad that white people get offended that they’re not believed, that they’re word isn’t trusted. On that count, what’s going on? I accept that I could be wrong. I just wanna know the dynamics of the exchange.
All of you seem to be intelligent, bright, and scholastic people..Do you want to know why we still have racism in his country???Because the people that are running the country want us to stay focused on living in the past….Do you know why???Because it keeps them in power…Think about this if white and black people banned together we would be able to stop the HATE that our beloved politicians create..We would be able to run the country the way it’s supposed to according to our constitution, and there would be equality for all of us…We as a nation allow the people in power to keep voting in people that are already in power, and they cause conflict between race to stay in power…There are more illegal immigrants in this country today then ever before because of greed…So, just keep focusing on the past..There is nothing that can be done about history that’s why it’s called history…However, there something that can be done about future…Let’s take a harder look at history… WOMEN in this great country were not able to vote before 1920..Do you know why because men didn’t “think” that we were capable to make a rational decisions, which was their first mistake…Men are the ones that have caused more wars throughout history..They have destroyed many lives over greed…. And, all of you talk about race..Look around you, when is the last time you went to a gas station or Dun ken Donuts and was waiting on by an American…We need to pull together and take back what’s rightfully ours..Our great grandparents fought long and hard for all of us to have a better life in a FREE country..Many have started from humble beginnings and worked just as hard, if not harder then picking cotton from a field…We are Americans first, and never forget it! Instead of fighting each other we should be ban together and take a real hard look at who the real racist’s are, which are in power now….To be honest, I truly don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist, but I do believe in social economic class..What class are you from?
No1 said:I just wanna finish my thought about white people’s reaction when others (black people most especially) won’t accept their claims that racism doesn’t exist – it seems as though they wanna guilt [trip] the other person into agreeing with them.
Well, it’s clear from my exchange with Gloria that she chose to use the emotional arguments about her grandfather and a series of personalized “MY taxes”, “MY reparations” arguments to evoke some kind of emotional response from me. Whether I was supposed to feel guilty or not, I don’t know but her responses were pretty much boiler-plate stuff. Reparations wasn’t the topic — it was mentioned as one of three examples to make a larger point about systematic white racism — but it was something Gloria had at least given some thought even if her knee jerk response to the mere sight of the word (reparations) was almost verbatim the same response, pretty much the same “MY taxes”, “what about [reparations for another group]?” most Whites give like they’re all reading off of a talking points memo.
Mom said: Think about this if white and black people banned together…
Mom, your closing remarks are an example of why banning together is a problem (because you continued to make arguments denying other people’s reality). Yet, banning together along class lines is clearly, historically a problem White Americans have had a problem navigating from the aftermath of Bacon’s Rebellion to recently when then candidate Obama explicitly made the point that politicians use “guns and religion” social issues to provide cover for not delivering on bread and butter economic issues. That was one of the “mistakes” Obama made during his campaign.
So, yes, I wonder how come poor, lower class, working class Whites never found common cause with the Civil Rights movement and particularly Dr. King’s Poor People’s Campaign. Wages of Whiteness??
.To be honest, I truly don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist
Then you honestly aren’t seeking common ground. Again, you remarks deny other people the(ir) reality. History shows how “our” great grandfathers definitely did not fight for the freedom of everyone in this country. Whites who haven’t been in power, so to speak, have been active participants in the oppression and racism non-whites have experienced in this country up to and including post-slavery immigrant groups.
This denial of historical facts cannot form the basis of “banning together.”
Gloria, one question, when you want to cite Bill Cosby and everybody only has to work hard etc.
Explain the phenomenon BUSH to me, why a complete white idiot not the brightest, also when it comes to your English language, also not the most decent one (remember that he touched for example Angela Merkel out ot the blue in an not so appropriate way?)
Explain, after 8 years being led by an aggressive idiot how white America could even accept the Republicans option of a McCain/PALIN ticket!
Even Palin was not enough a deterant for a majority of whites to vote for Republicans.
Why do white Americans accept such a low standard when it comes to their leaders?
And an honest answer to this question is also part of the answer to (global) white supremacy.
I wonder if this “it’s class, not race” is an acknowledged part of the “white racial frame.” For it seems like these class-based arguments only seem to come up in discussion when race/racism is the consideration. One would think with the number of people who say things like Mom that there would be some serious, sustained discussion about a class-based movement but I don’t see that going on anywhere outside of more or less card carrying Socialists/Marxists circles (i.e. non-mainstream). Yet this “it’s class, not race” thing is so popular and common it’s pretty much cliche.
Perhaps Mom can direct me to other on-line discussions — discussions outside of, away from and not in response to discussions on race/racism — that she’s had regarding class-based coalition building or class-based movement or perspectives.
>Our great grandparents fought long and hard for all of us to have a better life in a FREE country..Many have started from humble beginnings
you call genocide and ethnocide humble beginnings?
To answer NO1KState’s questions about some of difficulty posters are having to accepting people of color’s realities. I had a great seminar with a very critical race scholar, Dr. Wendy Moore, author of Reproducing Racism, and she outlined five tactics used by whites (and people of color who are entrenched in the white racial frame) to deny racism.
1) Using empathy (for whites and not in the same capacity for people of color) – this very much explains the reparations for whites that suffered comments.
2) Trauma – my notes are bad on this one, but my assumption is that this tactic is used to feign empathy, by saying how horrible and terrible racism is. This is where someone may cry about watching a documentary about residential segregation, but it’s more in the act of horror, not in true internalization of the gravity of the problem. The trauma is used to distract and the end result is someone who does not become truly anti-racist in their practices.
3) Meetings – like diversity trainings, or creating task forces to sit and talk about issues. This is away to seem democratic and give power to voices equally, however, true critiques and solutions are rare.
4) Talking about intent – much like the discussion here, “maybe the kids didn’t mean it racially,” “maybe it’s just about being different” where the intent is the focus instead of outcome. The city planners didn’t mean to displace all the black owned business when they put that highway right through the black neighborhood…
5) Colorblindness – Someone posted earlier about Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, and all this colorblindness takes shape in abstract liberalism or indiviualism, where is this strong belief in meritocracy, disregarding privilege, power, and an unlevel playing field. Colorblindness also incorporates cultural racism, minimization of racism, and naturalization of racial inequality. Yes, this is often a tactic used to deny systemic racism.
I am a true Native American Indian…I feel, that we were the ones that were treated inhuman. In fact, from the 1970-1990 the Creek Indian women were forced to have abortions.. I don’t hear of or see organizations fighting for there rights. Why? because of social economic class.. Apparently, you don’t want a common cause all you want to do is create conflict or keep the conflict going between race…If that makes you feel better, then go for it, that is your right as an American..However, there will come a day when the pendulum swings, and you will know the true meaning of social economic class..Keep your head in the books, however, it won’t mean a dam thing when we are forced into survival mode….If people are put into a situation of having nothing to lose then they are put into a situation of survival. Apparently, you don’t know the meaning of being poor, which by the way is not a crime, but a crime in itself…..
I don’t hear of or see organizations fighting for there rights.
Something must be wrong with your hearing. (What part of the discussion about people’s limited, personal life views hardly being an accurate or complete picture of reality did you miss?)
While affirmative action has been framed as basically synonymous with African-Americans, not only do Native Americans benefit from affirmative action but, in some states, their Native American status affords them tuition waivers. One of those states being the state of Michigan one of the sites of a much publicized affirmative action battle in recent years. Yet, it wasn’t Native Americans who were demonized in the Michigan case. Just as your previous (and now curious) comment was framed in BLACK and WHITE — “if white and black people banned together we would be…” (hmm… no mention of Native Americans there. WHY??) — the Michigan case was as well.
And your class idea doesn’t make sense especially with your “we were the ones that were treated inhuman” rhetoric. (And, seriously, which WE do you belong to? lol)
Notice you’re did not refer to a social economic class irrespective of one specific racial/ethnic/tribal group. You didn’t talk about all poor people or all people in a certain socio-economic class. You specified that a certain racial/ethnic/tribal group was subjected to certain treatment and your exclusive claim that “we [Native Americans] were the ones that were treated inhuman” betray your curious class rhetoric.
Surely Native Americans or Creek Indian, even Creek Indian women, were not the only ethnic group in the socio-economic class you were referring to… Yet they are the only people you referred to. WHY?
And please keep your comments to what you know. You know nothing of my life experiences, whether I am or have been poor or not. And really that’s the last thing you should be concerned with when you can’t even keep your class vs. race/ethnicity concepts straight… that or your hearing ability.
There is one small difference between American Indians and African Americans. The AI were here first. The AA were brought over. And since we are on this discussion, AA were sold by AFRICIAN slave traders. Yes, Europeans bought them and abused them, but why isn’t anyone discussing that? Where is the body of research into that aspect?? Hmmm. Didn’t think so.
I was referring to all Native American Indians, but used the Creek Tribe as and example. Apparently, I must have hit a nerve with you because of the nasty response..Good…Sometimes when we here or read something that bothers us, is in fact, the truth…I don’t want to fight about race..If you notice all my comments about that topic have been let’s live in peace not hate….I have enough on my plate trying to get my son through college alone, and really don’t have to time to bother with racist’s….You know, Nquest, it does work both ways…And, sometimes what you see in others that you don’t like you are actually looking at a mirror image of yourself. Maybe someday, something I’ve said, will become an enlightening experience for you…I’ve already been there, done that, and I fight for justice for all, not justice for a few…With love, light, peace, and hope…MOM:)
Actually TTj, there is lots or research about that, and the common link to all of this is COLONIALISM. So, let’s not get into whose oppression is greater, who was oppressed first, etc. The slave trade wouldn’t have existed if it weren’t for colonialism, regardless of what the slave traders in West Africa looked like.
MOM, I find your words to Nquest rather condescending. I think you should just consider the thought that your truth doesn’t work for everyone.
You want peace and love and harmony, and I’d wager that everyone else here does too. But the difference is that most of the posters here are interested in understanding and addressing systemic racism, not merely animosities between people. Many of us have experienced and/or studied discrimination that continues to happen today to people of color. It’s a very serious and very real issue, and the social science research shows it happens prolifically to African Americans and Latinos, and often to American Indians and Asian Americans – in jobs, in policing, in the courts, in schools, in real estate, in restaurants, etc… Whites tend to receive some level of privilege, even when you take socioeconomic class variations into account. Some studies are able to show that discrimination happens despite the good intentions of the person carrying it out. Isn’t that interesting? This suggests that we cannot fix the problem through goodwill alone. I understand that this may be your personal approach to dealing with the issue as you see it, but I urge you to consider that the problem of racism in fact goes beyond people’s feelings.
You might also be able to learn something from the dialogue on this site.
Thanks for posting those notes. It’s pretty clear that 1, 2, 4 & 5 are being used heavily on this issue of the pool.
The answer to your question regarding the topic of social economics..You can find out for yourself, if you take a social economics class….And, as far as the poor white people that oppressed the cause of Martin Luther King is because they didn’t have the means to become educated themselves…Look up the word ignorance..As mentioned before, what ties us all together are our feelings.. I don’t care where, what ,why and how we got here..What matters now, is here, present, and how we treat each other..The only thing I can think of is mutual respect..Can’t solve the worlds problem, but we can get along with each other through mutual respect..As far as racist treatment by other people, I am not responsible for how other people treat each other, I am only responsible for my own behavior..I have friends from ALL walks of life…Why? Because I don’t look at the color of a persons skin or social status, I focus on the color of their soul. It’s been a pleasure talking to you, and getting different views on serious issue…Take Care…:)
Lets imagine. You’re a manager at a private club. Or better yet, you’re a board member of the club, with some actual power, but wait, with that power comes responsibility, responsibility to act in the interest of the club and its members. So, in these pressing economic times, you and the other members of the board decide to enter contracts with some local daycares which allow the daycares to utilize some of your facilities. Anyone who thinks that the people at the pool were ignorant of the racial make up of these daycares is ignorant. So, your thinking that you just made some extra cash for the club. Now, fast forward a couple days, you’ve got an untold number of club members, that’s right, the same members whom you are bound to serve, the same ones that might be paying your salary depending on the exact structure of the club, anyway, these member are in your office complaining about the large number of guests at your pool each afternoon. Remember there were 2 other daycares that had their contracts rescinded without calling CNN. So there is at least one daycare using the pool everyday. I don’t know what the membership dues are at this club, but I’m willing to guess that individual yearly dues are a little higher than $1900, they are in my area. You would have no choice but to rescind your contract with the daycare in favor of preserving the clubs membership. It’s not the board of director’s place to dictate morals and ethics to country club members. I also find the idea of racism in Philadelphia pretty funny. I’m from the south and happen to be jewish. There are a number clubs in my area that don’t admit jews or blacks, we don’t complain, besides; what’s going to happen?
Now this group is preparing to file a lawsuit, for what? I don’t understand what they want to get out of this. The contract price was returned, the daycare even benefited legally in that they got a free day of swimming. The most the daycare is going to get out of this is an apology and nominal damages. Now, I’m sure that there’s some inflamed lawyer out there who’s willing to take this case pro bono and get his name on some by-lines, but this case is stupid. If anything, I think that the club has a better defamation case against some of these parents who seem to making baseless accusations and talking out of their a**’s
Thanks Kristen, Rosalind, and NQuest. Especially for the notes Rosalind. Spot on.
@Mom – The problem historical and presently is white lower socioecon class not wanting to work with people of color, black, Creek, Latino or whoever. And when there is a coalition across race lines, we racism within the organization. The first example that comes to mind is with many feminist groups and Geraldine Farrarro. Our anti-racist struggle isn’t about changing the past. Of course, restitution is only just, but the point isn’t to time travel to the past and change what happened; our issue today is the racism that exists today. And if blacks and whites can’t work together because blacks want to tackle issues of racial justice in addition to issues of socioecon justice, clearly, it’s not black folks with the problem. Even the white poor are often times better off and certainly have more opportunities than the black poor. Solving socioecon issues, which would be great, won’t solve the racism people of color, including Creeks, face. It’s not an either/or proposition. We can tackle both racial and socioecon justice at the same time.
@TTj – There are some African tribes, for lack of a better word, who have apologized for their participation in slavery. Because slavery in many parts of West Africa is astronomically more humane than American slavery – for example, slaves in West Africa had the opportunity to advance in society and be free – those tribal heads who sold other ethnicities into slavery didn’t know what they were selling people into. Upon learning the truth of American slavery, many tried to “cancel contracts” with white slavetraders; they would be threatened with the enslavement of their own people. There was an African Queen, Queen Nzinga, who over the course of many years, successfully fought the Portugese and ended her tribes participation in the slave trade. Europeans fire power was considerable, so her case was rare.
Also, we need to be more specific than glibly throwing around “Africans sold other Africans.” Africa is made up of a hundred or more different ethnic groups with different cultures and different histories – like Europe is made up of many different ethnic groups with different cultures and histories. So, it was not as though rich black Americans were selling poor black Americans into slavery. It was Ndongos selling Asantes; or better corrolation would be the English (Anglos) selling the Irish (Celtics) or the French (Gauls). The “Africans selling other Africans” meme is simply a ploy, and not a very academic one, of deflecting white American responsibility for American slavery.
Can I make just a general observation. It would be nice of every couple of centuries or so, white people would come up with different rationalizations for racism. The “black criminality” meme was used as early as 1866 to explain why so many freedmen and women were in jail; when the truth of the matter was that 99% of the crime being committed in the South was by whites, especially veterans of the Civil War. WEB Dubois in what was the first ever social science study debunked the myth of “a neighboor full of black people is crime ridden” as early as 1908 (?), and we still heard that one in this thread. The “can’t keep living in the past meme” had such a enormous number of adherents, that as early as the 1880s, schools and colleges stopped teaching Harriett Beecher Stowe’s UNCLE TOM’S CABIN. I’m not sure when “Africans selling other Africans” cropped up, but it’s junk, too. The “it’s their own fault they’re not succeeding; they should just work hard” meme appeared immediately after the Civil War.
Which isn’t to say that there are any new rationalization, or that I really care to have to give attention to any new rationalization. It is to point out the inherent faultiness of the memes we continue to hear. If these memes about black crime, blacks’ living in the past, etc developed all prior to the 19th century when we KNOW they were just excuses for white terrorism, what makes the current use of those memes any different? One could even make a strong case about the continuity of white terrorism. I suppose I should, but I just don’t feel like it right now.
@Mom – Regarding comment 121, what’s so antagonistic about wanting to end institutional and cultural racism?
Yes but Colonialism wasnt just a european thing. What about the Arab Slave Trade? It enslaved more than the Atlanctic one. I digress.
This “white” lens you all talk about …. what color lens should it be? “Black” lens? “Asian” lens?
White is the dominant culture because Europeans did the dirty work to make this a global society. You people forget all the quality things that AA people enjoy in this country. I know this is an agrument waiting to happen but: Your a whole lot better here and now than if we had never taken your ancestors as slaves. Otherwise you’d *most likely* still be killing each other in the “mother land”.
Having said that, let me be clear. I detest slavery, but it happened. We need to move past it. I detest jim crow and the following segregation, but it happend. We need to move on. This can be equal if people just let it go!!!!!
I don’t think I said that, I do believe, I stated, that I am not responsible for how people treat each other, in general…I am only responsible for my own behavior…However, I want to know WHY there are racial injustices…Why do people discriminate against each other either by color or social economic class…I read a lot of discussing ,regarding, how people are discriminated against, but I don’t think I have read WHY are they discriminated against…Let me know I’m curious about your response…Thanks:)
@TTj – We don’t have to argue. You’re just wrong about whether or not African Americans would be better off if slavery had never happened. And yes, we know about Arab slavery. But it wasn’t Arabs who enslaved my great-grandparents.
@Mom – I did not say you said anything. I just asked you a question. Answer my question and I’ll answer yours.
Is it okay if I use Gloria’s comments in my blog?
First, No1KState, excellent point regarding the old age meme’s… Your point/question adds new meaning to the question I raised when considering Gloria’s comments: how come Whites [like Gloria] never seem to think about what that says about them? (I’ll avoid quoting James Baldwin here.)
Second, Mom, the question I posed was posed in the appropriate arena and my question in #111 — I wonder if this “it’s class, not race” is an acknowledged part of the “white racial frame.” — was a sociological question (and, perhaps, a linguistic one) not a question of “social economics.” In fact, the fact that Dr. Feagin and others here at RacismReview have examined the so-called “white racial frame”, up to and including the kind of rhetoric White Americans employ when discussing race/racism (see the oft referenced study/book by Bonilla-Silva – ‘Racism Without Racists’), was the very reason why I pondered/posed the question.
Sorry for exposing you with my attempt to engage in a discussion about a concept that’s discussed here over and over.
And speaking of exposing you… Well, suffice it to say that your non-response to me basically asking you to cite where you… where you… not people in a social economics class… where you have promoted this class-based “banning together” idea in on-line discussions you’ve been in that had nothing to do with you responding to or commenting on race/racism — when and where has this “class” struggle rhetoric of yours been part of your overall philosophy regarding “social economics”, etc.
Not only does your non-answer (or your incoherence/inconsistency) expose you but your swift shift from talking about Blacks and Whites “banning together” to making petty, stereotype-infused, sophomoric personal attacks in post #114 against me… Well, that displayed just how unprepared you are to engage in these type of discussions.
BTW, Kristen, first, you have to know that I’ve been treated to Mom’s type of behavior/rhetoric countless number of times and I consider it evidence of Mom’s et al considerable lack of depth/reflection. When you first post your response, that was my first thought and I was going to tell you that you don’t have to feel like you need to stand up for me. But, after I actually thought about what you said, I guess I never looked at it like that — that rhetorical games like Mom’s were/are “condescending” (I’m more underwhelmed by attempts to avoid substantive debate/discussion and/or to use their audience with a real, live Black person or race discussion(er) to get their scrambled rant on).
I said all that to say (to you, Kristen), thanks for helping me see Mom-like behavior/rhetoric in a new light.
Thought I’d just point out a few more of Mom’s curious (lol) statements:
“I was referring to all Native American Indians, but used the Creek Tribe as and example.”
Said after I posted the following:
Surely Native Americans or Creek Indian[s], even Creek Indian women, were not the only ethnic group in the socio-economic class you were referring to… Yet they are the only people you referred to. WHY?
(Note: Mom never answered the question as to WHY she switched from transparently fake rhetoric about interracial class solidarity to a decidedly race/ethnic/tribal-centric line of argument.)
“I have enough on my plate trying to get my son through college alone, and really don’t have to time to bother with racist’s…”
Said after Mom made the curious declaration that:
Instead of fighting each other we should be ban together and take a real hard look at who the real racist’s are, which are in power now….To be honest, I truly don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist
Once you get over the “whatareyoutalkingabout?” factor, you have to ask what was the whole Black and White “ban together” speech for if Mom’s base attitude is such that she doesn’t have time to be bothered because she has “enough on her plate”?? But, mind you, she’s “been there, done that, and I fight for justice for all, not justice for a few…” Whenever it fits into her schedule, I guess.
I’ll just ignore the Twilight Zone comments:
 “You know, Nquest, it does work both ways…
sometimes what you see in others that you don’t like you are actually looking at a mirror image of yourself.
 I am a true Native American Indian…
Think about that — N.A.I., “true” and the scrambled WE’s and the THERE’s [sic].
And, now, I won’t even touch the priceless:
Men are the ones that have caused more wars throughout history..They have destroyed many lives over greed…. And, all of you talk about race..Look around you, when is the last time you went to a gas station or Dun ken Donuts and was waiting on by an American…We need to pull together and take back what’s rightfully ours…
Ah, schucks… Might as well.
Mom said: “I have enough on my plate trying to get my son through college alone, and really don’t have to time to bother with racist’s….You know, Nquest, it does work both ways…”
It works BOTH ways? Which two ways? And what happened to this stuff about “real racists” and your statement that, and I quote (you): “To be honest, I truly don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist…”
Oh well, I’ll just take your “work both ways” statement as a less than honest statement of yours since “to be honest”, you “don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist.”
i think race is a little overrated…that’s why I’m raceless
You are absolutely right..I am not prepared to speak about such topics because I have never taken a class regarding the subject..However, I do qualify from life experience, maybe, more so, then experiencing subject matter from any book. Also, I have learned through the years, not to believe everything I read because of life experiences…Where I got the idea of “people” banning together is my own philosophical way of thinking…However, I do know what’s wrong with the “Politicians”, and I get upset on how they use the American people’s like or dislikes, in other words, weakness’s to get votes to stay in power..Let me give an example..Most of us agree on that the health care system in our country sinks..Well, someone that is going for votes will say “I’ll make it better and this is how we are going to accomplish that task”, and after they get their votes they do nothing…And, that has certainly been a problem throughout history, right? I am certain that they use that kind of propaganda on ALL issues that we have going on our country.. The only time I see Americans banning together for a common cause is WAR…And, as I mentioned before, MEN have started wars since the beginning of time for power and greed….You still did not answer my question about Why people discriminate…I still think that they discriminate because of social economic class..Let me give another example…If those children that where at the pool where from an elite day camp, and their parents where famous football or basketball players.. Do you think that the “members” of that pool would have reacted the same way?…I don’t think they would have…Why? because of Social Economic Class. Those people would have been all over those kids, and running their mouths about how famous people kids where swimming at their swim club. etc.etc…This is the point that I was trying to make..
You know, I came to this site upset and wanted to make a statement regarding how those children where hurt by the actions of he people at the swim club..I did’nt realized what site I was visting, and apparently, YOUNG college african american students, and maybe, some of their theachers talking about how raicist white people are, and how we suffer from the fact that we are a different color…However, I don’t see anybody writing or discussing a solution to the problem….And, yes, it does work both ways…If don’t want to find a solution, and stay caught up with your own prejudice, then other people will stay prejudice. “It works both ways”…I come up with hey let’s try to find a solution, and was shot down because of your prejudice against me for GOD knows what reason..Well, hopefully, after your done with the studies on black history you will take a social economics class..My son is studying the Environment and Geography…..I was raised by professor’s of education….Kind of adopted into their family….So, I am all about education, and the impact it has on peoples lives, which by the way, I feel that education should be free to all legal Americans, but that’s a different topic…In fact, you probably used one of the books that my adopted father and mother wrote in school…Take Care * God Bless! I hope you find peace someday…PS I do not apologize regarding how I feel, however, one could raise a question and debate on how I think…
@Mom, I realize that you avoid answering questions, nonetheless.
>Our great grandparents fought long and hard for all of us to have a better life in a FREE country..
who is “our great grandparents”?
>Many have started from humble beginnings and worked just as hard, if not harder then picking cotton from a field…
what humble beginnings?
I am sure you can explain:
I am a single WHITE parent that is struggling to get her son through college…NO hand outs here, but college loans.
I am a true Native American Indian…
LIKE I SAID BEFORE: White is the dominant culture because Europeans did the dirty work to make this a global society.
Well, again, I’ll hit the rewind button…Apparently, your great- great-great grandparents came here, not by their choice…And, my great-great-great grandparents were invaded by the Dutch, English, Scott, and Irish..So, do we stand on common ground…Apparently, not!!!!Our great-great grandparents were forced in American wars for freedoms of the American people..Did I say all American people NO!! The African people were salves and the Indians were put onto reservations..period…However, the people of all colors in society today have more freedoms then any Indian could ever dream of having, or we would be talking about Indian racial discrimination..However, being from that culture, and knowing what religious views they practice is why they do not have debates like this…..Now, did I say a better religion. NO! However, I do know that they have more of a spiritual outlook about life, and have more respect for the earth then any other race that I have encountered, thus far…..Dose that make me a racist. NO! This is proven FACT!…Now, I will tell you something else I do have another side of my family that is not Indian, and was in the ghetto’s of NY when they came to this country…My grandfather fought hard for his family to be called American, because it did make a difference to him because of the FACT that his class was considered scum when they arrived here…So, as mentioned before, I don’t want to be pulled into racial debate because if you cannot come-up with a solution then it’s just wasted energy for all of us…And, speaking about all of us, I find it amusing that I am the only one that is trying to come up with a solution…TAKE A SOCIAL ECONOMICS CLASS. And, chill out!!
>Apparently, your great- great-great grandparents came here, not by their choice…
why do you think this?
Mom, you really have know I idea the age, race, or occupations of the posters here. Just because people here share a similar critique of racism in the United States, does not mean they look all the same. We may share the same passion for racial justice, and it’s not impossible for whites, Latinos, and Asians to agree with African Americans that racism exists.
I often hear the argument about class over race. I do think there is a lot or discrimination based on class, for sure. However, classism does not explain why affluent African Americans and Asian Americans face discrimination. They could be millionaires, driving a Mercedes, and wearing three-piece suits and get called a racial epithet, be refused service, or be stopped by the police. The person discriminating against them doesn’t see their bank statements! If they are dressed to the nines, the person discriminating doesn’t see what’s in their wallet, they see their skin, facial features, hair. Sometimes race operates separately from class.
>And, speaking about all of us, I find it amusing that I am the only one that is trying to come up with a solution…TAKE A SOCIAL ECONOMICS CLASS.
your only solution is denial of reality and faking an identy = lying.
Your ‘example’ of class, and if the children were famous etc., being famous is not belonging to a certain class, it also doesn’t mean to be always wealthy and most of all you can’t know the children’s class by just looking at them.
As a “true Native American Indian” I urge you to see 2 posts about the status of American Indians to show that there are not more freedoms and conditions are pretty horrific. Because of the extreme poverty and lack of resources awarded to this population on the reservations, here is a snippet from one of the two posts:
Actually according to Indian Health Service and the National Center for Health Statistics “worse than average” is a gross understatement. American Indians have:
* Infant mortality rate 300% higher than the national average
* Tuberculosis rates 500% higher than the national average
* Diabetes 200% higher than the national average
* Cervical Cancer 170% higher than the national average
* Maternal death in childbirth 140% higher than the national average
* Influenza and pneumonia 150% higher than the national average
* Teenage suicide rates 150% higher than the national average
* Overall suicide rates 60% higher than the national average
This was posted by an American Indian woman. Please see her moderately sized posts:
Many American Indians would argue vehemently that they have more freedom today
That last post (#143) was addressed to Mom, sorry if I didn’t clarify.
LOL @ JWBE’s post #137 exposing the sure dishonesty of the quick-to-stereotype and make idiotic assumptions poster Mom.
I did’nt realized what site I was visting, and apparently, YOUNG college african american students…
Well, I guess that explains one of the things Kristen may have found condescending in your chuckles-worthy post to me — someone you just assumed was a college student no actual information to that effect necessary, I guess. lol And then you go on to make idiotic assumption about JWBE — the person who asked you about your great-grandparents.
I still think that they discriminate because of social economic class..
And you say that despite information to the contrary.
Do you think that the “members” of that pool would have reacted the same way?
Sorry, I don’t do rhetorical questions. No. I will not make your argument for you. You got a point to make, make it directly. As a quick counterpoint, I’d simply reference the well-documented reality of White Flight and draw your attention to the numbers.
The whole White Flight phenomenon, our dear single WHITE parent (aka “a true Native American Indian), indicates that, sure, a few rich Black people are okay (as was in the backstory to this case), but when the Black population reaches certain percentage, then the White Flight reaction occurs. Plus, your question is flawed (and curious) because you referenced more than mere socio-economic class, you inserted the status of being “famous” which necessarily presents a different set of dynamics.
Re: post #143 and things “heard”… I’ll avoid going on a rant about then candidate Obama foregoing “tough talk” and at least claiming to be a strong advocate for solving/addressing the issues above regarding negative indicies impacting Native Americans. I believe he promised to have a Native American czar/cabinet post regarding those issues (and other trust/sovereignty issues) — as there should be.
my best friend move to West Hartford, Connecticut 3 years ago and she’s been going through hell with Hispanics, caucasians and Europeans. Starting from the first day of gathering so that parents and students could mingle she was completely out of place with her children ,and those with their body language you can sense their ignoranceTrough the whole school year even in school her kids endure some though times .Neighbors are always on the lookout. 3years none of them ever introduce themselves to her or her husband . That’s why we have so many psychos in our society.They been taught hatred from the crib to adulthood.
>“Don’t waist your energy on debates that have no solutions because the there is no cause to debate. ……
why then do you come here, interfere, insult, lie and then you leave feeling like a victim.
There is one thing I could observe with most white americans I met: the deep lack of self-reflection and it is never them who could be wrong, offending, uneducated etc.
When you find it abusive that somebody highlights your lies, go to a children’s playground where you can find your level.
A quick word about moderation of comments. We get lots of racist comments here as you might expect, some we let through, some we delete. It’s always a judgment call about which ones will serve as a useful ‘teaching/learning moment’ and which ones are just vitriol that do not serve a larger purpose. Comments that are just amount to name-calling will be deleted.
@Nquest, Thanks for your note (#130). I didn’t intend to step in and defend you personally so much as to make a point to MOM that she be considerate of the important dialogue about systemic racism that happens on this site. I have not doubt that you handle your own. But then again there is something to say for solidarity.
Mom, I didn’t read everything you said. But I can answer the question as to why people discriminate: it gives them a higher social status and most Americans have been imprinted with the white racial frame of reference which is one of white superiority.
I disagree with you on the point of education being the difference for poor white workers. More people are educated now than ever, and racism continues it’s destructive path. The last guy to get the boot for saying Africans were just plain ole less intelligent was a decorated scientist. Even American education system reinforces racist notions of who’s “proper” and who’s “abnormal.” Conservatives like to “think” on the myth of “acting white,” but the truth is, the farther you go in education, the more Eurocentric it becomes.
No one here is saying classism doesn’t exist. We’re saying that’s a separate issue. And it wasn’t the problem at the pool that day.
In regarding taking your sentences apart instead of entire paragraphs – they’re pointing out how your sentences contradict each other and don’t generally follow your philosophy of everyone working together.
And you still have a question of mine to answer, since I did just answer the question you posed: what’s so antagonistic about addressing racial inequality?
@TTj – “Dirty work”: that’s for sure. Besides that, you’re wrong. There’s no way to know society wouldn’t be global with Europe’s “dirty workers”; and no way to say things wouldn’t be better. Lots of the global firestorms were started by European arsonists. So, in a way, don’t expect any thank you flowers for taking me to the emerency room after sucker punching me and breaking my jaw.
If figures that you would of deleted my last post because you want the opinion of WHITE people’s view on racism in America…I can assure you that I know tons of people and will disclosed the fact that this site is extremely racist…”Don’t waist your energy on debates that have no solutions because there is no cause to debate”…THINK of what was said and tell me why would any person in their right mind want to come to this site to be abused by extremely racist people…..There were no insults, only defenses, from the attacks of my color and social economic class…However, what would you know about that when you haven’t even researched that possibility….And, as far as being a victim, I don’t believe that for one second..I stand my ground for all that I believe in…
Solution! I forgot Mom’s whole issue about looking for a solution to racism. Here’s one: white people can stop being racist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, psychology this, brain memory that. First off, the brain mapping that results in everyday, average racism can be remapped. Second, we’re not talking about the ways in which “everyone is racist,” due to the evolutionary impulse to group and prefer your own group. We’re talking about racial profiling, racial discrimination in lending and finance, forced abortions on people who’re at the bottom of both racial and class status. Those kinds of things can be stopped.
@jwbe – First Gloria, now Mom. Though I gotta hand it to Gloria, she hasn’t come back. I thought she would. I’m right with you on the lack of self-reflection on the part of many white Americans, and I wonder if that’s not a sympton for racism itself. Is there any other racial group that seems to get so “offended” when others reject their opinions for facts? As though to say, “I’m white! How dare you challenge me!”
Please disregard last comment. Should read:
In what ways is this site racist? In what ways have commenters been racist towards you? All anybody did to you as far as your racial identity was question how you could be “white” AND a true Native American. A simple answer, if true, is that even though you’re [Amerindian nation here], you can pass for and are socially white. I know, for example, that there are some Lumbee who could pass for white. Or, maybe you’re biracial? Short of those two explanations, which you may have given, I don’t know, what other explanation is there?
And I’ll piggy back off jwbe – Why is it that when people, especially white Americans, have their fantasies and myths dashed by facts, they start crying racism? NQuest brought up this issue on another thread, but it fits here, too. A person actually says more about themselves than they do alleged “anti-white” racism when they make claims like this. Ie, Sen Graham. If nothing else, it demonstrates that you don’t know what racism is and don’t care to learn, which just proves our point! This country is steeped in white supremacy.
Oh. Lastly, Elaine – joining just so you could cancel? Great stuff! :DDDDD Sorry I missed it earlier!
>Is there any other racial group that seems to get so “offended” when others reject their opinions for facts? As though to say, “I’m white! How dare you challenge me!”
I don’t know, I think it is a ‘way of life’ most of those in power can conveniently live. I think it is this egoism and also learning that you (whites) mostly get what you want and also no sense (empathy?) for other people’s feelings, regardless race. People f+ck you up, but when they do it with a ‘smile’ and being ‘nice’, they expect a thank you and if you dare criticize them, they act like offended children.
This is why I wonder, why there is so little honest exploration about the (white) soul and psyche. It seems that too many whites, also ‘anti-racists’ are not aware of it, I don’t know. It seems to be the big tabu among whites – don’t ask who we are.
What’s so antagonistic about addressing racial inequality? Nothing!! What bothers me is that there are people that are still extremely racist on both sides, and there is nothing that can be done about it…And, I truly feel bad about it.. However, as I mentioned before, I am only responsible for my behavior, and not other people’s beliefs etc..Moreover, I am going through something right now, regarding, discrimination of national origin, that has to do with the Southern portion of the country….That’s why I moved back North to get away from the discrimination of “Yankees”…True story.. Maybe someday you will read about it in the paper or a book..I feel at a loss. I am discriminated against because of my age to get a job, and then I am discriminated against because of my national origin….However, I don’t pretend to know exactly how African American people feel, but I do try to understand, which I would hope that other people would try to do…Thank You for being kind too me..I enjoy intelligent conversations, and love a good debate…There is only so much that I can write at one time..If someone misconstrues my comments then that means there were words left unsaid, and when words are left unsaid, may cause conflict, or hurt feelings..However, I do not apologize for how I feel, but I would consider a debate on how I think…:)
I disagree. The problem has been and continues to be racism on the part of white Americans. It’s they who don’t want to work with us, or any other group of color, on an equal basis.
Sorry for what you’re going through. Take a deep breath. If you’re discriminated against because of your national origin, that racial discrimination. You should probably look for some civil rights group to help you.
@jwbe – It’s gotta be something like that.
>I am discriminated against because of my age to get a job, and then I am discriminated against because of my national origin…
how do you put this in your “it’s class” claim?
>I enjoy intelligent conversations
intelligent conversations need knowledge on both sides, your side is clearly emotional, you want to be the one understood, you want to be the one in the center with her experiences and at the same time denying institutional white racism=denying the reality of other people besides you. You even can’t get your thoughts straight, yes you are responsible for your own behavior, so stop blaming others for it.
>@jwbe – It’s gotta be something like that.
yes. And honestly, sometimes I also have the impression that this white talk about white privilege and the fixation on race alone and how we whites as a collective discriminate against PoC reinforces white supremacy.
This exclusion of white to white behavior, as if racism/ws happens in a vacuum – I find this quite scary.
And to the topic, the swimming pool incident – some or even many whites can get angry about it, they can point their fingers towards ‘those other racist whites’, rally or sign petitions until the next incident which is published in the news. And nobody seems to ask the question ‘why’ and what it does tell about a (white) society as a whole, when they feel so threatend or disgusted? just because of some children with a different skin-color then theirs. The damage also in the white soul not able to feel the pain they inflict, I mean, what would be a normal human reaction when children are disappointed. When people can’t suffer with others, there is much more damaged in the white collective soul, and this can’t be ‘cured’ via education or words or rallies.
@ these MOM debates…
I feel the need again to point out that MOM is operating from an individualistic, feelings-oriented definition of racism. MOM, in order to understand what is happening to you in this debate, you have to know that most of the other posters here are operating from a more expansive definition of racism that INCLUDES people’s feelings and emotions but focuses heavily on societal practices and inequalities, privilege and disadvantage. I won’t say that your perspective is “wrong” – as you have pointed out, a lifetime of living has molded your point of view – but your understanding of the dynamics of race and racism IS more limited than some other people’s here.
As a white person I’ve only arrived at my understanding of racism from extensive studying (and, by the way, this studying does indeed include considerations of social class, gender, and other factors) and from listening closely to the varied perspectives of people of color as well as white antiracists. Not to toot my horn, but I’m just saying I know from my experience as a white person that it’s practically impossible to be white and to have a deep understanding of racism without actively seeking out information. Do you want some more information? I know a ton of good books on a number of topics… you name it, and I can send you suggestions.
jwbe said:The damage also in the white soul not able to feel the pain they inflict, I mean, what would be a normal human reaction when children are disappointed. When people can’t suffer with others, there is much more damaged in the white collective soul, and this can’t be ‘cured’ via education or words or rallies.
You even can’t get your thoughts straight, yes you are responsible for your own behavior, so stop blaming others for it.
I don’t understand you..No I am not asking for understanding, never had it ,and I suspect, I never will…And, yes, I am responsible for my own behavior, however, most people like to point the finger at other people for when things go wrong in their lives..I am proud to say that I am responsible!!!!
When you talk about “white” people you are actually classifying all “white” people, and how do you know what’s in a “white” person’s soul,
unless you are one..
Thanks, No1KState it is truly going to be a battle..I just hope some justice comes out of it for everyone that is involved…Take Care.
Thought for the Day!!
In some small way, my pain is your pain, and your pain, is my pain. And, in some small way, my joy is your joy,and your joy is my joy…Woe to the many who do not feel this spiritual connection, which is called collective conscious, or collective intelligence..
Unfortunately, not many people are able to grasp this concept…So, before you classify all “white” people get to know them a little better…
Love, light, peace, and hope…:)
>When you talk about “white” people you are actually classifying all “white” people,
yes I do and uh imagine, there is a reason for.
The one thing I didn’t find up to now is the white code-book where people like you read their stereotypical responses, so predictable that’s really stunning (and then white people live the illusion of “individualism”, lol). Or perhaps it’s a computer program *push the button – print automatic response*
and go search the connection, because whites also share a collective history and collective cultural knowledge, which includes a collective racist knowledge, and also the term collective guilt is in at least that way helpful that in a working oppressive system nobody belonging to the oppressors group is truly innocent. Ask Germans, lol
edit, please insert a point after “print automatic response”. Should read : automatic response*.
And go search…
@Kristen – What about Gloria’s reaction, for example? I would hope it was clear that we were talking about systemic racism and not personal animosity, but she decided to remain in denial.
Ask Germans, lol What does that mean? Are you talking about “white” supremacists..In fact, I know what a “white” supremacists is there kinda like the Bloods & Cripts.. Because there are “white supremacist” does that mean that all whites believe in what that stand for.. And if that’s the case that would mean that all African American people think like the Bloods & Cripts, which is irrational… ..I think what I wrote bothers you because like I said most people cannot grasp the concept on collective intelligence or collective conscience. Obviously that would include all people from all races being guilty or poor spirituality to some degree….Nobody, that I have met so far is perfect, but some people think that they are (like my ex), which is a soul sickness in itself…As far as a code book, jwbe I don’t follow the social norms, sorry to disappoint you, but it you find one let me know, I would like to see it for myself. I am tired good night….We may disagree on some topics, but guess what, we are all struck here together, so let’s just make the best of what life has to offer..Peace!
That’s jwbe’s point. This country is steeped in cultural, institutional and systemic racism that privileges all whites. Sure, there are some whites who’re more violent than others towards people of color. And some whites who’re more vocal in their beliefs in white superiority. But any white person who accepts the status quo is complicit of condoning white supremacy. -That’s why those Creek women were forcibly sterilized. Not because they were poor, though that may have been a small part of the cause, but because they’re not white.
Mom posted: Ask Germans, lol What does that mean?
JWBE is a white, German female. Yet, you rushed to assumption/stereotype that she was not White… the same way you assumed most/all posters who have engaged you in this thread as well as most/all regular contributors/posters to be “YOUNG college african american students” when its clear to anyone who has took the time to notice vs. function-off-of-stereotypes would know better. But your pre-conceived notion, your stereotype, explains one of your curious, Twilight Zone statements:
“You know, Nquest, it does work both ways…”
This is also proof that you most certainly do “follow the social norms.” For it’s as if you do read from the same attitudinal script as other WHITES in your socio-economic class? Whatever it is, there is a whole group/class of Whites who respond to discussions on race/racism in the same incoherent, self-contradictory, quick to call somebody else racist (and quick to play the victim and quick to avoid actually engaging substantive issues) just like you.
Just like you, there is a whole group of WHITES who can’t be “bothered” with addressing points that counter theirs. And, just like you, there is a whole group of WHITES who like to play little lying games where they pretend to be something they are not because of some real deep sh*t somebody needs to explore because the sickness is almost epidemic.
JWBE and I have posted on the same boards/blogs in several places on the Internet and your type of kiddie little game gets played and its almost always by someone, like you, who isn’t clever enough to pull it off.
But here’s your chance to prove me wrong. Your comment about the “tons of people” you know who say this site is “extremely racist” gives the impression (at least from my experience) that this is not the only place online where you post comments. Surely you’ve had the opportunity to share with those “tons of people” your thoughts the same way you’ve shared your thoughts here. So, please drop a link and tell us when and where you’ve shared your thoughts about the kind of class struggle or class solidarity idea… you know, you’re “solution” with “tons of people” who appear to be like-minded — i.e. they obviously share your curious view that this blog is “racist.”
Do that or just admit that you’re a fake. Your comment — “To be honest, I truly don’t believe that there is any such thing as racist.” — already makes a mockery of your odd “assurance.”
i want you all to know that i am a “white” male and that i am in no way denying that black americans have been discriminated against in this country, HOWEVER,
first of all, the fact that the black people on this site even separate themselves from other races is the foundation of racism, it is a FACT that the black people on here, especially NQUEST, are indeed racist as hell.
i hear very little talk of unity among races from you guys it all seems to be a bunch of finger pointing and racist propaganda toward ALL races except blacks.
notice i say blacks and not african americans because your not african your american just like the rest of us. this is not a democratic site at ALL, its a trap for you educated but highly RACIST blacks to crucify all races that get on here especially whites. you’re having too much fun bashing “whitey” to give two damns about TRUE racial equality. so heres what i truly feel about you…
instead of complaining about due reparations you should be more active about influencing your own race in a positive way because for godsake they need it.
and by the way, billions of dollars worth of welfare checks and food stamps should be reparation enough.
everyone knows that blacks are THE laziest race in this country, there is absolutely no arguing that so dont even try! LOL!
you should stop writing on this blog and start a new website condemning rap music for a start. it is hands down the worst influence on your race, just LOOK at all these black kids with their pants sagging off their asses and tshirts that hang to their ankles! LOL!!!! rap music glorifies being ghetto, let me repeat that so it sinks in, rap music glorifies being GHETTO! how ignorant can you be? “shoot a mo fo, f dese ho’s, smoke bud and sell drugs in da club!” give me a break people!!!!!
next, start a school that teaches blacks to speak PROPER english. why in the world would you think its “cool” to speak ebonics? the first thing foreigners that want to be successful in america do is learn english, not change it out of pure laziness! blacks have been here for hundreds of years and still cant speak well! what up wit dat?
you blame all your problems on the “white” man. EVERYONE is SO sick of that “the white man holds me down” BS! did white men cause the jails to fill up with blacks? did the white man make them do all these crimes and drugs? no. do police target blacks? cuz i know thats your only rebuttal, and the answer is hell yes they do and why shouldnt they? if you werent doing anything wrong in the first place whats the problem? GEEZ! how simple is that?
next, if its so bad here then why do we have a black president? wait, he is half white so it doesnt count right? you know damn well its not that bad here or you’d all be back in africa by now! stop complaining PLEASE! just teach your race to shut up and work hard like everyone else.
your race is for the most part a burden on our society and until you target changing, all these stupid blogs dont mean a thing. you think youre “black activists” but whats active about sitting on your ass developing carpel-tunnel syndrome? youre not changing a thing or winning anyone over with youre hate, youre making things worse in fact. i havent seen you agree with ANYONE elses views on this whole site!
i know youre gonna say im a racist, but then isnt everyone according to you guys? what differnce does it make, i dont have to prove to you im not racist, i am simply an observer and this is my opinion.
the moral of my story is that i do feel bad for those children that were kicked out of that pool, HOWEVER, if the black race had spent as much time working on their social image and behavior as they do complaining about how bad they have it, it would never have happened.
you blame all your problems on the “white” man.
two thumbs down to Joseph.
youre not changing a thing or winning anyone over
More stupidity = these bs assumptions that there’s some attempt to “win” people/you over…
what differnce does it make, i dont have to prove to you im not racist
And there you have it. The very reason why I called your “winning people over” statement bs. Or actually, its the idea that you’re the needy type, someone who wants to feel important, needed… the bs notion that “the black race” has to prove something to you to “win you over”… Well, that’s as stupid as this statement of yours:
first of all, the fact that the black people on this site even separate themselves from other races is the foundation of racism
Hmm…. the ABOUT US page lists Joe R. Feagin and Jessie Daniels as the founders of this site complete with links to webpages with their pictures.
While I know it must be exhilarating to get a chance to finally get say all the stuff you’ve been wanting to say to/about Black people if you just had the chance… at least make the bs you sound like you know what the f-ck you’re talking. I mean, why ruin a good rant with a dumb-azz assumption destroys the credibility or compelling or appropriate commentary/opinion you think you have by swinging so wild and missing by that much?
“at least make the bs you [say] sound like you know that the f-ck you’re talking” @ Joseph
“this is not a democratic site at ALL, its a trap for you educated but highly RACIST blacks to crucify all races that get on here especially whites.”
Read: Hi, my name is Joseph, I’m a “white” male and I’m a “crucified” (i.e. hurt, wounded) victim.
I don’t want to talk to you anymore..As mentioned before, you are mean and nasty person.
If you look at life in a more spiritual perspective then you would understand the meaning of ” Woe for the many souls who do not feel this spiritual connection, which is called collective conscience, or collective intelligence..Which means, not everybody feels a connection with humanity as a whole, which includes, people of all race…And, there is such thing as collective conscience and collective intelligence…My pain, is your pain, and your pain, is my pain…Every time we as human beings suffer pain it hurts all of us in some small way.. This is true, or we would not be having a discussion about discrimination..My joy, is your joy, and your joy, is my joy..This is true, every time we experience joy people tend to be happier, and more apt to keep an open mind. And, that goes into our collective conscience and or collective intelligence..These are my feelings about this, and my feelings result to the topic of unconditional love….Unconditional love is the kind of love that allows a person to look beyond the material and physical, and love that beautiful spirit, which God has intended for us to do..So, you see, not everybody, feels the same, and I do not write on blogs of other internet sites..And, I do know a lot of people because I am friendly to most everybody I meet..Some people are just not friendly, so I don’t bother with them, (which is called turning the other cheek). I treat people according to how I’m treated, and as mentioned, before, I have friends from all walks of live…Don’t care about social norms, or I would not be talking to you…THINK!!!
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