Comments on: Senator Obama’s Critique of Black Fathers: Playing to the White Frame? http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/ Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:55:24 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Seattle in Texas http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-4454 Seattle in Texas Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:43:10 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-4454 I was just reading this bit of news from Yahoo and it took me back to both this post and Andre's thoughts above on the speech Obama gave. I happened to think Andre was hitting very close to where Obama was coming from. This is a selfish nation centered upon greed and cut-throat competition--nobody is going to help others or watch out for their best interest unless there is a vested interest in it for them of course... (some will, but very few and they are rare in my opinion). Plus, this is a nation that swims in Free Will ideology, which essentially justifies the injustices through blaming the victim. While I am not a Free Will advocate by any means, I do believe people can change the course of their future and our future as a nation though minor decisions and actions, etc. regardless of who insigificant they may seem (and with many--collective action and/or resistance is very powerful). But while the article focuses on religion, politics, etc., this brief section is related to the discussion above: "He preached individual responsibility, saying he knew he risked criticism for 'blaming the victim' by talking of the need for parents to help children with homework and turn off the TV, to pass on a healthy self-image to daughters, and teach boys both to respect women and 'realize that responsibility does not end at conception.' But Obama's main message was the government's duty to address what he said are "moral problems" — such as war, poverty, joblessness, homelessness, violent streets and crumbling schools — and to employ religious institutions to do it. 'As long as we're not doing everything in our individual and collective power to solve the challenges we face, the conscience of our nation cannot rest,' he said." from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080706/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AovxtKYO2cAo2BvzWEZ6cIas0NUE My own small criticism and concern of the excerpt above is with relation to having religious insitutions responsible for employing change, etc. But this is a whole different discussion.... However, this article in general a prime example of how he is trying to combat doubt and fears related to the Muslim rumors (so very sad both for he and our Muslim communities--as while he is a Christian, I do not believe he is anti-Muslim). But at the same time, he is providing genuine assurance that their own religion and beliefs are not, and will not be in any way, jeapordized, and they too will have a moral place and fundamental role in making this nation a better place, etc. A whole different topic.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080706/ap_on_el_pr/obama; I was just reading this bit of news from Yahoo and it took me back to both this post and Andre’s thoughts above on the speech Obama gave. I happened to think Andre was hitting very close to where Obama was coming from. This is a selfish nation centered upon greed and cut-throat competition–nobody is going to help others or watch out for their best interest unless there is a vested interest in it for them of course… (some will, but very few and they are rare in my opinion). Plus, this is a nation that swims in Free Will ideology, which essentially justifies the injustices through blaming the victim. While I am not a Free Will advocate by any means, I do believe people can change the course of their future and our future as a nation though minor decisions and actions, etc. regardless of who insigificant they may seem (and with many–collective action and/or resistance is very powerful). But while the article focuses on religion, politics, etc., this brief section is related to the discussion above:

“He preached individual responsibility, saying he knew he risked criticism for ‘blaming the victim’ by talking of the need for parents to help children with homework and turn off the TV, to pass on a healthy self-image to daughters, and teach boys both to respect women and ‘realize that responsibility does not end at conception.’ But Obama’s main message was the government’s duty to address what he said are “moral problems” — such as war, poverty, joblessness, homelessness, violent streets and crumbling schools — and to employ religious institutions to do it. ‘As long as we’re not doing everything in our individual and collective power to solve the challenges we face, the conscience of our nation cannot rest,’ he said.” from: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080706/ap_on_el_pr/obama;_ylt=AovxtKYO2cAo2BvzWEZ6cIas0NUE

My own small criticism and concern of the excerpt above is with relation to having religious insitutions responsible for employing change, etc. But this is a whole different discussion…. However, this article in general a prime example of how he is trying to combat doubt and fears related to the Muslim rumors (so very sad both for he and our Muslim communities–as while he is a Christian, I do not believe he is anti-Muslim). But at the same time, he is providing genuine assurance that their own religion and beliefs are not, and will not be in any way, jeapordized, and they too will have a moral place and fundamental role in making this nation a better place, etc. A whole different topic….

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080706/ap_on_el_pr/obama;

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]]> By: Seattle in Texas http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-4030 Seattle in Texas Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:45:37 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-4030 ...and I am pretty hard core "pro choice" meaning women should have equal access to abortion, but they should also have the equal right to make the choice to keep her child without social class coming in the way of that decision...when disporportionately women of color are encouraged to abort and/or undergo "exploratory" but so-called "safe" birth control, etc., to prevent pregnancy--it's that's no different than eugenics as far as I'm concerned. And then to blame and shame those that do decide to keep their babies? Shame on those that shame! Just the same when any argument is made that concerns when "who" should and shouldn't have children--there are very few cases and circumstances I would actually agree. I think our society needs to change. And age was brought up earlier--I've known single teenage parents who were outstanding mothers (and in some cases fathers when they were around and/or involved) and women who have been married and had children in their later years who were terrible parents and hated parenting...and what about the wealthier folks who don't even parent their own children and hire other people to do it for them (I've only known white folks who do this though--maybe there's others, I just haven't seen it)? Those children grow up with pretty much absent parents too and that's acceptable? And the wealthier parents who hire other people to raise their own children get the credit for being "good" parents? Hmmmm, I don't buy it. What "good" is is subjective and dominated by eurocentric and ethnocentric beliefs--anything outside of that is "abnormal" or "bad" or "dysfunctional", etc. , which is necessarily and inherently racist in and of itself.... Done. …and I am pretty hard core “pro choice” meaning women should have equal access to abortion, but they should also have the equal right to make the choice to keep her child without social class coming in the way of that decision…when disporportionately women of color are encouraged to abort and/or undergo “exploratory” but so-called “safe” birth control, etc., to prevent pregnancy–it’s that’s no different than eugenics as far as I’m concerned. And then to blame and shame those that do decide to keep their babies? Shame on those that shame! Just the same when any argument is made that concerns when “who” should and shouldn’t have children–there are very few cases and circumstances I would actually agree. I think our society needs to change. And age was brought up earlier–I’ve known single teenage parents who were outstanding mothers (and in some cases fathers when they were around and/or involved) and women who have been married and had children in their later years who were terrible parents and hated parenting…and what about the wealthier folks who don’t even parent their own children and hire other people to do it for them (I’ve only known white folks who do this though–maybe there’s others, I just haven’t seen it)? Those children grow up with pretty much absent parents too and that’s acceptable? And the wealthier parents who hire other people to raise their own children get the credit for being “good” parents? Hmmmm, I don’t buy it. What “good” is is subjective and dominated by eurocentric and ethnocentric beliefs–anything outside of that is “abnormal” or “bad” or “dysfunctional”, etc. , which is necessarily and inherently racist in and of itself…. Done.

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]]> By: Seattle in Texas http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-4029 Seattle in Texas Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:19:49 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-4029 Eric, still jamming out both musically and politically while waiting for your better tune...where's it at? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQyiCf8Gvjc I have thoughts on the post by Ryan and agree with only a part of it. But the two questions that stand out the most at this very moment are, why it is assumed black women are only limited to dating black men? (not to discount or dismiss the many historical and contemporary injustices black men face every single day, etc. because that point is one I agree with) And two, why should marriage necessarily be put before motherhood? This is suggesting single parents or other types of families that can't get married are some how inadequate and/or inferior and the traditional family model is superior. Furthermore, it seems to imply that children born into homes with only one parent or where the home was broken up later are mistakes...no child is a mistake, though our society does seem to imply that in many ways by stigmatizing broken and single parent families. Why can't the government re-distribute the wealth and allow all folks to have an opportunity to live a decent and healthy life? The questions could continue.... I know you were critiquing Obama, but I am curious about a couple of the underlying assumptions you are relying on to critique him. If the government is supposed to be like a parent to her people, that parent is failing terribly too. Eric, still jamming out both musically and politically while waiting for your better tune…where’s it at? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQyiCf8Gvjc

I have thoughts on the post by Ryan and agree with only a part of it. But the two questions that stand out the most at this very moment are, why it is assumed black women are only limited to dating black men? (not to discount or dismiss the many historical and contemporary injustices black men face every single day, etc. because that point is one I agree with) And two, why should marriage necessarily be put before motherhood? This is suggesting single parents or other types of families that can’t get married are some how inadequate and/or inferior and the traditional family model is superior. Furthermore, it seems to imply that children born into homes with only one parent or where the home was broken up later are mistakes…no child is a mistake, though our society does seem to imply that in many ways by stigmatizing broken and single parent families. Why can’t the government re-distribute the wealth and allow all folks to have an opportunity to live a decent and healthy life? The questions could continue…. I know you were critiquing Obama, but I am curious about a couple of the underlying assumptions you are relying on to critique him. If the government is supposed to be like a parent to her people, that parent is failing terribly too.

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]]> By: Ryon http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-4004 Ryon Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:42:40 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-4004 Hey Everyone, We still have to remember the following... First, there's a 2.2:1 female to male ratio in the black community. If we begin to factor in personal choices, education, and sexuality alone, the ratio is even higher. So, unless black women do not want children, then the black community will always have a high amount of single parent families. Second, (again) Obama ignores the fact that lower class women (black and white) are intentionally putting motherhood before marriage (http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9733.php and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/marriage/interviews/edin.html). Third, Obama was too dismissive of the structural impediments that black men face. For example, history shows us that blacks have largely been the victims of inadequate school systems, right? Well, prior to 1960, they (black males especially) could rely on manufacturing industries for solid, well paying employment....employment that was crucial to their self esteem and ability to provide for their families. Since the 1970s, and really after NAFTA, those jobs have moved overseas with no suitable employment to replace these positions. And, for Obama to make that speech on one day, and then the next day say, "oh, yeah...I really didnt mean all that stuff I said about NAFTA....it aint really that bad" is troubling....very very troubling. That make better sense? Hey Everyone,

We still have to remember the following…

First, there’s a 2.2:1 female to male ratio in the black community. If we begin to factor in personal choices, education, and sexuality alone, the ratio is even higher. So, unless black women do not want children, then the black community will always have a high amount of single parent families.

Second, (again) Obama ignores the fact that lower class women (black and white) are intentionally putting motherhood before marriage (http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9733.php and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/marriage/interviews/edin.html).

Third, Obama was too dismissive of the structural impediments that black men face. For example, history shows us that blacks have largely been the victims of inadequate school systems, right? Well, prior to 1960, they (black males especially) could rely on manufacturing industries for solid, well paying employment….employment that was crucial to their self esteem and ability to provide for their families. Since the 1970s, and really after NAFTA, those jobs have moved overseas with no suitable employment to replace these positions.

And, for Obama to make that speech on one day, and then the next day say, “oh, yeah…I really didnt mean all that stuff I said about NAFTA….it aint really that bad” is troubling….very very troubling.

That make better sense?

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]]> By: Andre http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3999 Andre Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:33:39 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3999 Hi Ryon, <blockquote>We must remember that greed, capitalism, and racism knows no color, gender, or class.</blockquote> I'll bite. Admittedly, B.E.T. is usually the red herring upon whom I like to cast blame. Well, that and George Bush. But ultimately, you're right: black folks aren't the driving force behind some of the nonsense you see on B.E.T. even if seeing nothing but black faces on the station would suggest otherwise. Besides that, the revenue generated from the junk on that station is not just from the viewership of us. It's a product of national...nay, international marketing segments. That said, I withdraw my B.E.T. shot. Still (and getting back to the ultimate point of this post), when we examine the state of black America: I stick to my guns in thinking that an introspective look at ourselves is just as critical to the discussion as examining structural racism is. So -- in Sen. Obama's defense -- airing dirty laundry can be a necessary thing if it leads to self-empowerment. Hi Ryon,

We must remember that greed, capitalism, and racism knows no color, gender, or class.

I’ll bite. Admittedly, B.E.T. is usually the red herring upon whom I like to cast blame. Well, that and George Bush. But ultimately, you’re right: black folks aren’t the driving force behind some of the nonsense you see on B.E.T. even if seeing nothing but black faces on the station would suggest otherwise. Besides that, the revenue generated from the junk on that station is not just from the viewership of us. It’s a product of national…nay, international marketing segments. That said, I withdraw my B.E.T. shot.

Still (and getting back to the ultimate point of this post), when we examine the state of black America: I stick to my guns in thinking that an introspective look at ourselves is just as critical to the discussion as examining structural racism is. So — in Sen. Obama’s defense — airing dirty laundry can be a necessary thing if it leads to self-empowerment.

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]]> By: Seattle in Texas http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3993 Seattle in Texas Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:53:17 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3993 Shug, I see where you are coming from and generally stay away from the Israeli type stuff. But I realized that it might have seemed as though my thoughts on Obama were directed at your post and they weren't--I tend to write in block style and it just doesn't work too well on here so I apologize if it seemed the second part was speaking to you directly. How people vote makes no difference to me. But keep sharing your thoughts, even if others see things differently, or the same. Andre, I follow what you are saying...and Glenn, I see your points too.... Hmmm, the election is pretty much right around the corner so we shall see and much work to do in the meantime.... Shug, I see where you are coming from and generally stay away from the Israeli type stuff. But I realized that it might have seemed as though my thoughts on Obama were directed at your post and they weren’t–I tend to write in block style and it just doesn’t work too well on here so I apologize if it seemed the second part was speaking to you directly. How people vote makes no difference to me. But keep sharing your thoughts, even if others see things differently, or the same. Andre, I follow what you are saying…and Glenn, I see your points too…. Hmmm, the election is pretty much right around the corner so we shall see and much work to do in the meantime….

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]]> By: Ryon http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3992 Ryon Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:08:54 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3992 Hi Everyone, Great choices (i.e., going to college, landing a great internship, etc.) are oftentimes the results of more than one option. Unfortunately, poor blacks (and its important to distinguish them from middle class and upper middle class blacks) have never/do not/and unfortunately, will never have those types of options. Andre, you argue that BET and a culture of poverty is largely responsible for the social ills that affect black america. My response: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x45pi5_boondocks-hunger-strike-against-bet_politics. We must remember that greed, capitalism, and racism knows no color, gender, or class. rjc Hi Everyone,

Great choices (i.e., going to college, landing a great internship, etc.) are oftentimes the results of more than one option. Unfortunately, poor blacks (and its important to distinguish them from middle class and upper middle class blacks) have never/do not/and unfortunately, will never have those types of options.

Andre, you argue that BET and a culture of poverty is largely responsible for the social ills that affect black america. My response: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x45pi5_boondocks-hunger-strike-against-bet_politics.

We must remember that greed, capitalism, and racism knows no color, gender, or class.

rjc

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]]> By: Glenn B. http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3988 Glenn B. Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:30:55 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3988 Dr. Feagin et al., Please forgive me for coming late to the party. The website is fabulous and I am glad to now be a part of it. As for the Obama speech. I am as infuriated as any of you. Obama is not ignorant of any of our points. He and his staff are exceptionally aware and capable. That is part of what is so disturbing about this latest installment of this type of rhetoric. Even more frustraiting is that this speech was a calculated effort to improve his standing among white conservatives, especially white men. This is very disappointing for several reasons. First, I do not believe that 400 years worth of black ancestors and liberation fighters struggled just to see the first black president criticize the black community just to get in better with whites. Secondly, if race sacrificing (i.e. sacrificing black communal interests to unite and promote the interests of white policymakers - Derrick Bell, Silent Covenants, 2004) is one of Obama's preferred means for advancing his policies and/or legacy, that does not bode well for people of color in this country. I am very hopeful for the Obama presidency, and I am glad to use whatever influence I can muster to make it happen. I hope and trust he is willing to use his much greater influence to benefit the racially and otherwise oppressed in meaningful ways. Dr. Feagin et al.,

Please forgive me for coming late to the party. The website is fabulous and I am glad to now be a part of it.

As for the Obama speech. I am as infuriated as any of you. Obama is not ignorant of any of our points. He and his staff are exceptionally aware and capable. That is part of what is so disturbing about this latest installment of this type of rhetoric.

Even more frustraiting is that this speech was a calculated effort to improve his standing among white conservatives, especially white men.

This is very disappointing for several reasons. First, I do not believe that 400 years worth of black ancestors and liberation fighters struggled just to see the first black president criticize the black community just to get in better with whites.

Secondly, if race sacrificing (i.e. sacrificing black communal interests to unite and promote the interests of white policymakers – Derrick Bell, Silent Covenants, 2004) is one of Obama’s preferred means for advancing his policies and/or legacy, that does not bode well for people of color in this country.

I am very hopeful for the Obama presidency, and I am glad to use whatever influence I can muster to make it happen. I hope and trust he is willing to use his much greater influence to benefit the racially and otherwise oppressed in meaningful ways.

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]]> By: Andre http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3985 Andre Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:10:06 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3985 I understand why we black folks are sensitive to criticism about our lifestyles; albeit constructive. When analyses and cultural criticisms appear to be unbalanced and conveniently discount social, economic, and political deficiencies that create the problem, the 'victim' tends to get more offended when the blame is placed squarely on them. The unfortunate consequence of this type of critical analysis from Obama -- though somewhat on point -- is that it can get lost if it isn't balanced by an understanding and an appreciation of the systemic problems (indiscriminate arrests and sentencing, inequities in pay, etc.) that contribute just as much to this plight. I get that. Still, I think that critics of Obama should stop and really listen to the message he was trying to convey; regardless to how poor and incomplete the delivery might be. Being a child whose father bailed on him, I can see why he internalizes this so much. Besides that, I think he's ultimately saying that some of the self-destructive behavior we engage in contributes to the disintegration of the Black family just as much as the other nefarious forces that exist in this society. It's no longer Jim Crowism. Now it's B.E.T. It's no longer the Klan terrorizing black folks. Now it's young black teenagers. It's no longer the racist power structure that works assiduously to keep blacks out of college. We're the ones voluntarily dropping out of high school. Simply put, in many cases, we're the ones self-imposing things that threaten our advancement and indeed our very survival. Rather than painting black folks as sad and pathetic victims of circumstance, Obama's speech (at least I think) seeks to empower us to control our own lives. He lays out a challenge for parents to play a more active role in determining how their children are raised. Further, the way I see it is that he's trying to urge us to be more actively engaged in promoting our OWN development. Frankly, I see nothing about as being Uncle Tom-ish. If anything, I'd say he's using his "bully pulpit" in a responsible and necessary manner. I'm just sayin... I understand why we black folks are sensitive to criticism about our lifestyles; albeit constructive. When analyses and cultural criticisms appear to be unbalanced and conveniently discount social, economic, and political deficiencies that create the problem, the ‘victim’ tends to get more offended when the blame is placed squarely on them. The unfortunate consequence of this type of critical analysis from Obama — though somewhat on point — is that it can get lost if it isn’t balanced by an understanding and an appreciation of the systemic problems (indiscriminate arrests and sentencing, inequities in pay, etc.) that contribute just as much to this plight. I get that.

Still, I think that critics of Obama should stop and really listen to the message he was trying to convey; regardless to how poor and incomplete the delivery might be. Being a child whose father bailed on him, I can see why he internalizes this so much. Besides that, I think he’s ultimately saying that some of the self-destructive behavior we engage in contributes to the disintegration of the Black family just as much as the other nefarious forces that exist in this society. It’s no longer Jim Crowism. Now it’s B.E.T. It’s no longer the Klan terrorizing black folks. Now it’s young black teenagers. It’s no longer the racist power structure that works assiduously to keep blacks out of college. We’re the ones voluntarily dropping out of high school. Simply put, in many cases, we’re the ones self-imposing things that threaten our advancement and indeed our very survival.

Rather than painting black folks as sad and pathetic victims of circumstance, Obama’s speech (at least I think) seeks to empower us to control our own lives. He lays out a challenge for parents to play a more active role in determining how their children are raised. Further, the way I see it is that he’s trying to urge us to be more actively engaged in promoting our OWN development. Frankly, I see nothing about as being Uncle Tom-ish. If anything, I’d say he’s using his “bully pulpit” in a responsible and necessary manner.

I’m just sayin…

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]]> By: Shug http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2008/06/15/senator-obamas-critique-of-black-fathers-playing-to-the-white-frame/comment-page-1/#comment-3984 Shug Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:42:26 +0000 http://www.racismreview.com/blog/?p=326#comment-3984 Seattle it's hard to call.... I don't give any politician black or white.. I'm not saying you guys shouldn't criticize or analyze .. just reminding all of us that our kids are DYING IN THE STREETS for lack of guidance from their fathers.. this is truth. far as obama .. i don't know.. i'm more jolted when he stands before AIPAC and declares that Jerusalem should be part of an undivided Isreal. Re-building the temple anyone??? but i know the whole point of this blog is racism lol Seattle it’s hard to call….

I don’t give any politician black or white.. I’m not saying you guys shouldn’t criticize or analyze .. just reminding all of us that our kids are DYING IN THE STREETS for lack of guidance from their fathers.. this is truth.

far as obama .. i don’t know.. i’m more jolted when he stands before AIPAC and declares that Jerusalem should be part of an undivided Isreal.

Re-building the temple anyone???

but i know the whole point of this blog is racism lol

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